I still stand by Savannah is what doomed them to die and if Kenny hadn't been so obsessed with his boats they would have a much better chance of long term survival...
I actually saved and defended Ben at every turn, just because I thought it wasn't right, but, looking at it from an intellectual stand-point, I think I kind of made the wrong choice. I just figured he'd redeem himself, plus he's about the same age as me so I couldn't help but empathise.
You can't blame them for everything but the st Johns led to
-Meeting Ben (i like him but he caused a few problems; alright a lot of problems)
-The Death of Larry and Mark
- Lilly going crazy (from Larry dying)
- The bandits going for the motel
The only good thing from the St Johns was recovering Clems hat
You can't blame them for everything but the st Johns led to
-Meeting Ben (i like him but he caused a few problems; alright a lot of problems)
-The Death of Larry and Mark
- Lilly going crazy (from Larry dying)
- The bandits going for the motel
The only good thing from the St Johns was recovering Clems hat
LEAVE BEN ALONE !!!
Ben is a good guy, he did what he did with the best intentions. He just had too much bad luck, that's all. He didn't betray the group, he stole the supply because he wanted to save his friends whom he thought the bandits had. Of course his best friends was more important than people he'd just met a few days ago. Then he kept doing it because he didn't want the bandits to attack the group. After that he messed many things up because it was pure bad luck for him but he did tried his best. As Lee said, he's just a teenager after all.
I like Ben a lot because i see myself in him. As a shy teenager in an apocalypse with no friends, no family, among a bunch of strangers, i would have done the same, if not worse.
I think it's Lilly, don't get me wrong I love Lilly as a character, but during the RV scene she was being really unreasonable. That's where everything started to go downhill.
I prefer to look internally. The St.Johns, Vernon and the stranger were certainly the roots of a lot of problems, but the group could have handled it better.
Who do i blame?
1) Lilly - Things go downhill really fast after she murders Carley, she took two of the groups most competent members out of the equation and it was a big hit. They lost probably the two best shooters, there was nobody really there to challenge a grieving Kenny and the loss in numbers also meant having to give jobs to Ben, who everyone knew wasn't ready for any serious responsibility.
2) Ben - Doesn't need a lot of explanation. Mistakes, mistakes, cowardice and more mistakes.
3) Kenny - I don't blame him for Larry (in fact i agree with him), but the Savannah plan was very poorly thought out. Even though they did eventually get a boat there was never going to be enough space.
Depends on what you define as "the group" i guess in a series with a constantly changing cast like this one. Thinking about it in universe then the group for the vast majority of the time were those living at the motor inn (There's less than a week before Lee dies after that, three and a half months before) and the group, at least in that form was shattered before we ever met Vernon. He and the stranger combined to finish off the remnants.
The Stranger. Ben, too, but not as much. The Stranger made the group get side-tracked looking for him and he kidnaped Clementine, which caused the death of Ben, Kenny (maybe), and possibly Christa and Omid. He also split the whole group apart. Even though Vernon stole the boat and screwed us over, I think Jenny and the group would have found a way out of Savannah if it wasn't for that damn Walkie-Talkie
I think the stranger is the least responsible for the group’s downfall. What did he do exactly? He spoke to Clem on the radio. It's only by chance that Lee and Kenny heard him, so he wasn't even considered an antagonist to them beforehand. He was stalking them but he only really came on the scene in episode 4 the day before Lee's death. How much of the group’s downfall can he really be blamed for?
At the end of the day he didn't go to the Manor and take Clementine against her will. She went to the Marsh house hotel where he was waiting. Clementine only went to the hotel because Lee told her there wouldn't be enough time to look for her parents. The stranger was basically an observer in the background watching the group breakdown, getting updates from Clem for his amusement. He didn't cause anyone’s death, he didn't shoot anyone. Lee blamed him for Kenny's death but like I said they were looking for Clementine because she ran off not because he took her.
Even if the guy on the radio never spoke with Clem she would have ran off to look for her parents at their last known location anyway because she was upset that Lee wouldn't help her look for them, especially if he promised to on the train. Lee getting bitten isn't the kidnapper's fault, he didn't plan for that. Lee lost concentration because he was worried about Clementine being missing which could just have easily happened if the guy on the radio wasn't in the game. The guy wanted revenge but didn't get to exact his revenge since the group broke apart by themselves without his intervention.
