Interesting quote from a brilliant man, but why are political parties to blame for the shutdown (what I assume is your implication)? American political parties today are very different and are now relatively weak. American politics today is candidate-centered and issue-centered, and candidates communicate with voters in ways that don't require the Party. Also, direct voter primaries now choose party nominees. Anyway, the leader of the opposition to Obamacare is the impressive patriot Senator Ted Cruz, who rebukes his own party's establishment leadership as much as he does Obama!
If you want some founding-era material that speaks perfectly to the current situation, start with the United States Constitution (and in particular the 10th amendment) and what it describes for the limited role of the federal government. The Constitution is disregarded by many of our own representatives, including Obama, who swore an oath to preserve, protect and defend it. They believe the central government's power ought to be limitless.
The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite. The former will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation and foreign commerce. ... The powers reserved to the several States will extend to all the objects which in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives and liberties, and properties of the people, and the internal order, improvement and prosperity of the State.
George Washington was not affiliated with any political parties, and he expressed his concern that political parties "are likely in the course… more of time and things, to become potent engines, by which cunning, ambitious, and unprincipled men will be enabled to subvert the power of the people and to usurp for themselves the reins of government, destroying afterwards the very engines which have lifted them to unjust dominion."
I wish people listened to him.
Or maybe it's because Obamacare is a disaster and the American people know it.
Look, you can call people who disagree with you names all day long. Calling people who disagree with you "hateful" and therefore unworthy of being heard is the most tired tactic in the book. Pro-life? Hate women! Disagree with Obama? Racist hater! Believe in the definition of marriage? Hate gays! None of these charges are true, of course, but the insidious practice of calling people who disagree with you "full of hate!" is used over and over because it works.
I really think a lot of it is liberal projection. Have you guys seen how tolerant those preaching tolerance the loudest really are? Check out how they treat conservative women, conservative non-whites and conservative gays. The amount of sick bile slung at those who reject the liberal orthodoxy is really unbelievable, and it always focuses on the person's gender, skin color or sexual orientation. They are considered a traitor to their gender or not truly black or whatever if they dare think for themselves. But of course the news media and pop culture ignore it and often perpetuate it. Glaring double standard.
Yeah, all I gotta say is: fuck those guys. Fuck them all.
The Republican party is a beached whale, a mass of blubber struggling to survive … morein a world where at best they are outdated and obsolete and at worst, dragging down any progress with hatred, bigotry, and misogyny. The only reason they have any power at all is through deluding their voter base with their thin veneer of supporting religion, but that's not going to last forever and eventually, they'll find themselves collapsing under their own weight.
What they did here wasn't politics. It was the beginning of death throes. They've put so much into opposing the Affordable Care Act that if it succeeds, which they're terrified it will, they will lose what little respect they had. They wouldn't be opposing it if they thought it would fail. They would LOVE for it to fail. Then they could get it completely defunded with no problems and look like the good guys and reclaim their voter base. It… [view original content]
I have to say, I agree with Mortis. About the futility of moderating here; about the whiny babies in Congress... all of it.
MtnPeak, you're just plain wrong. The Affordable Healthcare Act passed through Congress, was signed by the President, and was upheld by the Supreme Court. It's law now. Despite this, the Republicans have wasted valuable time trying to repeal it, and when that didn't work they shut down the government until it's defunded. All you do is blame Obama, presumably because Fox News and Rush Limbaugh told you to.
Disagree with you about the moderators. They do a great job and are necessary when the immature name-calling starts. I hope they never leave. The ones here are excellent. Who knows when this forum will revert back to a decent format or when a new web manager is hired at Telltale. They shouldn't give up their privileges. Hang in there if you can, guys!
As for the rest of what you say, if you're concerned with following the law, you might want to have a chat with Obama about his unlawful and unilateral changes to the law and his practice of granting exemptions. If the law is the law, then it should be applied equally to everyone. And, by the way, laws do not necessarily exist in perpetuity. They can be repealed and defunded. As much as you would like it to, the issue isn't going away any time soon. It is going to be with us in future elections. Isn't voting great? It's interesting how some people are so quick to say "shut up with your disagreement, it's the law!" only when it comes to laws they agree with. I assume you held the same opinion of DOMA, the Patriot Act, etc. Obama isn't king, you know, and congressional representatives of the people have the power to check him. Don't forget that voters took away control of Congress from the Dems in 2010.
I have to say, I agree with Mortis. About the futility of moderating here; about the whiny babies in Congress... all of it.
MtnPeak, you're… more just plain wrong. The Affordable Healthcare Act passed through Congress, was signed by the President, and was upheld by the Supreme Court. It's law now. Despite this, the Republicans have wasted valuable time trying to repeal it, and when that didn't work they shut down the government until it's defunded. All you do is blame Obama, presumably because Fox News and Rush Limbaugh told you to.
"They passed it without Republican input" therefore he believes. (He actually does in mind) because of that. It makes the law invalid. There were Republicans there, there just wasn't a majority. Right now, we're entering day 2 of the shut down. Republicans refuse to even bring the CR (Clean Resolution) up for a vote.
They keep saying. "Obama negotiates with Iran, but he won't negotiate with us" eerily sounding like MtnPeak. The problem it is now law. Any "negotiation" would be to strip or defund the law. Obama ran on this health care issue. Romney promised to repeal the law on the first day of office.
The American people knew exactly what they were getting when they vote for Obama. Both Florida and Ohio. States that went republican in the past, turned blue last election. In fact its getting harder for the Republicans to even win the white house. No Republican has even been President without winning Ohio.
This is nothing more then holding the american people hostage, impacting millions of people. For the sake of a petty "I don't like the law, so I'm going not pass this, destroy all these good things till I get my way" The problem is the republicans are under estimating Obama resolve on this. They will not be getting their way.
I have to say, I agree with Mortis. About the futility of moderating here; about the whiny babies in Congress... all of it.
MtnPeak, you're… more just plain wrong. The Affordable Healthcare Act passed through Congress, was signed by the President, and was upheld by the Supreme Court. It's law now. Despite this, the Republicans have wasted valuable time trying to repeal it, and when that didn't work they shut down the government until it's defunded. All you do is blame Obama, presumably because Fox News and Rush Limbaugh told you to.
For the record, it annoys me that people tie Christianity to the Republican Party or vice versa.
I'm a Christian, and I'm a Democrat.
… more
... not to move the topic to religion. It just rubs me wrong that Republicans are using my faith simply as a political tool to sway the uninformed.
Also, regarding the moderators: yes they are good, but meanwhile this place is in ruins and most everyone has left. We're just here to watch the place smoulder.
Actually, that reminds me of a parable about the "foolish man who built his house upon the sand. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash."
You say it's "petty" to oppose this law? Sigh. I don't think you understand the opposition. This is a huge deal. Government takeover of 1/6 of the economy is not the same as voting on who the Ambassador to Iceland will be. This would be like he EU eventually taking over the healthcare for all of Europe. Hey, Germans, enjoy paying for Greece and Spain. If ever a fight was in order, this is it. Even if a deal is eventually struck that favors Dems, voters will see who fought to stop this.
You also need to understand that this law will hurt many, many more than a temporary partial non-essential government shutdown. I know you don't believe it, but at least recognize the view of the opposition.
I mean, I'm sorry the National Zoo will have to shut off the live panda cam this week, but I think the world will go on.
Also, it's worth noting that the House already passed bills funding all of the government but Obamacare. Obama already granted delays to the corporations who have been lobbying and to congressional staff (because it's not ready), but he refuses to give the rest of the country the same delay. There's only a shutdown because Obama insisted on this.
Here is MtnPeak argument
"They passed it without Republican input" therefore he believes. (He actually does in mind) because of that. It ma… morekes the law invalid. There were Republicans there, there just wasn't a majority. Right now, we're entering day 2 of the shut down. Republicans refuse to even bring the CR (Clean Resolution) up for a vote.
They keep saying. "Obama negotiates with Iran, but he won't negotiate with us" eerily sounding like MtnPeak. The problem it is now law. Any "negotiation" would be to strip or defund the law. Obama ran on this health care issue. Romney promised to repeal the law on the first day of office.
The American people knew exactly what they were getting when they vote for Obama. Both Florida and Ohio. States that went republican in the past, turned blue last election. In fact its getting harder for the Republicans to even win the white house. No Republican has even been President without winning Ohio.
This … [view original content]
Before this became law. Insurance company's were able to drop you for pre existing conditions. Say you got sick, they would go through your file with a fine tooth comb if they found anything they could use. You would be left on your own. That is just one of the many examples that touts how popular this is.
