This will be just a short little retrospective on TSL...I was probably one of the games' most vocal critics in the past. I had my reasons. But upon replaying it, I've come to a different conclusion.
While the game takes great liberties (which I disagree with) with the backstory of KQ and retcons a lot of the older games, the game's story in and of itself is a damn good one. They managed to recapture the atmosphere, fairy tale references, and for a bunch of people working for free, they created a very beautiful game with awesome music.
The game doesn't work very well as a standalone game, and does rely a bit too much on nostalgia, but perhaps that's because it's a fan game and not so much any flaw of the writers. The game was long awaited and many fans had invested a lot of emotions into it and it wouldn't have delivered if it didn't have an ample dose of nostalgia.
I think their company would be a great go-to company if the KQ license were to ever fall into another company's hands, with some modifications if it were a commercial game:
-I would not touch or retcon the backstory of the original games.
-I would not establish The Black Cloak Society as having anything even remotely to do with any KQ game prior to KQ5. No "the Black Cloak Society is responsible for everything that went bad in the previous games"
-I would make it a standalone game, the same way the previous KQs were, with very few callbacks to previous games.
-I would focus more on fairy tales/myths/the fantasy element rather than on character development.
-I'd use a totally new land as the setting, as all the previous games o.
In a fan game, all those things (the focus on nostalgia and character development, going back to the Green Isles, etc) work, because a fan game is supposed to be partly a nostalgic revisit with old friends who you've come to love, but in a commercial game, it wouldn't work.
But I do think the writers of TSL are very talented, and probably are even better now than when TSL was written (a decade ago or so), and I think I can honestly say at this point I'd trust the KQ series in their hands--Hopefully they'd take the series beyond a KQ9.
I only played Episode 1. I hear it gets much better after the first episode, but I still haven't had a strong desire to give the other episodes a try.
I was very disappointed in Episode 1. It didn't even feel like a King's Quest; it was so dreary, there was very little gameplay and the voice acting was very subpar. Worst of all, the writing was incredibly amateurish. I was shocked that the project manager or editor let the game be released in that condition. These are areas that should have been much, much stronger, even in a game with a small budget.
I would never want this team to get control of the series in any kind of official way. At the same time, I applaud them for their dedication and hard work. Technically, the game was quite impressive for a fan game, and I thought the music was effective. The graphics and animation were also very nice.
I would have rather had someone like that Chris Warren of Himalaya/AGDI (Mage's Initiation) helm new KQ game projects. The AGDI games were, hands down, the best of the non-official KQ games. Just give them a decent budget to create a new engine or whatever else is needed, and I am sure we would get an epic new adventure worthy of the KQ name.
I enjoyed some aspects of the first 3 episodes (haven't gotten further), but wouldn't want them to be canon, or for the writers to go near a new game (respectfully)... I can't think of anyone that would be an easy pick to write new games, though.
I'm holding my breath that Jane Jensen manages a return to form with Mobius... Cognition felt like TV-level writing.. or soon-to-be-canceled-psychological tv thriller quality.. I do miss the days where Jane's games didn't feel like I was reading a cheap bargin-bin mystery thriller... I have a pile of hope that these folks, with more experience, keep going and nail it one day (or step-it-up, in Jane's case). Then they'd be perfect to helm a new KQ.
TSL is what it is: an amateurish fan game, which the developers used to tune their skills in order to go into commercial game design. For a free game it does deserve my respect for the work that trhe team put into it, but all in all I wouldn't call it a great game by itself, as if it had been a commerical game I would have been rather disappointed had I bought it. I never played further than episode 2.
I thought Jane Jensen had very little to do with cognition that she more less essentially offered advice and helped with editing but POS did most of the work.
That's more or less an accurate description of Jane's role. She's our Story Consultant--gives us feedback on the outlines, does an editing pass of each script, occasional meetings to review the design, etc. But by and large, all the writing and design is our own in Cognition. Moebius, on the other hand, the writing & design are all from Jane's hand, while Phoenix Online is the developer--art, programming, anything outside of design, essentially.
But back to TSL. Honestly, yeah, the writing and design could've used help and a few more passes. But it was also written YEARS ago and the voice recorded YEARS ago, and it's a volunteer project--there was no going back to massively rewrite, redesign, and rerecord everything. It'll be interesting to see what people think of Episode 5, actually, because that Episode was written much more recently, and after we'd had feedback on the other Episodes (plus many more years of experience in general under our belts).