I say all this to say that the group broke down long before the stranger had any power to be an antagonist. If Ben had been honest with the group about his friends being held by the bandits, Lee and the group would have either helped him by fighting the bandits or the group would have decided to leave before the bandits returned to attack the motor inn. In that case Duck wouldn't have been bitten, Kat wouldn't have committed suicide, Lilly wouldn't have had any problem with Ben since he wouldn't have been stealing supplies and Carly wouldn't have been falsely accused and wouldn't have been shot.
Most of the groups problems were caused by Ben and the rest were caused by Kenny. Yeah I said it! Kenny wanted to stay on the farm even after suspecting foul play when Lilly wanted to leave and return to the motor inn. The meat locker has been covered so many times, so I won't go into that, but I will mention the station wagon since few do. Kenny and his wife were the only (ncp) members of the group that wanted to take the supplies. Everyone else made reasons why they shouldn't take them, even Lilly who said that they would look like monsters to the returning owners of the supplies. Kenny said their taking the stuff regardless of Lee and Clem's opinion, so even if you, as the player side with Clem and leave the stuff, Kenny makes the group take the goods any way, giving birth to our new antagonist.(So there is no further confusion due to language barriers, I am referring to the guy on the radio when I say antagonist)
You can't blame them for everything but the st Johns led to
-Meeting Ben (i like him but he caused a few problems; alright a lot of problems)
-The Death of Larry and Mark
- Lilly going crazy (from Larry dying)
- The bandits going for the motel
The only good thing from the St Johns was recovering Clems hat
To be fair, I don't think that having the boat would have made much difference for what happened to the majority of the group in the end. We were broken up before we had a chance to really make use it.
I think the stranger is the least responsible for the group’s downfall. What did he do exactly? He spoke to Clem on the radio. It's only by chance that Lee and Kenny heard him, so he wasn't even considered an antagonist to them beforehand. He was stalking them but he only really came on the scene in episode 4 the day before Lee's death. How much of the group’s downfall can he really be blamed for?
Clementine didn't just walk to the Marsh House on her own. Whether or not she had talked to him beforehand, it was still a kidnapping.
I prefer to look internally. The St.Johns, Vernon and the stranger were certainly the roots of a lot of problems, but the group could have handled it better.
Who do i blame?
1) Lilly - Things go downhill really fast after she murders Carley, she took two of the groups most competent members out of the equation and it was a big hit. They lost probably the two best shooters, there was nobody really there to challenge a grieving Kenny and the loss in numbers also meant having to give jobs to Ben, who everyone knew wasn't ready for any serious responsibility.
2) Ben - Doesn't need a lot of explanation. Mistakes, mistakes, cowardice and more mistakes.
3) Kenny - I don't blame him for Larry (in fact i agree with him), but the Savannah plan was very poorly thought out. Even though they did eventually get a boat there was never going to be enough space.
Dude! Things went downhill long before Lilly killed Carly. That was Lilly's snapping point. Before Carly was shot the group was already broken, Duck was already bitten, the group's safe haven and their supplies were lost to the bandits and the walkers. Even if the meat locker incident isn't blamed on Kenny that was the start of the chain reaction that broke down the group. It wasn't that Larry died it was the way the situation was handled.
Kenny is a shit leader plain and simple and if Lilly isn't running things, he is. He was in charge during the meat locker scene, he made the call. That incident could of been handled so differently. Because of his impulsiveness and inability to think clearly he took out Larry, nearly got Lee killed by Danny, nearly got his son killed and got shot by Andy all within 10 minutes.
The only thing Lilly can really be blamed for is killing Carly or Doug and she wasn't in her right mind when she did that. Every other decision she made up till then were the right ones, even her actions moments earlier that saved the group from the attacking bandits.
Ben did have a lot of screw ups no doubt but I don't think he really caused the down fall I think mainly it was St johns
You say that but a chain is as strong as it's weakest link. Secrets and lies can cause a group to be broken. Ben was the new comer and was the least closest to the other group members. His loyalty didn't really lie with them after only 1 week. His loyalty was with his friends that the bandits had kidnapped. He was lying to Lee and the rest of the group and doing secret deals with the bandits to keep his friends which they were threatening to harm, safe.
