I have mixed feelings about Don Bluth movies. I cant stand his movies but thanks to Bluth there is now a animation industry in Ireland and I have a job I love!
Im not a big fan of manga but there are some shows I like. Samurai Champloo was great. Anyone ever seen it?
You would never see a American or European animated TV series like that, we only think animation is for kids.
Or at least the general public believes this, unfortunately.
Does anyone else seem to get annoyed when people list animated as a genre?
Oh, I know! "Live action" isn't a genre, so why should "animation" be?
When I worked at the videostore, we regularly had "kid days" where kid movies would be 3 for one euro. The thing is, the system didn't have "kid movie" as a category, so the only way to have it set up automatically (the videos were rented from a machine, not from me. I was in charge of fixing the machine and registering people in it) was to have it apply to the "animation" category.
So on "kid days", there were even some adult movies (and I do mean THAT kind of adult movies) that got the promotion, because they were animated.
That was stupid.
I remember reading an interview with Brad Bird were the interviewer called animation a "genre" and Brad Bird went crazy with him! A Western is a genre! Animation is an art form
On a different note, what cartoon shows do people think would make cool point and clicks? I think Foster's Home For Imaginary Friends could make an awesome game!
On a different note, what cartoon shows do people think would make cool point and clicks? I think Foster's Home For Imaginary Friends could make an awesome game!
This has been mentioned as a possibility elsewhere -- and several times, IIRC -- but I think it bears repeating because it really is too perfect.
Which is to say:
... or generally speaking, the Duckburg-verse as imagined by Carl Banks and expanded upon by Don Rosa.
It already has so many of the ingredients needed for a great adventure game built-in: larger-than-life hijinks, travel to exotic (and not-so-exotic) locales, mysteries solved through wit and item acquisition, a diverse cast of likable characters with good chemistry. And Scrooge would translate wonderfully into the main, playable character. Heck, this might even work better in episodic format than a full-length game. *COUGH*
Likely to ever come to pass or not, this would be my dream cartoon-based franchise as far as adventure games go. So long as a company with a proven track record were to acquire said license *COUGH**HACK**WHEEZE* and Disney doesn't keep them on too tight a lease, of course.
Yeah, Samurai Champloo was great, but mostly because of Mugen's crass blunt attitude. He was just kind of an unstoppable force; he knew who was blowing smoke and not worth his time and who was a badass who he'd enjoy killing. Mugen was probably the greatest rogue I've seen on the screen outside of Han Solo. He was so bad and he was fun to watch. The dynamic between the three mains was really well done too. I'm not a fan of hip hop or rap, but I am a fan of this show. The zombie episode in particular was so wacky, unexpected, and brilliant. That, and the episode where they play baseball with the Americans.
On a different note, what cartoon shows do people think would make cool point and clicks? I think Foster's Home For Imaginary Friends could make an awesome game!
Childhood favorite of mine Masters of the Universe... I know what you are thinking... You're thinking "but Irishmile... that is an action show"
But I do not think He-Man ever slashed or even punched another character on the show he always found a way to win without being super violent... that could lend itself to some puzzles...
Kind of like how Morgan wanted to fight head on and Guybrush was like "that is not how I do things step aside lady with the killer hips.." obviously I am paraphrasing.
Yeah, Samurai Champloo was great, but mostly because of Mugen's crass blunt attitude. He was just kind of an unstoppable force; he knew who was blowing smoke and not worth his time and who was a badass who he'd enjoy killing. Mugen was probably the greatest rogue I've seen on the screen outside of Han Solo. He was so bad and he was fun to watch. The dynamic between the three mains was really well done too. I'm not a fan of hip hop or rap, but I am a fan of this show. The zombie episode in particular was so wacky, unexpected, and brilliant. That, and the episode where they play baseball with the Americans.
I agree I think the zombie episode was one of the best and it was a nice distraction from the main story. Mugen kind of reminds me of Sawyer from Lost, a bit of a dick but still appealing as a character
Now a Samurai Champloo point and click, that would be class!
I watched the first four episodes of "Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex" and I definatly say its on my "To Watch" list for the summer. However, I have to say that I think I'm going off anime. I mean I still love certain manga series but anime nowadays is just becoming either too conventional or its buried in a niche of unoriginality and fanservice.
I mean I still love certain manga series but anime nowadays is just becoming either too conventional or its buried in a niche of unoriginality and fanservice.
While I'm not going into glorious nippon mode here, (because hey at least the American animation industry isn't buried knee-deep in moe garbage) think about the major cartoons that are produced here. Chowder, Flapjack, Adventure Time, Spongebob and while I'm hesitant to admit it, Invader Zim, are all popular and pretty successful cartoons, but they all depend on the very same formula. Wacky, nonsensical humor and slapstick. We've had a few shows that tried to introduce different genres, like Avatar and Hey Arnold! (even behind that comedy it had some pretty serious themes) but they were pretty much flukes. There was also Justice League, but despite the unique presentation, it was still in the mass of superhero cartoons. We don't have a real "let's experiment with different genres to create an animation market that appeals to different groups of people" schtick like Japan does.
