I'm very... weird when it comes to Vernon. To me? He killed anyone more than the stranger could of ever dreamed. He stole the boat. Which led to the death or very low chance of survival for everyone. Lee would've saved Clementine, Kenny would of had a reason to get out of Savannah, they would've gotten out on the boat depending that -1 with Lee could have been enough, and whoever you told to look after Clem would of looked after her. Now I voted he "deserved" to die, but that's where, as I said before, I'm a bit different with the situation. Like Kenny stealing the supplies (which I agreed on, I mean you can't really blame 'em), Vernon stole our boat. Like the stranger, we all flipped out, went apeshit, and wanted Vernon dead. Vernon and his group was basically our group at the beginning. We stole something that wasn't ours. So do I hope he's dead? I sure as hell do, he got Kenny (my bro), Ben (just a kid, guys), and possibly Christa and Omid (I started to actually like them) ALL killed... but did he deserve it? Well I think I'd be a bit a dick thing to say that Vernon should die for stealing our boat, but we should be fine for stealing the supplies.
DID Vernon really care about his group? The way Boyd (man, the way I keep bringing him up makes it seem like he's my mole in Vernon's group) REALLY seems to not like Vernon in 400 Days, and blames him and the boat for the reason that their group fell apart. His tone indicates that he REALLY doesn't like Vernon for some reason, which could lead one to believe that Vernon didn't REALLY care about them. At least once he got his hands on the (OUR) boat.
DID Vernon really care about his group? The way Boyd (man, the way I keep bringing him up makes it seem like he's my mole in Vernon's group) REALLY seems to not like Vernon in 400 Days, and blames him and the boat for the reason that their group fell apart. His tone indicates that he REALLY doesn't like Vernon for some reason, which could lead one to believe that Vernon didn't REALLY care about them. At least once he got his hands on the (OUR) boat.
He only blames Vernon if they stole the boat from non-Scumbag Lee, otherwise he seems perfectly fine with having stolen it. From this, I think Boyd only started to dislike Vernon after he convinced them to steal the boat from nice, rational Lee.
And I think Vernon cared about his group. He's a thief and kind of a dick, not a sociopath. Something that really made me respect Vernon is if Lee acts like a total douche, threatening his group and lying out of his ass, Vernon still agrees to help Lee get back to the mansion because he asks Lee if anyone in his group might need a doctor. Lee indeterminately tells him about Omid, and Vernon agrees to help Lee to his group's utter shock. A man just burst into their home, threatened them at gunpoint, and Vernon still agrees to help him on the CHANCE of being able to help someone with his medical knowledge. Another complete stranger, mind you.
He only blames Vernon if they stole the boat from non-Scumbag Lee, otherwise he seems perfectly fine with having stolen it. From this, I think Boyd only started to dislike Vernon after he convinced them to steal the boat from nice, rational Lee.
And I think Vernon cared about his group. He's a thief and kind of a dick, not a sociopath. Something that really made me respect Vernon is if Lee acts like a total douche, threatening his group and lying out of his ass, Vernon still agrees to help Lee get back to the mansion because he asks Lee if anyone in his group might need a doctor. Lee indeterminately tells him about Omid, and Vernon agrees to help Lee to his group's utter shock. A man just burst into their home, threatened them at gunpoint, and Vernon still agrees to help him on the CHANCE of being able to help someone with his medical knowledge. Another complete stranger, mind you.
I guess I need to do a REAL Scumbag Lee playthrough. I can never bring myself to be a dick to people who don't deserve it. He's not EVIL, he's a dick. I dunno, the way Boyd (again, my mole) spoke in my game, it seemed like Vernon became an utterly selfish prick after they got the boat. And he didn't seem all that sorry that Vernon was gone, either. Vernon might have been a cool guy before he discovered the boat (helping Lee and Omid I can't argue with. Especially if it's Scumbag Lee) but the signs seem to point to him coveting the boat as soon as it was discovered. Him intending to take it regardless sours my opinion of him, to say the least, even given what he did for Lee and Co.
I guess I need to do a REAL Scumbag Lee playthrough. I can never bring myself to be a dick to people who don't deserve it. He's not EVIL, he's a dick. I dunno, the way Boyd (again, my mole) spoke in my game, it seemed like Vernon became an utterly selfish prick after they got the boat. And he didn't seem all that sorry that Vernon was gone, either. Vernon might have been a cool guy before he discovered the boat (helping Lee and Omid I can't argue with. Especially if it's Scumbag Lee) but the signs seem to point to him coveting the boat as soon as it was discovered. Him intending to take it regardless sours my opinion of him, to say the least, even given what he did for Lee and Co.