Ben basically caused Lee's group to turn on each other. Carly defended him refusing to belief he could do such a thing and she ended up dying for him all because he was dishonest, untrustworthy and damn right sneaky. I wouldn't want someone like that with me in an apocalypse. He would definitely screw you over to save his own skin.
The only reason people excuse his behaviour is because he is a teenager but he still knows right from wrong. His personality and character are already formed. If he wasn't killed of he would have just grown into an older version of himself. Clementine was half his age and she had integrity and other qualities that would make her a decent adult unless she's corrupted.
Ben was a cancer to Lee's group not because he was clumsy or stupid but because he was dishonest, sneaky and betrayed them. Technically he was the biggest antagonist in the game, he caused the most deaths and the worst thing was we couldn't do anything about it because the problems were happening from within the group.
I voted St. Johns but I actually think Lilly. Ben would have revealed the bandit deal with the group if Lilly wasn't so hostile. Although the St. Johns did lock Larry up and Lee and Kenny helped to kill him (in my playthrough), which caused Lilly to act like this. However people who have lost more than she did wouldn't kill someone in cold blood (Carley), or act horrible to people who did nothing wrong to her (Ben).
I don't blame Ben anyway, they were planning to move on from the Motor Inn eventually. However the Stranger did kind of fuck things up for the rest of the group later on in Episode 4/5, but I considered the group already close to breaking anyway.
You say Ben would have revealed the deal he made with the bandits with the group if Lilly wasn't hostile but he wouldn't have revealed it before the bandits attacked so Duck still would have been bitten, Kat still would have been mortified, their home would still of been lost.
The stranger didn't fuck things up for the rest of the group at all, the only reason he got Clementine is because she went to meet him and she only went to meet him because Lee told her they wouldn't have time to look for her parents.
The stranger was like a spider on a web. The fly flies into the web and remains it's captive. Clem went to him and he didn't let her leave. He didn't steal her, she found him and he refused to let her go. It's not like he took her from the Manor when Lee was at Crawford.
The real breaking point in the group was when the motor inn was lost and overrun and all of that happened because of Ben's secrets and lies. How anyone can blame another character for the groups break down over him is beyond me.
You say that but a chain is as strong as it's weakest link. Secrets and lies can cause a group to be broken. Ben was the new comer and was the least closest to the other group members. His loyalty didn't really lie with them after only 1 week. His loyalty was with his friends that the bandits had kidnapped. He was lying to Lee and the rest of the group and doing secret deals with the bandits to keep his friends which they were threatening to harm, safe.
Ben basically caused Lee's group to turn on each other. Carly defended him refusing to belief he could do such a thing and she ended up dying for him all because he was dishonest, untrustworthy and damn right sneaky. I wouldn't want someone like that with me in an apocalypse. He would definitely screw you over to save his own skin.
The only reason people excuse his behaviour is because he is a teenager but he still knows right from wrong. His personality and character are already formed. If he wasn't killed of he would have just grown into an older version of himself. Clementine was half his age and she had integrity and other qualities that would make her a decent adult unless she's corrupted.
Ben was a cancer to Lee's group not because he was clumsy or stupid but because he was dishonest, sneaky and betrayed them. Technically he was the biggest antagonist in the game, he caused the most deaths and the worst thing was we couldn't do anything about it because the problems were happening from within the group.
Dude , i think calling an antagonist is kinda extreme don't you think . Yes he caused trouble for the group but he din't want to cause them . It's not like he planned this whole scheme , he was threatened by the bandits that they have his friend and that he will die if he won't give them their supplies and medicine .
You say Ben would have revealed the deal he made with the bandits with the group if Lilly wasn't hostile but he wouldn't have revealed it before the bandits attacked so Duck still would have been bitten, Kat still would have been mortified, their home would still of been lost.
The stranger didn't fuck things up for the rest of the group at all, the only reason he got Clementine is because she went to meet him and she only went to meet him because Lee told her they wouldn't have time to look for her parents.
