For the last time, Vince's crime was NOT a crime of passion! Otherwise I would agree, but it isn't!
Regardless, this ENTIRE thread is supposed about whether it's right to judge people purely based on what they did before, not whether murder is a good thing or not!
Why's Flog getting so much hate? I understand choosing Danny is unpopular (which I did), and I too think that murder is a worse crime than rape. That doesn't mean either of us is saying that rape is good! Which, from some of the posts here, people seem to think Flog is implying. It's just that there's a reason why most law systems in the world punish murder more severely than rape. Rape, however psychologically traumatizing, is still an event that you can recover from. And go on with your life. Murder, on the other hand? I don't believe anyone's ever recovered from murder, eh? Think about it- your entire life ended, and the pain that's caused to all your friends and loved ones. Rape's awful, but not on that level.
I'm sorry in advance if my opinions offend anyone. I'm a law student, so believe me, I've had my share of heated discussions on this subject, and we're trained to try and see things from a neutral perspective.
And really, what's with the argument "everyone is against you, arguing just makes you stupid"? We're ALL arguing here. And this isn't a right/wrong topic, but a controversial one. Standing your ground and defending your opinion against massive opposition is, if anything, respectable in my books.
Why's Flog getting so much hate? I understand choosing Danny is unpopular (which I did), and I too think that murder is a worse crime than rape. That doesn't mean either of us is saying that rape is good! Which, from some of the posts here, people seem to think Flog is implying. It's just that there's a reason why most law systems in the world punish murder more severely than rape. Rape, however psychologically traumatizing, is still an event that you can recover from. And go on with your life. Murder, on the other hand? I don't believe anyone's ever recovered from murder, eh? Think about it- your entire life ended, and the pain that's caused to all your friends and loved ones. Rape's awful, but not on that level.
I'm sorry in advance if my opinions offend anyone. I'm a law student, so believe me, I've had my share of heated discussions on this subject, and we're trained to try and see things from a neutral perspective.
And really, what's with the argument "everyone is against you, arguing just makes you stupid"? We're ALL arguing here. And this isn't a right/wrong topic, but a controversial one. Standing your ground and defending your opinion against massive opposition is, if anything, respectable in my books.
Hah, well all of those things are very nice to say. Thanks man.
Thing is, from my observations I reckon most people on this board share the same opinion (some examples: Clem rules, we hate Lilly, Kenny does no wrong, Becca is evil etc.), and so naturally they aren't going to take well to anyone who challenges it on any level.
Seriously though, I appreciate it.
To be honest right now I think this thread has veered a little too off topic, so maybe the mods should lock it down.
I believe the argument is (or at least should be) less "rape has more of a detrimental effect on the victim than murder" and more "it is more feasible for a good person to commit murder than it is for a good person to commit rape." I mean, manslaughter has a worse outcome for the victim than attempted murder but I would rather save a manslaughter...er (whatever) over an attempted murderer.
I believe the argument is (or at least should be) less "rape has more of a detrimental effect on the victim than murder" and more "it is more feasible for a good person to commit murder than it is for a good person to commit rape." I mean, manslaughter has a worse outcome for the victim than attempted murder but I would rather save a manslaughter...er (whatever) over an attempted murderer.
I completely agree. In that regard, Lee cannot be seen as a truly bad person.
However, I think that a crime such as Vince's, where he was fully conscious of what he was doing and his victim was begging for his life, IS probably just as bad, or worse, than rape.
I completely agree. In that regard, Lee cannot be seen as a truly bad person.
However, I think that a crime such as Vince's, where he was fully conscious of what he was doing and his victim was begging for his life, IS probably just as bad, or worse, than rape.
Probably. As others have said, we don't know all the details behind what happened. Regardless, I think most people would find it easier to imagine a scenario in which they would commit a crime like Vince's as opposed to a crime like Danny's. That's why they sympathize with Vince more and, given no other context, would think of Vince as being more of a good guy.
I expected, given Danny's actions on the bus, he'd have my back better after the escape. Not the sort of person I'd want to hang around with, certainly, but in terms of immediate survival, Justin was the weaker link.
I expected, given Danny's actions on the bus, he'd have my back better after the escape. Not the sort of person I'd want to hang around with, certainly, but in terms of immediate survival, Justin was the weaker link.
Like others, I shot Danny because it was his idea. But I disagree on Justin being a weaker survival link. Alone, sure. But as a team, he and Vince were a more balanced combination. At least in my game, he established himself to be something of a human lie detector. Like Clementine but, you know, a scumbag. Combined with Vince's people-murdering skills, they'd take the apocalypse by storm...least until Justin decided to run away like the scumbag he is...
