Former Auschwitz guard Reinhold Hanning convicted
A 94-year-old former guard at the Auschwitz death camp has been sentenced to five years in jail.
Reinhold Hanning was found guilty of being an accessory to the murder of at least 170,000 people.
He was an SS guard at Auschwitz from 1942 to 1944. He has said he knew what was going on at the camp.
The Nazis killed about 1.1 million people - mostly Jews - at Auschwitz in occupied southern Poland.
The verdict came after a trial lasting nearly four months in the western German city of Detmold.
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As long he was following the orders, what really happened is not his responsibility to take a fall on.
I mean seriously, this is just a publicity stunt or something. People are using him to their own ends.
Oh, about time, I'd say.
Talk about beating a dead horse.
Given the number of threads like this, I'd say German cops are great at catching 90 year old Nazi soldiers and shit at catching gang rapists, apparently.
So, Germany is using their money and time very wisely. What's more useful than capturing almost dead Nazi's for publicity when you're currently going through a migrant crisis.
Well, the guy's gonna be dead soon and he was probably following orders, it's in the past now but i'll respond with these....
These seem to be happening a lot lately...
The entire point of Criminal Punishment and prisons is to rehabilitate citizens who are a danger to society. "NOT" to punish. At least according to most prison systems in the developed world. Issue is this man lived 70 years as a model citizen and has proven not to be a danger to society. He was a child when Nazi's took power. He lived under massive Nazi propaganda and brain washing. There is no justice putting this man in prison.
If they have no evidence to prove he harmed the hair of a single person, and I mean real evidence, not just that he was THERE, and are accusing him of wrong doing through association just like that last guard they put in prison... it should be a crime to put this man in prison.. and the entire justice system in Germany has to be put into question.
I think it is because in Germany any form of hate speech is against the law. To claim that an ethnic or religious minority is responsible for any major crime is border line hate speech. Police, and Public officials pretty much have to hold their tongues or waltz around with their wording out of fear of breaking the law. In turn, they often just keep quiet about it and go about doing their jobs as best they can. It is the price Germany pays in their attempts to "quash" their past. Even after Denazification, there are a lot of people in Germany who are basically still die heart National Socialist. It's tragically the reasoning for such strict laws to keep "Their" voice down. Issue is there are National Socialist all across Europe, not just Germany, but Germany takes extremes to silence them. Which causes Germany to often sound....... weak, if not a bit pathetic when situations like you mention arise.
This is quite possibly the most pointless court case I have ever seen. And I've watched Judge Judy.
Tell that to USA. They happily give lifetime sentences to someone who did a crime as 13 years old by simply being in a wrong place (yeah and them being black is somehow just "coincidence".)
Ideally it's not about just "punishment" but the reality often doesn't meet with that. People who get out tend to go back in, no matter of country due they are not "rehabilitated" because they don't even seriously try to help them.
What really keeps them not doing crimes again is that the prisons are hells due other nut jobs who want to kill you there by simply looking at their direction. Essentially a fear keeps them in society rather than in there.
many of the nazis were forced to follow orders or be killed as well the guy is 96 years old its really pointless
Hey Germany, we get it, you aren't Nazi'fied anymore.
Germany. Truth and reconciliation councils! Ever heard of em'?
That would make a hell of a lot more sense than trials, at this point.
Should merge this with the other thread and call it "The Pointless Trials Thread".
Well the issue is, Nazi war criminals within Germany are legally not given fair trials. According to the German Government all Concentration Camp guards are guilty, as all guards are participants in murder counting what time they served in a particular camp if that camp partakes in such hainious crimes. To claim your own innocents as a Guard in such a case is tantamount of denying official German stance on the holocaust and in itself is considered Holocaust Denial which is against the law and can be taken into account to further you prison sentence as you're now breaking another law. They're not even given lawyers that will defend them either as the lawyers themselves know trying to claim said person's innocent is border line, even for the lawyers involved to Denial. This in turn can even end up causing the lawyers to be charged with denial, which can lead to steep penalties, and perhaps even jail time for the lawyers.