The stranger was like a spider on a web. The fly flies into the web and remains it's captive. Clem went to him and he didn't let her leave. He didn't steal her, she found him and he refused to let her go. It's not like he took her from the Manor when Lee was at Crawford.
The real breaking point in the group was when the motor inn was lost and overrun and all of that happened because of Ben's secrets and lies. How anyone can blame another character for the groups break down over him is beyond me.
Ummmmmm if Clem left in her own free will than why the hell would she leave her hat and her walkie-talkie behind ? I know she would be excited to meet her parents again but not that excited to leave her precious items behind . Also how the hell can she make it so far to the Marsh House on her own with the town full of walkers ?
LEAVE BEN ALONE !!!
Ben is a good guy, he did what he did with the best intentions. He just had too much bad luck, that's all. He didn't betray the group, he stole the supply because he wanted to save his friends whom he thought the bandits had. Of course his best friends was more important than people he'd just met a few days ago. Then he k ept doing it because he didn't want the bandits to attack the group. After that he messed many things up because it was pure bad luck for him but he did tried his best. As Lee said, he's just a teenager after all.
I like Ben a lot because i see myself in him. As a shy teenager in an apocalypse with no friends, no family, among a bunch of strangers, i would have done the same, if not worse.
The reason I say that excuses can't be made for Ben is because he had a good relationship with 2 of the most influential members of the group, Carly and Lee so it's not as if he would have been afraid to tell them what he was doing. He chose not to tell them because he wasn't confident or sure that they would agree. He did what he did to save his friends which the bandits were holding hostage. He proved time and time again that he couldn't be trusted. As the person playing the game I could be subjective and be putting Ben into a box but what reassures me about my opinion of Ben is how all of the npc's except Clementine saw him. Christa had only spent the train journey to Savannah and the remaining day with him before she decided he was a danger to the group and she didn't even know about his secrets and lies and the consequences.
Dude , i think calling an antagonist is kinda extreme don't you think . Yes he caused trouble for the group but he din't want to cause them . It's not like he planned this whole scheme , he was threatened by the bandits that they have his friend and that he will die if he won't give them their supplies and medicine .
You know an antagonist doesn't have to be a person right? It could be anything that causes problems for the main character in a story. Even the weather can be an antagonist.
Ummmmmm if Clem left in her own free will than why the hell would she leave her hat and her walkie-talkie behind ? I know she would be excited to meet her parents again but not that excited to leave her precious items behind . Also how the hell can she make it so far to the Marsh House on her own with the town full of walkers ?
Maybe she dropped her hat and the radio running from the walker that attacked Lee. The impression I got when I played the game is that she ran off in anger whilst Lee was sleeping. I didn't imagine the kidnapper picking her up in his car and taking her to the hotel. I mean, Vernon and the other adults would have still been around and should of been able to hear a car or communication over the radio. I guess, unless Telltale confirm it, we will never know but I definitely felt that she went to meet the stranger at the hotel as opposed to them walking off together hand in hand. It's not the first time she gave the group the slip. She did it 3 times by my count.
The incidents on the St. John's farm put us on the precipice, Ben tipped us over it, and the Stranger finished us off.
To be fair, I don't think that having the boat would have made much difference for what happened to the majority of the group in the end. We were broken up before we had a chance to really make use it.
Clementine didn't just walk to the Marsh House on her own. Whether or not she had talked to him beforehand, it was still a kidnapping.
Yes I also refer to the guy on the radio as the kidnapper in many of my posts but the point i'm making is that he would not have been able to do that if Lee had gone with Clementine to look for her parents as she expected. He benefited from the group breaking down but he did not cause it. Had the group of decided to go somewhere other than Savannah he wouldn't even of met Clementine since he was there when they were on the train. He got Clementine because she ran off. He didn't sneak in the window with “Rufinol”, he "groomed" her, gaining her trust so she would go to him like most abusers do. Although he wasn't an abuser the character was definitely modelled of them which is what gave him that creepy demeanour. So considering his first encounter with Lee's group was the day before Lee died I can't blame him for most of the stuff that went down with the group. Instead I look closer to home. Who was with them before shit went bad not who came into the frame after.
Ben. I'm telling you, that kid is just a pubescent omen of misfortune.