And if (a big hypothetical if) we were ever to do an official, canon, King's Quest, we wouldn't do it the same way we did TSL. TSL's a labor of love from fangirls and fanboys--it's flawed but done with heart, and no matter how flawed it is, we're always going to be proud of it.
That's more or less an accurate description of Jane's role. She's our Story Consultant--gives us feedback on the outlines, does an editing pass of each script, occasional meetings to review the design, etc. But by and large, all the writing and design is our own in Cognition. Moebius, on the other hand, the writing & design are all from Jane's hand, while Phoenix Online is the developer--art, programming, anything outside of design, essentially.
But back to TSL. Honestly, yeah, the writing and design could've used help and a few more passes. But it was also written YEARS ago and the voice recorded YEARS ago, and it's a volunteer project--there was no going back to massively rewrite, redesign, and rerecord everything. It'll be interesting to see what people think of Episode 5, actually, because that Episode was written much more recently, and after we'd had feedback on the other Episodes (plus many more years of experience in general under our belts).
And if (a big hypothetical if) we were ever to do an official, canon, King's Quest, we wouldn't do it the same way we did TSL. TSL's a labor of love from fangirls and fanboys--it's flawed but done with heart, and no matter how flawed it is, we're always going to be proud of it.
I never saw much wrong with the voice acting...So I don't get where that criticism comes from. For a fan game with no budget, it's pretty damn impressive. The only voice I didn't find fitting was the voice actor doing the voice of Saladin, but then it's hard to replace Tony Jay successfully.
Also, while Jason Michael Victor did a terrific job as Graham, I (and I think many others) will always see Josh Mandel as Graham.
The quality & talent varies--I think our leads are all great, but some of the others could be better. And sometimes people did their own recording, with less-than-ideal equipment, so the audio quality on some characters could be better. But, like everything else, the voices were all from fans who were doing it for free.
Also, while Jason Michael Victor did a terrific job as Graham, I (and I think many others) will always see Josh Mandel as Graham.
I respect and admire Josh Mandel to pieces (he's a huge writing/designing talent, no question), but his voice acting work usually sounds so wooden and stilted. Dramatic acting doesn't appear to be his strong suit. I think TSL's Jason Michael Victor is certainly a better actor, but he just didn't seem like the right fit for Graham.
I would have rather had someone like that Chris Warren of Himalaya/AGDI (Mage's Initiation) helm new KQ game projects. The AGDI games were, hands down, the best of the non-official KQ games. Just give them a decent budget to create a new engine or whatever else is needed, and I am sure we would get an epic new adventure worthy of the KQ name.
Personally, while I find the fan games fun... I do not like the directions they chose to take the game... both AGDI's and TSL's... Way too much "black cloak society", and trying to tie all the series together under single prophecies. Both fan series very common similiarities in certain themes.
I'm also not particularly taken by the character closeup artwork the AGDI stuff, they seemed kinda amatuerish (this is not a knock, it just doesn't stand up to the quality of the original sierra games), they look kinda distorted.
I prefer the original stories, and AGDI takes way too many liberties with KQ2's story, and even KQ3. Technically there series are not 'remakes' but more of a retelling of the series. IF KQ1 SCI was more of a 'rebooted' story, they follow more of the path of the KQ1 "rebooted" story, rather the main series following the path of the original KQ1 (KQ2, and KQ3's Daventry set pieces are based on the Daventry in KQ1 AGI, for example, even KQ4 is roughly follows the KQ1-3 route, particularly comparing the fact it was based originally on the AGI graphics, before being boosted to SCI artwork).
I'm much rather see a KQ2 remake that is more of a 1.5:1 remake. Improved narration, and expanded plot here and there, but sticks more to the original, like KQ1SCI to KQ1AGI, but just a few changes here or there plot wise.
AGDI also created a catch-22 for themselves. They have said if they were to make a new game, they won't be using their universe. That means people dying to know how the Father saga ends, won't ever find out. At the same token I wouldn't want their continuity 'replacing' the original canon. I want any new professional game in the series to follow the original continuity. That doesn't mean convoluted story telling and linking every villain together, but a consistency in certain themes, and more stand-alone stories, in a new land or lands to explore.
