I personally agree with all of you. Ben is stupid, young, foolish, and has put the group in danger multiple times, especially in episode 4. But I wouldn't have dropped him in a million years if I hadn't thought that saving him would mean another person dying. The way Ben was talking and the way the story was happening, I thought if I saved him, the group wouldn't have enough time to get out and someone else would die. Ben being my most disliked person in the group, I couldn't risk someone else dying. But unfortunately, saving him has no consequences except for Kenny being a little upset. Now I regret it because I think Ben will prove himself a worthy asset to the group and help save Clementine in the finale.
I dropped him, but I instantly regretted it afterwards. I mean, I thought of Kenny and what he has been through, but when I dropped Ben I realised that he's just a kid! He's stupid, yeah but he was only trying to do what he thought was right.
Ben: Lee let me die i'm a total failure
My Lee: FUCK. THAT. SHIT.
Pulls him up
Ben: Why did you save me?
My Lee: Because your not getting off that easily. You may be a fuckup but goddammit you're OUR Fuckup.
Ben: Lee let me die i'm a total failure
My Lee: FUCK. THAT. SHIT.
Pulls him up
Ben: Why did you save me?
My Lee: Because your not getting off that easily. You may be a fuckup but goddammit you're OUR Fuckup.
Ben gave the supplies to bandits yes but think about It he just postponed the inevitable.The bandits would attack sooner or later and If Ben wouldnt give the supplies to them they would attack and that would probably lead to death of Duck and Katjaa.But still,Ben Is a total moron I dropped him.
I wanted to shoot him myself. But there was no option. :mad:
Then I waited for how many seconds for him to be eaten by the zombie (seemed like ages, thought "oh hell maybe it's not an option to not save him)
He's young and foolish and bla bla. Yeah right, the same time Clem is shooting things up and has helped tons. He just screws things and people. It's one thing making ONE mistake, but when you're constantly beyond useless, a danger, and a selfish coward.. well.. there's really no excuses. And after anything he did I had to sit through his emo routine. I hated him since the 1st moment I saw him. Like instantly, just seeing him. Why oh why couldn't I never get him back to the group.
And the first chance I have to never see him again to back down? Hell no!
And it didn't had to be so bad to let him die either. I would have left Kenny die as well who is nowhere near Ben, but anyone who leaves someone else behind is as good as dead for me.
I saved him, despite the fact that I think hes worthless. I still found no real justification to let him die. Hes a scared kid. Its not like he ever wanted to hurt anyone; hes just careless and inept. I still dont really like him as a character and think he should seriously get his shit together (and work on his timing for revealing terrible news to those prone to violent outbursts) but I understand him.
Oh how I hate Ben, I really really don't like him.
But I'm just not that kind of guy. No matter how much I don't like someone, I won't let them get killed if I can save them. Especially not in the friggin Zombie Apocalypse, we have to hold on the little humanity that's left or we might as well become the St.John Brothers.
I know, right? First world good guy gamer problems. I hate Ben with my soul, I have been willing to kill him since he told lee he made the deal with the bandits, I just couldn't do it, same with Larry, he was an asshole, I still tried to save him, not because I wanted to side with Lilly, I just think Lenny was an extremist and could have waited a little more before killing him. I just had to save him, Carley could have just left us die in episode 1, but she saved our lives "We can't just let people die!". I'm playing my story thru Carley, she wanted to survive, still keeping her humanity intact. Lee also said in this episode, "I don't think things will ever be back to normal again, but we got to live with it and don't let it change us."
I dropped him Because of this Duck got bit and caused Katjaa and Duck to both die
.ben had a gun but he left clem and escape. He is very useless.
So, let me see if I got this. You killed Ben just because you didn't like him, even if he was actually useless (which is true), you just dropped him to death. Wow, congratulations! You are twice the douchebag Larry was.
From looking at the end statistics and the poll results, I knew that most people wouldn't 'kill' him in the end. I posted something a while ago mentioning that despite it all when the decisions comes it'll likely be a lot harder than people think.
I knew that given that opportunity, most people would be faced with the Larry/Duck type situation where in spite of it all they don't want them to die. At least not like that.
I just hope to Christ that he (finally) steps up in the finale.
This is exactly what i knew would happen, People felt sorry for ol dumbass Ben so they pulled him up, I didn't feel sorry for the dumbass who got Carley, Kat, and Duck killed and almost the whole group, not to mention leaving Clem for dead, and Letting all the zombies into the school, You people are crazy for pulling that bastard up
This is exactly what i knew would happen, People felt sorry for ol dumbass Ben so they pulled him up, I didn't feel sorry for the dumbass who got Carley, Kat, and Duck killed and almost the whole group, not to mention leaving Clem for dead, and Letting all the zombies into the school, You people are crazy for pulling that bastard up
The same thing happened for Duck when some people wanted to put Duck down after "killing" Shawn and the same for Larry, though a lot of people couldn't pull the trigger in the meat locker.
I presume after you shoot the zombie that grabbed Ben, you're given a choice whether or not to save him or not. I personally didn't get that far, I just didn't shoot the Zombie and watched him fall to the bottom of the tower.
Why?
I see part of my role in protecting Clem is to protect the group from threats, both internal and external. There's no doubt Ben was a fuck up, but for me the unforgivable moment was how he ran and left Clem behind. Not only that, he let her escape from the house and proceeded to not really care when I questioned him about it.
His way of doing things and putting the group in danger, as well as the attitude I felt he was developing meant that for me I didn't believe he was going to start approaching things with any sense of responsibility. I mean it's one thing to be sorry, but even as he decided to come out about it the drama he caused ended with Brie getting killed.