After he shows up, I lose Larry, Mark, Carley, Lily, Katjaa, Duck, Chuck, and Kenny. Also, Molly shows up, mends my broken heart, then takes off and leaves it even more shattered And, of course, Lee gets bitten by a walker! Fortunately, Ben didn't last much longer, so I guess his bad juju never rubbed off on Omid or Christa. How Clementine made it through season 1 alright (relatively) is beyond me.
It's not the dead you have to worry about. It's Ben.
Dude! Things went downhill long before Lilly killed Carly. That was Lilly's snapping point. Before Carly was shot the group was already broken, Duck was already bitten, the group's safe haven and their supplies were lost to the bandits and the walkers. Even if the meat locker incident isn't blamed on Kenny that was the start of the chain reaction that broke down the group. It wasn't that Larry died it was the way the situation was handled.
Kenny is a shit leader plain and simple and if Lilly isn't running things, he is. He was in charge during the meat locker scene, he made the call. That incident could of been handled so differently. Because of his impulsiveness and inability to think clearly he took out Larry, nearly got Lee killed by Danny, nearly got his son killed and got shot by Andy all within 10 minutes.
The only thing Lilly can really be blamed for is killing Carly or Doug and she wasn't in her right mind when she did that. Every other decision she made up till then were the right ones, even her actions moments earlier that saved the group from the attacking bandits.
I should have really said, the loss of Lilly's sanity rather than the murder in particular and while i certainly agree they were in a bad situation i feel it was salvageable at that point. Duck was bitten (not that Lilly knew that), but they had to leave the motel sooner or later anyway with the supplies from Macon running dry and the bandit threat. The point is that when everyone got off that RV on the side of the road it was the last time that the core of the group was intact.
Im not questioning that she was important or that her decision making was on the whole better than Kennys, (though i doubt she really saved the group since Lee was doing a good job of talking them down and she also wanted to the group to stay at the motel/drug store long after it stopped making sense) That's why her taking herself out of the equation (along with the groups best shot, that could have been handy in Ep.4) ripped a big hole in the group. Lilly was an equally flawed leader as Kenny, that's why the group needed them both, so neither ever had full control!
That means that yes it can be traced to the meat locker, but blame doesn't necessarily lie on Kenny. It's cold but when you look at what everyone else had seen and their behavior afterwards, Lilly reacted a whole lot worse to her tragedies. Thats why i blame her. She completely lost her shit and ended up shooting at people who weren't even there when Larry died.
I should point out that she only pipped Ben to my vote by the tiniest amount. I've just ranted about him enough already.
The reason I say that excuses can't be made for Ben is because he had a good relationship with 2 of the most influential members of the group, Carly and Lee so it's not as if he would have been afraid to tell them what he was doing. He chose not to tell them because he wasn't confident or sure that they would agree. He did what he did to save his friends which the bandits were holding hostage. He proved time and time again that he couldn't be trusted. As the person playing the game I could be subjective and be putting Ben into a box but what reassures me about my opinion of Ben is how all of the npc's except Clementine saw him. Christa had only spent the train journey to Savannah and the remaining day with him before she decided he was a danger to the group and she didn't even know about his secrets and lies and the consequences.
But Christa is an adult, and by what she told Lee and Clem she proved to be an experienced and wise woman. Unlike Ben, he is still a high school kid, and not the brightest one, who barely know how the real world works until the apocalypse. His actions were foolish and selfish but that's perfectly normal for kid that age.
But Christa is an adult, and by what she told Lee and Clem she proved to be an experienced and wise woman. Unlike Ben, he is still a high school kid, and not the brightest one, who barely know how the real world works until the apocalypse. His actions were foolish and selfish but that's perfectly normal for kid that age.
Just because his actions were realistic doesn't make them any less stupid. On that same note, it doesn't diminish his massive role in destroying the group.
It just makes it more tragic, as if we needed that.
You know an antagonist doesn't have to be a person right? It could be anything that causes problems for the main character in a story. Even the weather can be an antagonist.
So you are saying whoever causes trouble for the main character is a villain or a antagonist ? Ok so i guess Clementine and Duck are villains and Clementine has to be killed for justice because she caused Lee to die .