You claim this law will hurt many more people. I ask you to provide examples. Back four years ago. When Sarah Palin was running for VP. She claimed this Health Care would have "Death Panels" just seven months ago. Michelle Batch man claimed this law would literally kill children and senior citizens.
Your side keeps saying this law will be the doom of us all. Yet you provided no examples, nothing your side said has come true, at all.
It's not just the national zoo that's impacted. Veterans returning home cannot file for disability till this claimed is resolved. Parks and museums would be closed. Roughly estimates eight hundred thousand government workers will not have a paycheck. Office for the government 3/4 are closing due to this shut down. That's not even the full list.
Yes. Obama extended a one year delay to the law for corporations to take time to get things in order. That doesn't mean "law is failure, repeal all of it." He can do that. Because he's the President and its his health care law. Honestly what does it matter that it was delayed one hour. What if any meaning does this have, at all.
The shut down is happening because the Republicans refuse to pass a bill. Voting on a clean resolution has nothing to do with Obamacare. In fact, it goes into effect without that bill being passed. Right now people are engaging in the exchange. What this is really about, is a borderline domestic terror threat aka (tea party) that refuses to pass something. (Like a dictator) till they get their way.
In the history of the government. Even when Bush was in office. There has never been a threat to not pass a bill to fund the government. That shows you how historically desperate these Tea Party thugs are. I regret to inform you. You are on the losing side of this battle. In fact a poll released by CNN, shows a majority of American People blame Republicans for the shut down.
It's amazing "Republicans say, we're listening to the American People" so much they're willing to shut down entire government. Then why when 90 percent of American People supported background checks at Gun Shows. They voted down the bill. Less then half of majority is complaining about Obamacare. Republicans are being very hypocritical
You say it's "petty" to oppose this law? Sigh. I don't think you understand the opposition. This is a huge deal. Government takeover of 1/6 of… more the economy is not the same as voting on who the Ambassador to Iceland will be. This would be like he EU eventually taking over the healthcare for all of Europe. Hey, Germans, enjoy paying for Greece and Spain. If ever a fight was in order, this is it. Even if a deal is eventually struck that favors Dems, voters will see who fought to stop this.
You also need to understand that this law will hurt many, many more than a temporary partial non-essential government shutdown. I know you don't believe it, but at least recognize the view of the opposition.
I mean, I'm sorry the National Zoo will have to shut off the live panda cam this week, but I think the world will go on.
Also, it's worth noting that the House already passed bills funding all of the government but Obamacare. Obama already granted dela… [view original content]
"I have no faith in the federal government to manage the healthcare industry"
You know, I can see that point. I too have concerns about privacy, the idea of care rationing, increased prices on medical devices and special exemptions given to government employees, corporations and unions. The thing is, I've watched all of those issues be abused by the PRIVATE industry. It seems like a pointless argument to dream up all these potential horrific situations that the federal government might one day commit. I mean, what's the alternative? What we already have. The private industry has done such a bang up job that a law like this was needed in the first place. I mean, why else are we discussing pre-existing conditions? You're worried about rationing, what about being dropped by your insurance company because you get cancer? You're worried about paying a little tax on a medical device, what about 2/3 of bankruptcies in this country being due to health care costs?
We've seen how the private industry has handled the situation when it comes to health care, and quite frankly what they already have done is terrifying. It's much more terrifying than any of the imagined horror scenarios you believe the government might do. And that to me speaks to what is so frustratingly unfair about the whole "debate". We're currently living in the hell that is private industry run health care, we get to try your experiment. But when people like me want to try our government run experiment, we aren't given that same chance. The closest we have is Medicare/Medicaid... and interestingly enough the overwhelming majority of people absolutely love their government coverage. It's why something like the public option was brilliant. Let the people decide who they want to trust. In your post you ask "Why do you want to force this one size fits all approach on the entire country?" I'd ask you the same question. Let's have real choice, rather than either a 100% private or 100% government. The most successful health care programs in other countries use this hybrid system.
"They decided to try to change healthcare for EVERYONE in an effort to one day have the government be the sole insurance provider for over 300 million Americans. Of course this will result in rationing, lower quality care, higher prices, etc."
This claim is simply absurd. First, that's a really large assumption about what the role of the Affordable Care Act is. If the goal is to change to a nationalized system, this bill that is a huge give away to corporations who control the health care system is in exactly the opposite direction. I can't tell if you're assuming that by giving corporations millions of new customers this will somehow demonstrate how poorly corporations run and cause people to clamor for government run health care instead, but based on the law itself it's just not true. Again, rationing already exists under corporate health care. Lower quality care? I should point you to the World Health Organization report that listed America as 37th in terms of health care, putting America slightly above Cuba and just behind Costa Rice. I shouldn't need to mention that obviously nationalized health care is already providing higher quality care than we receive. Finally higher prices? That same WHO report that shows us as 37th in terms of the health care provided also shows that we are FIRST when it comes to health care spending per capita. We have FAR and away the most expensive health care system in the world... all to bring you that 37th best quality of care. It isn't wise to declare what "will" happen, when so much evidence exists to the contrary. It reminds me a lot of when Republicans made up those fictional "death panels" that they claimed were in Obamacare... the same "death panels" that already exist, in the private system.
"And most especially the fact that we would be saddling future generations with an unthinkable amount of debt."
That's somewhat bothersome. First, you started it by saying "the fact" when it's anything but. This has been fact checked by many organizations and it simply isn't true. The CBO is a non-partisan group whose sole job is to analyze the bills in Congress to determine these sorts of issues. They have said time and time again that Obamacare as it stands will actually reduce the deficit. It's a special irony to the latest political developments. Repealing Obamacare has not only cost a lot in terms of wasted tax dollars, it will actually increase the deficit. Here's a link to a recent fact check via CNN.
What's especially bothersome about this is the fact that the largest chunk of the debt conservatives are so worried about passing along to their children actually stem from their own policies. Sure there's small stuff, like shutting down the government. The shutdown in the 90s cost our nations billions of dollars, and every day this shut down goes on our bill goes up. There's all of the tax dollars wasted on symbolic votes, like to repeal Obamacare. But most importantly, there's the military budget. The budget that's so large it consumes over half of every dollar in federal taxes. Our military is already larger than the next 14 nations combined. And yet it's the ONLY area of the government that conservatives absolutely refuse to cut. Why are Republicans so insistent on cutting drops in the bucket like food stamps for the elderly, children and veterans (they make up 85% of food stamp recipients after all) but refuse to cut even a dime from a beast that's consuming more than half of all of our taxes? When Clinton left America with a surplus going into the 2000s, it was Bush and a Republican controlled Congress that left us in a huge financial hole. They started not one, but two wars. And for the first time in American history they started war without raising taxes. Instead they lowered taxes on the rich. According to Politifact, during President George W. Bush's first term federal spending increased at a rate of 33%, in his second term spending rose another 34%. Under Obama federal spending increased 11.2%. Not bad considering Obama entered into and ended a recession and had two unfunded wars to pay for. That means federal spending rose three times faster under Bush and his mostly Republican Congress than it has under Obama. Also notice in that link how President Obama has already added more jobs during his years on the job than were added under President Bush during both of his terms, and that number is growing. So please forgive us if we're all extremely tired of hearing Republicans lecture us all on the dangers of the debt and the deficit. Start with the bloated military budget and THEN get back to us.
You keep mentioning that Democrats, or Obama, received no input from Republicans over things like the health care law. I know that this is a common talking point on conservative media. But it simply is not the case. First where did the public option go? That was President Obama's original law, but due to Republicans in Congress it was stripped out. The entire basis for the law was actually started by a conservative think tank in the 80s under Bush Sr. The individual mandate was thought up as an alternative to a fear of nationalized healthcare. It's built around the very idea that individuals should be responsible for their own care, rather than risking not having insurance and passing those expensive medical bills onto the rest of us. Various Republican candidates promoted the issue and it garnered extensive and widespread support and even was even proudly mentioned as the federal solution after Romneycare's success... until President Obama mentioned it. And just like every other Republican idea that Obama mentions, suddenly it became some form of toxic socialism from Europe. The same thing happened with Cap and Trade, a free market solution proposed several decades ago by Republicans.