That seems a bit harsh. Like Christa and Lee can point out, Vernon's been living through hell for 3 months while Lee and co. have been having it relatively easy at the motor inn. No bandits thanks to the St. Johns and plenty of food thanks to Mark. Vernon and his group lost all their friends and family and lived holed up in a morgue, under constant threat from being found and killed by Crawford. I don't blame him for wanting an easy way out of Savannah (the morgue was right by the coast after all, and any other means of leaving Savannah would mean going through a walker infested city.).
As for Boyd, I wasn't a big fan of him. He speaks out against Vernon's actions, yeah, but he was just as responsible for the theft as Vernon was. He came off as the kind of guy who, comfortably in a position where he didn't have to make the hard decisions, would act all high and mighty and bash other people's morality. It didn't help that when he tells Shel about Stef, he conveniently forgets to mention that she was stealing all their crap, and makes Roman out to be some sort of monster who's unjustly treating Stef "like some sort of animal" for no good reason.
Well at least he said it was the wrong thing to do, and in episode told Vernon to help Lee if you don't ask. I think he was just a kind man who was in the wrong group.
Well at least he said it was the wrong thing to do, and in episode told Vernon to help Lee if you don't ask. I think he was just a kind man who was in the wrong group.
Seems like Boyd was the kind of guy who told others off for being bad people, while he himself didn't actually do anything either. To me, anyways.
Still he was nicer then the other members you have to give him that.
I don't think that counts for much when his "niceness" consisted of complaining about other people's choices even though he wasn't a saint by any stretch of the word either.
That seems a bit harsh. Like Christa and Lee can point out, Vernon's been living through hell for 3 months while Lee and co. have been having it relatively easy at the motor inn. No bandits thanks to the St. Johns and plenty of food thanks to Mark. Vernon and his group lost all their friends and family and lived holed up in a morgue, under constant threat from being found and killed by Crawford. I don't blame him for wanting an easy way out of Savannah (the morgue was right by the coast after all, and any other means of leaving Savannah would mean going through a walker infested city.).
As for Boyd, I wasn't a big fan of him. He speaks out against Vernon's actions, yeah, but he was just as responsible for the theft as Vernon was. He came off as the kind of guy who, comfortably in a position where he didn't have to make the hard decisions, would act all high and mighty and bash other people's morality. It didn't help that when he tells Shel about Stef, he conveniently forgets to mention that she was stealing all their crap, and makes Roman out to be some sort of monster who's unjustly treating Stef "like some sort of animal" for no good reason.
Lee's group had it worse than Vernon's, IMO. Vernon and his crew had to deal with Crawford, which WAS terrible, and I'm not saying that it wasn't, but Lee's group went through more crap overall. Lee himself was forced to kill his own brother in Macon, right after finding out his parents had been killed (and were possibly walkers themselves). While we don't know what happened to Vernon and his people aside from Crawford, Lee's group had a lot of infighting that made everything harder for everyone. They even began killing, or attempting to kill, each other. Something else Vernon didn't have to deal with: the St. Johns. Lee and Co. were captured by cannibals who had fed them the legs of one of their friends, then captured them and prepared to kill and eat them all. Then came the meat locker, and having to fight their way out of that slaughterhouse. After (barely) escaping the cannibals, they come under siege for a few weeks by a pack of drug addicted murderers and rapists while their supplies begin to run low, and are betrayed from within. After they (again, barely) escape the motel, they begin dropping like flies all the way to Savannah. Lilly kills a member of the group in cold blood, and either is abandoned or departs them with their RV. Then Katjaa takes her own life, and Lee and Kenny are forced to shoot (or leave) Duck. By the time they actually find the boat, the original group is practically non-existent. Christa had almost no idea what Lee and the others had been through prior to their meeting ("Who's Larry?"). Vernon, meanwhile, had plenty of supplies and a secure place to hide. If anything, HE had it easy.
As for Boyd, I disagree. He seemed like a moral person to me, and simply went along with Vernon and the others because he couldn't survive alone. He likely felt it didn't matter that Stephanie had stolen (which I disagree with), and just felt that since she was an actual group member that they couldn't do that to her. (I shot Steph, by the way. She was out of the group the moment she stole from us).