Maybe she dropped her hat and the radio running from the walker that attacked Lee. The impression I got when I played the game is that she ran off in anger whilst Lee was sleeping. I didn't imagine the kidnapper picking her up in his car and taking her to the hotel. I mean, Vernon and the other adults would have still been around and should of been able to hear a car or communication over the radio. I guess, unless Telltale confirm it, we will never know but I definitely felt that she went to meet the stranger at the hotel as opposed to them walking off together hand in hand. It's not the first time she gave the group the slip. She did it 3 times by my count.
You know what they say , you can't always trust your feelings . You don't know whether Clem left alone or got kidnapped .
Comments
-Meeting Ben (i like him but he caused a few problems; alright a lot of problems)
-The Death of Larry and Mark
- Lilly going crazy (from Larry dying)
- The bandits going for the motel
The only good thing from the St Johns was recovering Clems hat
And that bread. Mmmmm
Ben is a good guy, he did what he did with the best intentions. He just had too much bad luck, that's all. He didn't betray the group, he stole the supply because he wanted to save his friends whom he thought the bandits had. Of course his best friends was more important than people he'd just met a few days ago. Then he kept doing it because he didn't want the bandits to attack the group. After that he messed many things up because it was pure bad luck for him but he did tried his best. As Lee said, he's just a teenager after all.
I like Ben a lot because i see myself in him. As a shy teenager in an apocalypse with no friends, no family, among a bunch of strangers, i would have done the same, if not worse.
Who do i blame?
1) Lilly - Things go downhill really fast after she murders Carley, she took two of the groups most competent members out of the equation and it was a big hit. They lost probably the two best shooters, there was nobody really there to challenge a grieving Kenny and the loss in numbers also meant having to give jobs to Ben, who everyone knew wasn't ready for any serious responsibility.
2) Ben - Doesn't need a lot of explanation. Mistakes, mistakes, cowardice and more mistakes.
3) Kenny - I don't blame him for Larry (in fact i agree with him), but the Savannah plan was very poorly thought out. Even though they did eventually get a boat there was never going to be enough space.
Get to the bottom of the problem and you'll find zombies.
Haha nice name:D
i hate you Lilly :mad:
Well what's new
True on the surprising part
Depends on what you define as "the group" i guess in a series with a constantly changing cast like this one. Thinking about it in universe then the group for the vast majority of the time were those living at the motor inn (There's less than a week before Lee dies after that, three and a half months before) and the group, at least in that form was shattered before we ever met Vernon. He and the stranger combined to finish off the remnants.
I agree the poll needs a few more options though.
I think the stranger is the least responsible for the group’s downfall. What did he do exactly? He spoke to Clem on the radio. It's only by chance that Lee and Kenny heard him, so he wasn't even considered an antagonist to them beforehand. He was stalking them but he only really came on the scene in episode 4 the day before Lee's death. How much of the group’s downfall can he really be blamed for?
At the end of the day he didn't go to the Manor and take Clementine against her will. She went to the Marsh house hotel where he was waiting. Clementine only went to the hotel because Lee told her there wouldn't be enough time to look for her parents. The stranger was basically an observer in the background watching the group breakdown, getting updates from Clem for his amusement. He didn't cause anyone’s death, he didn't shoot anyone. Lee blamed him for Kenny's death but like I said they were looking for Clementine because she ran off not because he took her.
Even if the guy on the radio never spoke with Clem she would have ran off to look for her parents at their last known location anyway because she was upset that Lee wouldn't help her look for them, especially if he promised to on the train. Lee getting bitten isn't the kidnapper's fault, he didn't plan for that. Lee lost concentration because he was worried about Clementine being missing which could just have easily happened if the guy on the radio wasn't in the game. The guy wanted revenge but didn't get to exact his revenge since the group broke apart by themselves without his intervention.
I say all this to say that the group broke down long before the stranger had any power to be an antagonist. If Ben had been honest with the group about his friends being held by the bandits, Lee and the group would have either helped him by fighting the bandits or the group would have decided to leave before the bandits returned to attack the motor inn. In that case Duck wouldn't have been bitten, Kat wouldn't have committed suicide, Lilly wouldn't have had any problem with Ben since he wouldn't have been stealing supplies and Carly wouldn't have been falsely accused and wouldn't have been shot.