I'm also not particularly taken by the character closeup artwork the AGDI stuff, they seemed kinda amatuerish (this is not a knock, it just doesn't stand up to the quality of the original sierra games), they look kinda distorted.
I prefer the original stories, and AGDI takes way too many liberties with KQ2's story, and even KQ3. Technically there series are not 'remakes' but more of a retelling of the series. IF KQ1 SCI was more of a 'rebooted' story, they follow more of the path of the KQ1 "rebooted" story, rather the main series following the path of the original KQ1 (KQ2, and KQ3's Daventry set pieces are based on the Daventry in KQ1 AGI, for example, even KQ4 is roughly follows the KQ1-3 route, particularly comparing the fact it was based originally on the AGI graphics, before being boosted to SCI artwork).
You make good points, but if you read Warren's posts on various forums where he shares his thoughts about game design and responds to some of the same criticisms you mention, you may find that he understands very well and maybe agrees with some of the things you are saying. The reason I would feel good with someone like him at the helm of a new adventure project is that he has shown he understands, and is a great fan of, classic adventure gaming, and he can lead full game projects to successful completion on a very small budget. If this were an easy thing to do, more would have done it. Other fan/indie teams came and went, often never releasing a single complete game, but AGDI delivered time and again.
Especially considering the fact that they did these games for free, you have to give them great credit for the high quality of work and overall polish. Although I applaud the efforts of the TSL and IA/IQ teams, those efforts just screamed amateur to me. AGDI games felt almost like playing actual Sierra games. Their KQ3 Redux was a particularly impressive accomplishment. That's why I credit their team leader for making sure everything came together well and got finished.
As for the criticisms of some of the art, yeah, I see what you're saying. That's why I think an ample budget would be needed to get all that stuff up to a higher level.
Basically, based on his record and what he has written, I would trust him to lead a project to create a new adventure game in a series I loved.
I'm sure Baggins has already seen the interview (nothing KQ-related gets by him :-) ), but if anyone here hasn't checked it out, I recommend they do. This is a fascinating, must-read interview. It also explains how Josh Mandel actually got banned from the Sierra building after resigning!
MtnPeak, nope I haven't seen this particular one. It's a new one! This is why I look to the help of other fans to point out new and old nuggets that I may have missed.
"While we deeply love King's Quest here at Telltale, we can confirm that we are no longer working on the franchise," Telltale Senior VP of Publishing Steve Allison told Digital Trends. "There was a time last year that we investigated partnering with third party developers to produce the game as a partnership but decided against outsourcing. We are not privy to what plans Activision has for the franchise, if any."
Rights holder Activision has its own episodic King's Quest series. The Silver Lining was originally conceived as a tribute project by fans, but developer Phoenix Online Studios later gained non-commercial license permission from Activision.
I really hate that The Silver Lining is regarded as the last "official" King's Quest in some news coverage. I dreaded that would happen. I think TSL is rather amateurish and is a poor representative for the series. :-(
And to make sure it's clear, TSL is not an official game! Those are Joystiq's words there, not ours. We love KQ and we love our work, but it's still a fangame.
Though it is technically owned by Activision, so I think that's maybe what they were referring to there.
And to make sure it's clear, TSL is not an official game! Those are Joystiq's words there, not ours. We love KQ and we love our work, but it's still a fangame.
Though it is technically owned by Activision, so I think that's maybe what they were referring to there.
By the way, you guys are great and seem to be improving a lot. I can only imagine how much even better you guys will continue to get in coming years. I know I look forward to that and wish you huge success, so hope you don't take any criticism personally or like we aren't still rooting for you guys to reach higher and accomplish even more.
To MtnPeak, I just wanted to say thanks for the compliments on our work over at Phoenix Online!, since I can't reply in the KQ forums anymore. I think we've come a long way as well. And we do like getting constructive feedback so we can continue improving.
I thought there were only seven according to steam there are seven.
The steam collection only has the first 7. It is missing the original KQ1 AGI version. And the KQ7 version they include is incompatible on modern machines, its 32-bit windows only. NO go on a 64-bit.
GOG.com, has better collections you can get all eight for the same price, all using dosbox, except for the eighth game. There is a bug in the eighth game that will require use of daemontools if you don't have a cd/dvd drive installed in your computer.
You can get all three packs for $19 about the same price as Steam's but having most of the games.