Then there's the anecdotal story about your brother seeing his hours cut back due to Obamacare. No serious economist backs this claim, quite simply the data does not back up these anecdotal stories. There's a lovely fact check here showing that actually since Obamacare passed 87% of new jobs were Full Time jobs. For sure there are some companies who have made changes in regards to this, but it's a tiny amount of the actual labor force. It's another example of letting the media reporting exaggerate a problem that doesn't exist. And further, long before Obama ever got into office I personally worked for a huge company who deliberately stopped hiring full time people in order to avoid giving them insurance along with other benefits. During my entire 10 year stretch at that company, I was the only full time person who was hired. This wasn't due to Obamacare, this was due to corporate greed. The same as any companies trying to dodge that same bullet now. Though it does make me wonder, even if you believed the exaggerated stories about companies slashing hours to avoid paying their employees insurance... why exactly do you want these companies controlling your health care? It's the perfect example of companies putting profits over people and rationing their health care. The thing I don't understand is that every conservative seems to hate the idea of the government doing this, but when a corporation does far worse it's fine.
There are simply so many of your claims I'd love to get to, but I think I've gone on more than long enough. It reminds me a lot of Fox News, the more of your comments I read the more misinformed I became. It's not too surprising since most of the links you provided came not from fact checkers or non-biased sources but instead came from GOP websites or right wing blogs. I know it's tempting to only read the news sites that tell you what you want to hear and confirm what you already believe, but since I'm assuming you vote please take a small amount of time out of your day to at least read the news to see the reality that the rest of us actually live in.
I guess we just disagree on the means of achieving the best health care for the largest number of people.
I have no faith in the federal go… morevernment to manage the healthcare industry, to value medical record privacy (IRS political targeting, NSA leaks, etc. haven't helped strengthen my faith in government to be honest, impartial and effective and to protect sensitive info),
and I don't like the idea of care rationing, increased taxes on medical devices, nor do I like the special exemptions given to government employees, politically-connected corporations (and soon unions), the coverage of illegal immigrants, tax payer-funded abortions, and most especially the fact that we would be saddling future generations with an unthinkable amount of debt.
No, I believe there are better options. Here is a summary of a few that I think most people could agree on: http://www.gop.gov/indepth/pledge/healthcare
The broader debate is about the role of the … [view original content]
I would say it's the other way around: Liberals are largely tolerant of religions, if not religious themselves, with a few exceptions. Even in the Democrat primaries, an atheist wouldn't stand a chance.
The LA Times had a wonderful piece about what Abraham Lincoln had to say. From February 1860.
"Your purpose, then, plainly stated, is that you will destroy the Government, unless you be allowed to construe and enforce the Constitution as you please, on all points in dispute between you and us. You will rule or ruin in all events. [...]
Under all these circumstances, do you really feel yourselves justified to break up this Government unless such a court decision as yours is, shall be at once submitted to as a conclusive and final rule of political action?
But you will not abide the election of a Republican president! In that supposed event, you say, you will destroy the Union; and then, you say, the great crime of having destroyed it will be upon us! That is cool. A highwayman holds a pistol to my ear, and mutters through his teeth, "Stand and deliver, or I shall kill you, and then you will be a murderer!" [...]
A few words now to Republicans. It is exceedingly desirable that all parts of this great Confederacy shall be at peace, and in harmony, one with another. Let us Republicans do our part to have it so. Even though much provoked, let us do nothing through passion and ill temper. "
Here is what some of the biggest newspapers had to say about the shut down.
The Wall Street Journal:
We support the Republican effort to get the best deal they can, especially in the face of Mr. Obama's cynicism. But sooner or later the GOP will have to fund the government and raise the debt ceiling that expires two weeks from now. Republicans will have made their point about fighting hard on principle while noting that to achieve more on ObamaCare they'll need more Senate Republicans after 2014 and a GOP President after 2016. Unlike much of what you hear these days out of Washington, this has the added advantage of being true.
USA Today:
In this case, however, the "they're all bums" reaction is off-base. This shutdown, the first in 17 years, isn't the result of two parties acting equally irresponsibly. It is the product of an increasingly radicalized Republican Party, controlled by a disaffected base that demands legislative hostage-taking in an effort to get what it has not been able to attain by the usual means: winning elections
New York Times:
By Tuesday morning, the leadership failure of Speaker John Boehner was complete. In encouraging the impossible quest of House Republicans to dismantle health care reform, he pushed the country into a government shutdown that will now begin to take a grievous economic toll.
Washington Post:
Americans' respect for their Congress has, sad to say, diminished in recent years. But citizens still expect a minimal level of competence and responsibility: Pay the bills and try not to embarrass us in front of the world.
By those minimal standards, this Congress is failing. More specifically, the Republican leaders of the House of Representatives are failing. They should fulfill their basic duties to the American people or make way for legislators who will.
Chicago Tribune:
We're debt hawks. The unconscionable failure of Democrats and Republicans to deal with the growth of entitlement spending that has fueled the nearly $17 trillion in federal debt creates its own economic peril. The most frustrating thing is that a resolution of this impasse almost certainly won't deal with that entitlement crisis.
LA Times:
The GOP's clear objective is to dismantle the act, not to improve it — and the single-minded focus on that goal is what has led to the partial government shutdown that began Tuesday. Democrats can hardly be blamed for refusing to bargain over how to sabotage the law before it fully takes effect.
Chicago Sun-Times:
The federal government is partially shut down because an extreme faction of House Republicans is using its leverage to try to derail the Affordable Care Act, also known as Obamacare.
New York Daily News:
The elderly veterans who stormed the closed World War II Memorial in Washington on Tuesday showed more class, sense and spine than all of the Republicans who led Congress into shutting down the federal government.
New York Post:
Today the ObamaCare health exchanges go up. Meanwhile, the federal government appears to be shutting down. Once again, Washington’s got it completely backward.
We’ve long been skeptical of the defunding strategy, for one reason: Republicans don’t have the votes in the Senate
Denver Post:
Incredibly, Republican hard-liners have triggered a shutdown in pursuit of a hopeless quest to delay or even defund the Affordable Care Act.
"As a matter of journalism, any story that presents the disagreements as a "standoff," a "showdown," a "failure of leadership," a sign of "partisan gridlock," or any of the other usual terms for political disagreement, represents a failure of journalism and an inability to see or describe what is going on... This isn't "gridlock." It is a ferocious struggle within one party, between its traditionalists and its radical factions, with results that unfortunately can harm all the rest of us — and, should there be a debt default, could harm the rest of the world too."
I actually did prefer when Republicans were just fighting over the budget. At least then, they were not trying to destroy the government in the process. These Tea Party members could watch Congress burn, for all they care. They have no respect for how the government functions as a body.
I must place some of the blame directly on Fox News. If they were not always spreading lies and misinformation. This extreme faction might not have risen through the ranks and elected into office. Fox News so desperate to rip the Dems, they created indirectly another party so extreme they would hurt Wall Street interest and even big corporations. (Something the Republicans always stood for)
As bad as they are and what Republicans stand for. At least they didn't want to tear the government down. I consider the Tea Party Domestic Terrorists. They are inflicting the greatest harm. In front of the entire world we are an embarrassing waiting game.
Obama will not reverse his signature health care law. House Speaker refuses to bring the bill to the floor. As bad as I want the Republicans look, I think its not safe to keep going at this pace. Not saying Obama will cave that will not happen. So House MUST approve the bill or they will destroy America cemented in its extreme hatred over this health care act.
And there's this from James Fellows at the Atlantic.
Your False-Equivalence Guide to the Days Ahead
"As a matter of journalism, any sto… morery that presents the disagreements as a "standoff," a "showdown," a "failure of leadership," a sign of "partisan gridlock," or any of the other usual terms for political disagreement, represents a failure of journalism and an inability to see or describe what is going on... This isn't "gridlock." It is a ferocious struggle within one party, between its traditionalists and its radical factions, with results that unfortunately can harm all the rest of us — and, should there be a debt default, could harm the rest of the world too."
I was going to go through and make my own arguments but since fusedmass has done a pretty good job and I may not be coming back to this forum after this post, here's a few last words:
I'd comment, but then I'd have to click that link and read something to understand what you're saying, and then formulate a response. The barrier to entry in terms of participation in this conversation is WAY too high, that kind of bar would require reading, thinking, and writing. What do you think I am, NOT an American?!
I'm just going to click the thumb button that correlates to whatever prejudice I brought with me into the thread.
I was going to go through and make my own arguments but since fusedmass has done a pretty good job and I may not be coming back to this forum … moreafter this post, here's a few last words:
Some notes on what the ACA actually does, and how it will affect you: http://www.doctoroz.com/videos/affordable-care-act-what-you-need-to-know
Also, reality has a liberal bias.