In my mind, it was all good and well to have sympathy with Ben but he wasn't putting himself in a position where his position was tenable in the group, he stopped being interested in performing any better to keep the group safe, and I thought it would be easy enough to say that he just got killed accidently during the 'raid'.
I felt bad for not saving him when I could have, but I had to think of the well being of the overall group and especially for the safety of Clem. I don't know if I regret letting him die because I have no idea if he would have helped out or led to us getting killed in future.
Dropped him.
I didn't like to do it, I didn't want to do it, but it ultimately had to happen.
I wouldn't have done it up to the moment when he took the hatchet from the school's door (which was one of the most stupid things I've ever seen in a ZA world), but this in addition to all the other wrongs lead me to believe that there is no way for this boy to ever grow a brain.
I would have preferred to just say to him "Look, boy, we can't trust you anymore, do not do anything without our approval, even if you just want to help", but since this is a game which will probably never give us an option to do so, I figured it to be too dangerous to have him around.
I just hope that Telltale won't go the "Ha ha, you let Ben die, who would have totally saved everyone's life in episode 5, so you can only get the bad ending now" route.
Yes, I admit his deal with his bandits was a bad idea. But if anything I think he delayed the inevitable of the motel getting raided. As Jolene said on the tape, the dairy kept the bandits occupied, but without it..
As for the death of Carley/Doug, I feel this is too indirect too justify it as Ben's fault. Let's say when Lee brought David, Ben's teacher back to try and patch him up that he reanimated and nobody managed to save that zombie from killing Katjaa. Would that be Lee's fault? People bring far too many 'what if's' to the table in determining when someone's death is another's fault in the walking dead. The same goes for Duck getting bit. Katjaa killed herself because she just couldn't cope with that. Is that Duck's fault? I mean he was an idiot a lot of the time as well.
I wasn't going to resort to acting like the people from Crawford, killing someone because they are or sometimes are a liability. It was the right thing to do, to me. Although I can understand the frustration from some players for not looking after Clementine, twice, in both cases were directly his fault. I managed to ignore that in the 5 seconds I had that decision. It wasn't worth loosing Lee's humanity.
When he left Clem on the street to the zombies, that's when I decided to kill him as soon as possible. He become a worthless piece of shit for me from that moment.
Thanks for Telltale Games for the option to loose that idiot.
Throughout the Episode I was talking to my TV saying "You're dead Ben, first chance I get I'm leaving your ass behind. You coward, you idiot. I can't wait for you to die, god I hate you.". I even told Kenny that he could kick his ass. But when it came time to actually let him die, I couldn't do it. Something about him (and Kenny) wanting it made me want him to live. I think it was because I didn't want to let him off the hook so easily. He had made way to many mistakes and caused way too many deaths to just let him die, I wanted him to live and atone for everything he'd done. And him coming with Lee to find Clem is certainly a sign that he's trying to make it up to Lee.
Dropping him is pretty darn cold, guys. He did get on my nerves during Episode 4, but nothing he did was ever out of malice. You don't execute someone just for being a screw-up. At least, sane, rational people don't.
I'm also a little confused by people saying that he got others killed. Who died because of Ben? Ben didn't kill Carley. That was all because of Lilly being a murdering psycho on a witch hunt. Ben didn't force her to pull the trigger. Katjaa and Duck? Katjaa killed herself. And Duck was bit by a walker during the bandit attack. The bandits are responsible for their own actions. Ben didn't force them to attack either. In fact, his deal with them was what kept them from attacking for as long as they did. So if you're really that desperate to point the finger at someone in the group, you could just as easily blame Lee and Lilly for interfering with the deal.
Yes, he had several facepalm-worthy screw-ups in Episode 4, but no one died because of them. I'm actually a little surprised that none of the people who dropped him seem to be picking up on the parallels that the game draws between the decision to drop Ben for being a burden on the group and the stuff that was going on with what was basically a Nazi regime in Crawford. Lee even says something like, "I've seen enough of Crawford to know that that would be the first step toward becoming them." And the thing is, in the end, killing off all of the people they saw as their weakest members didn't help Crawford survive any better than anyone else.
I actually think it would be pretty awesome if Episode 5 has some point where Ben totally comes through to save the day. Only the Lees who let him die are screwed because Ben won't be there to help them.
I actually think it would be pretty awesome if Episode 5 has some point where Ben totally comes through to save the day. Only the Lees who let him die are screwed because Ben won't be there to help them.
No, that would be awful. It sure would make the Ben-savers happily go "Told ya!", but other than that?
Ben didn't turn out to be smart in any way, shape or form, so why should he now? If you ask me, the most logical consequence from letting him live would be him screwing something up again.
But story writers sure love those cheap twists, so I wouldn't be surprised if he really ends up saving everyone.
I couldn't drop him. I may have voted to leave him behind but my Lee would not kill him, no matter how much he screwed up.
My Lee acted in haste and emotions during Episode 2 when I had him kill the first brother. To me, after all that Lee had seen, he (and I) acted in a manner that I later regretted (and not because of Clementine witnessing it). I had him spare the brother, after pounding his face a few times.
To me, it's the evolution of his character. He killed the senator while under duress and followed it up with that first brother. My Lee is not a bad guy. He is trying his best under the circumstances. When given the option, I believe he would save everybody. But he's not stupid (voting Ben off the boat being the proving point). While it may have ended up a death sentence, it still gave Ben the chance of survival. Dropping him wouldn't.
Of course my actions have resulted in only the couple following me to save Clem. Ben declined and Mustached Man Child just turned me down flat.
No, that would be awful. It sure would make the Ben-savers happily go "Told ya!", but other than that?
Ben didn't turn out to be smart in any way, shape or form, so why should he now? If you ask me, the most logical consequence from letting him live would be him screwing something up again.