Lee's group had it worse than Vernon's, IMO. Vernon and his crew had to deal with Crawford, which WAS terrible, and I'm not saying that it wasn't, but Lee's group went through more crap overall. Lee himself was forced to kill his own brother in Macon, right after finding out his parents had been killed (and were possibly walkers themselves). While we don't know what happened to Vernon and his people aside from Crawford, Lee's group had a lot of infighting that made everything harder for everyone. They even began killing, or attempting to kill, each other. Something else Vernon didn't have to deal with: the St. Johns. Lee and Co. were captured by cannibals who had fed them the legs of one of their friends, then captured them and prepared to kill and eat them all. Then came the meat locker, and having to fight their way out of that slaughterhouse. After (barely) escaping the cannibals, they come under siege for a few weeks by a pack of drug addicted murderers and rapists while their supplies begin to run low, and are betrayed from within. After they (again, barely) escape the motel, they begin dropping like flies all the way to Savannah. Lilly kills a member of the group in cold blood, and either is abandoned or departs them with their RV. Then Katjaa takes her own life, and Lee and Kenny are forced to shoot (or leave) Duck. By the time they actually find the boat, the original group is practically non-existent. Christa had almost no idea what Lee and the others had been through prior to their meeting ("Who's Larry?"). Vernon, meanwhile, had plenty of supplies and a secure place to hide. If anything, HE had it easy.
As for Boyd, I disagree. He seemed like a moral person to me, and simply went along with Vernon and the others because he couldn't survive alone. He likely felt it didn't matter that Stephanie had stolen (which I disagree with), and just felt that since she was an actual group member that they couldn't do that to her. (I shot Steph, by the way. She was out of the group the moment she stole from us).
Difference was Lee and co. had it easy for 3 WHOLE MONTHS with plenty of food and no threat from bandits. That whole time, Vernon and his group slowly lost all their friends and family to walkers and eventually to Crawford. Then they had to live in a hole for who knows how long with the constant stress from worrying about being found. Lee's group didn't have stress over a group of homicidal maniacs attacking them until after the first 3 months.
And as for Boyd, I just didn't like how harsh he was on the others for stealing the boat, saying it was wrong and it was all Vernon's fault the group fell apart. Pfft, like he wasn't the one who held Lee's group at gunpoint. And as you yourself said, if someone really didn't want to screw over another group, they could've found other ways to survive with giving up themselves.
And as for Boyd, I just didn't like how harsh he was on the others for stealing the boat, saying it was wrong and it was all Vernon's fault the group fell apart. Pfft, like he wasn't the one who held Lee's group at gunpoint. And as you yourself said, if someone really didn't want to screw over another group, they could've found other ways to survive with giving up themselves.
"He made us beat up that guy with the mustache and steal his boat. WE did that. I've regretted it ever since."
I don't know what version of Boyd's speech you heard but in the version I heard, he emphasized the "we" part. So to me it didn't sound like he was shirking responsibility. What it did sound like was that Vernon's approach to getting the group to steal the boat was more authoritative than I had thought. Although I doubt Clive needed much convincing. And afterall, it was certainly Vernon's plan to steal the boat so saying that "Vernon and the boat are the reason the group fell apart" seems like a pretty reasonable thing to say.
"He made us beat up that guy with the mustache and steal his boat. WE did that. I've regretted it ever since."
I don't know what version of Boyd's speech you heard but in the version I heard, he emphasized the "we" part. So to me it didn't sound like he was shirking responsibility. What it did sound like was that Vernon's approach to getting the group to steal the boat was more authoritative than I had thought. Although I doubt Clive needed much convincing. And afterall, it was certainly Vernon's plan to steal the boat so saying that "Vernon and the boat are the reason the group fell apart" seems like a pretty reasonable thing to say.
You're right,Boyd does seem to take responsibility for taking the boat from Kenny. But it doesn't seem like it in the Christa/Omid or Ben version. "I was right there with you when we stole the boat from that woman and her boyfriend. That was wrong", he reprimands Joyce. Or "We stole the boat from that teenage kid at gunpoint. THAT'S when our group fell apart", with no mention of personal regret for his actions. And I'm just being hard on Boyd because it doesn't sit right with me that he places the majority of the blame on Vernon's "selfishness" (he probably saved your life by stealing the boat you ungrateful jerk) even though he STILL went along with the theft. Like Rock114 said, if someone REALLY believed they shouldn't screw strangers over for their benefit, they could find ways to survive without stealing the boat and not giving up at the same time.