However, the GOG pack currently does not have the remake of KQ1, althoug that will probably be changed in the future, as they have been adding in both versions (if there is an original and remake) games into some of there other packs. See Quest For GLory, Leisure Suit Larry, and Police Quest so far.
Comments
While the game takes great liberties (which I disagree with) with the backstory of KQ and retcons a lot of the older games, the game's story in and of itself is a damn good one. They managed to recapture the atmosphere, fairy tale references, and for a bunch of people working for free, they created a very beautiful game with awesome music.
The game doesn't work very well as a standalone game, and does rely a bit too much on nostalgia, but perhaps that's because it's a fan game and not so much any flaw of the writers. The game was long awaited and many fans had invested a lot of emotions into it and it wouldn't have delivered if it didn't have an ample dose of nostalgia.
I think their company would be a great go-to company if the KQ license were to ever fall into another company's hands, with some modifications if it were a commercial game:
-I would not touch or retcon the backstory of the original games.
-I would not establish The Black Cloak Society as having anything even remotely to do with any KQ game prior to KQ5. No "the Black Cloak Society is responsible for everything that went bad in the previous games"
-I would make it a standalone game, the same way the previous KQs were, with very few callbacks to previous games.
-I would focus more on fairy tales/myths/the fantasy element rather than on character development.
-I'd use a totally new land as the setting, as all the previous games o.
In a fan game, all those things (the focus on nostalgia and character development, going back to the Green Isles, etc) work, because a fan game is supposed to be partly a nostalgic revisit with old friends who you've come to love, but in a commercial game, it wouldn't work.
But I do think the writers of TSL are very talented, and probably are even better now than when TSL was written (a decade ago or so), and I think I can honestly say at this point I'd trust the KQ series in their hands--Hopefully they'd take the series beyond a KQ9.
I was very disappointed in Episode 1. It didn't even feel like a King's Quest; it was so dreary, there was very little gameplay and the voice acting was very subpar. Worst of all, the writing was incredibly amateurish. I was shocked that the project manager or editor let the game be released in that condition. These are areas that should have been much, much stronger, even in a game with a small budget.
I would never want this team to get control of the series in any kind of official way. At the same time, I applaud them for their dedication and hard work. Technically, the game was quite impressive for a fan game, and I thought the music was effective. The graphics and animation were also very nice.
I would have rather had someone like that Chris Warren of Himalaya/AGDI (Mage's Initiation) helm new KQ game projects. The AGDI games were, hands down, the best of the non-official KQ games. Just give them a decent budget to create a new engine or whatever else is needed, and I am sure we would get an epic new adventure worthy of the KQ name.
I'm holding my breath that Jane Jensen manages a return to form with Mobius... Cognition felt like TV-level writing.. or soon-to-be-canceled-psychological tv thriller quality.. I do miss the days where Jane's games didn't feel like I was reading a cheap bargin-bin mystery thriller... I have a pile of hope that these folks, with more experience, keep going and nail it one day (or step-it-up, in Jane's case). Then they'd be perfect to helm a new KQ.
But back to TSL. Honestly, yeah, the writing and design could've used help and a few more passes. But it was also written YEARS ago and the voice recorded YEARS ago, and it's a volunteer project--there was no going back to massively rewrite, redesign, and rerecord everything. It'll be interesting to see what people think of Episode 5, actually, because that Episode was written much more recently, and after we'd had feedback on the other Episodes (plus many more years of experience in general under our belts).
And if (a big hypothetical if) we were ever to do an official, canon, King's Quest, we wouldn't do it the same way we did TSL. TSL's a labor of love from fangirls and fanboys--it's flawed but done with heart, and no matter how flawed it is, we're always going to be proud of it.
I never saw much wrong with the voice acting...So I don't get where that criticism comes from. For a fan game with no budget, it's pretty damn impressive. The only voice I didn't find fitting was the voice actor doing the voice of Saladin, but then it's hard to replace Tony Jay successfully.
Also, while Jason Michael Victor did a terrific job as Graham, I (and I think many others) will always see Josh Mandel as Graham.
I respect and admire Josh Mandel to pieces (he's a huge writing/designing talent, no question), but his voice acting work usually sounds so wooden and stilted. Dramatic acting doesn't appear to be his strong suit. I think TSL's Jason Michael Victor is certainly a better actor, but he just didn't seem like the right fit for Graham.
