Wow, so brutality, do you want to vengeance for Vernon so much as you want retribution to Lilly? Bacause for me what Vernon did is too much worse then what Lilly did. I'm really ready to forgive Lilly, but Vernon goes too far.
How is what Vernon did worse? Lilly directly killed someone for no good reason. Vernon stole a boat to protect his own group of people. Not having a boat did not kill Lee's group. A bullet in the face did kill Carley/Doug. At worst, Vernon took away a pipe dream that Kenny more or less forced the group to go along with.
How is what Vernon did worse? Lilly directly killed someone for no good reason. Vernon stole a boat to protect his own group of people. Not having a boat did not kill Lee's group. A bullet in the face did kill Carley/Doug. At worst, Vernon took away a pipe dream that Kenny more or less forced the group to go along with.
I am sure that Vernon would have killed those who were left to guard the boat if Vernon was armed, and if those who guarded the boat resisted too much.
You say she shows guilt. Does she? Or does she show shock she did it and was upset because she knew what was coming next. Did you see Carley's face? Doug's? Ben's, Kenny's, and especially Lee's? She wasn't feeling guilty, she was scared because of what'd she'd done. It wasn't okay about Lee's past, which she will reveal in everyone's faces no matter how you acted to her. Even if you defended her. She leaves them all to die in the middle of nowhere without a mode of transportation. lol She really feels guilty huh?
Both, and she left for surivival. She didn't want to die.
And again, as I've said multiple times, if she was indeed crazy which she knew she was losing it, why was she still leading the group? Why was she handling a firearm? When you are in distress, you sit back and get your act together. Yes, it is an apocalypse; I know there will be little time to rest and relax, but it had to be done.
So your argument is that you expect someone losing their mind to make rational decisions?
It was pre-meditated.
There wasn't enough time for that to be a pre-meditated murder.
It's inhuman to leave her? That's true. They should have shot her. A 'death penalty'. To let her simply leave after killing someone wouldn't be fair would it?
You can't send her to a mental institution, nor can you take her to a prison. You can't just tie her up and drag her with you. But letting her go could cause problems later on. What if she became a danger to the group? What if she became a walker and got another person killed? So leaving her would be considered a service to Lilly. Lee was allowed to have a second chance, but it wasn't with his family nor his wife. Same with Lilly, she must find her own way. Consider me inhumane or bloodthirsty, but I consider it right. There is a certain line for redemption, which she crossed by far.
The way I saw it, Lily was the group's responsibility. She might have been paranoid but she'd worked to keep the group alive. She only started to lose it after the group murdered her father. You can argue it was for survival but her decline was a result of our decision so whatever she did next was on us. That's the way I saw it.
And saying she wouldn't go around killing people is a ridiculous statement as pertaining to before the apocalypse. She was in the Air Force. You don't know her past, and her future was set to kill even more innocent people. She was linked to the comics(not anymore) and killed a mother and child. Her father was an Army Commander, and undoubtedly killed many people. Lilly carries the same characteristics of her father, moreso his temper.
I've only just read that comic. I got the first compendium second arrived this morning. The woodbury citizens were conned by the governor into attacking the prison. They thought the people in the prison had murdered their people. When that Lily shot that mother she was under the impression she was an enemy assailant and when she saw that woman was holding a baby she flipped out and executed the governor for his manipulation.
If Kenny did survive for me the most interesting scenario would be that it's him and Lilly on that mountain. At this point they've both lost everything and argubably as a result of each other. That dynamic would be interesting and I could see them both wanting to protect Clementine as the only surviving member of their original group. I think it could be cool playing things from both their perspectives with both playable.
I am sure that Vernon would have killed those who were left to guard the boat if Vernon was armed, and if those who guarded the boat resisted too much.
Vernon was armed. That's how his people were able to take the boat, even if Kenny, Ben, Christa and Omid are there to defend it. The weapons were simply a deterrent. Vernon could have easily killed one of them, but didn't. All he wanted was the boat.
Even if there was a fight and someone did get killed, Vernon had a valid reason. He knew there was a boat. He knew it worked, thanks to Kenny working on it. He saw it as a chance of survival for his entire group, so he went for it. Losing it meant that Lee's group would have to carry on same as they have been. No better, no worse. That's not to say I'm not angry at Vernon for his double-cross, but he wasn't in the wrong for doing it.
On the other hand, Lilly actually steals the one thing that saved the group's life earlier that day; the RV. Without it, the group is stranded. They had no idea that they could operate a train at that point. She placed her own safety (which wasn't even at risk) over the rest of the group after she had been given a chance to make up for the atrocity she just committed. That is worse than a man (who risked his life and lost a close friend while trying to help a stranger get his own group supplies) taking a vehicle that neither group has a full claim of while making sure to avoid causing any lasting harm to the opposition.
If telltale really wants to be lazy they could do the months between ep 1 and 2 which I believe they said at one point they started planning to show how Mark was picked up but then scratched it. I personally would not mind seeing what happened to Lilly because I actually liked her. People only irrationally hate her because she killed Carley. I imagine if there were no other adult female they would feel differently. Yes, she killed her OR Doug but I do feel she was in a really bad place and Carley was being very antagonistic.
If Kenny did survive for me the most interesting scenario would be that it's him and Lilly on that mountain. At this point they've both lost everything and argubably as a result of each other. That dynamic would be interesting and I could see them both wanting to protect Clementine as the only surviving member of their original group. I think it could be cool playing things from both their perspectives with both playable.
I don't know. Kenny's pretty impulsive. When he found out Ben was responsible for Katjaa and Duck's deaths, he attacked him outright. As for Lilly...they didn't exactly part on the best of terms either. To make Kenny not do the same to Lilly, she'd have to be in really bad shape by the time he finds her. (The chances of this happening are awfully slim, anyway. Lilly was far away from Savannah at the time she left the group, and Telltale might think having them reunite would be too much of a coincidence.)
I don't think there's any force on Earth that could stop Kenny from tearing Vernon apart if he saw him again.