But story writers sure love those cheap twists, so I wouldn't be surprised if he really ends up saving everyone.
It would further drive home the point that killing people because they're too much of a burden to bother dealing with is not only inhumane, it's also not the best long-term strategy for survival. Again, getting rid of their weak didn't help Crawford one bit. In the end, it was their callousness that undid them. And the way the doctor died could have happened to anyone, no matter how "fit" they are.
The thing is, no one is "useless." Sometimes it takes a while to figure out where they best fit in. But even the biggest screw-up can still come through big in the right situation. And the most capable survivor can still make a dumb mistake. That's the practical reason for why you want to have a diverse group and not just get rid of anyone who makes a mistake. Because the next time around, it might be you who screws the pooch. And that might just be the situation in which someone like Ben will finally shine.
It would further drive home the point that killing people because they're too much of a burden to bother dealing with is not only inhumane, it's also not the best long-term strategy for survival. Again, getting rid of their weak didn't help Crawford one bit. In the end, it was their callousness that undid them. And the way the doctor died could have happened to anyone, no matter how "fit" they are.
The thing is, no one is "useless." Sometimes it takes a while to figure out where they best fit in. But even the biggest screw-up can still come through big in the right situation. And the most capable survivor can still make a dumb mistake. That's the practical reason for why you want to have a diverse group and not just get rid of anyone who makes a mistake. Because the next time around, it might be you who screws the pooch. And that might just be the situation in which someone like Ben will finally shine.
The problem is that Ben is not just weak. He is an active detriment to the group. Duck and Katjaa I would consider weak, but Ben has messed up time and time again. It's one thing if they aren't the strongest or smartest or even children, but Ben is a giant liability that has gotten multiple people killed/almost killed.
Well...in any "normal" situation I would wholeheartedly agree with you, but this is TWD, where every bullet, every food ration, every day and most importantly every bit of trust matters. Throughout the whole series so far, Ben wasn't contributing anything to the group although he technically could, but he was directly and indirectly responsible for many dangerous situations, wasted ressources and deaths. I know that this pragmatism is morally wrong, but in the end, survival is more important than a third wheel in the group who is infinitely more dangerous than a disabled person or a newborn child would be.
The Crawford people died because the writers wanted them to be dead, not because they were weak by definition. The Crawford plot itself doesn't really seem realistic to me anyways; the whole group seemed to be armed and vigilant, so I figured they would be able to shoot the Doctor and possibly a single victim without getting completely overrun.
There is simply no time to wait for Ben's single shining moment in a distant and uncertain future, not with his hands slowly slipping away while walkers approach you and the only exit in a haste.
The problem is that Ben is not just weak. He is an active detriment to the group. Duck and Katjaa I would consider weak, but Ben has messed up time and time again. It's one thing if they aren't the strongest or smartest or even children, but Ben is a giant liability that has gotten multiple people killed/almost killed.
Again, who has Ben gotten killed? Duck died because of the bandits. Katjaa killed herself. Carley/Doug was killed by Lilly because she's crazy. By my count, Ben isn't directly responsible for any of those deaths. The only way you can pin them on him is through some roundabout logic that could just as easily be used to blame practically anyone.
What has he messed up? I mean, prior to Episode 4 where I agree they really overplayed Ben's stupidity. But before this episode, I really don't understand why people were always talking about Ben being useless. The only job he's really given in Episode 2 is walking to and from the farm. Which he accomplishes. In Episode 3, yes, he makes a deal with the bandits. But in a way, that was probably the smartest move. We saw at the end of Ep. 2 that the only thing stopping the bandits from attacking the motel was their deal with the St. Johns. Once the farm got overrun by walkers, Ben's deal was probably the only thing that kept the group alive for that long. It's not like they had the guns or the manpower to take on the bandits directly. As far as I can tell, his only mistake here was not telling the others about it. And even that I can hardly blame him for considering how volatile Lilly and Kenny are.
Even in Ep. 4, I was upset that he didn't take care of Clementine, but let's be honest. He didn't put Clementine in danger when he did that. Clementine was already in danger. He simply failed to get her out of danger. Still uncool I'll agree, but there is a significant difference. And as someone else pointed out above, Kenny did the same thing when he left Shawn to die in Ep. 1. And that actually did get someone killed. The only time I can think of that he actually put people in danger was taking the hatchet out of the door handles. Which yes, was incredibly stupid. But again, everyone makes dumb mistakes, no matter how capable.
Frankly, I consider Kenny to be a way bigger liability than Ben. Ben at least tries to help. Kenny has actively killed people in our group or left them to die several times.
Well...in any "normal" situation I would wholeheartedly agree with you, but this is TWD, where every bullet, every food ration, every day and most importantly every bit of trust matters.
Which is why it's all the more important not to let an able body go to waste. He may lack judgment, but that's something where he can be trained to do better. And just because he's screwed up in the past doesn't mean he'll always screw up in the future.
Throughout the whole series so far, Ben wasn't contributing anything to the group although he technically could
That seems like an exaggerated claim. He did tell the group about all of them being infected. We saw that he acted as a lookout at the motel. He helped Lee and Kenny get the train started. And presumably, there's a lot going on offscreen. It's very likely that he helped with some tasks in the group's day-to-day routine that we just don't see. So saying that he "wasn't contributing anything" is kind of an unfounded accusation without knowing more about what the group does between episodes.
I know that this pragmatism is morally wrong, but in the end, survival is more important than a third wheel in the group who is infinitely more dangerous than a disabled person or a newborn child would be.