You're right,Boyd does seem to take responsibility for taking the boat from Kenny. But it doesn't seem like it in the Christa/Omid or Ben version. "I was right there with you when we stole the boat from that woman and her boyfriend. That was wrong", he reprimands Joyce. Or "We stole the boat from that teenage kid at gunpoint. THAT'S when our group fell apart", with no mention of personal regret for his actions. And I'm just being hard on Boyd because it doesn't sit right with me that he places the majority of the blame on Vernon's "selfishness" (he probably saved your life by stealing the boat you ungrateful jerk) even though he STILL went along with the theft. Like Rock114 said, if someone REALLY believed they shouldn't screw strangers over for their benefit, they could find ways to survive without stealing the boat and not giving up at the same time.
"I was right there with you when we stole the boat from that woman and her boyfriend. That was wrong." doesn't seem to me to be reprimand of Joyce, but rather the act itself, which he fully admits he was a part of. I don't know, it seems pretty close to the Kenny version in terms of expressing personal regret over his actions.
And the fact that he went along with it even though he was morally against it is his whole point. The last time he went along with something that he had a moral problem with, it ended up tearing his group apart and leaving him with nothing but guilt. He recognizes that following Vernon was a mistake and doesn't want to make the same mistake again. That's why he's taking such a firm stand right now. He also never referred to Vernon as being selfish. All he said was that Vernon was looking to steal the boat the whole time. The fact that Vernon had the group's interest at heart doesn't make the act itself any less wrong. That's what he's telling Roman.
"I was right there with you when we stole the boat from that woman and her boyfriend. That was wrong." doesn't seem to me to be reprimand of Joyce, but rather the act itself, which he fully admits he was a part of. I don't know, it seems pretty close to the Kenny version in terms of expressing personal regret over his actions.
And the fact that he went along with it even though he was morally against it is his whole point. The last time he went along with something that he had a moral problem with, it ended up tearing his group apart and leaving him with nothing but guilt. He recognizes that following Vernon was a mistake and doesn't want to make the same mistake again. That's why he's taking such a firm stand right now. He also never referred to Vernon as being selfish. All he said was that Vernon was looking to steal the boat the whole time. The fact that Vernon had the group's interest at heart doesn't make the act itself any less wrong. That's what he's telling Roman.
So he doesn't call Vernon selfish? Sorry I haven't seen that scene in a while. Is it kinda sad that I even remembered what Boyd said about Christa/Omid and Ben?:D
Anyways, when he says "that was wrong" he directs the comment to Joyce, and in a scolding tone. At least that was what it sounded like to me. And nice analysis on Boyd, everything you said about him wanting to make amends for his past "mistake" makes sense and I was a bit hard on him.
He still ticks me off though because he still comes off as some sort of righteous crusader who won't hesitate to abandon or spread slander about people who don't share his superior morals. He split off from Vernon and blames him for what happened, and tries to make Roman out to be some sort of monster to Shel, even though both of them were doing what was best for him and his group. Seems ungrateful to me. You can feel bad about what you did all you want Boyd, but you should appreciate that you'd be dead if your group didn't make those decisions. Especially since his morals do get him killed if you spare the thief.
He still ticks me off though because he still comes off as some sort of righteous crusader who won't hesitate to abandon or spread slander about people who don't share his superior morals. He split off from Vernon and blames him for what happened, and tries to make Roman out to be some sort of monster to Shel, even though both of them were doing what was best for him and his group. Seems ungrateful to me. You can feel bad about what you did all you want Boyd, but you should appreciate that you'd be dead if your group didn't make those decisions. Especially since his morals do get him killed if you spare the thief.
That line reminds me a lot of what Kenny says to Lee if you didn't side with him in the meat locker. Not saying that's a bad thing. I somewhat agree. But it's worth considering that maybe Boyd and the not-wanting-to-smash-Larry's-head-in version of Lee might not view the situation as being so cut-and-dried.
