I think most people are figuring the way stuff has been going down lately is how it is going to continue going down. I mean the choice you have between Doug or Carley in ep 1 has literally no impact they are completely functionally the same (near a reskin) except Carley has the very slight boon that she allows you to tell people you are a killer which helps since if you don't they will all know in the worst possible way, Lilly tells them.
Either way there is no hint at any of it counting.
Also there is that awful thing with the normal UI where if you protect Carley it sais "Carley will remember this" literally a second later she gets shot in the face.
I dunno, I love the story but still feel as if the marketing could be done in a better way considering the whole Mass Effect thing. Gamers have just gone trough this exact thing and now they market it as the same thing you were suposed to be able to do in Mass Effect, now the Mass Effect thing is probably debatable but either way in that game it is a complete illusion of choice over actual choice.
Tl;dr: gamers are in a butthurt fase right now, and this I guess doesn't make it any better.
Call me weird, but I've never played mass effect so I don't know what happened, it's just the fact how he's complaining about limited choices, by heck we're only on ep.3. Plus yeah I'm still a bit peed about them dying but I know a few things that could mean there alive. Like a guy that gets shot in the comics and lives and his was name was Carl and ours is Carl ey ect but it's false hope if anything:(.
Bingo! The ME3 fiasco was the epitome of gamer entitlement. The game was FILLED with fanservice, but people wanted what? Some 90 minute OVA as well? It was the only time I really wanted BioWare to come out and simply say 'No. This is our story and this is how it wraps up' (Just like any other author/scriptwriter/screenplay would). And if there are people who make changes to that story its the people that PAY them, not the movie goers, the book readers, the TV watchers (And no, we dont pay those people, we pay for the final product, their salaries are determined well before production begins) The level of entitlement in gaming is out of control and I think it because we have this close and ANONYMOUS connection to the devs via the internet.
This is why I was against Bioware remaking their ending of ME3... it opened a really nasty can of worms....
The can was opened when they lied and got caught for it, and then acted childish while releasing the gaming press on gamers.
I don't know where you are from, but here in my country people don't like being lied to then treated like an idiot by the liar whose caught in the act of their lies.
Maybe, I've done some beta-testing in the past. And most devs I've talked to tend to avoid things like their own message boards. One told me, and I paraphrase, "If we made games the player's say that they want, the game would be horrible and they'd still not be happy."
What players want, and what they think they want, are usually not the same.
The can was opened when they lied and got caught for it, and then acted childish while releasing the gaming press on gamers.
I don't know where you are from, but here in my country people don't like being lied to then treated like an idiot by the liar whose caught in the act of their lies.
I'm not saying Bioware didn't screw up initially.
I'm saying it played out badly, both due to the player/consumer base, their PR interaction, and how Bioware resolved it.
Now you have a horde of random internet peoplez who think they can whine about anything and get immediate and unrealistic developer created game change.
Call me weird, but I've never played mass effect so I don't know what happened, it's just the fact how he's complaining about limited choices, by heck we're only on ep.3. Plus yeah I'm still a bit peed about them dying but I know a few things that could mean there alive. Like a guy that gets shot in the comics and lives and his was name was Carl and ours is Carl ey ect but it's false hope if anything:(.
I sorta agree I mean it is a litle bit early to cry wolf yet they could turn things around, but ye it generally just seems like they've exhausted their options on how to make choices count.
Not having played Mass Effect isn't that odd I mean it is a very different type of game. Mass Effect could've gone down into historie as a masterpiece, but now it is a broken masterpiece really, so I don't really advice people to play it anymore. The first 2 though are def must plays though XD anyways way to off topic.
but trust me starting up the entitlement issue again would be awful
Oh god, NO not the entitled debate again NO just no. That shit went way to far on ME3 and is going to again here please NO!
Technically you are entitled to anything the marketing campaign sais you will get with the game, and the only way I can end this is say Bioware bended towards the people complaining so even they saw the correct edge of that question.
Because thats exactly how these people are starting to sound now.
And yes, people are entitled to everything the market campaign says:
But when they misinterpret the feature, that is not the Devs fault, nor are they now obliged to indulge YOUR version of what you thought said feature was going to be. The rage:$ ratio is off here, people.
Because thats exactly how these people are starting to sound now.