If telltale really wants to be lazy they could do the months between ep 1 and 2 which I believe they said at one point they started planning to show how Mark was picked up but then scratched it. I personally would not mind seeing what happened to Lilly because I actually liked her. People only irrationally hate her because she killed Carley. I imagine if there were no other adult female they would feel differently. Yes, she killed her OR Doug but I do feel she was in a really bad place and Carley was being very antagonistic.
I don't know for other people, but I've never 'liked' Lilly. She's just not a likeable character. She tries to be a leader and yet cares more over her father than the group(which I'd be okay with if she wasn't leader). She always takes a more aggresive approach to solving matters, such as the attack on the bandits and the violent outbursts on others. She is also very defensive of her father(which I understand somewhat) but when Larry threatens others and starts his temper isn't she partially responsible to calm him down? That would have stopped his heart attack, right? I disliked the fact that no matter what you do for her she is angry at you, blames you for situations you had no control over, and leaves you and the group to die if you forgive her and let her back in the RV. She kills another group member in cold blood and causes paranoia and stress to the others. I feel like she treats the people who have helped her and her father like shit for little reason. I understand her grief and sorrow, and I forgave some of her outbursts toward other people, but isn't there a certain limit?
I know I prefered Carley over Doug, but does it really matter about the sexuality of it? She was a female, yeah, and I admit I hoped Lee would have a relationship in the game. Doesn't mean I saved Carley for those reasons. I tried to save them both, and after playing both sides, Carley's is much better, and frankly you get closer to her as a person. Doug's a cool guy though. Shame either of them die.
Carley pressured her, yes. But didn't Lilly first? She was just trying to defend herself. Same as Ben. Lilly was being antagonistic toward her/Ben since the moment she stepped in the RV(or close to it). Carley and/or Ben never pull a gun out on her.
I can't say I liked her for killing Carley, but that wasn't why I hate her as a character. And hate is a strong word. I don't know if I'd like to see her in a interqual, but I wouldn't want her as a playable character. And now that she is an 'original' character, if she returns in season 2 I MIGHT be able to forgive what she did, just as I forgave Ben's actions, and liked him till his end.
I'd like to see episode 1.5 just because I liked Mark. I liked him more than Doug, really. But I think other choices of storyline'd be preferable.
If Kenny did survive for me the most interesting scenario would be that it's him and Lilly on that mountain. At this point they've both lost everything and argubably as a result of each other. That dynamic would be interesting and I could see them both wanting to protect Clementine as the only surviving member of their original group. I think it could be cool playing things from both their perspectives with both playable.
First off, it's nice to meet a fellow Lily supporter. Second, I too suggested this earlier. Kenny and Lily play pretty well off each other, and that makes them both entertaining and realistic. Kenny will most likely want to protect Clem to honor his fallen friend Lee. As for Lily, she know's she killed Carly/Doug, and she most likely feels guilty for what just may be the biggest mistake of her life. However, even though she made that mistake, Lee chose not to kill her. He either left her on the side of the road, or brought her back in the RV, but again, Lee chose not to kill her despite the fact that most people would have, and I think Lily realizes that. To honor Lee, she would protect Clem with her life. At least that's how I see it, and that's if the two people walking in the distance at the end of season one are Kenny and Lily. Fingers crossed.
Honestly, before her mental breakdown Lilly was probably one of my favorite members of the group. So I wouldn't mind seeing her again in some fashion, though I really don't expect to play as her.
Kenny and Lily play pretty well off each other, and that makes them both entertaining and realistic.
Hahah, they play off each other about as well as two rabid dogs sharing a bunk.
Though the idea of them both surviving only to meet up again in the same place and start traveling together is pretty farfetched on multiple levels, I admit it's an interesting concept. Both did terrible things trying to protect what they had, and both ended up losing everything.
Lily doesnt really care about anybody except for larry. Kenny really doesnt care about anyone but his family and that boat. Why does everyone think they are gonna lay down there lives for clem? From what we see in S1 Ken/Lily dont bond with clem or care what happens to clem. Only who is following who or what plan. Most of the time they use clem as leverage agaisnt lee to back there plans. Just my thoughts.
First off, it's nice to meet a fellow Lily supporter.
This is the thing. I wouldn't classify myself as a Lily supporter. I liked all the characters because I felt they were all realistically written and human. I don't think just not despising her automatically makes me a supporter per se. Fact is she's one of the only characters from season 1 left alive so I want to get more scenes because I got attached to her character along with everyone else.
had a great bond with her in one of my playthroughs,even Larry at the end seemed to be warming to Lee more when he was trying all the 'im not your enemy' lines in the meat locker,what Broke Lilly was constant stress and pressure of trying to run a group and trying to tidy up after her Dad winding people up,trying to keep harmony.A Kenny/Lee double act would make anyone flip out LOL i wanted to go with her and get Clem in the RV and watch Kennys face in the rear view mirror drop hahaha,hope we see Lilly again she was great.
had a great bond with her in one of my playthroughs,even Larry at the end seemed to be warming to Lee more when he was trying all the 'im not your enemy' lines in the meat locker,
Whatever gets released, it is most likely another chance to play as Lee. Lee is the one character that players get to define to a great extent. With Lilly, players have very limited agency. Lilly acts a certain way, because she has a canon personality in the universe now. So it won't really make sense to make Lilly the PC because dialogue choices would really have to be limited to:
1. Pissed off
2. Pissed off
3. Pissed off
4. Scowl silently
Okay, that's a bit of an exaggeration. But the point is, TTG can't really deviate too far from Lilly's character, especially if it takes places between episodes 1, 2, 3 (I am betting between 1 and 2). They run the risk of messing up the character otherwise by letting players define her. Perhaps if it took place after episode 3, but still, there are limitations.
Lee would make the most sense because he's basically a blank slate that we've been filling in as players. Asshole Lee? Sure. Diplomatic Lee? Go for it. Mute Lee? Hell yeah!