But yeah, Boyd definitely does have a preachy air to him. I don't think he's intentionally slandering anyone though. He's just pointing out the aspect of the situation that's most relevant to him. For him, it was Stephanie being locked up like an animal; for Joyce, it was the fact that they caught her stealing. Neither mentioned both aspects. Boyd is super freaked-out and panicky at this point, which makes sense considering that he did just see his group execute a guy he was fiercely trying to defend. The fact that they're going to do it again and to "one of their own" this time is insane to him, regardless of what the person did. I mean I ended up disagreeing with him, but I get his mindset.
I agreed with him, I thought we should spare that guy, but it kind of goes downhill because of it, he is a nice guy with a honest heart, that is what I took away, maybe I was wrong.
That line reminds me a lot of what Kenny says to Lee if you didn't side with him in the meat locker. Not saying that's a bad thing. I somewhat agree. But it's worth considering that maybe Boyd and the not-wanting-to-smash-Larry's-head-in version of Lee might not view the situation as being so cut-and-dried.
But yeah, Boyd definitely does have a preachy air to him. I don't think he's intentionally slandering anyone though. He's just pointing out the aspect of the situation that's most relevant to him. For him, it was Stephanie being locked up like an animal; for Joyce, it was the fact that they caught her stealing. Neither mentioned both aspects. Boyd is super freaked-out and panicky at this point, which makes sense considering that he did just see his group execute a guy he was fiercely trying to defend. The fact that they're going to do it again and to "one of their own" this time is insane to him, regardless of what the person did. I mean I ended up disagreeing with him, but I get his mindset.
Looking at it like that, I think I can give Lee more slack than Boyd for “not appreciating that he’d be dead if his group (Kenny in this situation) hadn’t made those decisions (killing Larry)”. Lee knew Larry for months, and determinately started to make amends with him. Not to mention he could’ve been friends with Lilly by that point and Clem was there. I can forgive Lee for being pissed off at Kenny for doing what he thought was best. In Boyd’s situation, his group was faced with leaving strangers to possibly die by stealing the boat, and killing a complete stranger who stole from them. They were in just as much danger as Lee in the meat locker, but Lee had more justification for not appreciating Kenny’s hard decision. Which I didn’t completely agree with either.
And the difference is that Joyce tells Shel the relevant info while Boyd doesn’t. I can see why Joyce would neglect to mention the locked up part, seeing as that’s a reasonable measure to keep an eye on a known thief and it didn’t seem necessary to share that info with Shel, but there was no good reason to neglect mentioning Stephanie stole all their supplies since that was why she was locked up, panicking or not. Boyd makes it sound like Stef was imprisoned like an animal for no reason at all. Which is why the only reason I can see Boyd had for not telling Shel about the thievery is that he wanted to make Roman out to be some sort of monster.
Anyways, in an attempt to bring this thread back on track, what did you vote? Does Vernon deserve death or not?
I couldn't vote. I don't know. I would've happily dispatched Vernon had I been given the chance. At the very least I would have loved to wipe that permanent grimace off his face. But after the events related by Boyd, I'm inclined to call him a sad old bastard and let bygones be bygones. Still hoping, however, if he's alive, that he's eaten up with epic guilty feels.
He's probably on his own On Golden Pond now with a Joyce replacement.
Well, I'm not sure how he died or even if he really did so it's kinda weird to say whether or not it was poetic justice.
But just for fun, let's try to imagine that he drowned because the boat that he worked so hard to steal from Lee's group was too heavily weighed down by the fuckton of supplies that he apparently hauled with him from that hidden bunker/morgue that he thought was so unsafe. Would that be poetic justice...?
...
...
*Splash* *gurglegurgle*
...
...
Yep. :cool:
But I was more curious with whether you think he deserves to die rather than if it was poetic justice. I'm kinda surprised how many people just absolutely fucking hate Vernon. Seriously, it looks like more people want to kill Vernon than Andy St. John.
Well, I'm pretty sure everybody wanted to kill Andy. They just didn't want to do it in front of all their people, especially Clem. If most people were left standing in a room with only Andy and Vernon and holding a gun with a single bullet in it, they would probably shoot Andy rather than Vernon. But if they were anything like me, after Andy was taken care of, they would then proceed beat the ever living shit out of Vernon for being a selfish dick. Did he deserve to die? Eh. The only people I think really deserved to die were the bandits, Crawford, and the St. Johns. [Oh, and Nate too.] But this being the Walking Dead, where everybody's probably gonna go sooner or later, I'd vote to move Vernon up the list before I would anyone else. (I rounded that up to "Yes" in the poll itself)
I killed Danny,I killed Andy and given half a chance I would kill Vernon and the rest of his group including Boyd,but since Boyd seemed remorseful I'd give him a quick clean bullet to the head death opposed to the others whom I would slowly kill and leave them to turn.