Because of this ever since West Germany and now Germany has been allowed to hold it's own war crimes trials, no concentration camp guards who are accused are ever given a reasonably fair trial. In turn the only defense they're allowed is to Plead Guilty. If they refuse, and try to claim their innocence they often face considerably steeper punishment as I said it's considered denial. This is why you can look up just about every trial within Germany from the 1960s to now and it's almost always "Pleaded Guilty, Claimed Duress." Almost without acceptation. During the Belzic, Treblinka, and Sobibor Trials those who gave testimonies were given lesser prison terms, those who accept guilt without testimony were given shorter prison terms, those who claimed their innocence and stood by it to the end saw life in prison sentences.
In short they're automatically guilty before they even step foot in the court room. Some guards who were tried during the Nuremberg war crimes trials by the Allies have even been brought to court again this time under the German Government and retried for the same crimes sometimes in which they were acquitted under the Allies. Often without any new evidence.
But refusing to follow orders would also have been crime likely punishable by death due Hitler was in charge.
Basically the soldiers would have been put to situation where they either.
Considering what you claim is very likely true, it means that Germany's legal system sucks in that regard. In many countries the people don't really "choose" if they take a part in the war if they're middle of it and deemed fit to be in an army. Especially not in Nazi Germany. Desertion back then would have been too much gamble especially if you're in a guard duty that is theoretically relatively safe and you have no idea who's likely going to win.
It is called Appeasement. Make the world, and Germans believe the Government actually cares. Most people are taught from a young age that if someone is wearing those SS lightning bolts on their collar that they're utterly and absolutely evil. So who cares if a 90+ year old Nazi is thrown in jail? I believe that is why they do it. It isn't justice, far from it, but not enough people will complain, and for political reasons you can say "Look how much effort Germany will go through to Punish Nazis." In the eyes of the international community.
Good example of how dehumanized they are to our eyes. Watch the short movie series Generations War. Only major SS character in the entire production is made out to be so evil... so inhuman that he likely steps on a box of kittens after burning down an orphanage every morning. It was that bad.
You guys are lovely. If they'd have find Hitler alive, you would repeat - pointless case, waste of time and beating dead horse.
It's so simple when someone else lost family member far away in Europe.
Revenge isn't the same thing as Justice. You're really wanting to put a 90+ year old man in prison a man that they have ZERO evidence that he ever conducted a single real crime other than just "being" there? That isn't justice, a logical person would say even if he is guilty which we do not know, we have no evidence to prove his is guilty so we can not. That is justice. Putting this man in prison just out of association is not justice, it's pure flat out hate and revenge.
I had a late Grandfather, who fought against the Japanese in WWII, lost a number of friends, and killed many Japanese in the process. He was overly proud of it. He was also so filled with hatred that he took it to his grave. He hated everything, and I mean everything Asian, anything that would remotely remind him of the Japanese.
My other Grandfather fought in Korea against the North Koreans, and the Chinese. He had a similar hatred. That hatred vanished when my aunt married my now Chinese Uncle in law. He had a chance to meet his parents, and some of his relatives. He went from having a similar hatred, to welcoming them as family, wondering when "Ronny's" parents would next visit. When he passed, I prayed he went without the same hatred my other grandfather had.
So saying that, this man lived the past 70 years without being an evil man. The word redemption comes into play personally. When someone who would of once been considered evil, by his own actions since has proven to be a fine citizen and should be treated as such.
Another one who has no idea what KL were, or doesn't want to know. "Kameraden" after all.
Henning joined was a member of the Totenkopf, Death's Head division. one of the most notorious SS units. Joined as a volunteer in first year of the war. Januray 1943 was transferred to Auschwitz - FABRIC OF DEATH. Place where people were gassed, forced to work, died from hunger, or were killed in other horrible way. Regular people, old people and kids. It wasn't frontline so don't recall your grandfathers. Auschwitz was extermination camp and Henning was part of this machinery, guarded tens of thousands of mostly Jewish prisoners arriving on the notorious "ramp", where selection took place - live or die. He's guilty as hell.
