No way I'd leave a kid like Clem to die to a herd by being selfish.
I've said this before, but if a group of strangers led a horde to my home, got a member of my group killed, and was about to abandon me and my friends to die from the walkers they brought in the first place, I wouldn't hesitate to steal there boat. Child I barely know be damned, I'm not about to sacrifice my life and the lives of my friends for strangers who ruined our lives.
I've said this before, but if a group of strangers led a horde to my home, got a member of my group killed, and was about to abandon me and my friends to die from the walkers they brought in the first place, I wouldn't hesitate to steal there boat. Child I barely know be damned, I'm not about to sacrifice my life and the lives of my friends for strangers who ruined our lives.
I don't think I could live with letting a kid die when I could have prevented it. Plus the group did get Vernon's group medicine which could save alot of them if they get sick, I think it was Brie's own fault that she died I mean one of the first rules of a ZA is never have your back turned to a door!
I don't think I could live with letting a kid die when I could have prevented it. Plus the group did get Vernon's group medicine which could save alot of them if they get sick, I think it was Brie's own fault that she died I mean one of the first rules of a ZA is never have your back turned to a door!
I could if it meant saving my friends. And Brie died because Ben and Kenny thought it was a brilliant idea to stage a drama while they were being attacked by walkers.
True but we all knew Crawford was going to be dangerous and she did volunteer to go. I can Understand why Vernon did it but that doesn't stop me from hating him for doing it.
Vernon needed the medicine for his group just as much as Lee and Co. needed the boat parts. He even says during the Crawford raid that "Times like these, we all gotta stick together" or something to that effect. Boyd even mentions that Vernon ALWAYS wanted the boat, and his obsession with it is what tore apart their group in the end. As for Brie, Ben got her killed, not Kenny. He was just told that Ben had gotten his entire family killed, and had lied to him about it since it happened. I think it's kind of hard to throw the blame on Kenny when EVERYONE knew full well what his reaction would be.
Vernons group got alot out of going to Crawford which they wouldn't have been able to do without Lee's group and considering Joyce,Clive and Boyd where still alive 200+ days into the ZA I'm guessing that medicine came in handy.
Vernon needed the medicine for his group just as much as Lee and Co. needed the boat parts. He even says during the Crawford raid that "Times like these, we all gotta stick together" or something to that effect. Boyd even mentions that Vernon ALWAYS wanted the boat, and his obsession with it is what tore apart their group in the end. As for Brie, Ben got her killed, not Kenny. He was just told that Ben had gotten his entire family killed, and had lied to him about it since it happened. I think it's kind of hard to throw the blame on Kenny when EVERYONE knew full well what his reaction would be.
I think if Vernon's group ended up really needing those meds, they would've gotten desperate enough to go to Crawford eventually even if Lee never showed up. Which would've been fine since there was no one left there anyways.
Also:
"Times like these, we all gotta stick together."
"That's nice Vernon, now if you don't mind we're just gonna ride this boat off into the sunset and leave you all to die.:p"
And I wasn't blaming Kenny, just meant that it was him and Ben who were arguing.:)
I just get ticked off that the only reasons anyone ever gives for hating Vernon is HE STOLE THE BOAT (well thanks, I never wanted the damn thing in the first place:D) or HE LEFT US TO DIE (oh, just like what we were about to do to him?)
I think if Vernon's group ended up really needing those meds, they would've gotten desperate enough to go to Crawford eventually even if Lee never showed up. Which would've been fine since there was no one left there anyways.
Also:
"Times like these, we all gotta stick together."
"That's nice Vernon, now if you don't mind we're just gonna ride this boat off into the sunset and leave you all to die.:p"
And I wasn't blaming Kenny, just meant that it was him and Ben who were arguing.:)
I just get ticked off that the only reasons anyone ever gives for hating Vernon is HE STOLE THE BOAT (well thanks, I never wanted the damn thing in the first place:D) or HE LEFT US TO DIE (oh, just like what we were about to do to him?)
Vernon chose to conceal the fact that the horde was coming, so he DID leave us to die. Lee and Co. never even knew what was going on until the walkers were literally at the morgue's door. He knew that taking that boat meant the deaths of 5 good people and a child. And still, Boyd said that he ALWAYS wanted the boat, even BEFORE the herd showed up. Since our group was the one that had the idea, and made the trek to Savannah, and found the boat, why does Vernon get free reign to steal it from us? That actually DOES get Kenny and Ben (determinant) killed. Possibly Omid and Christa (a pregnant woman) as well.