Most of the groups problems were caused by Ben and the rest were caused by Kenny. Yeah I said it! Kenny wanted to stay on the farm even after suspecting foul play when Lilly wanted to leave and return to the motor inn. The meat locker has been covered so many times, so I won't go into that, but I will mention the station wagon since few do. Kenny and his wife were the only (ncp) members of the group that wanted to take the supplies. Everyone else made reasons why they shouldn't take them, even Lilly who said that they would look like monsters to the returning owners of the supplies. Kenny said their taking the stuff regardless of Lee and Clem's opinion, so even if you, as the player side with Clem and leave the stuff, Kenny makes the group take the goods any way, giving birth to our new antagonist.(So there is no further confusion due to language barriers, I am referring to the guy on the radio when I say antagonist)
From Larry dying or from Kenny killing him?
To be fair, I don't think that having the boat would have made much difference for what happened to the majority of the group in the end. We were broken up before we had a chance to really make use it.
Clementine didn't just walk to the Marsh House on her own. Whether or not she had talked to him beforehand, it was still a kidnapping.
Dude! Things went downhill long before Lilly killed Carly. That was Lilly's snapping point. Before Carly was shot the group was already broken, Duck was already bitten, the group's safe haven and their supplies were lost to the bandits and the walkers. Even if the meat locker incident isn't blamed on Kenny that was the start of the chain reaction that broke down the group. It wasn't that Larry died it was the way the situation was handled.
Kenny is a shit leader plain and simple and if Lilly isn't running things, he is. He was in charge during the meat locker scene, he made the call. That incident could of been handled so differently. Because of his impulsiveness and inability to think clearly he took out Larry, nearly got Lee killed by Danny, nearly got his son killed and got shot by Andy all within 10 minutes.
The only thing Lilly can really be blamed for is killing Carly or Doug and she wasn't in her right mind when she did that. Every other decision she made up till then were the right ones, even her actions moments earlier that saved the group from the attacking bandits.
You say that but a chain is as strong as it's weakest link. Secrets and lies can cause a group to be broken. Ben was the new comer and was the least closest to the other group members. His loyalty didn't really lie with them after only 1 week. His loyalty was with his friends that the bandits had kidnapped. He was lying to Lee and the rest of the group and doing secret deals with the bandits to keep his friends which they were threatening to harm, safe.
Ben basically caused Lee's group to turn on each other. Carly defended him refusing to belief he could do such a thing and she ended up dying for him all because he was dishonest, untrustworthy and damn right sneaky. I wouldn't want someone like that with me in an apocalypse. He would definitely screw you over to save his own skin.
The only reason people excuse his behaviour is because he is a teenager but he still knows right from wrong. His personality and character are already formed. If he wasn't killed of he would have just grown into an older version of himself. Clementine was half his age and she had integrity and other qualities that would make her a decent adult unless she's corrupted.
Ben was a cancer to Lee's group not because he was clumsy or stupid but because he was dishonest, sneaky and betrayed them. Technically he was the biggest antagonist in the game, he caused the most deaths and the worst thing was we couldn't do anything about it because the problems were happening from within the group.
You say Ben would have revealed the deal he made with the bandits with the group if Lilly wasn't hostile but he wouldn't have revealed it before the bandits attacked so Duck still would have been bitten, Kat still would have been mortified, their home would still of been lost.
The stranger didn't fuck things up for the rest of the group at all, the only reason he got Clementine is because she went to meet him and she only went to meet him because Lee told her they wouldn't have time to look for her parents.
The stranger was like a spider on a web. The fly flies into the web and remains it's captive. Clem went to him and he didn't let her leave. He didn't steal her, she found him and he refused to let her go. It's not like he took her from the Manor when Lee was at Crawford.
The real breaking point in the group was when the motor inn was lost and overrun and all of that happened because of Ben's secrets and lies. How anyone can blame another character for the groups break down over him is beyond me.
Dude , i think calling an antagonist is kinda extreme don't you think . Yes he caused trouble for the group but he din't want to cause them . It's not like he planned this whole scheme , he was threatened by the bandits that they have his friend and that he will die if he won't give them their supplies and medicine .