But again, in addition to being "morally wrong," dropping Ben really doesn't help with the group's survival. If anything, you're endangering the group by depriving them of one more person who might be able to help when you really need it. Also, it's kind of a false choice since Lee is able to save Ben without anyone else getting killed.
The Crawford people died because the writers wanted them to be dead, not because they were weak by definition.
No, in fact they were the opposite. They got rid of anyone they saw as weak to make themselves basically the ultimate survivors. And in the end, it backfired on them because someone who may not be the optimal survivor can still kill. And someone who's in peak condition can still die. Dead is dead no matter what your life was like before.
The Crawford plot itself doesn't really seem realistic to me anyways; the whole group seemed to be armed and vigilant, so I figured they would be able to shoot the Doctor and possibly a single victim without getting completely overrun.
Well, the same could be said about practically any zombie story. But then, they weren't expecting an attack from within. And all it takes is for a few people to get caught with their guard down, and before you know it, you've got zombies everywhere.
You want a direct one? Brie.
Ben removed the hatchet and allowed the walkers to trap the group into that room which led to her death. A pretty straight chain of causation if you ask me.
And then again, Duck's death isn't too different, just a bit bigger in scale.
Frankly, I consider Kenny to be a way bigger liability than Ben. Ben at least tries to help. Kenny has actively killed people in our group or left them to die several times.
I see where you're coming from, but Kenny is at least perfectly honest and reliable with what he does and wants, while Ben is a total wildcard for pretty much everything. If Kenny promised me to take care of something, he would. If Ben did it..well..we know how it ended.
He may lack judgment, but that's something where he can be trained to do better. And just because he's screwed up in the past doesn't mean he'll always screw up in the future.
But he might as well screw it up again and again. The circumstances don't really allow for many mistakes and the required amounts of training lessions.
That seems like an exaggerated claim. [...] It's very likely that he helped with some tasks in the group's day-to-day routine that we just don't see.
Granted. We don't know that for sure, though. From what we've seen, he has never been "useful". He even seems to have screwed up the lookout thing since the raiders passed the inn's barricades unnoticed.
If anything, you're endangering the group by depriving them of one more person who might be able to help when you really need it.
We don't really know that. He might end up saving or killing everyone, he certainly has the potential to do both, but with a strong bias to the "killing everyone" side.
They got rid of anyone they saw as weak to make themselves basically the ultimate survivors. And in the end, it backfired on them because someone who may not be the optimal survivor can still kill. And someone who's in peak condition can still die. Dead is dead no matter what your life was like before.
Still, when it comes to simply surviving, no matter what, Crawford was pretty much the most effective, strongest group we've met so far. They certainly weren't flawlessly strong and they sacrificed a whole lot of their humanity for their safety, but if the pregnant girl hadn't gone rogue, they would still be a fully functional "society".
Even though I absolutely despise the Crawfordian agenda; You can't really justify a rock-solid morale with pragmatic arguments in a ZA world. A certain level of morale and humanity is certainly required for a group in such a desperate situation, but you just have to draw a line at a certain point for the sake of sheer survival. You can't just lay down your weapon and go full pacifist in the midst of a battlefield, if you catch my drift.
Again, who has Ben gotten killed? Duck died because of the bandits. Katjaa killed herself. Carley/Doug was killed by Lilly because she's crazy. By my count, Ben isn't directly responsible for any of those deaths. The only way you can pin them on him is through some roundabout logic that could just as easily be used to blame practically anyone.
What has he messed up? I mean, prior to Episode 4 where I agree they really overplayed Ben's stupidity. But before this episode, I really don't understand why people were always talking about Ben being useless. The only job he's really given in Episode 2 is walking to and from the farm. Which he accomplishes. In Episode 3, yes, he makes a deal with the bandits. But in a way, that was probably the smartest move. We saw at the end of Ep. 2 that the only thing stopping the bandits from attacking the motel was their deal with the St. Johns. Once the farm got overrun by walkers, Ben's deal was probably the only thing that kept the group alive for that long. It's not like they had the guns or the manpower to take on the bandits directly. As far as I can tell, his only mistake here was not telling the others about it. And even that I can hardly blame him for considering how volatile Lilly and Kenny are.
Even in Ep. 4, I was upset that he didn't take care of Clementine, but let's be honest. He didn't put Clementine in danger when he did that. Clementine was already in danger. He simply failed to get her out of danger. Still uncool I'll agree, but there is a significant difference. And as someone else pointed out above, Kenny did the same thing when he left Shawn to die in Ep. 1. And that actually did get someone killed. The only time I can think of that he actually put people in danger was taking the hatchet out of the door handles. Which yes, was incredibly stupid. But again, everyone makes dumb mistakes, no matter how capable.
Frankly, I consider Kenny to be a way bigger liability than Ben. Ben at least tries to help. Kenny has actively killed people in our group or left them to die several times.
Ben made the deal with the bandits (which honestly probably was not a stupid move), however, he wasn't really looking out for the group, he was looking out for his friend as he said. The 2nd part of that stupid move came when he didn't tell the group at all. He knew Lilly was teetering on the edge of snapping and he thought it was a good idea to hide it. It wasn't going to take long for someone to figure out that crap was missing and the situation became much worse when he lied about it and hid it. The problem is not making the deal, it's hiding it from everyone else.
I agree Ben didn't "put" Clementine in danger. However, that does nothing to dispel the idea that he is a coward for running away and not trying to protect the less than 10 year old girl that is helpless and standing next to him.
The hatchet move was a clear work of an idiot. 'Nuff said.
Confessing to Kenny that he killed Katjaa and Duck while the zombies are politely knocking on the door and asking to come in was another genius idea of his.