I also find it hard to believe that the Cancer Survivors would have raided Crawford, even if they had no other choice. His reaction when the idea is brought up at the manor pretty much confirms he wouldn't. He KNOWS that they would have had him shot had he returned. Maybe they would have even tortured him to find out where his group and their supplies were. He would never go back there, no matter the reason, because it would be a death sentence for him and anyone he brought. They had no idea that everyone had died, and Vernon knows he couldn't take on Oberson and his psychopaths.
Vernon chose to conceal the fact that the horde was coming, so he DID leave us to die. Lee and Co. never even knew what was going on until the walkers were literally at the morgue's door. He knew that taking that boat meant the deaths of 5 good people and a child. And still, Boyd said that he ALWAYS wanted the boat, even BEFORE the herd showed up. Since our group was the one that had the idea, and made the trek to Savannah, and found the boat, why does Vernon get free reign to steal it from us? That actually DOES get Kenny and Ben (determinant) killed. Possibly Omid and Christa (a pregnant woman) as well.
I also find it hard to believe that the Cancer Survivors would have raided Crawford, even if they had no other choice. His reaction when the idea is brought up at the manor pretty much confirms he wouldn't. He KNOWS that they would have had him shot had he returned. Maybe they would have even tortured him to find out where his group and their supplies were. He would never go back there, no matter the reason, because it would be a death sentence for him and anyone he brought. They had no idea that everyone had died, and Vernon knows he couldn't take on Oberson and his psychopaths.
He obviously concealed that because he knew if Lee and co. knew about the herd, he'd have no chance to steal the boat from them. And so what if he wanted the boat the whole time? Like Christa says the cancer group suffered for a long time and it's no wonder they'd want to escape Savannah. He doesn't have free reign to steal the boat, but I'd say he has as much claim to the thing as everyone else. It was thanks to him they got the boat working, and it was him who lost a group member at Crawford. Plus, he had no idea Christa was pregnant, and I can't blame him for not giving a shit about Ben (a moody useless teenager from what he's seen) and Kenny (a violent unstable drunk from his POV). Too bad he never got to see how awesome Omid was, huh?:D
And I think if things got desperate enough, he'd at least leave the fallout shelter to look for supplies. He leads Lee to the mansion, leaving the sewers in the process, before he learns Crawford was overrun. If he spent enough time outside of the sewers looking for meds, I think he'd notice the absence of Crawford...people. Crawfordites?
He obviously concealed that because he knew if Lee and co. knew about the herd, he'd have no chance to steal the boat from them. And so what if he wanted the boat the whole time? Like Christa says the cancer group suffered for a long time and it's no wonder they'd want to escape Savannah. He doesn't have free reign to steal the boat, but I'd say he has as much claim to the thing as everyone else. It was thanks to him they got the boat working, and it was him who lost a group member at Crawford. Plus, he had no idea Christa was pregnant, and I can't blame him for not giving a shit about Ben (a moody useless teenager from what he's seen) and Kenny (a violent unstable drunk from his POV). Too bad he never got to see how awesome Omid was, huh?:D
And I think if things got desperate enough, he'd at least leave the fallout shelter to look for supplies. He leads Lee to the mansion, leaving the sewers in the process, before he learns Crawford was overrun. If he spent enough time outside of the sewers looking for meds, I think he'd notice the absence of Crawford...people. Crawfordites?
Crawfordians? Granted, Ben was useless, and Kenny CAN be a bit of a selfish, drunken asshat, but I can't exactly forgive him. I wouldn't have stolen the boat if another group had claimed it (and Lee and Co DID claim it, by all rights) unless our lives depended on it AND they were complete scum (which Lee and Co, even Kenny and Ben, are not). Perhaps it's the fact that hardly anybody saw it coming, given that he had helped us a ton during the raid, which made his betrayal all the worse since we trusted him (I know I did. I never thought he had Clem either), but the fact that he intended to steal it the entire time is what gets me. When Boyd said that, I lost what little empathy I had left for the man. If he only did it out of desperation, that would eb another story, but he didn't.