Probably. As others have said, we don't know all the details behind what happened. Regardless, I think most people would find it easier to imagine a scenario in which they would commit a crime like Vince's as opposed to a crime like Danny's. That's why they sympathize with Vince more and, given no other context, would think of Vince as being more of a good guy.
Firstly, thanks for being one of the first people here to discuss this rationally. Those are very good points.
However, I still think if I had to choose between someone who stood between me and a shotgun and tried to save a dying man, and a guy who lied under oath and didn't want to try to help a dying man, I would choose the first.
Like others, I shot Danny because it was his idea. But I disagree on Justin being a weaker survival link. Alone, sure. But as a team, he and Vince were a more balanced combination. At least in my game, he established himself to be something of a human lie detector. Like Clementine but, you know, a scumbag. Combined with Vince's people-murdering skills, they'd take the apocalypse by storm...least until Justin decided to run away like the scumbag he is...
One word, Chuck: Bentin.
I could hear Ben. And while I couldn't bring myself to kill Ben, Justin was like the savvy douche version, so, BOOM.
I agree he would make things more 'balanced', and he's obviously smart, but he's the kind of guy who would split right when things got iffy and leave me in the lurch. Then again, once out of immediate danger with Danny, I would have ditched him. So..
Firstly, thanks for being one of the first people here to discuss this rationally. Those are very good points.
However, I still think if I had to choose between someone who stood between me and a shotgun and tried to save a dying man, and a guy who lied under oath and didn't want to try to help a dying man, I would choose the first.
Okay, first of all, you are quite welcome. I enjoy a civilized discussion even on these less-than-civilized subjects matters.
Second of all, what is everybody's frickin' hold-up about the lying under oath thing??? Why is that so much worse than just lying to people, or in Danny's case, lying to himself? Also, Justin's approach was perfectly reasonable. "Let the guards handle it." It's NOT a good idea to get involved in a prison fight with while armed guards are up and about.
Second of all, what is everybody's frickin' hold-up about the lying under oath thing??? Why is that so much worse than just lying to people, or in Danny's case, lying to himself? Also, Justin's approach was perfectly reasonable. "Let the guards handle it." It's NOT a good idea to get involved in a prison fight with while armed guards are up and about.
Okay, first of all, you are quite welcome. I enjoy a civilized discussion even on these less-than-civilized subjects matters.
Second of all, what is everybody's frickin' hold-up about the lying under oath thing??? Why is that so much worse than just lying to people, or in Danny's case, lying to himself? Also, Justin's approach was perfectly reasonable. "Let the guards handle it." It's NOT a good idea to get involved in a prison fight with while armed guards are up and about.
Because that's lying twice.
And the guard had no idea what to do, he was clearly out of his depth
I'm sure someone on here said once that they shot Danny purely because it meant not having to step over a haemorrhaging and fussing Justin. I mean, gross, right?
I was highly amused, as terrible as the situation is, either way. That's being practical that is
And the guard had no idea what to do, he was clearly out of his depth
Fool me once...
Seriously, though, lying twice to a judge about embezzling money while knowing full well what you did, although scumbaggy, is perfectly sane. Constantly lying to those around you and repeating to yourself that "I'm not like that" smacks of instability. I immediately flashed back to the cop at the beginning of Season 1 talking about the guy who cut up his wife and kept repeating "It's all a big mistake. It wasn't me."
And at the time, none of them knew how incompetent those cops were. If the only thing wrong with Justin's approach was that the guard sucked at his job, then I don't really see that as a point against Justin.
Clem rules, we hate Lilly, Kenny does no wrong, Becca is evil etc.
Well, of those four, I'm only one hundred percent behind hating Lilly. Had my share of arguing with pro-Lilly minority as well. Guess those people felt the same in those topics as I did reading this one, possibly worse, since even Danny seems to be getting more support than Lilly. Heh. The bitch. Ahem, sorry, let that one slip
I know, I have my fair share of battles with Lilly supporters, and I do not regret them at all, well maybe one but the rest no regrets bitch. (I am referring to Lilly.)
Nor do I regret mine. Though I acknowledge that Lilly is too an ambiguous topic and her supporters have every right to defend her. I don't hate them. But by god I hate that woman. Wait, are we gonna derail yet another not-Lilly themed topic with our Lilly hate?
Pretty much, and no I do not hate the supporters, except maybe Ehkay, nor do I have Nikki Rapp, hell she should be commended for making me hate someone so much. I just hate Lilly the character.
Wait, are we gonna derail yet another not-Lilly themed topic with our Lilly hate?
Given that this is a thread about rapists vs murderers vs overall scumbag double-liars, I doubt anyone's gonna be too upset to see this one go off its rails.
Given that this is a thread about rapists vs murderers vs overall scumbag double-liars, I doubt anyone's gonna be too upset to see this one go off its rails.
I certainly won't be. Let the derailing continue, I say...