Tarnation (hey, that's an actual word!), I had a post about Boyd all typed out and ready for reading, but then I closed the page without actually pressing the "Post" button. As I'm too depressed to retype the entire, award winning novel that it was, I'll just say that I was going to say pretty much what DomeWing did (although not as well).
As for Vernon, if he dies, I won't feel sad. Especially if it was boat related. I can't say I'd go out of my way to kill him if he is alive and we meet again. Of course, if he pulls ANOTHER stunt like that on the off chance we do meet him again, I will be delivering justice at muzzle velocity. On a side note, DAYUM Crixus, you scary. Remind me not to steal from you.
Tarnation (hey, that's an actual word!), I had a post about Boyd all typed out and ready for reading, but then I closed the page without actually pressing the "Post" button. As I'm too depressed to retype the entire, award winning novel that it was, I'll just say that I was going to say pretty much what DomeWing did (although not as well).
As for Vernon, if he dies, I won't feel sad. Especially if it was boat related. I can't say I'd go out of my way to kill him if he is alive and we meet again. Of course, if he pulls ANOTHER stunt like that on the off chance we do meet him again, I will be delivering justice at muzzle velocity. On a side note, DAYUM Crixus, you scary. Remind me not to steal from you.
Comments
In conclusion, fuck Vernon.
andfuckwallstreet
He only blames Vernon if they stole the boat from non-Scumbag Lee, otherwise he seems perfectly fine with having stolen it. From this, I think Boyd only started to dislike Vernon after he convinced them to steal the boat from nice, rational Lee.
And I think Vernon cared about his group. He's a thief and kind of a dick, not a sociopath. Something that really made me respect Vernon is if Lee acts like a total douche, threatening his group and lying out of his ass, Vernon still agrees to help Lee get back to the mansion because he asks Lee if anyone in his group might need a doctor. Lee indeterminately tells him about Omid, and Vernon agrees to help Lee to his group's utter shock. A man just burst into their home, threatened them at gunpoint, and Vernon still agrees to help him on the CHANCE of being able to help someone with his medical knowledge. Another complete stranger, mind you.
Nope. I wouldn't even have been in Savannah in the first place lol.
If it weren't for Clem, neither would I.:D
Kenny and his damn boat fetish.
I guess I need to do a REAL Scumbag Lee playthrough. I can never bring myself to be a dick to people who don't deserve it. He's not EVIL, he's a dick. I dunno, the way Boyd (again, my mole) spoke in my game, it seemed like Vernon became an utterly selfish prick after they got the boat. And he didn't seem all that sorry that Vernon was gone, either. Vernon might have been a cool guy before he discovered the boat (helping Lee and Omid I can't argue with. Especially if it's Scumbag Lee) but the signs seem to point to him coveting the boat as soon as it was discovered. Him intending to take it regardless sours my opinion of him, to say the least, even given what he did for Lee and Co.
That seems a bit harsh. Like Christa and Lee can point out, Vernon's been living through hell for 3 months while Lee and co. have been having it relatively easy at the motor inn. No bandits thanks to the St. Johns and plenty of food thanks to Mark. Vernon and his group lost all their friends and family and lived holed up in a morgue, under constant threat from being found and killed by Crawford. I don't blame him for wanting an easy way out of Savannah (the morgue was right by the coast after all, and any other means of leaving Savannah would mean going through a walker infested city.).
As for Boyd, I wasn't a big fan of him. He speaks out against Vernon's actions, yeah, but he was just as responsible for the theft as Vernon was. He came off as the kind of guy who, comfortably in a position where he didn't have to make the hard decisions, would act all high and mighty and bash other people's morality. It didn't help that when he tells Shel about Stef, he conveniently forgets to mention that she was stealing all their crap, and makes Roman out to be some sort of monster who's unjustly treating Stef "like some sort of animal" for no good reason.
Seems like Boyd was the kind of guy who told others off for being bad people, while he himself didn't actually do anything either. To me, anyways.
I don't think that counts for much when his "niceness" consisted of complaining about other people's choices even though he wasn't a saint by any stretch of the word either.