I think this is why people need to stop generalizing American animation by everything that is a series on American TV.
While I'm not going into glorious nippon mode here, (because hey at least the American animation industry isn't buried knee-deep in moe garbage) think about the major cartoons that are produced here. Chowder, Flapjack, Adventure Time, Spongebob and while I'm hesitant to admit it, Invader Zim, are all popular and pretty successful cartoons, but they all depend on the very same formula. Wacky, nonsensical humor and slapstick. We've had a few shows that tried to introduce different genres, like Avatar and Hey Arnold! (even behind that comedy it had some pretty serious themes) but they were pretty much flukes. There was also Justice League, but despite the unique presentation, it was still in the mass of superhero cartoons. We don't have a real "let's experiment with different genres to create an animation market that appeals to different groups of people" schtick like Japan does.
I think this is why people need to stop generalizing American animation by everything that is a series on American TV.
Wait, where in the world are you getting this idea of a varied Japanese animation market that appeals to all ages and genders? The real money, and a good 90% of what gets imported, comes in three rather demeaning flavors:
1. Average Shonen. Action cartoons for preteen boys that follow a very strict formula.
2. Average Shojo: Romance stories for preteen girls filled with androgynous boys and a blank slate protagonist.
3. Sex: Fanservice-filled "boy trapped in a house with 20 constantly horny girls" formula.
Where are these experimental shows that you're talking about here? Are they really more common than experimental American animation? Where does Adult Swim and its Original Series fit in? South Park? Futurama? Simpsons? King of the Hill? Ugly Americans? Etc etc and so forth?
Whoa you guys. I'd jump into the fray right now, because believe me, I have a lot to say about this topic, but I'm kinda busy with studying for an art history midterm. So for now, I'll just quote this e-mail that C.H. Greenblatt sent to an Anime News Network column:
Hey Answerman,
I'm writing in response to the letter from the person asking about the difference between American and Japanese animation. As a long-time fan of ANN and a regular reader of your column, I thought I'd chime in. Plus as the creator of Chowder, the show you both seem to diss on, I figure I have to represent a little.
I think you've actually oversimplified the problem in blaming it all on the executives. Yes, most development executives in animation are pretty worthless. Most of them really do not like animation and look at it as a stepping stone to get into “Hollywood.” There's very little glamour in animation and those of us who do it do so out of love for the medium. It's a miracle any good show ever gets made on tv here.
Every show is a child of what came before it. You can say Chowder is like Spongebob, but to me it's only really similar in the tone and the audience. I'd like to think it owes more to the cruddy but wonderful Saturday morning cartoons I watched in the 80's. I worked on Spongebob, and I remember when that first came out everyone was saying it was another Ren & Stimpy. All of us who work on these shows live, eat, breathe, and love animation. We're really just trying to carry on the silly cartoon antics of what was started back in the Warner Brothers days.
Chowder was an extremely hard sell to the network. They thought it looked too young. They didn't like the use of patterns. They didn't like the stop motion. They were afraid it promoted over-eating. But everyone really responded to the vibe of the pilot and a few people at the network who really believed in me helped push it through to greenlight over a grueling, two-year process. Spongebob was a hard sell, too. Nick felt that no one wanted to see a show about a nerd. Very few shows are actually dictated by the executives. They tend to kill good things more often than make them happen. It's a lot easier to say “No” than “Yes.”
For the writer of the letter to say there are no action shows on anymore is kind of ridiculous. Action is actually the easiest type of show to sell because toys are involved. Often the toy deal is in place before the show even begins. But I agree with you about Batman. Batman was groundbreaking and almost every action show since then has been trying to catch up.
But I think the real difference between American and Japanese animation is a cultural one. Animation in America has long had to fight against the stigma that animation is just for kids, and any attempt otherwise would be corrupting the youth. Because why on earth would adults ever even watch such drivel? But in Japan, comics and animation are enjoyed by the masses, by people of all ages. So you have a greater diversity, by nature of having a more diverse audience. I think it's just now, with shows like South Park, Family Guy, and the Adult Swim block of shows that Americans are starting to see that animation can transcend more than one age group.
I remember seeing Akira when it first came out on video. That was a cornerstone and it really did change everything. The only other thing that has come as close to opening my eyes about animation is Fantasia.
I've been a big anime fan for a while. It felt like really fresh take on a medium I love. And for a while I ingested everything I could. So I think it's natural, when you first see Japanese animation as westerner to be as smitten. But Japanese animation has it's own share of crap. And a lot of it. For every good show, there are 30+ bad ones put out by Japanese executives looking to cash in on a formula. So to say that Japanese animation is a Mecca while American animation sucks is a bit of a oversimplification. We do a lot of things well that the Japanese don't do. They don't do cartoony. A lot of their storytelling is vague, incoherent, and pretends to be deep (which is probably why it plays well with teens. Ahh, youth.) Each side has its strengths.