I support Lilly and wish we were given a choice between going with her and Kenny (if it hadn't been for the road to woodbury fiasco then that may well have happened) but I am not foolish enough to declare this militantly on a forum where people get angry every single time someone says that they don't completely HATE the woman
Thing is, from my observations I reckon most people on this board share the same opinion (some examples: Clem rules, we hate Lilly, Kenny does no wrong, Becca is evil etc.), and so naturally they aren't going to take well to anyone who challenges it on any level.
Yes Clem does indeed rule. I don't hate Lily nor think Kenny is the greatest thing since sliced bread,i like them both and I think Becca is annoying for sure but not evil and no I of course will not kill her like some people have suggested they would!
Given that this is a thread about rapists vs murderers vs overall scumbag double-liars, I doubt anyone's gonna be too upset to see this one go off its rails.
Flog, I have defended you before, but now I'm going to take this here pitchfork and drive it straight up your arse, then burn you at the stake.
...just kidding. I too would support a Lilly vs Kenny choice. I wouldn't take it, not after the RV scene. However... if the choice happened before Lilly shot Carley- like you could take her side and then she murders Kenny instead... you know, I'd give it a 50/50 chance for the un-biased episode 3 player me to pick either way.
I know, I got a feeling that it was after episode 2 then most would have saved Lilly, but after episode 3 most would have saved Kenny, and by now 85% would save Kenny, and 5% would do nothing.
It would all boil down to the meatlocker choice I suppose. In both instances, when you side with one character, he starts having your back more, while the other leaves you for dead at least on one occasion. In my first play I sided with Kenny, therefore Lilly was the one who left me for dead, which sparked hate for her. So after episode 2, when presented with Lilly vs Kenny choice, I probably would have went with Kenny.
I support Lilly and wish we were given a choice between going with her and Kenny (if it hadn't been for the road to woodbury fiasco then that may well have happened) but I am not foolish enough to declare this militantly on a forum where people get angry every single time someone says that they don't completely HATE the woman
This might be strange coming from me, but... I DON'T HATE LILLY. I dislike her. I can't say I straight up hate her, given other posts I've seen declaring THEIR hatred for her, because the things they say are a bit too extreme for me, and the way I interpreted her. I also don't think Kenny is the greatest person to ever live (although he is, in my book, the shit).
Kenny was not a saint by any stretch of the imagination, but he was a fun, cool, loyal friend that will stick with you to the end if you side with him, and I once liked Lilly long long time ago, I can still remember how that music used to make me smile...
Kenny was not a saint by any stretch of the imagination, but he was a fun, cool, loyal friend that will stick with you to the end if you side with him...
Flog, I have defended you before, but now I'm going to take this here pitchfork and drive it straight up your arse, then burn you at the stake.
...just kidding. I too would support a Lilly vs Kenny choice. I wouldn't take it, not after the RV scene. However... if the choice happened before Lilly shot Carley- like you could take her side and then she murders Kenny instead... you know, I'd give it a 50/50 chance for the un-biased episode 3 player me to pick either way.
I think at that point most players would have picked anything that got them closer to having sex with Carley to be perfectly honest.
If Carley always died in episode 1 and doug always lived, I doubt as many people would hate her.
I for one found what happened to Lilly, if not empathetic then sympathetic. Her father was murdered in front of her, that's going to drive a girl crazy and it's going to give her trust issues.
I'm still glad she left though, I don't want someone that unstable in the group. Shame Kenny had to stay as well though.
Comments
For the last time, Vince's crime was NOT a crime of passion! Otherwise I would agree, but it isn't!
Regardless, this ENTIRE thread is supposed about whether it's right to judge people purely based on what they did before, not whether murder is a good thing or not!
Confirmed as ambiguous by Telltale.
Yep, I can do that too
Again that has no bearing.
The point isn't whether Lee PERCEIVED Larry to be dead, it's whether he actually WAS.
When we analyse the way in which Telltale handled his death, we are talking about it from the player's perspective, not the character.
I'm sorry in advance if my opinions offend anyone. I'm a law student, so believe me, I've had my share of heated discussions on this subject, and we're trained to try and see things from a neutral perspective.
And really, what's with the argument "everyone is against you, arguing just makes you stupid"? We're ALL arguing here. And this isn't a right/wrong topic, but a controversial one. Standing your ground and defending your opinion against massive opposition is, if anything, respectable in my books.
Hah, well all of those things are very nice to say. Thanks man.
Thing is, from my observations I reckon most people on this board share the same opinion (some examples: Clem rules, we hate Lilly, Kenny does no wrong, Becca is evil etc.), and so naturally they aren't going to take well to anyone who challenges it on any level.
Seriously though, I appreciate it.
To be honest right now I think this thread has veered a little too off topic, so maybe the mods should lock it down.