It would almost be fun to watch the train wreck that is the current Republican party go through these very public temper tantrums if it didn't involve taking the US economy hostage along with any chance of a functional government. I think perhaps the biggest threat is the precedent it sets for the future. It's just the Republicans behaving this poorly now, but what about a little further down the road should a Republican ever be elected (or more likely elected through redistricting and voter suppression) back into Presidency. We didn't need another filibuster to allow minority parties to completely bog down our entire government process, but I'll bet you this sort of hostage taking becomes the new political normal. From one manufactured crisis to the next it seems.
Fox News certainly contributed to this horrible mess. I almost feel bad for Republicans who are forced to go to these ridiculous extremes in order to be elected in the primaries by pandering to a delusional base fed a fact-free diet from a number of right wing talking points. If you say something even remotely rational, like say believing in the science behind global warming, your Republican political career is over. And to be fair, it's got to be difficult to run against Obama. He's run a better war on terror, deported more people, launched more drones, drilled for more oil, done a better job with the economy, taxes remain at historic lows, government spending is being reduced, shut down more marijuana shops... I mean what really can they get him on? His biggest achievement is the health care law based around the individual mandate that was a Republican plan for decades. Just imagine trying to run as a Republican today. If you're remotely rational you come across sounding like Obama and you'll be eaten alive in those primaries.
The only upside to this debacle is that Obama desperately needs a functional Congress, and up until this government shutdown I had a very dim view of those prospects in 2014. The midterm elections always have a terrible turn out, and the fewer voters the worse it is for Democrats. But now, it's almost as if the Republicans are just handing the next election over to the Democrats. Then again I never under estimate the ability of American voters to completely forget about basic details about what happened only months earlier and for small groups of dedicated Republicans to constantly vote against their own self-interests.
I actually did prefer when Republicans were just fighting over the budget. At least then, they were not trying to destroy the government in th… moree process. These Tea Party members could watch Congress burn, for all they care. They have no respect for how the government functions as a body.
I must place some of the blame directly on Fox News. If they were not always spreading lies and misinformation. This extreme faction might not have risen through the ranks and elected into office. Fox News so desperate to rip the Dems, they created indirectly another party so extreme they would hurt Wall Street interest and even big corporations. (Something the Republicans always stood for)
As bad as they are and what Republicans stand for. At least they didn't want to tear the government down. I consider the Tea Party Domestic Terrorists. They are inflicting the greatest harm. In front of the entire world we are an embarrassing waiting game.
Obama will n… [view original content]
I don't doubt that you're sincere, but you have your facts wrong.
Moderate Senate Dems balked, and that's why there was no public option. Democrats controlled the Senate, House and the Presidency. To blame Republicans for something not getting passed in that situation is worse than just silly partisan spin... it's flat out wrong.
The 2000-page law was crafted through back room deals, against the will of the people, and voted on without those voting on it even reading the whole thing. It moves us closer to nationalized health care, which is the liberals' goal.
No wonder the country wants this thing gutted or totally repealed. I'm confident it will be reversed, but it will take several election cycles. Don't underestimate the committed opposition to government takeover of healthcare in this country.
2014 will likely be a bad year for Dems, but how bad is the question. Hillary is very beatable in 2016, and I'd love to see someone like Rand Paul elected. At least we'd have someone who respects the Constitution in there.
"I have no faith in the federal government to manage the healthcare industry"
You know, I can see that point. I too have concerns about pr… moreivacy, the idea of care rationing, increased prices on medical devices and special exemptions given to government employees, corporations and unions. The thing is, I've watched all of those issues be abused by the PRIVATE industry. It seems like a pointless argument to dream up all these potential horrific situations that the federal government might one day commit. I mean, what's the alternative? What we already have. The private industry has done such a bang up job that a law like this was needed in the first place. I mean, why else are we discussing pre-existing conditions? You're worried about rationing, what about being dropped by your insurance company because you get cancer? You're worried about paying a little tax on a medical device, what about 2/3 of bankruptcies in this country being due … [view original content]
If you are tired of the same old news media and "comedy" shows that exist largely as an echo chamber arm of the Democrat Party, demonizing political opposition and making excuse after excuse for Obama, you should check out http://www.reason.com
They have had a lot of great, intelligent coverage of Obamacare. Here's a recent roundup of analysis:
No offense to MtnPeak. He seems to be living on a different planet. It's like we're having two seperate conversations. In mine, The Republicans refused to pass a clean resolution to fund the government. Unless Dems Negotiated with Republican to strip away funding from Obamacare. In his point of view, Harry Reid (Dem Majoroity leader) shut the government down and we have a duty to stop millions of Americans from having affordable health care insurance.
Even though. I linked a quote from a Republican directly, complaining that hes being disrespected and he doesn't even know what he wants out of the shut down. Proves how clueless these people really are. They tried to shut it down to stop Obamacare. That failed. What exactly is there objective now, other then holding hundreds of millions of Americans hostage..because they feel disrespected.
This quote says everything about the Republican shut down, that you need to know.
Marlin Stutzman shutdown
House Republicans are continuing to play hardball in negotiations over the spending bill that precipitated the government shutdown on Oct. 1, apparently out of fear that compromise would weaken their power.
"We're not going to be disrespected," Rep. Marlin Stutzman (R-Ind.) told The Washington Examiner. "We have to get something out of this. And I don't know what that even is."
The GOP spent much of Wednesday blaming President Barack Obama and the Democrats for the effects of the shutdown, which led to the furlough of 800,000 workers and the closure of numerous government services. They failed to mention that the spending bill didn't pass because they loaded the bill with restrictions on the Affordable Care Act, a law that passed in 2010 and was found constitutional by the Supreme Court earlier this year.
In an effort to end the shutdown, Democrats are seeking the passage of a "clean" continuing resolution to fund the government while further negotiations on the budget take place. Most, if not all, Democrats would vote for it, and enough Republicans are publicly now on board to pass it.
At the time of this writing, however, such a vote is still being thwarted by the GOP leadership.
Certainly sincere, but my facts are pretty much spot on. You can't really pick and choose these things to fit a limited and biased argument. Interestingly I pretty much disassembled a multitude of your points and I actually used fact checkers to do so. Your rebuttal ignored all but a few minor issues that you think are wrong. I would liked more acknowledgement to the fact that your previous posts contained so many factual errors and mistakes, instead of immediately trying to reset the score. Up until this point, you have been the furthest thing from any sort of unbiased dealer of facts. That said...
Moderate Democrats balked at the public option? This implies that Republicans were in agreement with it. It's completely disingenuous to try and blame the entire Democratic party because a few members had disagreement. In fact, in my opinion that's one of the strengths of the Democratic party. They care more about voting for the issues, rather than catering to partisan politics. In order for your statement to be true, there would have to be some Republicans in favor of the common sense public option for the Democrats to have single handedly killed the public option. But sadly every single Republican and a handful of Democrats sealed it's fate, at least for now. The overwhelming majority of those against the idea were Republican. So if your point was simply that a small fraction of the Democratic party didn't not vote blindly based on party, this is true. However as I said previously the overwhelming majority of Republicans against the idea is why that better solution did not happen. When you have forty Republicans all voting along partisan lines it just doesn't make sense to ignore that obstruction simply because a few Democrats might not have gone along with the idea. Say you had a group of marbles, 40 of them green and 1 or 2 of them purple. Would you then call that group of marbles purple? Of course not. It works the same here. It's so funny with Republicans literally running their party on obstruction, yet every time they obstruct something successfully they immediately try to point to one or two Democrats. Take some responsibility for those actions.
Further this is always an interesting position taken by Republicans. Let's tackle the Senate during that period which you claim "Democrats controlled". This would be true if the filibuster wasn't abused in the way it is today. Sadly now in order to pass legislation through the Senate you need to accomplish a full 60 votes. During this period the Democrats only controlled 58 seats, not enough to effectively pass legislation when the entire Republican party votes unanimously along party lines. During this period of control, to pass any bill past Republican obstruction it would have required all Democrats in the Senate voting unanimously AND convincing two Independents. Democrats had the majority, but with the filibuster abuse it was far from control.
Of course the law was passed through back room deals. That's how most laws in this country are passed, like it or not. The way that Republicans suddenly obsess over this concept is laughable. How do you think Halliburton got all that support? Through an open and honest process? Come on now. Just like every other issue, it wasn't an issue until Obama became President. With the stranglehold that the private industry has over our nations health care, of course they wouldn't just allow politicians to come along and change things. Perhaps if Republicans had been willing to compromise and work together in Congress, but sadly they were more intent on labeling a massive give away to private industry corporations as socialism and a "government take over" both of which are completely false but certainly cater to their base. Even after several meetings with Obama and Congressional Democrats on the issue and even after Obama personally inserted several of their ideas into the law itself after these meetings Republicans still obstructed the law at any cost. I already mentioned the incredible compromise of removing the public option, but there was also a large focus on tort reform. A HUGE Republican pet project for years to protect corporations from the little guys. As Mitch McConnell said their goal was focused on making Obama a one term President, rather than working together to come to any sort of compromise.