I praise the heavens every time I get to watch something wonderful and new like a Samurai Champloo, a Paranoia Agent, a Beck, or I get to read a Monster, a Vagabond, or a MU-Shi-Shi. But I also really like watching South Park and Aqua Teen Hunger Force. I like laughing. And the medium of animation lets me do things with my imagination that no other medium can do. When you see a show like Chowder, you're seeing the efforts of people who believe that animation can make people happy. And most people don't think about this, but it's actually a lot harder to make funny family entertainment, where you are operating under lots of rules and constrictions, than if you have carte-blanche to be as wild and crazy as you want.
I guess we shouldn't bemoan the differences, but hope that we keep getting good stuff from both sides. And as the influence of anime spreads, more and more people will start to believe that animation can be more than just entertainment for kids. Not that there's anything wrong with entertaining kids.
1. Average Shonen. Action cartoons for preteen boys that follow a very strict formula.
2. Average Shojo: Romance stories for preteen girls filled with androgynous boys and a blank slate protagonist.
3. Sex: Fanservice-filled "boy trapped in a house with 20 constantly horny girls" formula.
I think you're making #1 appear way too narrow than it actually is, since all adventure and action shows are going to appear samey thanks to the universal hero archetype formula.
Anyway, while I'm well aware what makes money in Japan, since I did make a remark about moe crap, all I'm meaning to say is that they are a lot more willing to experiment in a paying market than we are and there IS a broader audience for animation over there than there is here. Hence the sex, even if it's creepy and awful.
Where are these experimental shows that you're talking about here? Are they really more common than experimental American animation? Where does Adult Swim and its Original Series fit in? South Park? Futurama? Simpsons? King of the Hill? Ugly Americans? Etc etc and so forth?
How on earth are any of those experimental besides maybe The Simpsons and South Park? The Simpsons was also a fluke, and a quite literal one at that. The rest are typical comedies for adults that played off well thanks to the success of that fluke.
Ugh, these types of websites make me sick to my stomach. "Hey guys, here's what's new in the world of ~~ANIMU~~, what? General animation? What's that?"
I wish people would just see animation from Japan as just that, animation from Japan, instead of this sacred thing that must be thoroughly researched simply because it's from Japan and that's all that matters. Why don't things like Persepolis or Triplets of Belleville get any love?
I've watched Ugly Americans. It was definitely something different.
And the thing about oversimplifying shonen; Isn't that the same thing you're doing to American cartoons? I mean, when I was living in Taiwan, I would often watch the several anime channels that they had and a lot of it was pretty samey. Every once in a while, you'd get something interesting, but more often than not it was all just following the same formula. In fact, weirdly enough, the one that I got into the most was this older show called GeGeGe no Kitaro because it was so camp. And as it turned out, my mom watched this as a kid. And then I slowly realized that the anime and manga I liked were the ones my mom liked as a kid. Weird.
And I officially lost my train of thought.
Oh! And the reason we can't just consider it animation from japan is because there are so many cultural differences to them that we can't just lump them together into one group.
I think you're making #1 appear way too narrow than it actually is, since all adventure and action shows are going to appear samey thanks to the universal hero archetype formula.
And I think you're making it out to be far broader than it actually is.
Anyway, while I'm well aware what makes money in Japan, since I did make a remark about moe crap, all I'm meaning to say is that they are a lot more willing to experiment in a paying market than we are and there IS a broader audience for animation over there than there is here. Hence the sex, even if it's creepy and awful.
You're not really referring to a broad audience here, though. You're referring to shows made mainly for kids. The noitaminA block wouldn't exist if this wasn't the case. The sex shows, those are for people that are generally considered to be creepy shut-ins. That's why the word "Otaku" essentially means "creepy shut-in". That is not "widespread acceptance".
How on earth are any of those experimental besides maybe The Simpsons and South Park? The Simpsons was also a fluke, and a quite literal one at that. The rest are typical comedies for adults that played off well thanks to the success of that fluke.
That wasn't the point. The point was "Wait, how do these fit into this all-wacky-all-the-time image you're painting of American animation?" They don't fit.
Still, many shows on Adult Swim have been highly experimental, or at least extremely risky. Can you imagine the board meetings when it came to making Harvey Birdman? Moral Orel is a show that(from the end of the second season on, at least) was extremely disparate from most formulas...which got it cancelled, yes, but it was something. What of Aqua Teen? You may hate it, I certainly don't really enjoy the show, but it is not within the typical comedy for adult archetype. What about Robot Chicken? It's essentially a variety show shoved into 15 minutes, done with stop-motion, and it hadn't been really done before. The Animatrix? American-produced and funded, so certainly it counts(in much the same way that GI Joe is american despite the fact that Toei did the animation).
I'm not claiming any of these are fascinating or "indie" or anything like that, but they show a variety that you downplayed far more than it deserves. These aren't things like Persepolis or Waltz with Bashir, but these are also apparently not the kind of things that you're talking about either.