Jugar como ¡Lilly! está loca, es una psicópata creo que sería el peor personaje de la segunda temporada, honestamente no creo sea de utilidad es una mandona ni siquiera puede tolerar ella misma, si alguien es mordido le volaría los sesos sin siquiera preguntar si está infectado o no, apuesto que hubiera matado a Doug cuando llego a la tienda salpicado de sangre y asesinaría a Clem en el baño cuando fue atacada por el zombie. ¡ESTA ENFERMA MENTAL!
If telltale really wants to be lazy they could do the months between ep 1 and 2 which I believe they said at one point they started planning to show how Mark was picked up but then scratched it. I personally would not mind seeing what happened to Lilly because I actually liked her. People only irrationally hate her because she killed Carley. I imagine if there were no other adult female they would feel differently. Yes, she killed her OR Doug but I do feel she was in a really bad place and Carley was being very antagonistic.
I really dislike that argument, that hating someone who killed an innocent person over an insult is not justified. I'm sorry but if anything Lilly deserves more hate. At least Kenny killed Larry for a good cause, Lilly killed Carley because she was defending a kid that's nearly pissed his pants from fear.
And don't even say losing Larry justifies what she did. It's a zombie apocalypse, keeping your shit together is necessary. Especially if said person wants to play leader.
I really dislike that argument, that hating someone who killed an innocent person over an insult is not justified. I'm sorry but if anything Lilly deserves more hate. At least Kenny killed Larry for a good cause, Lilly killed Carley because she was defending a kid that's nearly pissed his pants from fear.
And don't even say losing Larry justifies what she did. It's a zombie apocalypse, keeping your shit together is necessary. Especially if said person wants to play leader.
Agreed. Look at Kenny, not only does he lose wife but his son as well, and they both die right in front of his eyes. On top of that he(may) be forced to kill his own son, yet he kept it together, just barely. I didn't see Lilly having to drop the salt lick on Larry's head.
I really dislike that argument, that hating someone who killed an innocent person over an insult is not justified. I'm sorry but if anything Lilly deserves more hate. At least Kenny killed Larry for a good cause, Lilly killed Carley because she was defending a kid that's nearly pissed his pants from fear.
And don't even say losing Larry justifies what she did. It's a zombie apocalypse, keeping your shit together is necessary. Especially if said person wants to play leader.
Exactly. For me murdering another group member, for no reason other than your own spite is the cardinal sin. I also hate the argument that its somehow only a big deal because it was Carley. If its Doug or had it been Ben, Kenny, Kat, Lee, etc my opinion is still the same.
Her mental state was obviously very poor, but had she really been through worse than everyone else, Lee in particular goes through so much shit and loses so many friends but is thinking clearly in order to help whose's left right until the end. If a similar killing to what Lilly did happened in real life you'd probably get committed to an institution, but that luxury doesn't exist any more when Zombies roll into town. If what Carley did was enough to warrant a murder in her eyes then she's a danger to everyone.
Others kill the game but never so completely without justification and the only provocation she got from Carley was the the person who had done nothing to her and she was viscously accusing of being a traitor (along with then bullying Ben to try and get him to accuse her as well) with absolutely no evidence called her a bitch. For me that is unforgivable.
I mean where do people expect the relationship to go from here. I am supposed to happily welcome back, work with, have small talk and ever trust the person who did that? I was fairly neutral and sympathetic before the murder, but that attitude can never return.
It would be hugely disillusioning if season two or any DLC forces me into buddying up with Lilly. It would take me out of the game completely. If she's determent and you get to make the call (Kill, Send her packing, forgive), i could live with that.
Exactly. For me murdering another group member, for no reason other than your own spite is the cardinal sin. I also hate the argument that its somehow only a big deal because it was Carley. If its Doug or had it been Ben, Kenny, Kat, Lee, etc my opinion is still the same.
Her mental state was obviously very poor, but had she really been through worse than everyone else, Lee in particular goes through so much shit and loses so many friends but is thinking clearly in order to help whose's left right until the end. If a similar killing to what Lilly did happened in real life you'd probably get committed to an institution, but that luxury doesn't exist any more when Zombies roll into town. If what Carley did was enough to warrant a murder in her eyes then she's a danger to everyone.
Others kill the game but never so completely without justification and the only provocation she got from Carley was the the person who had done nothing to her and she was viscously accusing of being a traitor (along with then bullying Ben to try and get him to accuse her as well) with absolutely no evidence called her a bitch. For me that is unforgivable.
I mean where do people expect the relationship to go from here. I am supposed to happily welcome back, work with, have small talk and ever trust the person who did that? I was fairly neutral and sympathetic before the murder, but that attitude can never return.
It would be hugely disillusioning if season two or any DLC forces me into buddying up with Lilly. It would take me out of the game completely. If she's determent and you get to make the call (Kill, Send her packing, forgive), i could live with that.
I agree completely. At least some people understand why I hate her guts and can't trust/forgive her. I've only mentioned trying to forgive Lilly if I have no other choice. If she stays I can't just be a dick to her can I? Oh... Wait(evil music) I CAN!!!!!!!
Seriously if we get that choice I'm either killing her or leaving her. If I leave her again at least I know she isn't coming back.
Its when you are in the meat locker trying to calm him down,i got a couple of conversations in with him before his heart attack,i can't quite remember,i think he was silent when Lee said this but seemed to sigh at the very end like he was finally coming round.
Agreed. Look at Kenny, not only does he lose wife but his son as well, and they both die right in front of his eyes. On top of that he(may) be forced to kill his own son, yet he kept it together, just barely. I didn't see Lilly having to drop the salt lick on Larry's head.
Mhm, it's such a disgusting argument.
"Lilly shouldn't be hated! I mean, all she did was kill someone."
God those people simply do not understand the value of a human life.
"Lilly shouldn't be hated! I mean, all she did was kill someone."
God those people simply do not understand the value of a human life.
Well, plenty of people defend Kenny after killing Larry, and then potentially leaving Lee for dead despite what he could have done for his family prior.
I don't condone what Lilly did, she had obviously lost it at that point, and I don't think that Larry's death justified it, it just helps explain her deteriorating mental state.