The problem with Ben is that he hasn't really done anything good with any kind of intention. I don't believe that someone who stumbles into a good action without intending it (ie the bandit deal) and has shown to be a liability in other cases (helping Clem, the Hatchet, lying to the group about it) is a good person to have around. In the real world, this argument is moot, but in the game, you have to be willing to do what is necessary to protect that little girl you're responsible for. I didn't "kill him", I just didn't save him.
True, there was Brie. Again though, that was an honest mistake, not done out of malice. Lee's made his share of costly mistakes too. As has Clementine. And again, Kenny is pretty volatile himself. You get rid of everyone who's done something stupid, and you won't have anyone left. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone and all that.
He even seems to have screwed up the lookout thing since the raiders passed the inn's barricades unnoticed.
Granted, but then, we only ever saw one person on lookout at any given time. I doubt it would have been terribly difficult for the bandits to get the jump on them regardless of who was there at the time.
We don't really know that. He might end up saving or killing everyone, he certainly has the potential to do both, but with a strong bias to the "killing everyone" side.
As you say, we don't really know that. Again, everyone makes dumb mistakes from time to time. That doesn't tell us anything about their ability to perform in the future. And it's not as though Ben is an active threat. So why assume the worst? Heck, sometimes just one more able body can mean the difference between life and death. And Ben can certainly provide that even if he never has an intelligent thought in his life.
Still, when it comes to simply surviving, no matter what, Crawford was pretty much the most effective, strongest group we've met so far. They certainly weren't flawlessly strong and they sacrificed a whole lot of their humanity for their safety, but if the pregnant girl hadn't gone rogue, they would still be a fully functional "society".
Even though I absolutely despise the Crawfordian agenda; You can't really justify a rock-solid morale with pragmatic arguments in a ZA world. A certain level of morale and humanity is certainly required for a group in such a desperate situation, but you just have to draw a line at a certain point for the sake of sheer survival. You can't just lay down your weapon and go full pacifist in the midst of a battlefield, if you catch my drift.
I don't think it's an issue of "morale," nor am I suggesting that they should take a pacifist approach toward zombies. But humans have always worked best in groups. From an evolutionary perspective, cooperation has always been our best survival strategy. Making sure you have a cohesive group IS survival. A ZA world may be more brutal, but it's really just a difference of scale. Basic rules of survival still apply.
What happened in Crawford was bound to happen eventually. If it hadn't been Anna, it would have been someone else that they had pushed too far like Molly or one of Vernon's cancer survivors. Just because they're optimized for survival doesn't mean they can't get stabbed or bitten just like anyone else. No matter how hard you try to weed out people who might bring you down, there's no way to control for sheer luck. And all it takes is for a few people to get zombified for the whole place to become infested.
Having a more diverse group is actually smarter in a lot of ways. There's no one survival skill. So if you have a group where everyone's optimized for one thing, they may be super awesome at doing that one thing. But you're also putting all of your eggs in one basket. You come across a situation that your group's not trained for, and every one of them could end up dead. Diversity essentially gives you more tools in your toolkit. Everyone has something to offer, and the more diverse your group is, the greater the odds are that whatever you run into, someone will know how to handle it. So all right, breaking into places like Crawford is clearly not Ben's forte. But that's okay because he had Lee and Molly there to support him. Maybe next time around it will be something that Lee can't handle but Ben can. You just don't know what you're going to run into. Even just having information that the others don't like about how the infection works or how to get the train started is something that could save lives.
Having a more diverse group is actually smarter in a lot of ways. There's no one survival skill. So if you have a group where everyone's optimized for one thing,
But Ben is good at nothing...
No real set of survival skills there.
No brains, no brawns, no guts.
He's just a liability. And he knew it.
Yes Ben's an idiot but the important thing is he knows he's a idiot.
Yes he even managed to anger me even more when Chuck had to sacrifice his own life because of another failure by Ben! Brie can also be added to his tally, but I couldn't let a dumb and naive 16-17 year old kid die just to satisfy some sense of vengeance.
As idiotic he was when taking the hatchet he believed he was helping the group and he did show genuine remorse for his actions,his decisions have never been malicious.
When the decision came to choose his fate, I didn't believe he really wanted to die but that he believed that he deserved to die and,for me, that made it even more of a unselfish and braver act by him. Kenny's nod only made me even more determined to save him, while I sympathise with Kenny's grief and anger, my Lee wont act as someones personal executioner.
Having his back and legs broken and then dying in agony as walkers rip him apart wasn't the fate I thought Ben truly deserved. Everyone were already, safely, making there way down the ladder anyway so It just felt to me that you'd only be using him as human bait to distract the walkers,that's just too heartless for my taste.
I still decided not to take him to save Clem though, small steps at a time Ben.
Comments
My Lee: FUCK. THAT. SHIT.
Pulls him up
Ben: Why did you save me?
My Lee: Because your not getting off that easily. You may be a fuckup but goddammit you're OUR Fuckup.
Than push him down.
Oh i was done with him after he left Clem. He was going to die.
Then I waited for how many seconds for him to be eaten by the zombie (seemed like ages, thought "oh hell maybe it's not an option to not save him)
He's young and foolish and bla bla. Yeah right, the same time Clem is shooting things up and has helped tons. He just screws things and people. It's one thing making ONE mistake, but when you're constantly beyond useless, a danger, and a selfish coward.. well.. there's really no excuses. And after anything he did I had to sit through his emo routine. I hated him since the 1st moment I saw him. Like instantly, just seeing him. Why oh why couldn't I never get him back to the group.
And the first chance I have to never see him again to back down? Hell no!
And it didn't had to be so bad to let him die either. I would have left Kenny die as well who is nowhere near Ben, but anyone who leaves someone else behind is as good as dead for me.