Crawfordians? Granted, Ben was useless, and Kenny CAN be a bit of a selfish, drunken asshat, but I can't exactly forgive him. I wouldn't have stolen the boat if another group had claimed it (and Lee and Co DID claim it, by all rights) unless our lives depended on it AND they were complete scum (which Lee and Co, even Kenny and Ben, are not). Perhaps it's the fact that hardly anybody saw it coming, given that he had helped us a ton during the raid, which made his betrayal all the worse since we trusted him (I know I did. I never thought he had Clem either), but the fact that he intended to steal it the entire time is what gets me. When Boyd said that, I lost what little empathy I had left for the man. If he only did it out of desperation, that would eb another story, but he didn't.
I like Crawfordians more.:)
So you're saying you would sacrifice yourself and your entire group for the sake of strangers if your life depended on it BUT they weren't complete scum? Then you're definitely a more selfless person than I. Though Lee CAN be a scumbag to Vernon if he threatens and lies to him.
And whether he initially intended to steal the boat the whole time or not, Vernon ultimately does steal it out of desperation. If he stole the boat when there weren't thousands of walkers swarming Savannah, it would be out of selfishness, not self-preservation and desperation.
I don't endorse Vernon's actions, but I can completely understand why he did it and sympathize with him. I'm baffled that people consider his actions to be unforgivably evil, thinking that he's some kind of disgusting, irredeemable MONSTER who needs to burn in the pits of hell or whatever.
So you're saying you would sacrifice yourself and your entire group for the sake of strangers if your life depended on it BUT they weren't complete scum? Then you're definitely a more selfless person than I. Though Lee CAN be a scumbag to Vernon if he threatens and lies to him.
And whether he initially intended to steal the boat the whole time or not, Vernon ultimately does steal it out of desperation. If he stole the boat when there weren't thousands of walkers swarming Savannah, it would be out of selfishness, not self-preservation and desperation.
I don't endorse Vernon's actions, but I can completely understand why he did it and sympathize with him. I'm baffled that people consider his actions to be unforgivably evil, thinking that he's some kind of disgusting, irredeemable MONSTER who needs to burn in the pits of hell or whatever.
I just couldn't bring myself to do that to good people. Now, if it was owned by some CRAWFORDIANS, or maybe the BANDITS, then I'll do it. I'll go in, take their boat, and shoot anyone in my way if I had to. I mean, if they're a group of good people, who am I to decide that my group is more worthy of survival than they are?
And for the record, I won't be sacrificing myself and my group. We'd try to find another way. I may not want to screw over another group, but I won't give up on surviving altogether.
I just couldn't bring myself to do that to good people. Now, if it was owned by some CRAWFORDIANS, or maybe the BANDITS, then I'll do it. I'll go in, take their boat, and shoot anyone in my way if I had to. I mean, if they're a group of good people, who am I to decide that my group is more worthy of survival than they are?
And for the record, I won't be sacrificing myself and my group. We'd try to find another way. I may not want to screw over another group, but I won't give up on surviving altogether.
Putting myself in Vernon's shoes, I would screw Lee's group over mostly because they were responsible for getting a member of my group killed. An eye for an eye and all that. You got my friend killed, so I'll leave you to die. I'd be giving them a fighting chance in this case, at the very least. Which seems more than fair to me.
Putting myself in Vernon's shoes, I would screw Lee's group over mostly because they were responsible for getting a member of my group killed. An eye for an eye and all that. You got my friend killed, so I'll leave you to die. I'd be giving them a fighting chance in this case, at the very least. Which seems more than fair to me.
Wait, how did Lee's group get Brie killed? VERNON was the one who brought her along. Lee could have even been against it. Sure Ben's little outburst distracted Brie but he can hardly be blamed for a zombie hand coming in out of nowhere and grabbing her. Maybe she shouldn't have been standing so close to a door with zombies right outside of it. I mean think about it: if, while everyone was listening to Vernon talk, a walker grabbed Clem, would you blame Vernon? Hell no. You'd blame yourself for bringing her to such a dangerous place and then go wallow in guilt while Vernon makes off with your damn boat.