Lee's group had it worse than Vernon's, IMO. Vernon and his crew had to deal with Crawford, which WAS terrible, and I'm not saying that it wasn't, but Lee's group went through more crap overall. Lee himself was forced to kill his own brother in Macon, right after finding out his parents had been killed (and were possibly walkers themselves). While we don't know what happened to Vernon and his people aside from Crawford, Lee's group had a lot of infighting that made everything harder for everyone. They even began killing, or attempting to kill, each other. Something else Vernon didn't have to deal with: the St. Johns. Lee and Co. were captured by cannibals who had fed them the legs of one of their friends, then captured them and prepared to kill and eat them all. Then came the meat locker, and having to fight their way out of that slaughterhouse. After (barely) escaping the cannibals, they come under siege for a few weeks by a pack of drug addicted murderers and rapists while their supplies begin to run low, and are betrayed from within. After they (again, barely) escape the motel, they begin dropping like flies all the way to Savannah. Lilly kills a member of the group in cold blood, and either is abandoned or departs them with their RV. Then Katjaa takes her own life, and Lee and Kenny are forced to shoot (or leave) Duck. By the time they actually find the boat, the original group is practically non-existent. Christa had almost no idea what Lee and the others had been through prior to their meeting ("Who's Larry?"). Vernon, meanwhile, had plenty of supplies and a secure place to hide. If anything, HE had it easy.
As for Boyd, I disagree. He seemed like a moral person to me, and simply went along with Vernon and the others because he couldn't survive alone. He likely felt it didn't matter that Stephanie had stolen (which I disagree with), and just felt that since she was an actual group member that they couldn't do that to her. (I shot Steph, by the way. She was out of the group the moment she stole from us).
Difference was Lee and co. had it easy for 3 WHOLE MONTHS with plenty of food and no threat from bandits. That whole time, Vernon and his group slowly lost all their friends and family to walkers and eventually to Crawford. Then they had to live in a hole for who knows how long with the constant stress from worrying about being found. Lee's group didn't have stress over a group of homicidal maniacs attacking them until after the first 3 months.
And as for Boyd, I just didn't like how harsh he was on the others for stealing the boat, saying it was wrong and it was all Vernon's fault the group fell apart. Pfft, like he wasn't the one who held Lee's group at gunpoint. And as you yourself said, if someone really didn't want to screw over another group, they could've found other ways to survive with giving up themselves.
"He made us beat up that guy with the mustache and steal his boat. WE did that. I've regretted it ever since."
I don't know what version of Boyd's speech you heard but in the version I heard, he emphasized the "we" part. So to me it didn't sound like he was shirking responsibility. What it did sound like was that Vernon's approach to getting the group to steal the boat was more authoritative than I had thought. Although I doubt Clive needed much convincing. And afterall, it was certainly Vernon's plan to steal the boat so saying that "Vernon and the boat are the reason the group fell apart" seems like a pretty reasonable thing to say.
You're right,Boyd does seem to take responsibility for taking the boat from Kenny. But it doesn't seem like it in the Christa/Omid or Ben version. "I was right there with you when we stole the boat from that woman and her boyfriend. That was wrong", he reprimands Joyce. Or "We stole the boat from that teenage kid at gunpoint. THAT'S when our group fell apart", with no mention of personal regret for his actions. And I'm just being hard on Boyd because it doesn't sit right with me that he places the majority of the blame on Vernon's "selfishness" (he probably saved your life by stealing the boat you ungrateful jerk) even though he STILL went along with the theft. Like Rock114 said, if someone REALLY believed they shouldn't screw strangers over for their benefit, they could find ways to survive without stealing the boat and not giving up at the same time.
"I was right there with you when we stole the boat from that woman and her boyfriend. That was wrong." doesn't seem to me to be reprimand of Joyce, but rather the act itself, which he fully admits he was a part of. I don't know, it seems pretty close to the Kenny version in terms of expressing personal regret over his actions.
And the fact that he went along with it even though he was morally against it is his whole point. The last time he went along with something that he had a moral problem with, it ended up tearing his group apart and leaving him with nothing but guilt. He recognizes that following Vernon was a mistake and doesn't want to make the same mistake again. That's why he's taking such a firm stand right now. He also never referred to Vernon as being selfish. All he said was that Vernon was looking to steal the boat the whole time. The fact that Vernon had the group's interest at heart doesn't make the act itself any less wrong. That's what he's telling Roman.