I know, right? First world good guy gamer problems. I hate Ben with my soul, I have been willing to kill him since he told lee he made the deal with the bandits, I just couldn't do it, same with Larry, he was an asshole, I still tried to save him, not because I wanted to side with Lilly, I just think Lenny was an extremist and could have waited a little more before killing him. I just had to save him, Carley could have just left us die in episode 1, but she saved our lives "We can't just let people die!". I'm playing my story thru Carley, she wanted to survive, still keeping her humanity intact. Lee also said in this episode, "I don't think things will ever be back to normal again, but we got to live with it and don't let it change us."
.ben had a gun but he left clem and escape. He is very useless.
So, let me see if I got this. You killed Ben just because you didn't like him, even if he was actually useless (which is true), you just dropped him to death. Wow, congratulations! You are twice the douchebag Larry was.
I knew that given that opportunity, most people would be faced with the Larry/Duck type situation where in spite of it all they don't want them to die. At least not like that.
I just hope to Christ that he (finally) steps up in the finale.
The same thing happened for Duck when some people wanted to put Duck down after "killing" Shawn and the same for Larry, though a lot of people couldn't pull the trigger in the meat locker.
Why?
I see part of my role in protecting Clem is to protect the group from threats, both internal and external. There's no doubt Ben was a fuck up, but for me the unforgivable moment was how he ran and left Clem behind. Not only that, he let her escape from the house and proceeded to not really care when I questioned him about it.
His way of doing things and putting the group in danger, as well as the attitude I felt he was developing meant that for me I didn't believe he was going to start approaching things with any sense of responsibility. I mean it's one thing to be sorry, but even as he decided to come out about it the drama he caused ended with Brie getting killed.
In my mind, it was all good and well to have sympathy with Ben but he wasn't putting himself in a position where his position was tenable in the group, he stopped being interested in performing any better to keep the group safe, and I thought it would be easy enough to say that he just got killed accidently during the 'raid'.
I felt bad for not saving him when I could have, but I had to think of the well being of the overall group and especially for the safety of Clem. I don't know if I regret letting him die because I have no idea if he would have helped out or led to us getting killed in future.
He left Clem to be eaten by walkers..the end.
I didn't like to do it, I didn't want to do it, but it ultimately had to happen.
I wouldn't have done it up to the moment when he took the hatchet from the school's door (which was one of the most stupid things I've ever seen in a ZA world), but this in addition to all the other wrongs lead me to believe that there is no way for this boy to ever grow a brain.
I would have preferred to just say to him "Look, boy, we can't trust you anymore, do not do anything without our approval, even if you just want to help", but since this is a game which will probably never give us an option to do so, I figured it to be too dangerous to have him around.
I just hope that Telltale won't go the "Ha ha, you let Ben die, who would have totally saved everyone's life in episode 5, so you can only get the bad ending now" route.
Yes, I admit his deal with his bandits was a bad idea. But if anything I think he delayed the inevitable of the motel getting raided. As Jolene said on the tape, the dairy kept the bandits occupied, but without it..
As for the death of Carley/Doug, I feel this is too indirect too justify it as Ben's fault. Let's say when Lee brought David, Ben's teacher back to try and patch him up that he reanimated and nobody managed to save that zombie from killing Katjaa. Would that be Lee's fault? People bring far too many 'what if's' to the table in determining when someone's death is another's fault in the walking dead. The same goes for Duck getting bit. Katjaa killed herself because she just couldn't cope with that. Is that Duck's fault? I mean he was an idiot a lot of the time as well.
I wasn't going to resort to acting like the people from Crawford, killing someone because they are or sometimes are a liability. It was the right thing to do, to me. Although I can understand the frustration from some players for not looking after Clementine, twice, in both cases were directly his fault. I managed to ignore that in the 5 seconds I had that decision. It wasn't worth loosing Lee's humanity.
Figured i didnt want to be like the crawford folks
even though i hate the bastard
Thanks for Telltale Games for the option to loose that idiot.
Lee did what was necessary.
Lee
When the Walkers try to get at ya, Drop it like its hot.
but nope I didn't
I'm also a little confused by people saying that he got others killed. Who died because of Ben? Ben didn't kill Carley. That was all because of Lilly being a murdering psycho on a witch hunt. Ben didn't force her to pull the trigger. Katjaa and Duck? Katjaa killed herself. And Duck was bit by a walker during the bandit attack. The bandits are responsible for their own actions. Ben didn't force them to attack either. In fact, his deal with them was what kept them from attacking for as long as they did. So if you're really that desperate to point the finger at someone in the group, you could just as easily blame Lee and Lilly for interfering with the deal.
Yes, he had several facepalm-worthy screw-ups in Episode 4, but no one died because of them. I'm actually a little surprised that none of the people who dropped him seem to be picking up on the parallels that the game draws between the decision to drop Ben for being a burden on the group and the stuff that was going on with what was basically a Nazi regime in Crawford. Lee even says something like, "I've seen enough of Crawford to know that that would be the first step toward becoming them." And the thing is, in the end, killing off all of the people they saw as their weakest members didn't help Crawford survive any better than anyone else.
I actually think it would be pretty awesome if Episode 5 has some point where Ben totally comes through to save the day. Only the Lees who let him die are screwed because Ben won't be there to help them.
Ben didn't turn out to be smart in any way, shape or form, so why should he now? If you ask me, the most logical consequence from letting him live would be him screwing something up again.
But story writers sure love those cheap twists, so I wouldn't be surprised if he really ends up saving everyone.
My Lee acted in haste and emotions during Episode 2 when I had him kill the first brother. To me, after all that Lee had seen, he (and I) acted in a manner that I later regretted (and not because of Clementine witnessing it). I had him spare the brother, after pounding his face a few times.