Wait, how did Lee's group get Brie killed? VERNON was the one who brought her along. Lee could have even been against it. Sure Ben's little outburst distracted Brie but he can hardly be blamed for a zombie hand coming in out of nowhere and grabbing her. Maybe she shouldn't have been standing so close to a door with zombies right outside of it. I mean think about it: if, while everyone was listening to Vernon talk, a walker grabbed Clem, would you blame Vernon? Hell no. You'd blame yourself for bringing her to such a dangerous place and then go wallow in guilt while Vernon makes off with your damn boat.
I'd sure as hell blame Vernon if he was arguing and screaming with Brie and holding up the whole group while we were in the middle of escaping Crawford. Lee can tell both Kenny and Ben to save the fighting for later, that it wasn't the time for it. And Brie was holding the door shut to keep out walkers while Kenny and Ben were pointlessly arguing. I don't blame her for dying there anymore than I blame Doug for trying to barricade a window with his body.
Ben got Brie killed, not Lee's group. Screwing over Ben is... well, I can't bring myself to say that it's OK because he never meant to hurt anyone. He's a good kid, just a walking disaster, and dumb as a bag of hammers to boot. I couldn't justify leaving an entire group to die like that just because one of them fucked up. I'd hate Ben for certain, and possibly the rest of the group simply by affiliation, but I'd never steal from them like that (unless, of course, they were scum anyway).
Ben got Brie killed, not Lee's group. Screwing over Ben is... well, I can't bring myself to say that it's OK because he never meant to hurt anyone. He's a good kid, just a walking disaster, and dumb as a bag of hammers to boot. I couldn't justify leaving an entire group to die like that just because one of them fucked up. I'd hate Ben for certain, and possibly the rest of the group simply by affiliation, but I'd never steal from them like that (unless, of course, they were scum anyway).
I guess it comes down to personal philosophy and stuff. In this case, I could justify leaving them since I would at least be giving them a chance to survive, which would be more than Brie ever got.
Anyways, I still find it ridiculous that people actually think Vernon is some kind of horrific subhuman supervillian.
I guess it comes down to personal philosophy and stuff. In this case, I could justify leaving them since I would at least be giving them a chance to survive, which would be more than Brie ever got.
Anyways, I still find it ridiculous that people actually think Vernon is some kind of horrific subhuman supervillian.
Subhuman supervillain, he is not. Irredeemable monster, he is not. A good person, he ALSO is not (IMO). Since he always intended on taking it, according to the others, I can't view him as a good person or forgive him for what he did. His actions directly resulted in the deaths of Kenny and Ben (Determinant), so he'd have to do something miraculous to make up for them (if he were still alive, of course).
I guess it comes down to personal philosophy and stuff. In this case, I could justify leaving them since I would at least be giving them a chance to survive, which would be more than Brie ever got.
Anyways, I still find it ridiculous that people actually think Vernon is some kind of horrific subhuman supervillian.
But it's not like it was a deliberate choice with Brie. Ben and Kenny weren't thinking "Hmm, I understand that us standing here arguing will result in Brie, who is barricading the door with her body (I actually hadn't realized this...good on her), getting her intestines ripped out but fuck it." However, Vernon DID think "Hmm, I understand that me stealing these peoples' boat would leave them stranded here while a hoard of zombies that I didn't warn them about is approaching." I mean I'm not a saint by any means but it wouldn't even OCCUR to me to not tell someone about a hoard of approaching zombies just so I can steal their boat. That was dick move. Not villainous per se, but a really, really dick move.
But it's not like it was a deliberate choice with Brie. Ben and Kenny weren't thinking "Hmm, I understand that us standing here arguing will result in Brie, who is barricading the door with her body (I actually hadn't realized this...good on her), getting her intestines ripped out but fuck it." However, Vernon DID think "Hmm, I understand that me stealing these peoples' boat would leave them stranded here while a hoard of zombies that I didn't warn them about is approaching." I mean I'm not a saint by any means but it wouldn't even OCCUR to me to not tell someone about a hoard of approaching zombies just so I can steal their boat. That was dick move. Not villainous per se, but a really, really dick move.
Ben was, however, thinking "Oh, I just let a massive crowd of walkers into the school and we should really escape right now, but instead I'm going to put everyone in danger by holding them up so I can confess to Kenny to selfishly make myself feel better about my stupidity." Not to mention Lee knew the walkers were coming as well, and standing around pointlessly arguing was putting everyone in danger. Brie especially as she was holding the door shut.