Agreed. Look at Kenny, not only does he lose wife but his son as well, and they both die right in front of his eyes. On top of that he(may) be forced to kill his own son, yet he kept it together, just barely. I didn't see Lilly having to drop the salt lick on Larry's head.
The only reason that Kenny didn't kill Ben is because Lee stopped him. I think part of the reason Kenny and Lilly clashed is because they were so similar. None of the characters in the Walking Dead that we dealt with were entirely irredeemable. It's part of the reason why it was such a good story.
Out of curiousity if Kenny had killed Ben would people advocate him been kicked out of the group?
The only reason that Kenny didn't kill Ben is because Lee stopped him. I think part of the reason Kenny and Lilly clashed is because they were so similar. None of the characters in the Walking Dead that we dealt with were entirely irredeemable. It's part of the reason why it was such a good story.
Out of curiousity if Kenny had killed Ben would people advocate him been kicked out of the group?
I would. If killing is just something people start jumping to in order to solve their problems, then I have a huge problem. But if it's only done out of necessity, then I can forgive. It's still something that needs to be carefully analyzed. Lilly didn't think it through. Kenny thought it over when he killed Larry. While I still think Kenny was too hasty, he did have justification. If he killed Ben in Crawford, then I would have lost all respect for the man.
Well, plenty of people defend Kenny after killing Larry, and then potentially leaving Lee for dead despite what he could have done for his family prior.
I don't condone what Lilly did, she had obviously lost it at that point, and I don't think that Larry's death justified it, it just helps explain her deteriorating mental state.
Hugely different situations.
Kenny wasn't setting out to kill Larry, he was making sure he couldn't come back as a walker, believing he couldn't be saved and was going to kill everyone. Whether you think that's the right or the wrong call, Its not a murder.
One of Kenny or Lilly will leave you for dead regardless of your call in the meat-locker, i think both of them feel you left them when they needed you so they'll do the same. Its difficult to judge and set up while It is really very bad i would still class in a lower tier than actually having that extra level of venom to coldly pull the trigger yourself.
Lilly also noticeably has a much less redeemable motive, killing someone who did nothing to her.
The only reason that Kenny didn't kill Ben is because Lee stopped him. I think part of the reason Kenny and Lilly clashed is because they were so similar. None of the characters in the Walking Dead that we dealt with were entirely irredeemable. It's part of the reason why it was such a good story.
Out of curiousity if Kenny had killed Ben would people advocate him been kicked out of the group?
Of course i would, but even in that scenario he still had far better justification than Lilly. I'm sure a very large number of people in this day and age would readily kill someone who played a large part in getting their family killed. That doesn't make it right, but it's understandable. In contrast i doubt very many relate with Lilly, killing someone solely because they stood up to you.
The only reason that Kenny didn't kill Ben is because Lee stopped him. I think part of the reason Kenny and Lilly clashed is because they were so similar. None of the characters in the Walking Dead that we dealt with were entirely irredeemable. It's part of the reason why it was such a good story.
Out of curiousity if Kenny had killed Ben would people advocate him been kicked out of the group?
I really hated Ben as well.
While you can also compare what the victim has done to earn their deaths.
Carley: Called Lilly a bitch after being repeatedly accused with no evidence
Ben (By Lilly, if you chose Doug): Taking supplies (accused with no evidence but correct)
Ben (By Kenny): Causing the death of his wife and son, Stolen supplies (confirmed and admitted), General fuck up.
The last one is a much better reason to be very very angry. I would still be very pissed if he had shot him though. I wouldn't want to take revenge of leave him to die as such like i do with Lilly, Its more understandable but like others have said that wouldn't make it right and certainly we couldn't be friends anymore if that was his approach. I would have looked to separate with Clem at the first opportunity.
Perhaps a little hypocritical since i dropped Ben but i suspect if he'd been begging me for help instead on telling me to drop him, more of a "if you want to kill yourself, fine" than putting a gun to his head and pulling the trigger.
The only reason that Kenny didn't kill Ben is because Lee stopped him. I think part of the reason Kenny and Lilly clashed is because they were so similar. None of the characters in the Walking Dead that we dealt with were entirely irredeemable. It's part of the reason why it was such a good story.
Out of curiousity if Kenny had killed Ben would people advocate him been kicked out of the group?
Yes, I would have. I'd feel bad for doing it, but then he wouldn't be trustworthy anymore. I didn't "like" Ben, but I didn't hate him. I understood Kenny's anger, and I was one of those who said "I agree Kenny, you should kick his ass, but now is not the time! We have to get the fuck out of here!" with Clem and all listening lol. But I never dropped him. Killing people for their mistakes is wrong until it is with justifiable means. If Ben had purposely killed Katjaa and Duck, purposely been lying about what he did just to cause an uproar, then I wouldn't hesitate to pull the trigger. However, that wasn't the case, Ben wasn't a bad kid, he was just worthless(as good as that sounds xD). Kenny doing that to Ben wouldn't be as bad as Lilly killing Carley/Doug, but I think worse than Lee's crimes, which were heat-of-the-moment, maybe even defending himself really. So yeah, I'd leave him. Otherwise he'd have to be executed, and I wouldn't want to have to do that to an Ex-friend.
Kenny wasn't setting out to kill Larry, he was making sure he couldn't come back as a walker, believing he couldn't be saved and was going to kill everyone. Whether you think that's the right or the wrong call, Its not a murder.
One of Kenny or Lilly will leave you for dead regardless of your call in the meat-locker, i think both of them feel you left them when they needed you so they'll do the same.
Lilly also noticeably has a much less redeemable motive, killing someone who did nothing to her.
Thinking that you have a proper reason to kill someone doesn't automatically mean that it isn't murder... I may believe that I have a justifiable reason to kill your only family, but that doesn't mean that you'll agree.
Choosing not to save someone when it's within your power is still potentially killing them. Lilly doesn't save Lee if he kills her dad, while Kenny leaves Lee twice because he tried to give Larry a chance.
In the end Lilly believed she was aiming for the traitor. It was irrational and unjustified, but I don't see Kenny as much more defendable. Neither of them is inherently bad, but they both did terrible things in terrible situations. Either trying to help their family or the group.