You again say it moves us closer to nationalized health care, claiming it's the liberals goal. But as I stated previously, that's not the law we have. The individual mandate requires every citizen to enroll with an insurance company, these are private insurance companies. Not nationalized health care by any means. It's actually and factually completely the opposite. Trust me, I've tried and tried to get some sort of government insurance for years. As I stated before you currently get to live your dream of participating in the nightmare that is the private industry health care system. I don't get the option to live my dream of participating in the lower costs and better care of nationalized health care. I wish you were right, but that's simply not what the law does.
Then you claim the country wants the entire thing gutted or totally repealed. That's misrepresents the country. Even John McCain admits this country went to the polls and Republicans made this law the central issue in their case to the American people. Obama was re-elected with over 5 million votes to spare. You would be correct in stating that conservatives want the law gutted or repealed, but not by suggesting the "country" does. Again the opposite actually happens to be the case. Most of those unhappy with law are folks like myself who believe that it simply doesn't go far enough. We don't want it repealed or gutted, we want it expanded. See, I actually want to put the nationalized health care you think is in there... in there for real. One of the most interesting things about conservatives is how much they hate the name Obamacare but actually love what's in the law. Recent polling already showed that conservatives supported the law 8% more if you called it the Affordable Care Act rather than Obamacare. This has more to do with blind political partisanship than it has do with any sort of fears about a government take over of health care. Remember that the overwhelming majority of the Tea Party and the Republicans who feel this way are white seniors... who depend on government health care. As the wonderful Tea Party supports like to say "Keep your government hands off my Medicare!". They love government health care, they just don't want a black Democrat to have any part of it.
We'll see about 2014. Typically turn out for midterms are very low, and the lower the voter turn out the better it is for Republicans. As most Americans vote Democrat, Republicans find their best results when they can get their base into a frenzy while no one else shows up at the polls. I would've agreed with you about their odds a few months ago. But thanks to the spectacle that is the Republican party I'm not so sure. This whole government shut down has proven to be very unpopular and the polling shows it's given Democrats the largest lead before a midterm election ever. The only issue I see is that Americans will probably forget by this time next year, and we'll see the usual low information voters lining up to vote in more Republicans.
I'm sure you believe Hillary is "very beatable", but much like many of your beliefs you've posted it simply does not make it so. I'll put it this way. I'm happier with the odds on that election than I have been for the last two. And don't even get me started on Rand Paul. He's not as racist as his father, that's a plus. He's got a long way to go with women, the poor and minorities. He's a science denier and he's had many issues following the Constitution... for example he recently had this to say about the Affordable Care Act.
"Just because a couple people on the Supreme Court declare something to be 'constitutional' does not make it so"
Actually, that's exactly how it works
Again I would like to stress not to rely so much on the "information" you're gathering from those right wing corners or our world. They've made a huge billion dollar industry of telling you exactly what you want to hear. You're beginning to sound like Fox News and the right wing media predicting the land slide win for Mitt Romney. I just want to save you the agony of waking up after another election to find out that everything you thought you knew about what the American people wanted was completely and totally wrong.
And with that said, I'm out. Unfortunately I have better things to do. Why, you ask? Well it's because we're participating in a well known quirk about the human mind. People, especially those who are very partisan in their beliefs as you are, tend to respond to facts that challenge their beliefs not by changing their beliefs but by increasing the strength of their original belief. They did a study over WMDs in Iraq. They asked conservatives if Iraq had these weapons and then showed them the evidence that Iraq did not have any WMDs. They then asked those same conservatives, now armed with the knowledge that Iraq did not have any WMDs, if Iraq had WMDs. They found that despite the evidence demonstrating they were wrong, they believed more strongly that Iraq did have WMDs with many concocting new theories that would validate their beliefs. That he moved the weapons, or had them destroyed for example. Here's an interesting article on this phenomenon called the Backfire Effect. I too don't doubt you're sincerity, however I do doubt the logic of continuing this "debate". The more I counter your claims and beliefs with evidence and fact checkers, the more strongly you'll continue to believe. So for now, good day sir. I shall see you in line come election day!
I don't doubt that you're sincere, but you have your facts wrong.
Moderate Senate Dems balked, and that's why there was no public option. D… moreemocrats controlled the Senate, House and the Presidency. To blame Republicans for something not getting passed in that situation is worse than just silly partisan spin... it's flat out wrong.
The 2000-page law was crafted through back room deals, against the will of the people, and voted on without those voting on it even reading the whole thing. It moves us closer to nationalized health care, which is the liberals' goal.
No wonder the country wants this thing gutted or totally repealed. I'm confident it will be reversed, but it will take several election cycles. Don't underestimate the committed opposition to government takeover of healthcare in this country.
2014 will likely be a bad year for Dems, but how bad is the question. Hillary is very beatable in 2016, and I'd love to see someone like Ra… [view original content]
LOL say what you will about MtnPeak but come on... if nothing else his posts are worth a chuckle. Like this comment?
"If you are tired of the same old news media ... demonizing political opposition and making excuse after excuse for Obama"
From the conservatives who sent political ads for John McCain featuring Obama near airliners suggesting he was a terrorist, who still ask questions about his birth certificate, who think he's some sort of Kenyan muslim socialist... but it's the OTHER guys who are doing the demonizing.
Let's see what reality has to say about this claim... from Kantar Media/Campaign Media Analysis Group, which tracks political ad spending.
"70% of ads run by Democrats in the general election campaign for president have been POSITIVE in nature, while 73% of commercials run by Republicans were NEGATIVE"
But of course, I'm sure his post wasn't serious. It was just another attempt to demonstrate where he's fed his news, once again from conservative media.
It is without a doubt very amusing, how Republicans view the media. They call it the "Elite Liberal Media" because they expose the lies they have been flaunting. Media knows exactly who's fault it is. In fact, there was an open mic comment between Rand Paul and Minority Senate Leader Mitch. Here's what they said.
Every day this goes on. The Republicans look worst and worst. They are getting hammered left and right. Not just by Dem. But in reality in General. The only network that isn't exposing their lies is Fox News (What a surprise)
MtnPeak, gives an inside look what Republicans really believe. It's scary and both amusing at the same time.
LOL say what you will about MtnPeak but come on... if nothing else his posts are worth a chuckle. Like this comment?
"If you are tired of … morethe same old news media ... demonizing political opposition and making excuse after excuse for Obama"
From the conservatives who sent political ads for John McCain featuring Obama near airliners suggesting he was a terrorist, who still ask questions about his birth certificate, who think he's some sort of Kenyan muslim socialist... but it's the OTHER guys who are doing the demonizing.
Let's see what reality has to say about this claim... from Kantar Media/Campaign Media Analysis Group, which tracks political ad spending.
"70% of ads run by Democrats in the general election campaign for president have been POSITIVE in nature, while 73% of commercials run by Republicans were NEGATIVE"
But of course, I'm sure his post wasn't serious. It was just another attempt to demonstrate where he's fed his news, once again from conservative media.
This got me thinking about how every conservative I've ever met or talked to gets their news exclusively from right wing news sources. Fox News, Breitbart, Reason. Yet, of all the liberals I know they get their news from the news organizations that are usually the most unbiased and reputable sources. Places like the New York Times, NPR or even the BBC. Very few seem to even watch MSNBC, and those who do typically do it after they've read the news from other outlets and seem to view it more as entertainment.
I guess it's no surprise why discussions like this always end the way they do. They've gotten so tired of reality constantly proving them wrong, that they've simply made their own news stations to constantly tell them only what they want to hear. They did a study that demonstrated conservatives were the only group to lose faith in science over the past 40 years. There has been a 25% drop amongst conservatives who trust in science, while moderates and liberals levels of trust remained the same.
The author had this to say, "It kind of began with the loss of Barry Goldwater and the construction of Fox News and all these [conservative] think tanks. The perception among conservatives is that they're at a disadvantage, a minority. It's not surprising that the conservative subculture would challenge what's viewed as the dominant knowledge production groups in society - science and the media."
No wonder we can't even agree on facts, they no longer believe in science. For them it's all about "truthiness".