Ummmmmm if Clem left in her own free will than why the hell would she leave her hat and her walkie-talkie behind ? I know she would be excited to meet her parents again but not that excited to leave her precious items behind . Also how the hell can she make it so far to the Marsh House on her own with the town full of walkers ?
The reason I say that excuses can't be made for Ben is because he had a good relationship with 2 of the most influential members of the group, Carly and Lee so it's not as if he would have been afraid to tell them what he was doing. He chose not to tell them because he wasn't confident or sure that they would agree. He did what he did to save his friends which the bandits were holding hostage. He proved time and time again that he couldn't be trusted. As the person playing the game I could be subjective and be putting Ben into a box but what reassures me about my opinion of Ben is how all of the npc's except Clementine saw him. Christa had only spent the train journey to Savannah and the remaining day with him before she decided he was a danger to the group and she didn't even know about his secrets and lies and the consequences.
You know an antagonist doesn't have to be a person right? It could be anything that causes problems for the main character in a story. Even the weather can be an antagonist.
Maybe she dropped her hat and the radio running from the walker that attacked Lee. The impression I got when I played the game is that she ran off in anger whilst Lee was sleeping. I didn't imagine the kidnapper picking her up in his car and taking her to the hotel. I mean, Vernon and the other adults would have still been around and should of been able to hear a car or communication over the radio. I guess, unless Telltale confirm it, we will never know but I definitely felt that she went to meet the stranger at the hotel as opposed to them walking off together hand in hand. It's not the first time she gave the group the slip. She did it 3 times by my count.
Yes I also refer to the guy on the radio as the kidnapper in many of my posts but the point i'm making is that he would not have been able to do that if Lee had gone with Clementine to look for her parents as she expected. He benefited from the group breaking down but he did not cause it. Had the group of decided to go somewhere other than Savannah he wouldn't even of met Clementine since he was there when they were on the train. He got Clementine because she ran off. He didn't sneak in the window with “Rufinol”, he "groomed" her, gaining her trust so she would go to him like most abusers do. Although he wasn't an abuser the character was definitely modelled of them which is what gave him that creepy demeanour. So considering his first encounter with Lee's group was the day before Lee died I can't blame him for most of the stuff that went down with the group. Instead I look closer to home. Who was with them before shit went bad not who came into the frame after.
That said, the St John's had a huge influence on events.
After he shows up, I lose Larry, Mark, Carley, Lily, Katjaa, Duck, Chuck, and Kenny. Also, Molly shows up, mends my broken heart, then takes off and leaves it even more shattered
It's not the dead you have to worry about. It's Ben.
I should have really said, the loss of Lilly's sanity rather than the murder in particular and while i certainly agree they were in a bad situation i feel it was salvageable at that point. Duck was bitten (not that Lilly knew that), but they had to leave the motel sooner or later anyway with the supplies from Macon running dry and the bandit threat. The point is that when everyone got off that RV on the side of the road it was the last time that the core of the group was intact.
Im not questioning that she was important or that her decision making was on the whole better than Kennys, (though i doubt she really saved the group since Lee was doing a good job of talking them down and she also wanted to the group to stay at the motel/drug store long after it stopped making sense) That's why her taking herself out of the equation (along with the groups best shot, that could have been handy in Ep.4) ripped a big hole in the group. Lilly was an equally flawed leader as Kenny, that's why the group needed them both, so neither ever had full control!
That means that yes it can be traced to the meat locker, but blame doesn't necessarily lie on Kenny. It's cold but when you look at what everyone else had seen and their behavior afterwards, Lilly reacted a whole lot worse to her tragedies. Thats why i blame her. She completely lost her shit and ended up shooting at people who weren't even there when Larry died.
I should point out that she only pipped Ben to my vote by the tiniest amount. I've just ranted about him enough already.
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But Christa is an adult, and by what she told Lee and Clem she proved to be an experienced and wise woman. Unlike Ben, he is still a high school kid, and not the brightest one, who barely know how the real world works until the apocalypse. His actions were foolish and selfish but that's perfectly normal for kid that age.
It just makes it more tragic, as if we needed that.
So you are saying whoever causes trouble for the main character is a villain or a antagonist ? Ok so i guess Clementine and Duck are villains and Clementine has to be killed for justice because she caused Lee to die .