Of course i would, but even in that scenario he still had far better justification than Lilly. I'm sure a very large number of people in this day and age would readily kill someone who played a large part in getting their family killed. That doesn't make it right, but it's understandable. In contrast i doubt very many relate with Lilly, killing someone solely because they stood up to you.
That's not what happened. She shot Doug accidently and Carly because she was being irrational and thought Carly was a collaborator with their enemy and nearly got them the group killed. I felt really sorry for Ben at the end of the day he was just a stupid kid. Part of me wonders though if he didn't start trading with the bandits would they have rushed Lee's group and killed them all. It's one of those things we'll never be sure of. Lee's group only really had him, Lilly, Carly and Kenny as "warriors" the bandits with the element of suprise of their side could have wiped them out with ease.
Thinking that you have a proper reason to kill someone doesn't automatically mean that it isn't murder... I may believe that I have a justifiable reason to kill your only family, but that doesn't mean that you'll agree.
Choosing not to save someone when it's within your power is still potentially killing them. Lilly doesn't save Lee if he kills her dad, while Kenny leaves Lee twice because he tried to give Larry a chance.
In the end Lilly believed she was aiming for the traitor. It was irrational and unjustified, but I don't see Kenny as much more defendable. Neither of them is inherently bad, but they both did terrible things in terrible situations. Either trying to help their family or the group.
I'm not trying to defend what Kenny does. He has some seriously bad moments in the game. Its his major character flaw that he thinks of every disagreement as treason. It isn't much more defendable you're right, but that little bit stops him from crossing the irredeemably line in my mind.
Imagine if instead of just not saving Lee, he walked over and stabbed him. The effect may be the same but the mindset it requires is different.
In short, not trying to defend Kenny, merely saying that in my eyes what Lilly does to Carley/Doug (especially given the incredibly weak reasoning) is even worse.
That's not what happened. She shot Doug accidently and Carly because she was being irrational and thought Carly was a collaborator with their enemy and nearly got them the group killed. I felt really sorry for Ben at the end of the day he was just a stupid kid. Part of me wonders though if he didn't start trading with the bandits would they have rushed Lee's group and killed them all. It's one of those things we'll never be sure of. Lee's group only really had him, Lilly, Carly and Kenny as "warriors" the bandits with the element of suprise of their side could have wiped them out with ease.
Yeah she believed Carley was the collaborator, but ask yourself why? The only reason i remember giving was that "this is about trust and i have never trusted you". She jumps the conclusion that it was Carley purely because of a long running (one-way) resentment. Linking back to Carley disobeying her orders to let Lee,Kenny,Kat,Duck and Clem die in episode 1. Look at Lilly's scowl when she called Kenny boss.
She stands up to her again in episode 2, before finally in episode 3 at which point Lilly says "i have had enough of you" and kills her.
And Doug may have been an accident but she still meant to hit Ben! In that version of events i am more inclined to believe she was trying to help the group in a twisted way, since with Carley dead she's able to try and spot the traitor without being blinded by hate. (although judging by her reaction to Ben in episode 2 it may not even be any different. Have yet to really assess the Doug version of events in any detail)
That's not what happened. She shot Doug accidently and Carly because she was being irrational and thought Carly was a collaborator with their enemy and nearly got them the group killed. I felt really sorry for Ben at the end of the day he was just a stupid kid. Part of me wonders though if he didn't start trading with the bandits would they have rushed Lee's group and killed them all. It's one of those things we'll never be sure of. Lee's group only really had him, Lilly, Carly and Kenny as "warriors" the bandits with the element of suprise of their side could have wiped them out with ease.
That doesn't refute Mornai's point.
If Kenny killed Ben, he would at least have a justification based on known facts: Ben's action caused a massive chain of reactions resulting in death after death. Ben admits this. There's no if and but's about guilt, just whether Kenny would be justified in killing that POS Ben.
When it came to Lilly, all she knew was supplies were stolen but there was NO CONCRETE evidence as to the guilty party. She chose to shoot someone anyway.
And what it came to Carley, Lilly was being malicious plain and simple. Lilly was by then convinced, even without evidence, that Ben was guilty during the conversation outside the RV. Moments before Carley snapped at her, Lilly told Lee "What more proof do you need?" when Ben basically broke down in a panic. The Doug scene further confirms that Lilly was convinced Ben was the traitor. So, Lilly only pulled the trigger because someone who she already disliked since episode 1 had the spine to stand up to her. IMHO, it had nothing to do with the supplies, and Lilly simply used that as an excuse to try and convince Lee to not kick her out.
Back to my original point, Mornai is right that at least Kenny would have justification whereas Lilly had zero.
I'm not trying to defend what Kenny does. He has some seriously bad moments in the game. Its his major character flaw that he thinks of every disagreement as treason. It isn't much more defendable you're right, but that little bit stops him from crossing the irredeemably line in my mind.
Imagine if instead of just not saving Lee, he walked over and stabbed him. The effect may be the same but the mindset it requires is different.
In short, not trying to defend Kenny, merely saying that in my eyes what Lilly does to Carley/Doug (especially given the incredibly weak reasoning) is even worse.
I may have felt more along those lines if he had stopped at killing Larry. I thought that was terrible, but him proceeding to abandon Lee and potentially Clem after all that he had tried to do for his family could really further a negative perception of him. It wasn't pragmatism at that point, he was a fair-weather friend.
Knowing that he didn't kill me himself wouldn't grant me much comfort while I was being torn apart.
Fair enough. Though part of me does blame Kenny and Ben for her mental breakdown, the group wasn't just going to move on from shooting each other on the side of the road like that.
And what it came to Carley, Lilly was being malicious plain and simple. Lilly was by then convinced, even without evidence, that Ben was guilty during the conversation outside the RV. Moments before Carley snapped at her, Lilly told Lee "What more proof do you need?" when Ben basically broke down in a panic. The Doug scene further confirms that Lilly was convinced Ben was the traitor. So, Lilly only pulled the trigger because someone who she already disliked since episode 1 had the spine to stand up to her. IMHO, it had nothing to do with the supplies, and Lilly simply used that as an excuse to try and convince Lee to not kick her out.