To me, it's the evolution of his character. He killed the senator while under duress and followed it up with that first brother. My Lee is not a bad guy. He is trying his best under the circumstances. When given the option, I believe he would save everybody. But he's not stupid (voting Ben off the boat being the proving point). While it may have ended up a death sentence, it still gave Ben the chance of survival. Dropping him wouldn't.
Of course my actions have resulted in only the couple following me to save Clem. Ben declined and Mustached Man Child just turned me down flat.
It would further drive home the point that killing people because they're too much of a burden to bother dealing with is not only inhumane, it's also not the best long-term strategy for survival. Again, getting rid of their weak didn't help Crawford one bit. In the end, it was their callousness that undid them. And the way the doctor died could have happened to anyone, no matter how "fit" they are.
The thing is, no one is "useless." Sometimes it takes a while to figure out where they best fit in. But even the biggest screw-up can still come through big in the right situation. And the most capable survivor can still make a dumb mistake. That's the practical reason for why you want to have a diverse group and not just get rid of anyone who makes a mistake. Because the next time around, it might be you who screws the pooch. And that might just be the situation in which someone like Ben will finally shine.
The problem is that Ben is not just weak. He is an active detriment to the group. Duck and Katjaa I would consider weak, but Ben has messed up time and time again. It's one thing if they aren't the strongest or smartest or even children, but Ben is a giant liability that has gotten multiple people killed/almost killed.
Well...in any "normal" situation I would wholeheartedly agree with you, but this is TWD, where every bullet, every food ration, every day and most importantly every bit of trust matters. Throughout the whole series so far, Ben wasn't contributing anything to the group although he technically could, but he was directly and indirectly responsible for many dangerous situations, wasted ressources and deaths. I know that this pragmatism is morally wrong, but in the end, survival is more important than a third wheel in the group who is infinitely more dangerous than a disabled person or a newborn child would be.
The Crawford people died because the writers wanted them to be dead, not because they were weak by definition. The Crawford plot itself doesn't really seem realistic to me anyways; the whole group seemed to be armed and vigilant, so I figured they would be able to shoot the Doctor and possibly a single victim without getting completely overrun.
There is simply no time to wait for Ben's single shining moment in a distant and uncertain future, not with his hands slowly slipping away while walkers approach you and the only exit in a haste.
Again, who has Ben gotten killed? Duck died because of the bandits. Katjaa killed herself. Carley/Doug was killed by Lilly because she's crazy. By my count, Ben isn't directly responsible for any of those deaths. The only way you can pin them on him is through some roundabout logic that could just as easily be used to blame practically anyone.
What has he messed up? I mean, prior to Episode 4 where I agree they really overplayed Ben's stupidity. But before this episode, I really don't understand why people were always talking about Ben being useless. The only job he's really given in Episode 2 is walking to and from the farm. Which he accomplishes. In Episode 3, yes, he makes a deal with the bandits. But in a way, that was probably the smartest move. We saw at the end of Ep. 2 that the only thing stopping the bandits from attacking the motel was their deal with the St. Johns. Once the farm got overrun by walkers, Ben's deal was probably the only thing that kept the group alive for that long. It's not like they had the guns or the manpower to take on the bandits directly. As far as I can tell, his only mistake here was not telling the others about it. And even that I can hardly blame him for considering how volatile Lilly and Kenny are.
Even in Ep. 4, I was upset that he didn't take care of Clementine, but let's be honest. He didn't put Clementine in danger when he did that. Clementine was already in danger. He simply failed to get her out of danger. Still uncool I'll agree, but there is a significant difference. And as someone else pointed out above, Kenny did the same thing when he left Shawn to die in Ep. 1. And that actually did get someone killed. The only time I can think of that he actually put people in danger was taking the hatchet out of the door handles. Which yes, was incredibly stupid. But again, everyone makes dumb mistakes, no matter how capable.
Frankly, I consider Kenny to be a way bigger liability than Ben. Ben at least tries to help. Kenny has actively killed people in our group or left them to die several times.
Which is why it's all the more important not to let an able body go to waste. He may lack judgment, but that's something where he can be trained to do better. And just because he's screwed up in the past doesn't mean he'll always screw up in the future.
That seems like an exaggerated claim. He did tell the group about all of them being infected. We saw that he acted as a lookout at the motel. He helped Lee and Kenny get the train started. And presumably, there's a lot going on offscreen. It's very likely that he helped with some tasks in the group's day-to-day routine that we just don't see. So saying that he "wasn't contributing anything" is kind of an unfounded accusation without knowing more about what the group does between episodes.
But again, in addition to being "morally wrong," dropping Ben really doesn't help with the group's survival. If anything, you're endangering the group by depriving them of one more person who might be able to help when you really need it. Also, it's kind of a false choice since Lee is able to save Ben without anyone else getting killed.
No, in fact they were the opposite. They got rid of anyone they saw as weak to make themselves basically the ultimate survivors. And in the end, it backfired on them because someone who may not be the optimal survivor can still kill. And someone who's in peak condition can still die. Dead is dead no matter what your life was like before.
Well, the same could be said about practically any zombie story. But then, they weren't expecting an attack from within. And all it takes is for a few people to get caught with their guard down, and before you know it, you've got zombies everywhere.
Ben removed the hatchet and allowed the walkers to trap the group into that room which led to her death. A pretty straight chain of causation if you ask me.
And then again, Duck's death isn't too different, just a bit bigger in scale.
I see where you're coming from, but Kenny is at least perfectly honest and reliable with what he does and wants, while Ben is a total wildcard for pretty much everything. If Kenny promised me to take care of something, he would. If Ben did it..well..we know how it ended.