"Truthiness is a quality characterizing a "truth" that a person making an argument or assertion claims to know intuitively "from the gut" or because it "feels right" without regard to evidence, logic, intellectual examination, or facts."
It is without a doubt very amusing, how Republicans view the media. They call it the "Elite Liberal Media" because they expose the lies they h… moreave been flaunting. Media knows exactly who's fault it is. In fact, there was an open mic comment between Rand Paul and Minority Senate Leader Mitch. Here's what they said.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eziI4h3J0Eg
If that wasn't bad enough. The media is confronting the Republicans on their lies. This entire thing is clear to me. And I don't work in politics.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag5AMqve5ZU#t=409
Every day this goes on. The Republicans look worst and worst. They are getting hammered left and right. Not just by Dem. But in reality in General. The only network that isn't exposing their lies is Fox News (What a surprise)
MtnPeak, gives an inside look what Republicans really believe. It's scary and both amusing at the same time.
To be honest. I am tired, of Senators that we elect for the people, by the people. Going to Congress and causing harm to the exact same people. They promised to protect. I live in Texas. Ted Cruz said "People don't work for Politicians, Politicians work for the people" however roughly estimated eight hundred thousand people in Congress are laid out.
He is the leading force behind the shut down. Standing for 21 hours before the CR(Clean Resolution Vote) now that government has passed the deadline. He has no exit stragery other then to "get something out of it". You don't get something out of it for doing your job. A CR has nothing to do with Obamacare.
Its used as leverage to get what you want. We are cemented in Gridlock. The freshman Senator from Texas, in my humble point of view. Is not doing what the people elected him to do. That's why with the help of Move on. I started a petition on Move On. To recall Ted Cruz. Even if it doesn't work. At least an effort is being made.
If you feel so encouraged. then please sign here. As Obama once said. Change doesn't happen from washing inside out. Change comes from the people to Washington.
This got me thinking about how every conservative I've ever met or talked to gets their news exclusively from right wing news sources. Fox Ne… morews, Breitbart, Reason. Yet, of all the liberals I know they get their news from the news organizations that are usually the most unbiased and reputable sources. Places like the New York Times, NPR or even the BBC. Very few seem to even watch MSNBC, and those who do typically do it after they've read the news from other outlets and seem to view it more as entertainment.
I guess it's no surprise why discussions like this always end the way they do. They've gotten so tired of reality constantly proving them wrong, that they've simply made their own news stations to constantly tell them only what they want to hear. They did a study that demonstrated conservatives were the only group to lose faith in science over the past 40 years. There has been a 25% drop amongst conservatives who trust in science, wh… [view original content]
Sounds like even crazy ol' anti-tax GOP strategist Grover Norquist wants him gone. Grover just said "He pushed House Republicans into traffic and wandered away" and plenty more about Cruz.
And you'd think rallying behind a Canadian would've been a winner for the GOP. Still curious why the GOP doesn't seem nearly as obsessed with his birth certificate... at least Obama's was actually from America.
I'm with you on your petition, but I'm not interested in signing up with MoveOn. I just spent the past six months trying to close out those sorts of things after constantly being overwhelmed in my inbox and mailbox. Sign up for one and before you know it you've got like sixteen different groups sending your newsletters and constant requests for $3 or $5. And then there's what they do with your information when they have it...
To be honest. I am tired, of Senators that we elect for the people, by the people. Going to Congress and causing harm to the exact same people… more. They promised to protect. I live in Texas. Ted Cruz said "People don't work for Politicians, Politicians work for the people" however roughly estimated eight hundred thousand people in Congress are laid out.
He is the leading force behind the shut down. Standing for 21 hours before the CR(Clean Resolution Vote) now that government has passed the deadline. He has no exit stragery other then to "get something out of it". You don't get something out of it for doing your job. A CR has nothing to do with Obamacare.
Its used as leverage to get what you want. We are cemented in Gridlock. The freshman Senator from Texas, in my humble point of view. Is not doing what the people elected him to do. That's why with the help of Move on. I started a petition on Move On. To recall Ted Cruz. Even if it doesn't wor… [view original content]
I'm interpreting the laws for Texas. 19 states you can recall senators. They claim in Texas, you cannot recall a Senator. However, there are two ways around this. You could start a petition draft under another state and deliver it to Texas. Or the House can do it with two third of the vote.
Since Ted Cruz pretty much stood for 21 hours on the Senate floor. Then walked away while the battle went on. Perhaps I should change my petition to asking the House to remove him. Gaining enough signatures from Texans in the process. At least it raises awareness.
Cruz not entirety to blame. The GOP went along with his speech. Those tea party extreme fanatics holding America hostage. I'd like to say. He doesn't speak for the rest of Texas.
Sounds like even crazy ol' anti-tax GOP strategist Grover Norquist wants him gone. Grover just said "He pushed House Republicans into traffic… more and wandered away" and plenty more about Cruz.
And you'd think rallying behind a Canadian would've been a winner for the GOP. Still curious why the GOP doesn't seem nearly as obsessed with his birth certificate... at least Obama's was actually from America.
I'm with you on your petition, but I'm not interested in signing up with MoveOn. I just spent the past six months trying to close out those sorts of things after constantly being overwhelmed in my inbox and mailbox. Sign up for one and before you know it you've got like sixteen different groups sending your newsletters and constant requests for $3 or $5. And then there's what they do with your information when they have it...
Ted Cruz is a hero. He speaks for me and millions of others. It is refreshing to see a conservative politician with conviction doing what he was elected to do. That's right. He was elected to fight Obamacare every step of the way, and bless him for following through. I don't suppose any of you here were too bothered when Obamacare was being forced through by Pelosi and Reid (Obama couldn't be bothered with the legislative details, if you'll remember... I think he had some celebrity worship music concerts and golf to attend to) against the country's wishes. I love Ted Cruz because he is smarter than all of the Democrat Party combined and doesn't get intimidated or back down in the face of the demonization heaped on him by the Obama-supporting news media. If the Obama propaganda MSNBC channel hosts are getting their panties in a bunch over Cruz, that means he's doing something right!
I'm interpreting the laws for Texas. 19 states you can recall senators. They claim in Texas, you cannot recall a Senator. However, there are t… morewo ways around this. You could start a petition draft under another state and deliver it to Texas. Or the House can do it with two third of the vote.
Since Ted Cruz pretty much stood for 21 hours on the Senate floor. Then walked away while the battle went on. Perhaps I should change my petition to asking the House to remove him. Gaining enough signatures from Texans in the process. At least it raises awareness.
Cruz not entirety to blame. The GOP went along with his speech. Those tea party extreme fanatics holding America hostage. I'd like to say. He doesn't speak for the rest of Texas.
Actually he is not. I dislike him so much. That I not only started that petition. I called my local newspaper today and explained the situation to them. I asked if they would be interested in a story. You know what. They are having a reporter call me tomorrow and I'm going there to have my picture taken. That's right. I'm going to be in my local newspaper in Texas, speaking against Ted Cruz.
When your done with that. Obama has laid out a nice speech today. I seriously suggest you watch both videos in full length, then kindly respond.
Ted Cruz is a hero. He speaks for me and millions of others. It is refreshing to see a conservative politician with conviction doing what he w… moreas elected to do. That's right. He was elected to fight Obamacare every step of the way, and bless him for following through. I don't suppose any of you here were too bothered when Obamacare was being forced through by Pelosi and Reid (Obama couldn't be bothered with the legislative details, if you'll remember... I think he had some celebrity worship music concerts and golf to attend to) against the country's wishes. I love Ted Cruz because he is smarter than all of the Democrat Party combined and doesn't get intimidated or back down in the face of the demonization heaped on him by the Obama-supporting news media. If the Obama propaganda MSNBC channel hosts are getting their panties in a bunch over Cruz, that means he's doing something right!
Norquist isn't a strategist. He's an open borders and tax reform activist who makes candidates sign his pledge. His going after Cruz will only strengthen Cruz's standing among the base who votes in midterms.
And please make as many Moveon petitions as you can. Being hated and feared by Moveon.org types is the best help Cruz could get among Republican voters. The only people moved by that stuff are partisan far left-wing people who would never vote for him anyway. If you really want to do damage to Cruz, have an anti-conservative site like that endorse him.
Sounds like even crazy ol' anti-tax GOP strategist Grover Norquist wants him gone. Grover just said "He pushed House Republicans into traffic… more and wandered away" and plenty more about Cruz.
And you'd think rallying behind a Canadian would've been a winner for the GOP. Still curious why the GOP doesn't seem nearly as obsessed with his birth certificate... at least Obama's was actually from America.