It seems even more likely that she didn't care about the supplies by this little line of hers: "You can tell me it was Carley, and everything will be right as rain." Does this mean she was willing to forgive Ben even if she suspected him if he agreed to accuse Carley? It seems like she didn't really care who was the true culprit, as long as someone took the blame, and whoever did that would receive the bullet.
If Kenny killed Ben, he would at least have a justification based on known facts: Ben's action caused a massive chain of reactions resulting in death after death. Ben admits this. There's no if and but's about guilt, just whether Kenny would be justified in killing that POS Ben.
When it came to Lilly, all she knew was supplies were stolen but there was NO CONCRETE evidence as to the guilty party. She chose to shoot someone anyway.
And what it came to Carley, Lilly was being malicious plain and simple. Lilly was by then convinced, even without evidence, that Ben was guilty during the conversation outside the RV. Moments before Carley snapped at her, Lilly told Lee "What more proof do you need?" when Ben basically broke down in a panic. The Doug scene further confirms that Lilly was convinced Ben was the traitor. So, Lilly only pulled the trigger because someone who she already disliked since episode 1 had the spine to stand up to her. IMHO, it had nothing to do with the supplies, and Lilly simply used that as an excuse to try and convince Lee to not kick her out.
Back to my original point, Mornai is right that at least Kenny would have justification whereas Lilly had zero.
Because Mornai's point to me is not valid unless Lilly was operating with her full faculties. She was not. She was losing her mind and the expectation that she should have been more rational doesn't hold up me to at all. Maybe she didn't like Carley but shooting her, planning it out because she hated her. That's just bullshit. Lilly at the point was just not capable of being that calculated if she ever was. She was shocked at what she did. Some people might not think she felt guilt, I don't believe that but fair enough if you it but shock was all over her face after she shot. There was nothing planned.
Ben was clearly guilty. It was all over his face. In his mannerisms. Either way neither Kenny or Lilly had justification to kill him. He was a child who made a mistake. He wasn't responsible for happened to Katjaa, Duck, or Carley. Even Kenny realized that by the end of the game. Maybe Lilly could have had that kind of a realization had she stuck around. To me Lilly and Kenny were practically the same person.
Comments
How is what Vernon did worse? Lilly directly killed someone for no good reason. Vernon stole a boat to protect his own group of people. Not having a boat did not kill Lee's group. A bullet in the face did kill Carley/Doug. At worst, Vernon took away a pipe dream that Kenny more or less forced the group to go along with.
I am sure that Vernon would have killed those who were left to guard the boat if Vernon was armed, and if those who guarded the boat resisted too much.
So your argument is that you expect someone losing their mind to make rational decisions?
There wasn't enough time for that to be a pre-meditated murder.
The way I saw it, Lily was the group's responsibility. She might have been paranoid but she'd worked to keep the group alive. She only started to lose it after the group murdered her father. You can argue it was for survival but her decline was a result of our decision so whatever she did next was on us. That's the way I saw it.
I've only just read that comic. I got the first compendium second arrived this morning. The woodbury citizens were conned by the governor into attacking the prison. They thought the people in the prison had murdered their people. When that Lily shot that mother she was under the impression she was an enemy assailant and when she saw that woman was holding a baby she flipped out and executed the governor for his manipulation.
If Kenny did survive for me the most interesting scenario would be that it's him and Lilly on that mountain. At this point they've both lost everything and argubably as a result of each other. That dynamic would be interesting and I could see them both wanting to protect Clementine as the only surviving member of their original group. I think it could be cool playing things from both their perspectives with both playable.
Vernon was armed. That's how his people were able to take the boat, even if Kenny, Ben, Christa and Omid are there to defend it. The weapons were simply a deterrent. Vernon could have easily killed one of them, but didn't. All he wanted was the boat.
Even if there was a fight and someone did get killed, Vernon had a valid reason. He knew there was a boat. He knew it worked, thanks to Kenny working on it. He saw it as a chance of survival for his entire group, so he went for it. Losing it meant that Lee's group would have to carry on same as they have been. No better, no worse. That's not to say I'm not angry at Vernon for his double-cross, but he wasn't in the wrong for doing it.
On the other hand, Lilly actually steals the one thing that saved the group's life earlier that day; the RV. Without it, the group is stranded. They had no idea that they could operate a train at that point. She placed her own safety (which wasn't even at risk) over the rest of the group after she had been given a chance to make up for the atrocity she just committed. That is worse than a man (who risked his life and lost a close friend while trying to help a stranger get his own group supplies) taking a vehicle that neither group has a full claim of while making sure to avoid causing any lasting harm to the opposition.
I don't know. Kenny's pretty impulsive. When he found out Ben was responsible for Katjaa and Duck's deaths, he attacked him outright. As for Lilly...they didn't exactly part on the best of terms either. To make Kenny not do the same to Lilly, she'd have to be in really bad shape by the time he finds her. (The chances of this happening are awfully slim, anyway. Lilly was far away from Savannah at the time she left the group, and Telltale might think having them reunite would be too much of a coincidence.)
I don't think there's any force on Earth that could stop Kenny from tearing Vernon apart if he saw him again.
I don't know for other people, but I've never 'liked' Lilly. She's just not a likeable character. She tries to be a leader and yet cares more over her father than the group(which I'd be okay with if she wasn't leader). She always takes a more aggresive approach to solving matters, such as the attack on the bandits and the violent outbursts on others. She is also very defensive of her father(which I understand somewhat) but when Larry threatens others and starts his temper isn't she partially responsible to calm him down? That would have stopped his heart attack, right? I disliked the fact that no matter what you do for her she is angry at you, blames you for situations you had no control over, and leaves you and the group to die if you forgive her and let her back in the RV. She kills another group member in cold blood and causes paranoia and stress to the others. I feel like she treats the people who have helped her and her father like shit for little reason. I understand her grief and sorrow, and I forgave some of her outbursts toward other people, but isn't there a certain limit?