GODDAMMIT BEN, your right, it was not confirmed dead, you got me there.
I completely agree. In that regard, Lee cannot be seen as a truly bad person.
However, I think that a crime such as Vince's, where he was fully conscious of what he was doing and his victim was begging for his life, IS probably just as bad, or worse, than rape.
Great.
[Redacted anecdote]
Probably. As others have said, we don't know all the details behind what happened. Regardless, I think most people would find it easier to imagine a scenario in which they would commit a crime like Vince's as opposed to a crime like Danny's. That's why they sympathize with Vince more and, given no other context, would think of Vince as being more of a good guy.
I expected, given Danny's actions on the bus, he'd have my back better after the escape. Not the sort of person I'd want to hang around with, certainly, but in terms of immediate survival, Justin was the weaker link.
Like others, I shot Danny because it was his idea. But I disagree on Justin being a weaker survival link. Alone, sure. But as a team, he and Vince were a more balanced combination. At least in my game, he established himself to be something of a human lie detector. Like Clementine but, you know, a scumbag. Combined with Vince's people-murdering skills, they'd take the apocalypse by storm...least until Justin decided to run away like the scumbag he is...
Firstly, thanks for being one of the first people here to discuss this rationally. Those are very good points.
However, I still think if I had to choose between someone who stood between me and a shotgun and tried to save a dying man, and a guy who lied under oath and didn't want to try to help a dying man, I would choose the first.
One word, Chuck: Bentin.
I could hear Ben. And while I couldn't bring myself to kill Ben, Justin was like the savvy douche version, so, BOOM.
I agree he would make things more 'balanced', and he's obviously smart, but he's the kind of guy who would split right when things got iffy and leave me in the lurch. Then again, once out of immediate danger with Danny, I would have ditched him. So..
Okay, first of all, you are quite welcome. I enjoy a civilized discussion even on these less-than-civilized subjects matters.
Second of all, what is everybody's frickin' hold-up about the lying under oath thing??? Why is that so much worse than just lying to people, or in Danny's case, lying to himself? Also, Justin's approach was perfectly reasonable. "Let the guards handle it." It's NOT a good idea to get involved in a prison fight with while armed guards are up and about.
Never concerned me.
Because that's lying twice.
And the guard had no idea what to do, he was clearly out of his depth
I was highly amused, as terrible as the situation is, either way. That's being practical that is
Fool me once...
Seriously, though, lying twice to a judge about embezzling money while knowing full well what you did, although scumbaggy, is perfectly sane. Constantly lying to those around you and repeating to yourself that "I'm not like that" smacks of instability. I immediately flashed back to the cop at the beginning of Season 1 talking about the guy who cut up his wife and kept repeating "It's all a big mistake. It wasn't me."
And at the time, none of them knew how incompetent those cops were. If the only thing wrong with Justin's approach was that the guard sucked at his job, then I don't really see that as a point against Justin.
Well, of those four, I'm only one hundred percent behind hating Lilly. Had my share of arguing with pro-Lilly minority as well. Guess those people felt the same in those topics as I did reading this one, possibly worse, since even Danny seems to be getting more support than Lilly. Heh. The bitch. Ahem, sorry, let that one slip
Given that this is a thread about rapists vs murderers vs overall scumbag double-liars, I doubt anyone's gonna be too upset to see this one go off its rails.
I certainly won't be. Let the derailing continue, I say...
Yes Clem does indeed rule. I don't hate Lily nor think Kenny is the greatest thing since sliced bread,i like them both and I think Becca is annoying for sure but not evil and no I of course will not kill her like some people have suggested they would!
Well, at least I worked out how to use the ignore function. So, I'm happy enough.
Yeah lets get this train off the tracks!
...just kidding. I too would support a Lilly vs Kenny choice. I wouldn't take it, not after the RV scene. However... if the choice happened before Lilly shot Carley- like you could take her side and then she murders Kenny instead... you know, I'd give it a 50/50 chance for the un-biased episode 3 player me to pick either way.
This might be strange coming from me, but... I DON'T HATE LILLY. I dislike her. I can't say I straight up hate her, given other posts I've seen declaring THEIR hatred for her, because the things they say are a bit too extreme for me, and the way I interpreted her. I also don't think Kenny is the greatest person to ever live (although he is, in my book, the shit).
For this line, you win the internets.
That's not "loyal." That's fair-weather.
I think at that point most players would have picked anything that got them closer to having sex with Carley to be perfectly honest.
If Carley always died in episode 1 and doug always lived, I doubt as many people would hate her.
I for one found what happened to Lilly, if not empathetic then sympathetic. Her father was murdered in front of her, that's going to drive a girl crazy and it's going to give her trust issues.
I'm still glad she left though, I don't want someone that unstable in the group. Shame Kenny had to stay as well though.