And yeah, leaving Lee's group to die was a dick move, but it was completely understandable. Had he told Lee and co. that a horde was coming, they wouldn't have been so lax about keeping the boat safe and Vernon would've had no chance of stealing it. Vernon was a dick to Lee's group, but he wasn't evil and he didn't (doesn't?) deserve to suffer a torturous death for looking out for his own group.
Ben was, however, thinking "Oh, I just let a massive crowd of walkers into the school and we should really escape right now, but instead I'm going to put everyone in danger by holding them up so I can confess to Kenny to selfishly make myself feel better about my stupidity." Not to mention Lee knew the walkers were coming as well, and standing around pointlessly arguing was putting everyone in danger. Brie especially as she was holding the door shut.
And yeah, leaving Lee's group to die was a dick move, but it was completely understandable. Had he told Lee and co. that a horde was coming, they wouldn't have been so lax about keeping the boat safe and Vernon would've had no chance of stealing it. Vernon was a dick to Lee's group, but he wasn't evil and he didn't deserve to suffer a torturous death for looking out for his own group.
Yeah, I'm just not going to argue against the Ben thing. He was...particularly dense in that scene. I must point out, though, that moments before Brie died, she was actually trying to join in on that pointless argument that Ben was having with Kenny. So the list of people who thought that the conversation was worth having despite the hoard of undead clamoring outside has Brie's name on it. Of course, that just makes them ALL idiots in my opinion but that's another matter.
You know who else was a dick to Lee's group but looked out for his own group? Andy St. John. Granted, his actions were more extreme (understatement, I know) but I'm just saying that looking out for your own group doesn't count for much when you're knowingly leaving people to die.
Yeah, I'm just not going to argue against the Ben thing. He was...particularly dense in that scene. I must point out, though, that moments before Brie died, she was actually trying to join in on that pointless argument that Ben was having with Kenny. So the list of people who thought that the conversation was worth having despite the hoard of undead clamoring outside has Brie's name on it. Of course, that just makes them ALL idiots in my opinion but that's another matter.
You know who else was a dick to Lee's group but looked out for his own group? Andy St. John. Granted, his actions were more extreme (understatement, I know) but I'm just saying that looking out for your own group doesn't count for much when you're knowingly leaving people to die.
They WERE all idiots, huh?:) Molly and Vernon (and possibly Lee) seemed to be the only ones who realized it wasn't the time for screaming matches and tallying votes. I'll let them off by saying they were all probably caught up in the heat of the moment...or something.
And like you said, Andy was much more extreme with his actions. Vernon at least gave Lee's group a chance to survive. I'm surprised he didn't just shoot everyone and take the boat, which he could've done with the superior numbers and firearms. And I think looking out for the people you care about counts for something, even when you're leaving people to die if it means saving others.
Comments
You wouldn't have done the same thing if you were in his position?
No way I'd leave a kid like Clem to die to a herd by being selfish.
I've said this before, but if a group of strangers led a horde to my home, got a member of my group killed, and was about to abandon me and my friends to die from the walkers they brought in the first place, I wouldn't hesitate to steal there boat. Child I barely know be damned, I'm not about to sacrifice my life and the lives of my friends for strangers who ruined our lives.
I don't think I could live with letting a kid die when I could have prevented it. Plus the group did get Vernon's group medicine which could save alot of them if they get sick, I think it was Brie's own fault that she died I mean one of the first rules of a ZA is never have your back turned to a door!
I could if it meant saving my friends. And Brie died because Ben and Kenny thought it was a brilliant idea to stage a drama while they were being attacked by walkers.
"Here Joyce, we got you some medicine!"
"Oh, thank the Lor-!" *gets eaten alive*
I think if Vernon's group ended up really needing those meds, they would've gotten desperate enough to go to Crawford eventually even if Lee never showed up. Which would've been fine since there was no one left there anyways.
Also:
"Times like these, we all gotta stick together."
"That's nice Vernon, now if you don't mind we're just gonna ride this boat off into the sunset and leave you all to die.:p"
And I wasn't blaming Kenny, just meant that it was him and Ben who were arguing.:)
I just get ticked off that the only reasons anyone ever gives for hating Vernon is HE STOLE THE BOAT (well thanks, I never wanted the damn thing in the first place:D) or HE LEFT US TO DIE (oh, just like what we were about to do to him?)