You could say that yeah. In fact (sorry I'm going off on a tangent) I feel that American animation is becoming full of bigots that always have an opinion on what the "best" animation is and just assume that everyone else thinks the same way (I'm looking at YOU Cartoon Brew). And what's worse they only have a closed view on the "best" animation with the occasional "Hur hur these guys REAALLY suck" posts. It's kind of like a bad video game forum, only its over freaking cartoons!! Seriously, the last thing the industry needs is a bad online fanbase. Again sorry that's just my two cents.
I've watched Ugly Americans. It was definitely something different.
I don't know, I see the same dry humor, just presented in some disturbing and ugly (hurr hurr) vector-style animation...
Ok I guess that's different.
And the thing about oversimplifying shonen; Isn't that the same thing you're doing to American cartoons?
How?
I mean, when I was living in Taiwan, I would often watch the several anime channels that they had and a lot of it was pretty samey.
I never argued against this so I'm not sure what you're getting at here.
Oh! And the reason we can't just consider it animation from japan is because there are so many cultural differences to them that we can't just lump them together into one group.
Why not? It's still animation in the general sense, even if they're different styles. Animation from different countries are considered "animation from [this country]" or simply "foreign" while Japanese animation apparently gets its very own genre. Even then, this is no reason to glorify it.
And I think you're making it out to be far broader than it actually is.
Just because it isn't an anime, doesn't mean it isn't shonen. Unless you're thinking of some specific definition that I'm not aware of, because as far as I know, stories of young boys going out into the world as heroes and making friends and fighting bad guys isn't just limited to Japanese animation.
You're not really referring to a broad audience here, though. You're referring to shows made mainly for kids. The noitaminA block wouldn't exist if this wasn't the case. The sex shows, those are for people that are generally considered to be creepy shut-ins. That's why the word "Otaku" essentially means "creepy shut-in". That is not "widespread acceptance".
I didn't use the word "widespread acceptance" I used the term "broader audience" and they are entirely different things. Sex animations are only just part of it, they have all the genres we do and more. It's because our market isn't as interested in making different sorts of stories that are animated as they are. We have great live action, it's safer because people don't consider live action to automatically be for kids, and consumes less budget. Why bother with the high-budget animation?
That's the attitude here. This is not the case in Japan, because the attitude isn't "animation is for kids" and so they don't feel as if they have that same risk of losing a large group of audience we think we have.
That wasn't the point. The point was "Wait, how do these fit into this all-wacky-all-the-time image you're painting of American animation?" They don't fit.
I think you are jumping into one thing I said and ignoring everything else I'm trying to get at. I said animated series for kids nowadays is samey, and that is not only an observation but there is a reason behind it that also explains why Japanese animation looks samey most of the time. If you, as an animator, go study to try and get a job in the market, you'll see that there are very specific techniques they will try and teach you to help you land a job. If you're lucky, like Pixar, you'll get to be involved in something different after your YEARS of hard work working for what the market wants. Otherwise, we Americans love simplicity. "This character has too many unnecessary details and will be hard to animate, please tone it down" "make it stretchier" "exaggerate the expression here, you can do it in this way and that way" "making people laugh is the best way to go, so let's do that" and because of people following these techniques to get their contract, it will tend to look similar.
And of course, the animation techniques taught in Japan are different than ours, but still otherwise the same among them, hence the samey look.
Still, many shows on Adult Swim have been highly experimental, or at least extremely risky.
You are still side-stepping my point. They are all comedies. It doesn't matter how different it is, it's still going to appeal to a very specific group of people and I'm not saying this is better or worse than what anime companies do. My point is there's hardly a difference to how the market for it works.
You could say that yeah. In fact (sorry I'm going off on a tangent) I feel that American animation is becoming full of bigots that always have an opinion on what the "best" animation is and just assume that everyone else thinks the same way (I'm looking at YOU Cartoon Brew). And what's worse they only have a closed view on the "best" animation with the occasional "Hur hur these guys REAALLY suck" posts.
This can be applied to anywhere. Even here on the Telltale forums. People have strong opinions and it happens. Especially for a place like Cartoon Brew, where industry leading folk as well as die hard fans give their strong thoughts.
Okay, I'm still busy, but since no one seems to have the patience to read that incredibly thoughtful post by an actual member of the animation industry (other than comment on the site it was posted on, which was completely besides the point), I'll break it down for you guys.
Just because two shows are cartoon comedies, doesn't mean they're the same.
Wacky cartoons are just an American tradition dating back to the glory days of the Looney Tunes.
Wacky cartoons are also, believe it or not, a harder sell to make because unlike action cartoons, there are little-to-no toys that can sell. So it's unfair to complain that all executives want are wacky cartoons, because it's honestly not true.
Americans don't really see cartoons as something adults can enjoy, while the Japanese do.
Anime's pretty cool, but it's got a lot of crap too. Mainly, a lot of vague, pretentious storytelling, and a lot of executives trying to cash in on the latest trend. Also, there's almost no cartoony-ness.
Both anime and western animation is awesome, so let's just shut up and enjoy.