And yes, people are entitled to everything the market campaign says:
But when they misinterpret the feature, that is not the Devs fault, nor are they now obliged to indulge YOUR version of what you thought said feature was going to be. The rage:$ ratio is off here, people.
Actually, it is, or, rather, their marketing department.
Hey, Xarne
What you are entitled to can be summed up with this one dilly.
If you buy a massage you get exactly what is advertised which normally is a massage. Anything extra would costs more money.
If you buy a game you are entitled to exactly what is advertised and nothing other than that (atleast in most european countries with trade acts and so forth where advertisements are legally binding). So if a game markets itself as Mass Effect, a tailor made story basically "not a story where you only end up with ending A, B and C" (direct quote) then you are entitled to exactly that. Which is why marketing is take way to lightly theese days, game developers don't need to fix their game they just need to fix their advertising.
Sadly when something is said it can't be unsaid so they need to stick to what is said, unless they want alot of bitching and whining. The only thing Bioware should've done technically is allow a refund for those players who wished it, which is what you normally get when you are unhappy with a product and feel like they falsely advertised.
Because thats exactly how these people are starting to sound now.
And yes, people are entitled to everything the market campaign says:
But when they misinterpret the feature, that is not the Devs fault, nor are they now obliged to indulge YOUR version of what you thought said feature was going to be. The rage:$ ratio is off here, people.
Dude, they killed Carley. While tears are cheaper than lotion, I expect more from my $25 waifu adventure.
In all seriousness though, it may just be too early to tell if our decisions won't have lasting consequences. We've still got two more episodes this season.
Your post is is spot on, in my opinion. I didn't like the Mass effect 3 ending but I think I was more disappointed with the precedent that was set after all was said and done. It was a shame, really.
Actually, it is, or, rather, their marketing department.
Hey, Xarne
Fine, I'll bow out of this one. I'll admit I didnt go over the features page with a fine tooth comb, probably because I use to be the guy starting threads like this until I realized you'll ALWAYS be disappointed with a game if you follow the features page. They're trying to sell a product thats what the marketing team does; sells you a dream!
Later
In all seriousness though, it may just be too early to tell if our decisions won't have lasting consequences. We've still got two more episodes this season.
In all seriousness though, it may just be too early to tell if our decisions won't have lasting consequences. We've still got two more episodes this season. [/QUOTE]
Exactly what I'm saying
I would say, as someone who knows what's coming, to wait until the end of the series to complain about whether or not your choices had any meaning. If you still don't think they did, we'd love to hear why, and suggestions for improvement. But just like the zombie apocalypse, bad things will always happen, despite your best efforts.
i have a feeling we will be pleasantly surprised by the end
"I have a feeling we will be pleasantly surprised by the end
I would say, as someone who knows what's coming, to wait until the end of the series to complain about whether or not your choices had any meaning. If you still don't think they did, we'd love to hear why, and suggestions for improvement. But just like the zombie apocalypse, bad things will always happen, despite your best efforts."
Once you find out wrestling is fake you can never go back to believing it's real.
As for the "wait until the end of the series to complain about whether or not your choices had any meaning," I'd expect a conman to say the same thing when swindling someone out of money too, because if you didn't you'd have no one left to swindle before you left town.
Stop complaining about people complaining about the game.
I love the people whining about people making reasonable criticisms of the game. It's as if the fact that someone wrote out their objections somehow lessened your fragile enjoyment of the game. It's also hilarious, how criticisms of the game are rarely met with reasoned rebuttal, and instead generate so many ad hominem attacks.
Stop complaining about people complaining about the game.
I love the people whining about people making reasonable criticisms of the game. It's as if the fact that someone wrote out their objections somehow lessened your fragile enjoyment of the game. It's also hilarious, how criticisms of the game are rarely met with reasoned rebuttal, and instead generate so many ad hominem attacks.
Ahhhh, sorry, don't take this as a flood please, but I can't help but to write this:
Stop complaining about people complaining about people complaining about the game!
I've said this before in another thread: How is everyone's reading comprehension so low? Telltale's ads for this game are 100% legitimate. You choose to read every ad they put out as "we're making a different game for every player who buys it!" This was never suggested. Terms like "meaningful" and "profound" imply that they'll mean something to you, not to the narrative, and never was it suggested otherwise. Arguing that there are no "lasting" decisions 3/5ths of the way through the game is willful ignorance.