But he might as well screw it up again and again. The circumstances don't really allow for many mistakes and the required amounts of training lessions.
Granted. We don't know that for sure, though. From what we've seen, he has never been "useful". He even seems to have screwed up the lookout thing since the raiders passed the inn's barricades unnoticed.
We don't really know that. He might end up saving or killing everyone, he certainly has the potential to do both, but with a strong bias to the "killing everyone" side.
Sure, but Lee doesn't know that in that very moment in the bell tower. Might as well have killed both of them.
Still, when it comes to simply surviving, no matter what, Crawford was pretty much the most effective, strongest group we've met so far. They certainly weren't flawlessly strong and they sacrificed a whole lot of their humanity for their safety, but if the pregnant girl hadn't gone rogue, they would still be a fully functional "society".
Even though I absolutely despise the Crawfordian agenda; You can't really justify a rock-solid morale with pragmatic arguments in a ZA world. A certain level of morale and humanity is certainly required for a group in such a desperate situation, but you just have to draw a line at a certain point for the sake of sheer survival. You can't just lay down your weapon and go full pacifist in the midst of a battlefield, if you catch my drift.
Guess I had a Roy Batty moment.....
Ben made the deal with the bandits (which honestly probably was not a stupid move), however, he wasn't really looking out for the group, he was looking out for his friend as he said. The 2nd part of that stupid move came when he didn't tell the group at all. He knew Lilly was teetering on the edge of snapping and he thought it was a good idea to hide it. It wasn't going to take long for someone to figure out that crap was missing and the situation became much worse when he lied about it and hid it. The problem is not making the deal, it's hiding it from everyone else.
I agree Ben didn't "put" Clementine in danger. However, that does nothing to dispel the idea that he is a coward for running away and not trying to protect the less than 10 year old girl that is helpless and standing next to him.
The hatchet move was a clear work of an idiot. 'Nuff said.
Confessing to Kenny that he killed Katjaa and Duck while the zombies are politely knocking on the door and asking to come in was another genius idea of his.
The problem with Ben is that he hasn't really done anything good with any kind of intention. I don't believe that someone who stumbles into a good action without intending it (ie the bandit deal) and has shown to be a liability in other cases (helping Clem, the Hatchet, lying to the group about it) is a good person to have around. In the real world, this argument is moot, but in the game, you have to be willing to do what is necessary to protect that little girl you're responsible for. I didn't "kill him", I just didn't save him.
You're damn right about that.
True, there was Brie. Again though, that was an honest mistake, not done out of malice. Lee's made his share of costly mistakes too. As has Clementine. And again, Kenny is pretty volatile himself. You get rid of everyone who's done something stupid, and you won't have anyone left. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone and all that.
Granted, but then, we only ever saw one person on lookout at any given time. I doubt it would have been terribly difficult for the bandits to get the jump on them regardless of who was there at the time.
As you say, we don't really know that. Again, everyone makes dumb mistakes from time to time. That doesn't tell us anything about their ability to perform in the future. And it's not as though Ben is an active threat. So why assume the worst? Heck, sometimes just one more able body can mean the difference between life and death. And Ben can certainly provide that even if he never has an intelligent thought in his life.
I don't think it's an issue of "morale," nor am I suggesting that they should take a pacifist approach toward zombies. But humans have always worked best in groups. From an evolutionary perspective, cooperation has always been our best survival strategy. Making sure you have a cohesive group IS survival. A ZA world may be more brutal, but it's really just a difference of scale. Basic rules of survival still apply.
What happened in Crawford was bound to happen eventually. If it hadn't been Anna, it would have been someone else that they had pushed too far like Molly or one of Vernon's cancer survivors. Just because they're optimized for survival doesn't mean they can't get stabbed or bitten just like anyone else. No matter how hard you try to weed out people who might bring you down, there's no way to control for sheer luck. And all it takes is for a few people to get zombified for the whole place to become infested.
Having a more diverse group is actually smarter in a lot of ways. There's no one survival skill. So if you have a group where everyone's optimized for one thing, they may be super awesome at doing that one thing. But you're also putting all of your eggs in one basket. You come across a situation that your group's not trained for, and every one of them could end up dead. Diversity essentially gives you more tools in your toolkit. Everyone has something to offer, and the more diverse your group is, the greater the odds are that whatever you run into, someone will know how to handle it. So all right, breaking into places like Crawford is clearly not Ben's forte. But that's okay because he had Lee and Molly there to support him. Maybe next time around it will be something that Lee can't handle but Ben can. You just don't know what you're going to run into. Even just having information that the others don't like about how the infection works or how to get the train started is something that could save lives.
But Ben is good at nothing...
No real set of survival skills there.
No brains, no brawns, no guts.
He's just a liability. And he knew it.
Yes he even managed to anger me even more when Chuck had to sacrifice his own life because of another failure by Ben! Brie can also be added to his tally, but I couldn't let a dumb and naive 16-17 year old kid die just to satisfy some sense of vengeance.
As idiotic he was when taking the hatchet he believed he was helping the group and he did show genuine remorse for his actions,his decisions have never been malicious.
When the decision came to choose his fate, I didn't believe he really wanted to die but that he believed that he deserved to die and,for me, that made it even more of a unselfish and braver act by him. Kenny's nod only made me even more determined to save him, while I sympathise with Kenny's grief and anger, my Lee wont act as someones personal executioner.
Having his back and legs broken and then dying in agony as walkers rip him apart wasn't the fate I thought Ben truly deserved. Everyone were already, safely, making there way down the ladder anyway so It just felt to me that you'd only be using him as human bait to distract the walkers,that's just too heartless for my taste.
I still decided not to take him to save Clem though, small steps at a time Ben.