Wait, so you pretty much agree? From what I read, you've said that wacky comedies are all the same and that's the exact opposite of what Greenblatt was saying. Please clarify?
Cello wanted me to mention that a major component to this whole issue is that in a year the US only a handful of animated shows get the greenlight, while in Japan 40 to 50 animated shows are greenlit, largely because its much cheaper there due to the lack of unions and such. The life of an animator in Japan is really hard, but that's another thing.
I said they are "samey" and that's not the same thing as being "exactly the same." They just have a similar style, tone and formula. If they didn't you wouldn't be classifying them as "wacky comedies" because that's what they are. I don't exactly agree with Greenblatt if he's trying to say that the tone and audience are where the similarities stop, because if you look at it from a multiple design standpoint, that certainly isn't true. (and just because he's a professional animator doesn't mean you have to agree with all his opinions; if so I'd be saying that all 3D animation, including Pixar, is crap, since if John Kricfalusi says so it must be true) If this is too difficult to explain let me provide an example.
Let's take a wonderful cartoon that I mentioned earlier, "Hey Arnold!" (of course, it isn't the only cartoon that has achieved it since Peanuts is another famous example but I'm just using this one as an example because I know about it the most) It still has the overall simplistic cartoony style that a lot of animation tries to achieve, but it doesn't have the similarity to Chowder that say something like SpongeBob would have, because of the personality of the show. Even though Hey Arnold! is cartoony and comedic, it doesn't create a bright, colorful universe where people can get be smashed by giant hammers and it's funny and characters can have multiple personalities and the audience simply accepts it because continuity isn't the point of the show. These things can all apply to shows like Chowder, SpongeBob, Flapjack, Adventure Time etc. I think this is what Greenblatt means by similar tone. On the design standpoint, the similarities should be obvious. If they aren't, let me clarify: stretchy noodle-like arms and legs that often lack elbows, bulging eyes, (doesn't apply to AT until certain moments) overuse of the smear technique, random detailed/live-action clips or frames for comedic effect, exaggerated facial expressions to the point of disproportionate, and the list goes on.
Of course I'm not just limiting them to those shows, there are a lot of crappy shows that use these too, and I guess this is where people get the idea that American animation is unoriginal. I can talk about Butch Hartman's stuff but if I do I'll want to physically hurt someone.
Anyway, the only real reason I'm saying this is not really to defend the way Japan does things or to say American animation is any worse, just saying it's kind of unfair to say all anime is the same when most American animation on TV will tend to superficially appear the same and it all derives from the techniques taught to be acceptable in the market for both medias.
This can be applied to anywhere. Even here on the Telltale forums. People have strong opinions and it happens. Especially for a place like Cartoon Brew, where industry leading folk as well as die hard fans give their strong thoughts.
As long as there is the Internet, there will be bad fanbases for everything.
I agree with you entirely Giant Trope, its just that some of these so called "professionals" in the animation community act like 5 year olds as opposed to actual professions. I don't know maybe this is ironic for me to call them out for having brash statements when I just did the same thing but I just can't help but think that sites such as Cartoon Brew have lost the 'point' behind being a site dedicated to the animation community as a whole. Of course the video game industry and fanbase is far from a happy place where everyone gets along and people don't look like idiots over the stupidest little topic, but it just makes me a bit despressed that the animation community is such a big mess. Maybe that's why I'm starting to lose some respect for them.
On the design standpoint, the similarities should be obvious. If they aren't, let me clarify: stretchy noodle-like arms and legs that often lack elbows, bulging eyes, (doesn't apply to AT until certain moments) overuse of the smear technique, random detailed/live-action clips or frames for comedic effect, exaggerated facial expressions to the point of disproportionate, and the list goes on.
See, here's where you've lost me, because (a) none of those shows you listed have all of those qualities (Chowder has solid elbows, Adventure Time doesn't have those random detailed/live-action clips, etc.), and (b) those are just... comedic cartoon qualities. That's like complaining about action shows having action in them. Besides design-wise, they're all pretty different.
Solid, meaty elbows with a sense of structure. Bright, psychedelic palette with a 60s influence. Static patterns everywhere. More organic shapes in the characters.
Limbs that taper at the joint and half the time go rubber. Far more muted color scheme; clearly going for a more vintage look here. Characters have a more graphic sensibility than the characters of Chowder. Also uses static patterns, but for the most part they're just watercolor samples rather than actual... patterns. I don't know how to word it, but hopefully you get the point.
ALL RUBBER HOSE, ALL THE TIME. Pretty much no real structure in these characters No static patterns, or even any sort of gradation in the coloring. Bright, garish colors. Clearly going for a childish look here.
Now, I know that you're not really trying to attack American cartoons here. You're just saying that American cartoons all look the same just like anime all looks the same, right? Well, after I catch the bus and head back home, I'll continue my post.