None of these criticisms are legitimate. Everybody is taking every word to mean whatever they wish to believe it meant. If you're upset it's because you got buried too deep in the hype and built a game that didn't exist inside your own mind, and are angry as you realize that the real deal doesn't live up to your imagination. Seriously, nobody ever suggested branching narratives, in interviews or ads. Take it easy.
I would say, as someone who knows what's coming, to wait until the end of the series to complain about whether or not your choices had any meaning. If you still don't think they did, we'd love to hear why, and suggestions for improvement. But just like the zombie apocalypse, bad things will always happen, despite your best efforts."
Once you find out wrestling is fake you can never go back to believing it's real.
As for the "wait until the end of the series to complain about whether or not your choices had any meaning," I'd expect a conman to say the same thing when swindling someone out of money too, because if you didn't you'd have no one left to swindle before you left town.
And yet has the full game been released yet? No we are only half way through it. How about we wait until Episode 5 has come out and everyone has played it then we can discuss if everyone's choices have or have not had any type of effect on the story at all instead of jumping the damn gun and going "We basically get the same ending no matter what. Even though we are only half way through the game." The game is not finished till Episode 5 has finished.
Ahhhh, sorry, don't take this as a flood please, but I can't help but to write this:
Stop complaining about people complaining about people complaining about the game!
Edit: I promise I won't flood ever ever again!
Tbh I think it was needed.........and it was damn well funny
Ahhhh, sorry, don't take this as a flood please, but I can't help but to write this:
Stop complaining about people complaining about people complaining about the game!
Edit: I promise I won't flood ever ever again!
Do you grasp that you've demonstrated my point? I don't imagine you do, but, hey, thanks!
"Play the Walking Dead! Thousands of unique decisions that have little effect on the gameplay but people become violently divided over! Like any game, we don't really have branching storylines, because that's fucking impossible. Get invested, lose everything, claim to hate the game, but keep begging for Carley back!"
I posted this before and will again. Illusion of choice is everywhere. See those loops? They all go back to the same line. Just like Walking Dead.
Wait. That picture makes no sense. Nintendo is primarily known for Zelda and Paper Mario, which should definitely be straight lines. There's literally just a bunch of side quests that you HAVE to do in order to progress the story. That's just called THE STORY. It's completely linear.
Meanwhile, Square-Enix developed Drakengard, with three different endings. And The World Ends With You with extra super special bonus endings. And the Star Ocean Series all has different endings. And Chrono Cross had alternate endings.
And Square made Chrono Trigger where you could receive one of 11 different endings depending on when you beat the game, how you fought the boss, and where you fought him.
And Bioware has changed since Baldur's Gate. For instance, the endings to Mass Effect 1 and 2 were drastically different based on a ton of choices you make. Mass Effect 3 was the outlier.
Seriously, that chart is bad. It's like the person who made it has never actually played any games by those companies.
On a side note, I think that people are confusing "a variety of choices" with "unlimited choice." No game will give you unlimited choice to determine the ending. If a game has 500 choices, it still doesn't have unlimited choice.
The problem is, everyone is obsessed with somehow being robbed of having the one choice they want being taken from them, to the point that they ignore the other choices that affect the story, character relationships, and interpersonal dynamics.
And Bioware has changed since Baldur's Gate. For instance, the endings to Mass Effect 1 and 2 were drastically different based on a ton of choices you make. Mass Effect 3 was the outlier.
I can't say too much about the chart, aside from the fact that I think that it captures the BioWare choices pretty well. In every choice there is one that's clearly good and one that's clearly bad (or paragon/renegade) which deviates from the main story in only a slight way only to instantly loop back in on itself. You can play the Dark Side story of Knights of the Old Republic, but you'll still go to each planet for the same reasons, fight the same bosses and face the same finale. Just because your character's motives are different doesn't make it a different game.
And a game can have any number of endings but never branch before that point and still be linear. Just because Silent Hill has multiple endings doesn't notably make it a game of choice.
The walking dead is just a franchise label, the game's all about people!
sure the story is slightly linear, but they can still patch that later with some sort of huge DLC, imagine the replay value, go though again and:
SAVE: Larry, Duck, Carley, Doug, Katjaa and future people.