Vernon chose to conceal the fact that the horde was coming, so he DID leave us to die. Lee and Co. never even knew what was going on until the walkers were literally at the morgue's door. He knew that taking that boat meant the deaths of 5 good people and a child. And still, Boyd said that he ALWAYS wanted the boat, even BEFORE the herd showed up. Since our group was the one that had the idea, and made the trek to Savannah, and found the boat, why does Vernon get free reign to steal it from us? That actually DOES get Kenny and Ben (determinant) killed. Possibly Omid and Christa (a pregnant woman) as well.
I also find it hard to believe that the Cancer Survivors would have raided Crawford, even if they had no other choice. His reaction when the idea is brought up at the manor pretty much confirms he wouldn't. He KNOWS that they would have had him shot had he returned. Maybe they would have even tortured him to find out where his group and their supplies were. He would never go back there, no matter the reason, because it would be a death sentence for him and anyone he brought. They had no idea that everyone had died, and Vernon knows he couldn't take on Oberson and his psychopaths.
He obviously concealed that because he knew if Lee and co. knew about the herd, he'd have no chance to steal the boat from them. And so what if he wanted the boat the whole time? Like Christa says the cancer group suffered for a long time and it's no wonder they'd want to escape Savannah. He doesn't have free reign to steal the boat, but I'd say he has as much claim to the thing as everyone else. It was thanks to him they got the boat working, and it was him who lost a group member at Crawford. Plus, he had no idea Christa was pregnant, and I can't blame him for not giving a shit about Ben (a moody useless teenager from what he's seen) and Kenny (a violent unstable drunk from his POV). Too bad he never got to see how awesome Omid was, huh?:D
And I think if things got desperate enough, he'd at least leave the fallout shelter to look for supplies. He leads Lee to the mansion, leaving the sewers in the process, before he learns Crawford was overrun. If he spent enough time outside of the sewers looking for meds, I think he'd notice the absence of Crawford...people. Crawfordites?
Crawfordians? Granted, Ben was useless, and Kenny CAN be a bit of a selfish, drunken asshat, but I can't exactly forgive him. I wouldn't have stolen the boat if another group had claimed it (and Lee and Co DID claim it, by all rights) unless our lives depended on it AND they were complete scum (which Lee and Co, even Kenny and Ben, are not). Perhaps it's the fact that hardly anybody saw it coming, given that he had helped us a ton during the raid, which made his betrayal all the worse since we trusted him (I know I did. I never thought he had Clem either), but the fact that he intended to steal it the entire time is what gets me. When Boyd said that, I lost what little empathy I had left for the man. If he only did it out of desperation, that would eb another story, but he didn't.
I like Crawfordians more.:)
So you're saying you would sacrifice yourself and your entire group for the sake of strangers if your life depended on it BUT they weren't complete scum? Then you're definitely a more selfless person than I. Though Lee CAN be a scumbag to Vernon if he threatens and lies to him.
And whether he initially intended to steal the boat the whole time or not, Vernon ultimately does steal it out of desperation. If he stole the boat when there weren't thousands of walkers swarming Savannah, it would be out of selfishness, not self-preservation and desperation.
I don't endorse Vernon's actions, but I can completely understand why he did it and sympathize with him. I'm baffled that people consider his actions to be unforgivably evil, thinking that he's some kind of disgusting, irredeemable MONSTER who needs to burn in the pits of hell or whatever.
I just couldn't bring myself to do that to good people. Now, if it was owned by some CRAWFORDIANS, or maybe the BANDITS, then I'll do it. I'll go in, take their boat, and shoot anyone in my way if I had to. I mean, if they're a group of good people, who am I to decide that my group is more worthy of survival than they are?
And for the record, I won't be sacrificing myself and my group. We'd try to find another way. I may not want to screw over another group, but I won't give up on surviving altogether.
Putting myself in Vernon's shoes, I would screw Lee's group over mostly because they were responsible for getting a member of my group killed. An eye for an eye and all that. You got my friend killed, so I'll leave you to die. I'd be giving them a fighting chance in this case, at the very least. Which seems more than fair to me.