I know I prefered Carley over Doug, but does it really matter about the sexuality of it? She was a female, yeah, and I admit I hoped Lee would have a relationship in the game. Doesn't mean I saved Carley for those reasons. I tried to save them both, and after playing both sides, Carley's is much better, and frankly you get closer to her as a person. Doug's a cool guy though. Shame either of them die.
Carley pressured her, yes. But didn't Lilly first? She was just trying to defend herself. Same as Ben. Lilly was being antagonistic toward her/Ben since the moment she stepped in the RV(or close to it). Carley and/or Ben never pull a gun out on her.
I can't say I liked her for killing Carley, but that wasn't why I hate her as a character. And hate is a strong word. I don't know if I'd like to see her in a interqual, but I wouldn't want her as a playable character. And now that she is an 'original' character, if she returns in season 2 I MIGHT be able to forgive what she did, just as I forgave Ben's actions, and liked him till his end.
I'd like to see episode 1.5 just because I liked Mark. I liked him more than Doug, really. But I think other choices of storyline'd be preferable.
First off, it's nice to meet a fellow Lily supporter. Second, I too suggested this earlier. Kenny and Lily play pretty well off each other, and that makes them both entertaining and realistic. Kenny will most likely want to protect Clem to honor his fallen friend Lee. As for Lily, she know's she killed Carly/Doug, and she most likely feels guilty for what just may be the biggest mistake of her life. However, even though she made that mistake, Lee chose not to kill her. He either left her on the side of the road, or brought her back in the RV, but again, Lee chose not to kill her despite the fact that most people would have, and I think Lily realizes that. To honor Lee, she would protect Clem with her life. At least that's how I see it, and that's if the two people walking in the distance at the end of season one are Kenny and Lily. Fingers crossed.
"She couldn't be trusted. Lee, please."
Trying to rationalize what she had done. Damnit Lilly...
Hahah, they play off each other about as well as two rabid dogs sharing a bunk.
Though the idea of them both surviving only to meet up again in the same place and start traveling together is pretty farfetched on multiple levels, I admit it's an interesting concept. Both did terrible things trying to protect what they had, and both ended up losing everything.
1. Pissed off
2. Pissed off
3. Pissed off
4. Scowl silently
Okay, that's a bit of an exaggeration. But the point is, TTG can't really deviate too far from Lilly's character, especially if it takes places between episodes 1, 2, 3 (I am betting between 1 and 2). They run the risk of messing up the character otherwise by letting players define her. Perhaps if it took place after episode 3, but still, there are limitations.
Lee would make the most sense because he's basically a blank slate that we've been filling in as players. Asshole Lee? Sure. Diplomatic Lee? Go for it. Mute Lee? Hell yeah!
Now now, her dialogue choices would probably be more along the lines of.
1. Whine About How Hard Life Is
2. Mega Bitch Mode Activate!
3. Invoke Goodwin's Law
4. Shoot Them... Then Complain About How Hard Life Is
And don't even say losing Larry justifies what she did. It's a zombie apocalypse, keeping your shit together is necessary. Especially if said person wants to play leader.
Agreed. Look at Kenny, not only does he lose wife but his son as well, and they both die right in front of his eyes. On top of that he(may) be forced to kill his own son, yet he kept it together, just barely. I didn't see Lilly having to drop the salt lick on Larry's head.
Exactly. For me murdering another group member, for no reason other than your own spite is the cardinal sin. I also hate the argument that its somehow only a big deal because it was Carley. If its Doug or had it been Ben, Kenny, Kat, Lee, etc my opinion is still the same.
Her mental state was obviously very poor, but had she really been through worse than everyone else, Lee in particular goes through so much shit and loses so many friends but is thinking clearly in order to help whose's left right until the end. If a similar killing to what Lilly did happened in real life you'd probably get committed to an institution, but that luxury doesn't exist any more when Zombies roll into town. If what Carley did was enough to warrant a murder in her eyes then she's a danger to everyone.
Others kill the game but never so completely without justification and the only provocation she got from Carley was the the person who had done nothing to her and she was viscously accusing of being a traitor (along with then bullying Ben to try and get him to accuse her as well) with absolutely no evidence called her a bitch. For me that is unforgivable.
I mean where do people expect the relationship to go from here. I am supposed to happily welcome back, work with, have small talk and ever trust the person who did that? I was fairly neutral and sympathetic before the murder, but that attitude can never return.
It would be hugely disillusioning if season two or any DLC forces me into buddying up with Lilly. It would take me out of the game completely. If she's determent and you get to make the call (Kill, Send her packing, forgive), i could live with that.
I agree completely. At least some people understand why I hate her guts and can't trust/forgive her. I've only mentioned trying to forgive Lilly if I have no other choice. If she stays I can't just be a dick to her can I? Oh... Wait(evil music) I CAN!!!!!!!
Seriously if we get that choice I'm either killing her or leaving her. If I leave her again at least I know she isn't coming back.
"Lilly shouldn't be hated! I mean, all she did was kill someone."
God those people simply do not understand the value of a human life.
Well, plenty of people defend Kenny after killing Larry, and then potentially leaving Lee for dead despite what he could have done for his family prior.
I don't condone what Lilly did, she had obviously lost it at that point, and I don't think that Larry's death justified it, it just helps explain her deteriorating mental state.
Out of curiousity if Kenny had killed Ben would people advocate him been kicked out of the group?
I would. If killing is just something people start jumping to in order to solve their problems, then I have a huge problem. But if it's only done out of necessity, then I can forgive. It's still something that needs to be carefully analyzed. Lilly didn't think it through. Kenny thought it over when he killed Larry. While I still think Kenny was too hasty, he did have justification. If he killed Ben in Crawford, then I would have lost all respect for the man.
Hugely different situations.
Kenny wasn't setting out to kill Larry, he was making sure he couldn't come back as a walker, believing he couldn't be saved and was going to kill everyone. Whether you think that's the right or the wrong call, Its not a murder.