I agree with you entirely Giant Trope, its just that some of these so called "professionals" in the animation community act like 5 year olds as opposed to actual professions. I don't know maybe this is ironic for me to call them out for having brash statements when I just did the same thing but I just can't help but think that sites such as Cartoon Brew have lost the 'point' behind being a site dedicated to the animation community as a whole. Of course the video game industry and fanbase is far from a happy place where everyone gets along and people don't look like idiots over the stupidest little topic, but it just makes me a bit despressed that the animation community is such a big mess. Maybe that's why I'm starting to lose some respect for them.
While I've got issues with Cartoon Brew myself, you gotta understand that a lot of crap goes on in the industry that has made a lot of the CB-ers pretty crotchety. I'd say that half of the anger on CartoonBrew is irrational, and the other half comes from bitter experiences that have colored their view on things forever.
How many characters in this can you identify? Whereas if you used anime characters, you would have a much harder time trying to figure out who's who and most often than not, the deciding factor of the character's individuality is the shape of their hair. That said, different artists DO have differing art styles, and I don't deny that. However, American cartoons generally have a greater amount of variety in design.
And just for the record I don't hate anime and what not. Nor am I: OMG AMERICAS THE GREATEST YEUH
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Nope. But then again I've never seen it and don't particularly have a burning desire to do so.
You would never see a American or European animated TV series like that, we only think animation is for kids.
Or at least the general public believes this, unfortunately.
Does anyone else seem to get annoyed when people list animated as a genre?
Oh, I know! "Live action" isn't a genre, so why should "animation" be?
When I worked at the videostore, we regularly had "kid days" where kid movies would be 3 for one euro. The thing is, the system didn't have "kid movie" as a category, so the only way to have it set up automatically (the videos were rented from a machine, not from me. I was in charge of fixing the machine and registering people in it) was to have it apply to the "animation" category.
So on "kid days", there were even some adult movies (and I do mean THAT kind of adult movies) that got the promotion, because they were animated.
That was stupid.
This has been mentioned as a possibility elsewhere -- and several times, IIRC -- but I think it bears repeating because it really is too perfect.
Which is to say:
... or generally speaking, the Duckburg-verse as imagined by Carl Banks and expanded upon by Don Rosa.
It already has so many of the ingredients needed for a great adventure game built-in: larger-than-life hijinks, travel to exotic (and not-so-exotic) locales, mysteries solved through wit and item acquisition, a diverse cast of likable characters with good chemistry. And Scrooge would translate wonderfully into the main, playable character. Heck, this might even work better in episodic format than a full-length game. *COUGH*
Likely to ever come to pass or not, this would be my dream cartoon-based franchise as far as adventure games go. So long as a company with a proven track record were to acquire said license *COUGH**HACK**WHEEZE* and Disney doesn't keep them on too tight a lease, of course.
Childhood favorite of mine Masters of the Universe... I know what you are thinking... You're thinking "but Irishmile... that is an action show"
But I do not think He-Man ever slashed or even punched another character on the show he always found a way to win without being super violent... that could lend itself to some puzzles...
Kind of like how Morgan wanted to fight head on and Guybrush was like "that is not how I do things step aside lady with the killer hips.." obviously I am paraphrasing.
I agree I think the zombie episode was one of the best and it was a nice distraction from the main story. Mugen kind of reminds me of Sawyer from Lost, a bit of a dick but still appealing as a character
Now a Samurai Champloo point and click, that would be class!
Total drama Action : the second season of total drama series , and it is really good ..
Generator Rex : the new show from cartoon network , I didn't really liked it ..
The Grim Adventures of Billy & Mandy : Awesome show and I love it
The New Batman Adventures : good animation
The Secret Saturdays : Best cartoon on cartoon network , the story in the second season gets better and better
And
The Simpsons
Oh you mean just like American cartoons?
Explain.
While I'm not going into glorious nippon mode here, (because hey at least the American animation industry isn't buried knee-deep in moe garbage) think about the major cartoons that are produced here. Chowder, Flapjack, Adventure Time, Spongebob and while I'm hesitant to admit it, Invader Zim, are all popular and pretty successful cartoons, but they all depend on the very same formula. Wacky, nonsensical humor and slapstick. We've had a few shows that tried to introduce different genres, like Avatar and Hey Arnold! (even behind that comedy it had some pretty serious themes) but they were pretty much flukes. There was also Justice League, but despite the unique presentation, it was still in the mass of superhero cartoons. We don't have a real "let's experiment with different genres to create an animation market that appeals to different groups of people" schtick like Japan does.
I think this is why people need to stop generalizing American animation by everything that is a series on American TV.
Wait, where in the world are you getting this idea of a varied Japanese animation market that appeals to all ages and genders? The real money, and a good 90% of what gets imported, comes in three rather demeaning flavors:
1. Average Shonen. Action cartoons for preteen boys that follow a very strict formula.
2. Average Shojo: Romance stories for preteen girls filled with androgynous boys and a blank slate protagonist.
3. Sex: Fanservice-filled "boy trapped in a house with 20 constantly horny girls" formula.
Where are these experimental shows that you're talking about here? Are they really more common than experimental American animation? Where does Adult Swim and its Original Series fit in? South Park? Futurama? Simpsons? King of the Hill? Ugly Americans? Etc etc and so forth?