It doesn't matter he lived "70 years without being an evil man". Doesn't matter he's 90, 100 or 150. He has to answer for what he did. This is JUSTICE. I don't believe they'll send him to jail, Nuremberg trials were a fiction. But they must remind him - it wasn't war adventure or duty, he participated in gigantic crime. Old age won't save you, Henning, at least you won't sleep well.
Issue is the Totenkopf was the 3rd SS Panzer Division. a Combat Division. Which in itself did partake in a few crimes. But issue of that being a lot of Wehrmacht Divisions as well as other SS Divisions have their fair share of crimes as well. Only reason Totenkopf is so well known is that it because of it's insignia which was the Death's Head. Issue being Death's Head was the official insignia of the SS in general, but the Totenkopf name had existed as a military insignia by around a dozen nations across Europe for hundreds of years. Even Poland in 1939 had a Death's Head Cavalry Regiment. It's pure myth this particular Division was considerably more brutal. as the list of crimes performed by it are not that extreme when compared to war crimes committed during the war itself by armies and divisions on all fronts. If it wasn't for it's name we likely would view it the same as other divisions with a few side notes of crimes it committed, like other divisions.
The issue of the matter is Mr Hanning seems to have been issued a Wounded Badge. So i'm curious to why he ended up being transferred, likely being he was considered unfit for front line duty in his Division? But Tragically we're not being told anything outside of petty stereotypical bull crap. Even the "Witness" Testimony they brought in didn't accused Hanning directly but just described the horrors of the camp. But I'm curious what the other witness' they're are saying they're bringing in are going to say. Hopefully not the same garbage as the first... if so, they will only have conjecture, not a real case.
It wasn't regular combat division. Most of the SS Totenkopf initial enlisted men were SS concentration camp guards (SS-Totenkopfverbände). Scum. That was the core. Those man were indoctrinated by their leader KL Inspector Theodor Eicke, fanatical nazi. Division is called one of most effective fightning formations on eastern front because it's leaders didn't care about soldiers life. Losses were high. That's why 3rd SS had to be rebuild many times. Most applies for transfer to another unit also came from Totenkopf soldiers.
Le Paradis massacre of british soldiers is well known but members of the division committed much more war crimes on eastern front. One of most brutal and infamous formation.
Wounded SS soldiers or those on holiday leave served in concentrations camp. It was common. Esp. for Totenkopf soldiers.
That being said most SS within the concentration camp program wanted out of it and cried for field assignment. There was no promotion, no advancement as a full time concentration camp commandant or guard, and some just hated being there to begin with and preferred front line duty.
I never said I didn't agree with you on the Totenkopf's crimes, but most SS divisions were fanatical. Most were all volunteer units, and the SS in general suffered the highest lose rates among most German combat units as well as the highest lose rate among Commissioned Officers as well. Most German divisions had some crimes under their belts as well. Even the famed Fallschirmjager were responsible for a series of mass shootings toward Civilians in Greece and Italy for example, and they're highly respected among military historians.
As I already said, if they have no evidence to directly link Mr Hanning to any direct crimes outside of just "Being there." Then technically he isn't guilty of any crimes. That is the entire problem with the case. I already mentioned the possibility that he may be guilty but without any concrete evidence to prove it it is nothing but conjecture.
Reinhold Hanning
The main problem with this is not about if it's right or not to put in prison, but the time it took to german justice to "catch" and judge him.
In a lazy german administration still full of (pro)nazis after war, some nazis were well known and no one tried to catch them, while they were known for their terrible deeds. Example: CIA and Germany in 1958 knew where was Eichman and his alias but did nothing. At the beginning of the hunt, some didn't even use alias. They were mainly found by individuals, if not only by them.
I'm just going to sarcastically post the same thing I always post on these threads...
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Worry about nearly-dead Nazis some other time, and right now focus on the people WHO ARE ACTUALLY A DANGER.