He actually wanted to do more with Graham, but as the story goes, was told to downplay it by Roberta.
Personally, while I find the fan games fun... I do not like the directions they chose to take the game... both AGDI's and TSL's... Way too much "black cloak society", and trying to tie all the series together under single prophecies. Both fan series very common similiarities in certain themes.
I'm also not particularly taken by the character closeup artwork the AGDI stuff, they seemed kinda amatuerish (this is not a knock, it just doesn't stand up to the quality of the original sierra games), they look kinda distorted.
I prefer the original stories, and AGDI takes way too many liberties with KQ2's story, and even KQ3. Technically there series are not 'remakes' but more of a retelling of the series. IF KQ1 SCI was more of a 'rebooted' story, they follow more of the path of the KQ1 "rebooted" story, rather the main series following the path of the original KQ1 (KQ2, and KQ3's Daventry set pieces are based on the Daventry in KQ1 AGI, for example, even KQ4 is roughly follows the KQ1-3 route, particularly comparing the fact it was based originally on the AGI graphics, before being boosted to SCI artwork).
I'm much rather see a KQ2 remake that is more of a 1.5:1 remake. Improved narration, and expanded plot here and there, but sticks more to the original, like KQ1SCI to KQ1AGI, but just a few changes here or there plot wise.
AGDI also created a catch-22 for themselves. They have said if they were to make a new game, they won't be using their universe. That means people dying to know how the Father saga ends, won't ever find out. At the same token I wouldn't want their continuity 'replacing' the original canon. I want any new professional game in the series to follow the original continuity. That doesn't mean convoluted story telling and linking every villain together, but a consistency in certain themes, and more stand-alone stories, in a new land or lands to explore.
You make good points, but if you read Warren's posts on various forums where he shares his thoughts about game design and responds to some of the same criticisms you mention, you may find that he understands very well and maybe agrees with some of the things you are saying. The reason I would feel good with someone like him at the helm of a new adventure project is that he has shown he understands, and is a great fan of, classic adventure gaming, and he can lead full game projects to successful completion on a very small budget. If this were an easy thing to do, more would have done it. Other fan/indie teams came and went, often never releasing a single complete game, but AGDI delivered time and again.
Especially considering the fact that they did these games for free, you have to give them great credit for the high quality of work and overall polish. Although I applaud the efforts of the TSL and IA/IQ teams, those efforts just screamed amateur to me. AGDI games felt almost like playing actual Sierra games. Their KQ3 Redux was a particularly impressive accomplishment. That's why I credit their team leader for making sure everything came together well and got finished.
As for the criticisms of some of the art, yeah, I see what you're saying. That's why I think an ample budget would be needed to get all that stuff up to a higher level.
Basically, based on his record and what he has written, I would trust him to lead a project to create a new adventure game in a series I loved.
I hadn't known about this. He talks more about his background and his time working on KQ1 remake here:
http://www.adventuregamers.com/articles/view/24002
I'm sure Baggins has already seen the interview (nothing KQ-related gets by him :-) ), but if anyone here hasn't checked it out, I recommend they do. This is a fascinating, must-read interview. It also explains how Josh Mandel actually got banned from the Sierra building after resigning!
I really hate that The Silver Lining is regarded as the last "official" King's Quest in some news coverage. I dreaded that would happen. I think TSL is rather amateurish and is a poor representative for the series. :-(
Though it is technically owned by Activision, so I think that's maybe what they were referring to there.
By the way, you guys are great and seem to be improving a lot. I can only imagine how much even better you guys will continue to get in coming years. I know I look forward to that and wish you huge success, so hope you don't take any criticism personally or like we aren't still rooting for you guys to reach higher and accomplish even more.
The steam collection only has the first 7. It is missing the original KQ1 AGI version. And the KQ7 version they include is incompatible on modern machines, its 32-bit windows only. NO go on a 64-bit.
GOG.com, has better collections you can get all eight for the same price, all using dosbox, except for the eighth game. There is a bug in the eighth game that will require use of daemontools if you don't have a cd/dvd drive installed in your computer.
You can get all three packs for $19 about the same price as Steam's but having most of the games.
However, the GOG pack currently does not have the remake of KQ1, althoug that will probably be changed in the future, as they have been adding in both versions (if there is an original and remake) games into some of there other packs. See Quest For GLory, Leisure Suit Larry, and Police Quest so far.