NEW CHOICES: what if you saved Clem first at the seige?
NEW GROUP: what if Travis joined you?
INTUITION: Insist that Mark is OK, see the St Johns squirm.
the list goes on. Its very time consuming for telltale, but it seems like a good idea, despite the fractal spreadsheet nightmare of story-lines they would need to write and create, it would at least tide people over. it would up re-sales, and I know I would buy this shit if they made it.
I think that the people that say wait until the final episode is done before complaining would still side with TTG at the end of episode 5 even if they are proven con artists. Not so much because they would want to mind you, but just to save face.
I don't have a dog in the fight anymore, my mind was made up long ago and I won't be changing it. They misrepresented their product. I won't buy anything else of theirs. Case closed.
I think that the people that say wait until the final episode is done before complaining would still side with TTG at the end of episode 5 even if they are proven con artists. Not so much because they would want to mind you, but just to save face.
I don't have a dog in the fight anymore, my mind was made up long ago and I won't be changing it. They misrepresented their product. I won't buy anything else of theirs. Case closed.
Comments
Oh definitely. Without a doubt. The fact people are getting so upset shows that TTG had an epic win here.
If people didn't care, I'd be worried.
The can was opened when they lied and got caught for it, and then acted childish while releasing the gaming press on gamers.
I don't know where you are from, but here in my country people don't like being lied to then treated like an idiot by the liar whose caught in the act of their lies.
What players want, and what they think they want, are usually not the same.
I'm not saying Bioware didn't screw up initially.
I'm saying it played out badly, both due to the player/consumer base, their PR interaction, and how Bioware resolved it.
Now you have a horde of random internet peoplez who think they can whine about anything and get immediate and unrealistic developer created game change.
Not having played Mass Effect isn't that odd I mean it is a very different type of game. Mass Effect could've gone down into historie as a masterpiece, but now it is a broken masterpiece really, so I don't really advice people to play it anymore. The first 2 though are def must plays though XD anyways way to off topic.
but trust me starting up the entitlement issue again would be awful
Because thats exactly how these people are starting to sound now.
And yes, people are entitled to everything the market campaign says:
But when they misinterpret the feature, that is not the Devs fault, nor are they now obliged to indulge YOUR version of what you thought said feature was going to be. The rage:$ ratio is off here, people.
Actually, it is, or, rather, their marketing department.
Hey, Xarne
If you buy a massage you get exactly what is advertised which normally is a massage. Anything extra would costs more money.
If you buy a game you are entitled to exactly what is advertised and nothing other than that (atleast in most european countries with trade acts and so forth where advertisements are legally binding). So if a game markets itself as Mass Effect, a tailor made story basically "not a story where you only end up with ending A, B and C" (direct quote) then you are entitled to exactly that. Which is why marketing is take way to lightly theese days, game developers don't need to fix their game they just need to fix their advertising.
Sadly when something is said it can't be unsaid so they need to stick to what is said, unless they want alot of bitching and whining. The only thing Bioware should've done technically is allow a refund for those players who wished it, which is what you normally get when you are unhappy with a product and feel like they falsely advertised.
Dude, they killed Carley. While tears are cheaper than lotion, I expect more from my $25 waifu adventure.
In all seriousness though, it may just be too early to tell if our decisions won't have lasting consequences. We've still got two more episodes this season.
Your post is is spot on, in my opinion. I didn't like the Mass effect 3 ending but I think I was more disappointed with the precedent that was set after all was said and done. It was a shame, really.
Fine, I'll bow out of this one. I'll admit I didnt go over the features page with a fine tooth comb, probably because I use to be the guy starting threads like this until I realized you'll ALWAYS be disappointed with a game if you follow the features page. They're trying to sell a product thats what the marketing team does; sells you a dream!
Later
Bears repeating, IN BIG LETTERS and bolded.
the walking dead
you better remember how to use batteries!
DAMN.
In all seriousness though, it may just be too early to tell if our decisions won't have lasting consequences. We've still got two more episodes this season. [/QUOTE]
Exactly what I'm saying
Yup. Also, a dev (I think it's a dev) just posted this in another thread;
http://www.telltalegames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=671854&postcount=465
Looks like pretty good news to me.