There were a lot of young men at that time, we're forced to do something that they didn't believe it. Just like a lot of people didn't believe in going to Vietnam, back during the sixties, so a lot of people didn't believe in Hitler's Nazism, but they were forced to wear the uniform anyway.
As a matter of fact, I read an account of a teenage boy who had been drafted into the German army, ans who was throwing the corpses of his comrades into a giant hole so they could be buried, on the Russian front. And with tears in his eyes he looked at his sergeant and asked him why they were doing what they were doing - what the point was of all of it? And his Sergeant replied: "I don't know."
Obviously there were those who used the excuse that they were just following orders. On the other hand there were those who truly did not believe in Hitler vision, who do not believe in doing the sick and depraved things that he was doing.
Because of being a part of it, I would say that yes he does bear some responsibility, regardless of what his feelings were on what he did. And ordinarily I would say yes he does deserve to be punished for what he did.
However, due to the man's age, trying him, convicting him, and punishing him is really just a waste of both time and money. At his age realistically he doesn't have much longer to live. And I think the kindest thing would be to just leave the old man alone, to just let him die in peace.
Another thing to consider is that this is the last generation on earth that will be able to learn about the atrocities the Nazis committed firsthand. In twenty years or so, nobody from the war is going to be left, so really the best thing these former officers can do is use their knowledge and experiences to educate younger generations while they still can.
Not to mention that it's simply a waste of time, as you said. The only reason that the German authorities go after aging Nazis is to paint Germany in a better light, which is just pointless. It's ludicrous for anyone to blame today's Germany for the crimes of Germans seventy years ago. It's like blaming white people today for racial segregation in the 50's and 60's, or blaming Australians today for the treatment of Indigenous Australians during colonization.
And yet there are some people in this country - who belong to a certain political party - who do blame us modern white guys for slavery.
Just like some in that same political party demonize all gun owners whenever a crime is commited.
And they seem to be willfully ignorant of the fact that Slavery was ended 150 years ago, and racial segregation ended 50 yrs ago.
All the slave owners, as well as the black people that were slaves, are all dead and forgotten.
Not to mention the fact that white people were also slaves here in America. It wasn't just the blacks.
The point is, no its not fair that an entire people should be blamed because some of its members want to do sick and twisted things, but unfortunately it does happen.
And correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this the sort of mentality that the civil rights movement of the 1960s tried to fight against? Judging someone on the basis of race rather than who they are as a person? Looking back on the sixties, I don't recall any instances of people blaming all men or all white people for injustices committed against women or racial minorities. It was about bringing people together instead of dividing people. These days, it all seems to be about negativity and placing blame. These people calling out so-called 'hate speech' are acting more hateful than the people they claim are spreading hate speech. Example:
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First at the time it was follow orders or be killed and since Hitler was in charge at the time he didn't break any rules as it was ordered by hitler plus he's over 90yrs old he could literally at any time soon so what is the point
Everyone knew where Eichmann was, no one could do anything. The country he was in refused to extradite him. Similar to Edward Snowden who is taking refuge in Russia currently. Eventually Israeli secret service broke many international laws to kidnap and smuggle him out of the country. If it wasn't for that Eichmann would of never saw a court room.
I dunno, I watched the recent reboot of "Roots" on TV. It felt like it used slavery to incite violence. The main character in the first two parts I've started to nickname "Black Rambo." As he ended up getting away with killing over half a dozen white southerns without punishment even when some of them were right out side the plantation he worked, and no one suspected? Rambo would be proud. I also noticed during the entire Program, good whites almost never existed, and the only one that did ended up getting hanged in the end by her own family. Of course the protagonist in Part 4 got to revenge kill the person who ordered her hanging, in a very revenge oriented away at that.
I love films/movies that portray the time, the injustice towards Africans. My favorite film of all time is "Glory" for example and I own 12 years a Slave, and Amazing Grace and I call them both anti slavery masterpieces. But this reboot of Roots politically seems to have come out at a time, and has been re-written in a way to influence people's political opinion on current times when "Black" lives matter is a big thing among African viewers. The Message isn't that Slavery is bad, but the new Roots seems to say all Whites are bad, and that African violence is justified.