I think you're making #1 appear way too narrow than it actually is, since all adventure and action shows are going to appear samey thanks to the universal hero archetype formula.
Anyway, while I'm well aware what makes money in Japan, since I did make a remark about moe crap, all I'm meaning to say is that they are a lot more willing to experiment in a paying market than we are and there IS a broader audience for animation over there than there is here. Hence the sex, even if it's creepy and awful.
How on earth are any of those experimental besides maybe The Simpsons and South Park? The Simpsons was also a fluke, and a quite literal one at that. The rest are typical comedies for adults that played off well thanks to the success of that fluke.
PS.
Ugh, these types of websites make me sick to my stomach. "Hey guys, here's what's new in the world of ~~ANIMU~~, what? General animation? What's that?"
I wish people would just see animation from Japan as just that, animation from Japan, instead of this sacred thing that must be thoroughly researched simply because it's from Japan and that's all that matters. Why don't things like Persepolis or Triplets of Belleville get any love?
And the thing about oversimplifying shonen; Isn't that the same thing you're doing to American cartoons? I mean, when I was living in Taiwan, I would often watch the several anime channels that they had and a lot of it was pretty samey. Every once in a while, you'd get something interesting, but more often than not it was all just following the same formula. In fact, weirdly enough, the one that I got into the most was this older show called GeGeGe no Kitaro because it was so camp. And as it turned out, my mom watched this as a kid. And then I slowly realized that the anime and manga I liked were the ones my mom liked as a kid. Weird.
And I officially lost my train of thought.
Oh! And the reason we can't just consider it animation from japan is because there are so many cultural differences to them that we can't just lump them together into one group.
You're not really referring to a broad audience here, though. You're referring to shows made mainly for kids. The noitaminA block wouldn't exist if this wasn't the case. The sex shows, those are for people that are generally considered to be creepy shut-ins. That's why the word "Otaku" essentially means "creepy shut-in". That is not "widespread acceptance".
That wasn't the point. The point was "Wait, how do these fit into this all-wacky-all-the-time image you're painting of American animation?" They don't fit.
Still, many shows on Adult Swim have been highly experimental, or at least extremely risky. Can you imagine the board meetings when it came to making Harvey Birdman? Moral Orel is a show that(from the end of the second season on, at least) was extremely disparate from most formulas...which got it cancelled, yes, but it was something. What of Aqua Teen? You may hate it, I certainly don't really enjoy the show, but it is not within the typical comedy for adult archetype. What about Robot Chicken? It's essentially a variety show shoved into 15 minutes, done with stop-motion, and it hadn't been really done before. The Animatrix? American-produced and funded, so certainly it counts(in much the same way that GI Joe is american despite the fact that Toei did the animation).
I'm not claiming any of these are fascinating or "indie" or anything like that, but they show a variety that you downplayed far more than it deserves. These aren't things like Persepolis or Waltz with Bashir, but these are also apparently not the kind of things that you're talking about either.
You could say that yeah. In fact (sorry I'm going off on a tangent) I feel that American animation is becoming full of bigots that always have an opinion on what the "best" animation is and just assume that everyone else thinks the same way (I'm looking at YOU Cartoon Brew). And what's worse they only have a closed view on the "best" animation with the occasional "Hur hur these guys REAALLY suck" posts. It's kind of like a bad video game forum, only its over freaking cartoons!! Seriously, the last thing the industry needs is a bad online fanbase. Again sorry that's just my two cents.
I don't know, I see the same dry humor, just presented in some disturbing and ugly (hurr hurr) vector-style animation...
Ok I guess that's different.
How?
I never argued against this so I'm not sure what you're getting at here.
Why not? It's still animation in the general sense, even if they're different styles. Animation from different countries are considered "animation from [this country]" or simply "foreign" while Japanese animation apparently gets its very own genre. Even then, this is no reason to glorify it.
Just because it isn't an anime, doesn't mean it isn't shonen. Unless you're thinking of some specific definition that I'm not aware of, because as far as I know, stories of young boys going out into the world as heroes and making friends and fighting bad guys isn't just limited to Japanese animation.
I didn't use the word "widespread acceptance" I used the term "broader audience" and they are entirely different things. Sex animations are only just part of it, they have all the genres we do and more. It's because our market isn't as interested in making different sorts of stories that are animated as they are. We have great live action, it's safer because people don't consider live action to automatically be for kids, and consumes less budget. Why bother with the high-budget animation?
That's the attitude here. This is not the case in Japan, because the attitude isn't "animation is for kids" and so they don't feel as if they have that same risk of losing a large group of audience we think we have.