Wow thats awesome!
here is what they said
i have a feeling we will be pleasantly surprised by the end
Once you find out wrestling is fake you can never go back to believing it's real.
As for the "wait until the end of the series to complain about whether or not your choices had any meaning," I'd expect a conman to say the same thing when swindling someone out of money too, because if you didn't you'd have no one left to swindle before you left town.
Stop complaining about people complaining about the game.
I love the people whining about people making reasonable criticisms of the game. It's as if the fact that someone wrote out their objections somehow lessened your fragile enjoyment of the game. It's also hilarious, how criticisms of the game are rarely met with reasoned rebuttal, and instead generate so many ad hominem attacks.
Ahhhh, sorry, don't take this as a flood please, but I can't help but to write this:
Stop complaining about people complaining about people complaining about the game!
Edit: I promise I won't flood ever ever again!
None of these criticisms are legitimate. Everybody is taking every word to mean whatever they wish to believe it meant. If you're upset it's because you got buried too deep in the hype and built a game that didn't exist inside your own mind, and are angry as you realize that the real deal doesn't live up to your imagination. Seriously, nobody ever suggested branching narratives, in interviews or ads. Take it easy.
And yet has the full game been released yet? No we are only half way through it. How about we wait until Episode 5 has come out and everyone has played it then we can discuss if everyone's choices have or have not had any type of effect on the story at all instead of jumping the damn gun and going "We basically get the same ending no matter what. Even though we are only half way through the game." The game is not finished till Episode 5 has finished.
Tbh I think it was needed.........and it was damn well funny
Or slitting our wrist.
I got one for you; "Play the game and experience the depths of Human Suffering, visit the forums and experience the depths of Human Entitlement."
Agreed.
Wait. That picture makes no sense. Nintendo is primarily known for Zelda and Paper Mario, which should definitely be straight lines. There's literally just a bunch of side quests that you HAVE to do in order to progress the story. That's just called THE STORY. It's completely linear.
Meanwhile, Square-Enix developed Drakengard, with three different endings. And The World Ends With You with extra super special bonus endings. And the Star Ocean Series all has different endings. And Chrono Cross had alternate endings.
And Square made Chrono Trigger where you could receive one of 11 different endings depending on when you beat the game, how you fought the boss, and where you fought him.
And Bioware has changed since Baldur's Gate. For instance, the endings to Mass Effect 1 and 2 were drastically different based on a ton of choices you make. Mass Effect 3 was the outlier.
Seriously, that chart is bad. It's like the person who made it has never actually played any games by those companies.
On a side note, I think that people are confusing "a variety of choices" with "unlimited choice." No game will give you unlimited choice to determine the ending. If a game has 500 choices, it still doesn't have unlimited choice.
The problem is, everyone is obsessed with somehow being robbed of having the one choice they want being taken from them, to the point that they ignore the other choices that affect the story, character relationships, and interpersonal dynamics.
My question to you now is, where does Super Mario RPG fall on this
I can't say too much about the chart, aside from the fact that I think that it captures the BioWare choices pretty well. In every choice there is one that's clearly good and one that's clearly bad (or paragon/renegade) which deviates from the main story in only a slight way only to instantly loop back in on itself. You can play the Dark Side story of Knights of the Old Republic, but you'll still go to each planet for the same reasons, fight the same bosses and face the same finale. Just because your character's motives are different doesn't make it a different game.
And a game can have any number of endings but never branch before that point and still be linear. Just because Silent Hill has multiple endings doesn't notably make it a game of choice.
sure the story is slightly linear, but they can still patch that later with some sort of huge DLC, imagine the replay value, go though again and:
SAVE: Larry, Duck, Carley, Doug, Katjaa and future people.
NEW CHOICES: what if you saved Clem first at the seige?
NEW GROUP: what if Travis joined you?
INTUITION: Insist that Mark is OK, see the St Johns squirm.
the list goes on. Its very time consuming for telltale, but it seems like a good idea, despite the fractal spreadsheet nightmare of story-lines they would need to write and create, it would at least tide people over. it would up re-sales, and I know I would buy this shit if they made it.
Preach it.
I don't have a dog in the fight anymore, my mind was made up long ago and I won't be changing it. They misrepresented their product. I won't buy anything else of theirs. Case closed.
You're not much for anything that isn't black and white, are you?
Ok.