PS I'm Liberal and even I noticed that. It is sad because the first Roots TV series was a masterpiece. This modern Reboot is garbage.
So they broke international law to KIDNAP someone. That is just... I don't even know. I'm sure nothing will be done to them though; no one will say a word.
Just remember the losers are almost always the bad guys, who knows who could be put on trail if the nazis won. I dont agree with punishing a old man for the crimes of a scared boy with a gun at the back of his head.
I hope not. The Israeli's are gods amongst men.
Honestly only a minority of guards deserve to be prosecuted. There are guards who did horrible things, and then there are guards that just well did their jobs, and most of those jobs were no different than in a normal prison. ie Guard Tower, Watchmen. etc. Karl Koch who is heavily demonized by Holocaust Historians is known to personally been responsible for the deaths of 3-4 individuals not hundreds of thousands as some claim. It is on record by the SS themselves when they launched an internal investigation that was started because SS Doctor and General Josias Prince whatever his title was accused him of killing a Jewish doctor which who worked in the hospital from time to time, a person's whose name he came suspicious when he saw it on a death list. At the time the man died Karl Koch was the commandant of the camp, he was at that time when accused commandant of Majdanek. Karl was arrested, eventually charged by the SS for multiple counts of murder, conspiracy to commit murder, theft and embezzlement, and behavior unbecoming of an officer. Executed in 1945 by way of firing squad.
It is an interesting story as it's one of around 30 SS guards who were prosecuted by the SS themselves for crimes while working in a concentration camp. Meaning on average it wasn't Okay for SS Guards to act brutally, randomly kill people, regardless who the prisoners were. Of course corruption within the system insured that such things did happen and were not reported, but it's interesting to note the SS never openly and officially supported within their own ranks the murder of inmates inside concentration camps, without orders coming from above. Almost all of them would chose not to do anything horrible if given the option. So when you hear that generic story of the SS Guard decimating a work detail, running out of bullets, reload, so he can fire that final shot (which is insanely common in Holocaust films/stories) just because he could and for the fun of it. Well stories like that are likely exaggerations or just made up by survivors to dramatize their stories. Because of this stories like Karl Koch's Murder charges often get supressed by Holocaust Historians as it doesn't paint that insanely brutal camp behavior of Guards they often want to paint.
This in turn is also one of the primary reasons why a lot of concentration camp guards even when known went for decades without any criminal prosecution. Within the first decade after the end of the war it already became evident that eyewitness testimony was HOG wash. That SS Doctor I mentioned for example was given a life sentence because he was a Doctor in Buchenwald. But when evidence of SS crimes in Buchenwald's brutality was soul reliant on eyewitness testimony a lot of guards who worked in Buchenwald had their prison sentences reduced and some were flat out acquitted. Including Karl Koch's wife Ilse, who also worked in Buchenwald. Tragically for Ilse she was retried under the new West German Government, and despite being acquitted by the occupying US Military Governor in the late 40s she was put back in prison for the exact same crimes she was accused of during the Nuremberg trial despite it was decided by General Clay most of those accusations were bogus. I mean she was accused of selecting people for skin harvesting to make wallets, furniture, and well tattooed inmates for framing the tattoos for paintings. Tragically for Ilse she ended up dying in prison for this kind of crazy charges, heck she was accused of torturing and raping inmates before killing them. Stuff that General Clay for example like many others now today and just say "That is just ridiculous." As there was no evidence to prove any of the claims.
The example I posted above is a perfect example on why people look at SS guards as disgusting. Myth/Lore when it comes to how SS Guards behaved has taken over reality/logic.
That's just Eichmann, one of the head of the finale solution. But hey, international laws, so let him live.
As for "kameraden": they didn't act because they didn't want to. Don't tell me CIA care about international laws, and no one says a word when they break it too.
They wondered if they should and they didn't to "save" the probicity of the german government in time of cold war; there was a former nazi in it, Globke. They feared Eichmann would talk about him. CIA went in the newspaper Life to remove a mention of this nazi.