I think you are jumping into one thing I said and ignoring everything else I'm trying to get at. I said animated series for kids nowadays is samey, and that is not only an observation but there is a reason behind it that also explains why Japanese animation looks samey most of the time. If you, as an animator, go study to try and get a job in the market, you'll see that there are very specific techniques they will try and teach you to help you land a job. If you're lucky, like Pixar, you'll get to be involved in something different after your YEARS of hard work working for what the market wants. Otherwise, we Americans love simplicity. "This character has too many unnecessary details and will be hard to animate, please tone it down" "make it stretchier" "exaggerate the expression here, you can do it in this way and that way" "making people laugh is the best way to go, so let's do that" and because of people following these techniques to get their contract, it will tend to look similar.
And of course, the animation techniques taught in Japan are different than ours, but still otherwise the same among them, hence the samey look.
You are still side-stepping my point. They are all comedies. It doesn't matter how different it is, it's still going to appeal to a very specific group of people and I'm not saying this is better or worse than what anime companies do. My point is there's hardly a difference to how the market for it works.
Many people find the fascination with video games as silly and stupid as well.
As long as there is the Internet, there will be bad fanbases for everything.
Cello wanted me to mention that a major component to this whole issue is that in a year the US only a handful of animated shows get the greenlight, while in Japan 40 to 50 animated shows are greenlit, largely because its much cheaper there due to the lack of unions and such. The life of an animator in Japan is really hard, but that's another thing.
Let's take a wonderful cartoon that I mentioned earlier, "Hey Arnold!" (of course, it isn't the only cartoon that has achieved it since Peanuts is another famous example but I'm just using this one as an example because I know about it the most) It still has the overall simplistic cartoony style that a lot of animation tries to achieve, but it doesn't have the similarity to Chowder that say something like SpongeBob would have, because of the personality of the show. Even though Hey Arnold! is cartoony and comedic, it doesn't create a bright, colorful universe where people can get be smashed by giant hammers and it's funny and characters can have multiple personalities and the audience simply accepts it because continuity isn't the point of the show. These things can all apply to shows like Chowder, SpongeBob, Flapjack, Adventure Time etc. I think this is what Greenblatt means by similar tone. On the design standpoint, the similarities should be obvious. If they aren't, let me clarify: stretchy noodle-like arms and legs that often lack elbows, bulging eyes, (doesn't apply to AT until certain moments) overuse of the smear technique, random detailed/live-action clips or frames for comedic effect, exaggerated facial expressions to the point of disproportionate, and the list goes on.
Of course I'm not just limiting them to those shows, there are a lot of crappy shows that use these too, and I guess this is where people get the idea that American animation is unoriginal. I can talk about Butch Hartman's stuff but if I do I'll want to physically hurt someone.
Anyway, the only real reason I'm saying this is not really to defend the way Japan does things or to say American animation is any worse, just saying it's kind of unfair to say all anime is the same when most American animation on TV will tend to superficially appear the same and it all derives from the techniques taught to be acceptable in the market for both medias.
I agree with you entirely Giant Trope, its just that some of these so called "professionals" in the animation community act like 5 year olds as opposed to actual professions. I don't know maybe this is ironic for me to call them out for having brash statements when I just did the same thing but I just can't help but think that sites such as Cartoon Brew have lost the 'point' behind being a site dedicated to the animation community as a whole. Of course the video game industry and fanbase is far from a happy place where everyone gets along and people don't look like idiots over the stupidest little topic, but it just makes me a bit despressed that the animation community is such a big mess. Maybe that's why I'm starting to lose some respect for them.
See, here's where you've lost me, because (a) none of those shows you listed have all of those qualities (Chowder has solid elbows, Adventure Time doesn't have those random detailed/live-action clips, etc.), and (b) those are just... comedic cartoon qualities. That's like complaining about action shows having action in them. Besides design-wise, they're all pretty different.
Solid, meaty elbows with a sense of structure. Bright, psychedelic palette with a 60s influence. Static patterns everywhere. More organic shapes in the characters.
Limbs that taper at the joint and half the time go rubber. Far more muted color scheme; clearly going for a more vintage look here. Characters have a more graphic sensibility than the characters of Chowder. Also uses static patterns, but for the most part they're just watercolor samples rather than actual... patterns. I don't know how to word it, but hopefully you get the point.
ALL RUBBER HOSE, ALL THE TIME. Pretty much no real structure in these characters No static patterns, or even any sort of gradation in the coloring. Bright, garish colors. Clearly going for a childish look here.
Now, I know that you're not really trying to attack American cartoons here. You're just saying that American cartoons all look the same just like anime all looks the same, right? Well, after I catch the bus and head back home, I'll continue my post.
Quick edit:
While I've got issues with Cartoon Brew myself, you gotta understand that a lot of crap goes on in the industry that has made a lot of the CB-ers pretty crotchety. I'd say that half of the anger on CartoonBrew is irrational, and the other half comes from bitter experiences that have colored their view on things forever.
How many characters in this can you identify? Whereas if you used anime characters, you would have a much harder time trying to figure out who's who and most often than not, the deciding factor of the character's individuality is the shape of their hair. That said, different artists DO have differing art styles, and I don't deny that. However, American cartoons generally have a greater amount of variety in design.
And just for the record I don't hate anime and what not. Nor am I: OMG AMERICAS THE GREATEST YEUH