Wait, how did Lee's group get Brie killed? VERNON was the one who brought her along. Lee could have even been against it. Sure Ben's little outburst distracted Brie but he can hardly be blamed for a zombie hand coming in out of nowhere and grabbing her. Maybe she shouldn't have been standing so close to a door with zombies right outside of it. I mean think about it: if, while everyone was listening to Vernon talk, a walker grabbed Clem, would you blame Vernon? Hell no. You'd blame yourself for bringing her to such a dangerous place and then go wallow in guilt while Vernon makes off with your damn boat.
I'd sure as hell blame Vernon if he was arguing and screaming with Brie and holding up the whole group while we were in the middle of escaping Crawford. Lee can tell both Kenny and Ben to save the fighting for later, that it wasn't the time for it. And Brie was holding the door shut to keep out walkers while Kenny and Ben were pointlessly arguing. I don't blame her for dying there anymore than I blame Doug for trying to barricade a window with his body.
I guess it comes down to personal philosophy and stuff. In this case, I could justify leaving them since I would at least be giving them a chance to survive, which would be more than Brie ever got.
Anyways, I still find it ridiculous that people actually think Vernon is some kind of horrific subhuman supervillian.
Subhuman supervillain, he is not. Irredeemable monster, he is not. A good person, he ALSO is not (IMO). Since he always intended on taking it, according to the others, I can't view him as a good person or forgive him for what he did. His actions directly resulted in the deaths of Kenny and Ben (Determinant), so he'd have to do something miraculous to make up for them (if he were still alive, of course).
But it's not like it was a deliberate choice with Brie. Ben and Kenny weren't thinking "Hmm, I understand that us standing here arguing will result in Brie, who is barricading the door with her body (I actually hadn't realized this...good on her), getting her intestines ripped out but fuck it." However, Vernon DID think "Hmm, I understand that me stealing these peoples' boat would leave them stranded here while a hoard of zombies that I didn't warn them about is approaching." I mean I'm not a saint by any means but it wouldn't even OCCUR to me to not tell someone about a hoard of approaching zombies just so I can steal their boat. That was dick move. Not villainous per se, but a really, really dick move.
Ben was, however, thinking "Oh, I just let a massive crowd of walkers into the school and we should really escape right now, but instead I'm going to put everyone in danger by holding them up so I can confess to Kenny to selfishly make myself feel better about my stupidity." Not to mention Lee knew the walkers were coming as well, and standing around pointlessly arguing was putting everyone in danger. Brie especially as she was holding the door shut.
And yeah, leaving Lee's group to die was a dick move, but it was completely understandable. Had he told Lee and co. that a horde was coming, they wouldn't have been so lax about keeping the boat safe and Vernon would've had no chance of stealing it. Vernon was a dick to Lee's group, but he wasn't evil and he didn't (doesn't?) deserve to suffer a torturous death for looking out for his own group.
Yeah, I'm just not going to argue against the Ben thing. He was...particularly dense in that scene. I must point out, though, that moments before Brie died, she was actually trying to join in on that pointless argument that Ben was having with Kenny. So the list of people who thought that the conversation was worth having despite the hoard of undead clamoring outside has Brie's name on it. Of course, that just makes them ALL idiots in my opinion but that's another matter.
You know who else was a dick to Lee's group but looked out for his own group? Andy St. John. Granted, his actions were more extreme (understatement, I know) but I'm just saying that looking out for your own group doesn't count for much when you're knowingly leaving people to die.
Damn, that would've made a good tag.
Regardless, it was unforgivable to me, but I get why he did what he did.
They WERE all idiots, huh?:) Molly and Vernon (and possibly Lee) seemed to be the only ones who realized it wasn't the time for screaming matches and tallying votes. I'll let them off by saying they were all probably caught up in the heat of the moment...or something.
And like you said, Andy was much more extreme with his actions. Vernon at least gave Lee's group a chance to survive. I'm surprised he didn't just shoot everyone and take the boat, which he could've done with the superior numbers and firearms. And I think looking out for the people you care about counts for something, even when you're leaving people to die if it means saving others.
Edit: It's Definitely FAKE
Yeah I figured as much, still pretty scary to think that possibly we might see Kenny looking something akin to that,hopefully he'll be alive though.
Yeah edited it their to say its definitely fake.