When the afro is one of the reasons everything started going in a downwards spiral for you and your group? XD
So he doesn't call Vernon selfish? Sorry I haven't seen that scene in a while. Is it kinda sad that I even remembered what Boyd said about Christa/Omid and Ben?:D
Anyways, when he says "that was wrong" he directs the comment to Joyce, and in a scolding tone. At least that was what it sounded like to me. And nice analysis on Boyd, everything you said about him wanting to make amends for his past "mistake" makes sense and I was a bit hard on him.
He still ticks me off though because he still comes off as some sort of righteous crusader who won't hesitate to abandon or spread slander about people who don't share his superior morals. He split off from Vernon and blames him for what happened, and tries to make Roman out to be some sort of monster to Shel, even though both of them were doing what was best for him and his group. Seems ungrateful to me. You can feel bad about what you did all you want Boyd, but you should appreciate that you'd be dead if your group didn't make those decisions. Especially since his morals do get him killed if you spare the thief.
That line reminds me a lot of what Kenny says to Lee if you didn't side with him in the meat locker. Not saying that's a bad thing. I somewhat agree. But it's worth considering that maybe Boyd and the not-wanting-to-smash-Larry's-head-in version of Lee might not view the situation as being so cut-and-dried.
But yeah, Boyd definitely does have a preachy air to him. I don't think he's intentionally slandering anyone though. He's just pointing out the aspect of the situation that's most relevant to him. For him, it was Stephanie being locked up like an animal; for Joyce, it was the fact that they caught her stealing. Neither mentioned both aspects. Boyd is super freaked-out and panicky at this point, which makes sense considering that he did just see his group execute a guy he was fiercely trying to defend. The fact that they're going to do it again and to "one of their own" this time is insane to him, regardless of what the person did. I mean I ended up disagreeing with him, but I get his mindset.
Looking at it like that, I think I can give Lee more slack than Boyd for “not appreciating that he’d be dead if his group (Kenny in this situation) hadn’t made those decisions (killing Larry)”. Lee knew Larry for months, and determinately started to make amends with him. Not to mention he could’ve been friends with Lilly by that point and Clem was there. I can forgive Lee for being pissed off at Kenny for doing what he thought was best. In Boyd’s situation, his group was faced with leaving strangers to possibly die by stealing the boat, and killing a complete stranger who stole from them. They were in just as much danger as Lee in the meat locker, but Lee had more justification for not appreciating Kenny’s hard decision. Which I didn’t completely agree with either.
And the difference is that Joyce tells Shel the relevant info while Boyd doesn’t. I can see why Joyce would neglect to mention the locked up part, seeing as that’s a reasonable measure to keep an eye on a known thief and it didn’t seem necessary to share that info with Shel, but there was no good reason to neglect mentioning Stephanie stole all their supplies since that was why she was locked up, panicking or not. Boyd makes it sound like Stef was imprisoned like an animal for no reason at all. Which is why the only reason I can see Boyd had for not telling Shel about the thievery is that he wanted to make Roman out to be some sort of monster.
Anyways, in an attempt to bring this thread back on track, what did you vote? Does Vernon deserve death or not?
He's probably on his own On Golden Pond now with a Joyce replacement.
But just for fun, let's try to imagine that he drowned because the boat that he worked so hard to steal from Lee's group was too heavily weighed down by the fuckton of supplies that he apparently hauled with him from that hidden bunker/morgue that he thought was so unsafe. Would that be poetic justice...?
...
...
*Splash* *gurglegurgle*
...
...
Yep. :cool:
But I was more curious with whether you think he deserves to die rather than if it was poetic justice. I'm kinda surprised how many people just absolutely fucking hate Vernon. Seriously, it looks like more people want to kill Vernon than Andy St. John.
As for Vernon, if he dies, I won't feel sad. Especially if it was boat related. I can't say I'd go out of my way to kill him if he is alive and we meet again. Of course, if he pulls ANOTHER stunt like that on the off chance we do meet him again, I will be delivering justice at muzzle velocity. On a side note, DAYUM Crixus, you scary. Remind me not to steal from you.
God have mercy on you, for Crixus shall not. I now advise any innocents to evacuate the immediate area, or risk being between Crixus and his target...
Hey Cany.....
To Quote Brie "Sorry but thats Just how I feel".
Yeah I could never bring myself to harvest a little girl