I'm with you on your petition, but I'm not interested in signing up with MoveOn. I just spent the past six months trying to close out those sorts of things after constantly being overwhelmed in my inbox and mailbox. Sign up for one and before you know it you've got like sixteen different groups sending your newsletters and constant requests for $3 or $5. And then there's what they do with your information when they have it...
Usually when writing "words" in phone numbers, people don't use the junk character 1(Just call 1-800-F1UCK-YO doesn't have much of a ring to it), and I've never seen "Yo" used to replace "You", but sure I guess?
I have something I know you guys will like. Take a look at what the official telephone hotline number for the disastrous Obamacare spells out:… more
Language warning.
http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/oct/3/naughty-number-obamacare-hotlines-vulgar-suggestio/
Absolutely classic. And truthful about what the law does.
He isn't feared. That's the problem you seriously don't understand. He urged Republicans "Fight Obamacare, even though it passed both the House and Senate, upheld by the Supreme Court. Stay strong, hold Americans Hostage and we will win" guess what. Obamacare is still here regardless.
Now Republicans have no chips to bargain with at all. They keep saying, "we want to negoiate on a law that passed 5 years ago" Rand Paul was caught on live mic spilling his guts about "he thinks they are going to win" I don't know what planet you are living on. It certainty isn't this one.
No one fears Ted Cruz. We think he's a complete wacko Tea Party extremist who rather make thousands of programs and millions of Americans suffer like a spoiled little child, acting like a dictator simply because he didn't get his way. To call him a clown. Would be an insult. To clowns.
Norquist isn't a strategist. He's an open borders and tax reform activist who makes candidates sign his pledge. His going after Cruz will only… more strengthen Cruz's standing among the base who votes in midterms.
And please make as many Moveon petitions as you can. Being hated and feared by Moveon.org types is the best help Cruz could get among Republican voters. The only people moved by that stuff are partisan far left-wing people who would never vote for him anyway. If you really want to do damage to Cruz, have an anti-conservative site like that endorse him.
Ok, I didn't realize you started the petition. Well, that's your right.
Here's what I really think: many Democrats who otherwise wouldn't want the national government assuming so much control over our healthcare only feel inclined to want to defend Obamacare for partisan reasons. If you called it BushCare they'd say HECK NO. They listen to Daily Show and parrot the trendy liberal lines. Still, the law is less popular than you might think among Democrat voters. This thing is going to go down because Democrat voters will increasingly oppose it.
When you're losing your job/work hours and insurance plan and seeing other people get subsidies without having to verify their income, when you're paying more for insurance as a result of Obamacare which is really one big tax according to the Supreme Court, and to say nothing of quality and availability of care, it won't matter how the Daily Show mocks this or that politician. The Democrats are hoping to get as many people hooked on the subsidy as they can, and if enough don't sign up then it won't work. It's kind of sad how they lie to sell it.
Actually he is not. I dislike him so much. That I not only started that petition. I called my local newspaper today and explained the situatio… moren to them. I asked if they would be interested in a story. You know what. They are having a reporter call me tomorrow and I'm going there to have my picture taken. That's right. I'm going to be in my local newspaper in Texas, speaking against Ted Cruz.
When your done with that. Obama has laid out a nice speech today. I seriously suggest you watch both videos in full length, then kindly respond.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_yhwXFfvDk
Don't look now, but you may have another Cruz on your hands. Some people think his father should run for the other seat from Texas. Wouldn't that be great? It's not hard to see where Ted gets it from. The 80-year-old Rafael can sure work the crowd:
I'm interpreting the laws for Texas. 19 states you can recall senators. They claim in Texas, you cannot recall a Senator. However, there are t… morewo ways around this. You could start a petition draft under another state and deliver it to Texas. Or the House can do it with two third of the vote.
Since Ted Cruz pretty much stood for 21 hours on the Senate floor. Then walked away while the battle went on. Perhaps I should change my petition to asking the House to remove him. Gaining enough signatures from Texans in the process. At least it raises awareness.
Cruz not entirety to blame. The GOP went along with his speech. Those tea party extreme fanatics holding America hostage. I'd like to say. He doesn't speak for the rest of Texas.
I don't know whats wrong with you. You Republicans chest pound that you want to save money. It's costing 33 million dollars a day for the government shut down. How about that you want more money to bring down our debt. You would remove tax on medical devices for big corporations. The fact you believe Ted Cruz a freshman Senator is some modern day hero. Makes me seriously wonder about you.
If you haven't noticed. Most Americans blame Republicans for this mess. They are holding hostage programs that usually get passed, to get their way. This is a five year fight. They seriously need to look at the millions of American people and programs. It's a shock to me the government hasn't yet been overthrown by the people, considering they cannot even do their job.
I have something I know you guys will like. Take a look at what the official telephone hotline number for the disastrous Obamacare spells out:… more
Language warning.
http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/oct/3/naughty-number-obamacare-hotlines-vulgar-suggestio/
Absolutely classic. And truthful about what the law does.
Comments
Nah, I'm more like the guy toasting marshmellows at the edge.
Telltale did the burning thing all by themselves.
Interesting quote from a brilliant man, but why are political parties to blame for the shutdown (what I assume is your implication)? American political parties today are very different and are now relatively weak. American politics today is candidate-centered and issue-centered, and candidates communicate with voters in ways that don't require the Party. Also, direct voter primaries now choose party nominees. Anyway, the leader of the opposition to Obamacare is the impressive patriot Senator Ted Cruz, who rebukes his own party's establishment leadership as much as he does Obama!
If you want some founding-era material that speaks perfectly to the current situation, start with the United States Constitution (and in particular the 10th amendment) and what it describes for the limited role of the federal government. The Constitution is disregarded by many of our own representatives, including Obama, who swore an oath to preserve, protect and defend it. They believe the central government's power ought to be limitless.
The Federalist #45:
http://www.constitution.org/fed/federa45.htm
-James Madison
Or maybe it's because Obamacare is a disaster and the American people know it.
Look, you can call people who disagree with you names all day long. Calling people who disagree with you "hateful" and therefore unworthy of being heard is the most tired tactic in the book. Pro-life? Hate women! Disagree with Obama? Racist hater! Believe in the definition of marriage? Hate gays! None of these charges are true, of course, but the insidious practice of calling people who disagree with you "full of hate!" is used over and over because it works.
I really think a lot of it is liberal projection. Have you guys seen how tolerant those preaching tolerance the loudest really are? Check out how they treat conservative women, conservative non-whites and conservative gays. The amount of sick bile slung at those who reject the liberal orthodoxy is really unbelievable, and it always focuses on the person's gender, skin color or sexual orientation. They are considered a traitor to their gender or not truly black or whatever if they dare think for themselves. But of course the news media and pop culture ignore it and often perpetuate it. Glaring double standard.
I have to say, I agree with Mortis. About the futility of moderating here; about the whiny babies in Congress... all of it.
MtnPeak, you're just plain wrong. The Affordable Healthcare Act passed through Congress, was signed by the President, and was upheld by the Supreme Court. It's law now. Despite this, the Republicans have wasted valuable time trying to repeal it, and when that didn't work they shut down the government until it's defunded. All you do is blame Obama, presumably because Fox News and Rush Limbaugh told you to.
Disagree with you about the moderators. They do a great job and are necessary when the immature name-calling starts. I hope they never leave. The ones here are excellent. Who knows when this forum will revert back to a decent format or when a new web manager is hired at Telltale. They shouldn't give up their privileges. Hang in there if you can, guys!
As for the rest of what you say, if you're concerned with following the law, you might want to have a chat with Obama about his unlawful and unilateral changes to the law and his practice of granting exemptions. If the law is the law, then it should be applied equally to everyone. And, by the way, laws do not necessarily exist in perpetuity. They can be repealed and defunded. As much as you would like it to, the issue isn't going away any time soon. It is going to be with us in future elections. Isn't voting great? It's interesting how some people are so quick to say "shut up with your disagreement, it's the law!" only when it comes to laws they agree with. I assume you held the same opinion of DOMA, the Patriot Act, etc. Obama isn't king, you know, and congressional representatives of the people have the power to check him. Don't forget that voters took away control of Congress from the Dems in 2010.
Here's a good article that addresses the "it's the law!" cliche:
http://m.nationalreview.com/article/359652/opposing-obamacare-isnt-anarchy-jonah-goldberg
Here is MtnPeak argument
"They passed it without Republican input" therefore he believes. (He actually does in mind) because of that. It makes the law invalid. There were Republicans there, there just wasn't a majority. Right now, we're entering day 2 of the shut down. Republicans refuse to even bring the CR (Clean Resolution) up for a vote.