One of Kenny or Lilly will leave you for dead regardless of your call in the meat-locker, i think both of them feel you left them when they needed you so they'll do the same. Its difficult to judge and set up while It is really very bad i would still class in a lower tier than actually having that extra level of venom to coldly pull the trigger yourself.
Lilly also noticeably has a much less redeemable motive, killing someone who did nothing to her.
Of course i would, but even in that scenario he still had far better justification than Lilly. I'm sure a very large number of people in this day and age would readily kill someone who played a large part in getting their family killed. That doesn't make it right, but it's understandable. In contrast i doubt very many relate with Lilly, killing someone solely because they stood up to you.
I really hated Ben as well.
While you can also compare what the victim has done to earn their deaths.
Carley: Called Lilly a bitch after being repeatedly accused with no evidence
Ben (By Lilly, if you chose Doug): Taking supplies (accused with no evidence but correct)
Ben (By Kenny): Causing the death of his wife and son, Stolen supplies (confirmed and admitted), General fuck up.
The last one is a much better reason to be very very angry. I would still be very pissed if he had shot him though. I wouldn't want to take revenge of leave him to die as such like i do with Lilly, Its more understandable but like others have said that wouldn't make it right and certainly we couldn't be friends anymore if that was his approach. I would have looked to separate with Clem at the first opportunity.
Perhaps a little hypocritical since i dropped Ben but i suspect if he'd been begging me for help instead on telling me to drop him, more of a "if you want to kill yourself, fine" than putting a gun to his head and pulling the trigger.
Yes, I would have. I'd feel bad for doing it, but then he wouldn't be trustworthy anymore. I didn't "like" Ben, but I didn't hate him. I understood Kenny's anger, and I was one of those who said "I agree Kenny, you should kick his ass, but now is not the time! We have to get the fuck out of here!" with Clem and all listening lol. But I never dropped him. Killing people for their mistakes is wrong until it is with justifiable means. If Ben had purposely killed Katjaa and Duck, purposely been lying about what he did just to cause an uproar, then I wouldn't hesitate to pull the trigger. However, that wasn't the case, Ben wasn't a bad kid, he was just worthless(as good as that sounds xD). Kenny doing that to Ben wouldn't be as bad as Lilly killing Carley/Doug, but I think worse than Lee's crimes, which were heat-of-the-moment, maybe even defending himself really. So yeah, I'd leave him. Otherwise he'd have to be executed, and I wouldn't want to have to do that to an Ex-friend.
Choosing not to save someone when it's within your power is still potentially killing them. Lilly doesn't save Lee if he kills her dad, while Kenny leaves Lee twice because he tried to give Larry a chance.
In the end Lilly believed she was aiming for the traitor. It was irrational and unjustified, but I don't see Kenny as much more defendable. Neither of them is inherently bad, but they both did terrible things in terrible situations. Either trying to help their family or the group.
I'm not trying to defend what Kenny does. He has some seriously bad moments in the game. Its his major character flaw that he thinks of every disagreement as treason. It isn't much more defendable you're right, but that little bit stops him from crossing the irredeemably line in my mind.
Imagine if instead of just not saving Lee, he walked over and stabbed him. The effect may be the same but the mindset it requires is different.
In short, not trying to defend Kenny, merely saying that in my eyes what Lilly does to Carley/Doug (especially given the incredibly weak reasoning) is even worse.
Yeah she believed Carley was the collaborator, but ask yourself why? The only reason i remember giving was that "this is about trust and i have never trusted you". She jumps the conclusion that it was Carley purely because of a long running (one-way) resentment. Linking back to Carley disobeying her orders to let Lee,Kenny,Kat,Duck and Clem die in episode 1. Look at Lilly's scowl when she called Kenny boss.
She stands up to her again in episode 2, before finally in episode 3 at which point Lilly says "i have had enough of you" and kills her.
And Doug may have been an accident but she still meant to hit Ben! In that version of events i am more inclined to believe she was trying to help the group in a twisted way, since with Carley dead she's able to try and spot the traitor without being blinded by hate. (although judging by her reaction to Ben in episode 2 it may not even be any different. Have yet to really assess the Doug version of events in any detail)
That doesn't refute Mornai's point.
If Kenny killed Ben, he would at least have a justification based on known facts: Ben's action caused a massive chain of reactions resulting in death after death. Ben admits this. There's no if and but's about guilt, just whether Kenny would be justified in killing that POS Ben.
When it came to Lilly, all she knew was supplies were stolen but there was NO CONCRETE evidence as to the guilty party. She chose to shoot someone anyway.
And what it came to Carley, Lilly was being malicious plain and simple. Lilly was by then convinced, even without evidence, that Ben was guilty during the conversation outside the RV. Moments before Carley snapped at her, Lilly told Lee "What more proof do you need?" when Ben basically broke down in a panic. The Doug scene further confirms that Lilly was convinced Ben was the traitor. So, Lilly only pulled the trigger because someone who she already disliked since episode 1 had the spine to stand up to her. IMHO, it had nothing to do with the supplies, and Lilly simply used that as an excuse to try and convince Lee to not kick her out.
Back to my original point, Mornai is right that at least Kenny would have justification whereas Lilly had zero.
Knowing that he didn't kill me himself wouldn't grant me much comfort while I was being torn apart.
Fair enough. Though part of me does blame Kenny and Ben for her mental breakdown, the group wasn't just going to move on from shooting each other on the side of the road like that.
It seems even more likely that she didn't care about the supplies by this little line of hers: "You can tell me it was Carley, and everything will be right as rain." Does this mean she was willing to forgive Ben even if she suspected him if he agreed to accuse Carley? It seems like she didn't really care who was the true culprit, as long as someone took the blame, and whoever did that would receive the bullet.
Ben was clearly guilty. It was all over his face. In his mannerisms. Either way neither Kenny or Lilly had justification to kill him. He was a child who made a mistake. He wasn't responsible for happened to Katjaa, Duck, or Carley. Even Kenny realized that by the end of the game. Maybe Lilly could have had that kind of a realization had she stuck around. To me Lilly and Kenny were practically the same person.