They keep saying. "Obama negotiates with Iran, but he won't negotiate with us" eerily sounding like MtnPeak. The problem it is now law. Any "negotiation" would be to strip or defund the law. Obama ran on this health care issue. Romney promised to repeal the law on the first day of office.
The American people knew exactly what they were getting when they vote for Obama. Both Florida and Ohio. States that went republican in the past, turned blue last election. In fact its getting harder for the Republicans to even win the white house. No Republican has even been President without winning Ohio.
This is nothing more then holding the american people hostage, impacting millions of people. For the sake of a petty "I don't like the law, so I'm going not pass this, destroy all these good things till I get my way" The problem is the republicans are under estimating Obama resolve on this. They will not be getting their way.
It's worth pointing out here that liberals are often militantly hostile to religion, unless that religion is Islam. Yes, there are always exceptions.
Also, regarding the moderators: yes they are good, but meanwhile this place is in ruins and most everyone has left. We're just here to watch the place smoulder.
Actually, that reminds me of a parable about the "foolish man who built his house upon the sand. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash."
You say it's "petty" to oppose this law? Sigh. I don't think you understand the opposition. This is a huge deal. Government takeover of 1/6 of the economy is not the same as voting on who the Ambassador to Iceland will be. This would be like he EU eventually taking over the healthcare for all of Europe. Hey, Germans, enjoy paying for Greece and Spain. If ever a fight was in order, this is it. Even if a deal is eventually struck that favors Dems, voters will see who fought to stop this.
You also need to understand that this law will hurt many, many more than a temporary partial non-essential government shutdown. I know you don't believe it, but at least recognize the view of the opposition.
I mean, I'm sorry the National Zoo will have to shut off the live panda cam this week, but I think the world will go on.
Also, it's worth noting that the House already passed bills funding all of the government but Obamacare. Obama already granted delays to the corporations who have been lobbying and to congressional staff (because it's not ready), but he refuses to give the rest of the country the same delay. There's only a shutdown because Obama insisted on this.
Before this became law. Insurance company's were able to drop you for pre existing conditions. Say you got sick, they would go through your file with a fine tooth comb if they found anything they could use. You would be left on your own. That is just one of the many examples that touts how popular this is.
You claim this law will hurt many more people. I ask you to provide examples. Back four years ago. When Sarah Palin was running for VP. She claimed this Health Care would have "Death Panels" just seven months ago. Michelle Batch man claimed this law would literally kill children and senior citizens.
Your side keeps saying this law will be the doom of us all. Yet you provided no examples, nothing your side said has come true, at all.
It's not just the national zoo that's impacted. Veterans returning home cannot file for disability till this claimed is resolved. Parks and museums would be closed. Roughly estimates eight hundred thousand government workers will not have a paycheck. Office for the government 3/4 are closing due to this shut down. That's not even the full list.
Yes. Obama extended a one year delay to the law for corporations to take time to get things in order. That doesn't mean "law is failure, repeal all of it." He can do that. Because he's the President and its his health care law. Honestly what does it matter that it was delayed one hour. What if any meaning does this have, at all.
The shut down is happening because the Republicans refuse to pass a bill. Voting on a clean resolution has nothing to do with Obamacare. In fact, it goes into effect without that bill being passed. Right now people are engaging in the exchange. What this is really about, is a borderline domestic terror threat aka (tea party) that refuses to pass something. (Like a dictator) till they get their way.
In the history of the government. Even when Bush was in office. There has never been a threat to not pass a bill to fund the government. That shows you how historically desperate these Tea Party thugs are. I regret to inform you. You are on the losing side of this battle. In fact a poll released by CNN, shows a majority of American People blame Republicans for the shut down.
It's amazing "Republicans say, we're listening to the American People" so much they're willing to shut down entire government. Then why when 90 percent of American People supported background checks at Gun Shows. They voted down the bill. Less then half of majority is complaining about Obamacare. Republicans are being very hypocritical
"I have no faith in the federal government to manage the healthcare industry"
You know, I can see that point. I too have concerns about privacy, the idea of care rationing, increased prices on medical devices and special exemptions given to government employees, corporations and unions. The thing is, I've watched all of those issues be abused by the PRIVATE industry. It seems like a pointless argument to dream up all these potential horrific situations that the federal government might one day commit. I mean, what's the alternative? What we already have. The private industry has done such a bang up job that a law like this was needed in the first place. I mean, why else are we discussing pre-existing conditions? You're worried about rationing, what about being dropped by your insurance company because you get cancer? You're worried about paying a little tax on a medical device, what about 2/3 of bankruptcies in this country being due to health care costs?
We've seen how the private industry has handled the situation when it comes to health care, and quite frankly what they already have done is terrifying. It's much more terrifying than any of the imagined horror scenarios you believe the government might do. And that to me speaks to what is so frustratingly unfair about the whole "debate". We're currently living in the hell that is private industry run health care, we get to try your experiment. But when people like me want to try our government run experiment, we aren't given that same chance. The closest we have is Medicare/Medicaid... and interestingly enough the overwhelming majority of people absolutely love their government coverage. It's why something like the public option was brilliant. Let the people decide who they want to trust. In your post you ask "Why do you want to force this one size fits all approach on the entire country?" I'd ask you the same question. Let's have real choice, rather than either a 100% private or 100% government. The most successful health care programs in other countries use this hybrid system.
"They decided to try to change healthcare for EVERYONE in an effort to one day have the government be the sole insurance provider for over 300 million Americans. Of course this will result in rationing, lower quality care, higher prices, etc."
This claim is simply absurd. First, that's a really large assumption about what the role of the Affordable Care Act is. If the goal is to change to a nationalized system, this bill that is a huge give away to corporations who control the health care system is in exactly the opposite direction. I can't tell if you're assuming that by giving corporations millions of new customers this will somehow demonstrate how poorly corporations run and cause people to clamor for government run health care instead, but based on the law itself it's just not true. Again, rationing already exists under corporate health care. Lower quality care? I should point you to the World Health Organization report that listed America as 37th in terms of health care, putting America slightly above Cuba and just behind Costa Rice. I shouldn't need to mention that obviously nationalized health care is already providing higher quality care than we receive. Finally higher prices? That same WHO report that shows us as 37th in terms of the health care provided also shows that we are FIRST when it comes to health care spending per capita. We have FAR and away the most expensive health care system in the world... all to bring you that 37th best quality of care. It isn't wise to declare what "will" happen, when so much evidence exists to the contrary. It reminds me a lot of when Republicans made up those fictional "death panels" that they claimed were in Obamacare... the same "death panels" that already exist, in the private system.
"And most especially the fact that we would be saddling future generations with an unthinkable amount of debt."
That's somewhat bothersome. First, you started it by saying "the fact" when it's anything but. This has been fact checked by many organizations and it simply isn't true. The CBO is a non-partisan group whose sole job is to analyze the bills in Congress to determine these sorts of issues. They have said time and time again that Obamacare as it stands will actually reduce the deficit. It's a special irony to the latest political developments. Repealing Obamacare has not only cost a lot in terms of wasted tax dollars, it will actually increase the deficit. Here's a link to a recent fact check via CNN.
What's especially bothersome about this is the fact that the largest chunk of the debt conservatives are so worried about passing along to their children actually stem from their own policies. Sure there's small stuff, like shutting down the government. The shutdown in the 90s cost our nations billions of dollars, and every day this shut down goes on our bill goes up. There's all of the tax dollars wasted on symbolic votes, like to repeal Obamacare. But most importantly, there's the military budget. The budget that's so large it consumes over half of every dollar in federal taxes. Our military is already larger than the next 14 nations combined. And yet it's the ONLY area of the government that conservatives absolutely refuse to cut. Why are Republicans so insistent on cutting drops in the bucket like food stamps for the elderly, children and veterans (they make up 85% of food stamp recipients after all) but refuse to cut even a dime from a beast that's consuming more than half of all of our taxes? When Clinton left America with a surplus going into the 2000s, it was Bush and a Republican controlled Congress that left us in a huge financial hole. They started not one, but two wars. And for the first time in American history they started war without raising taxes. Instead they lowered taxes on the rich. According to Politifact, during President George W. Bush's first term federal spending increased at a rate of 33%, in his second term spending rose another 34%. Under Obama federal spending increased 11.2%. Not bad considering Obama entered into and ended a recession and had two unfunded wars to pay for. That means federal spending rose three times faster under Bush and his mostly Republican Congress than it has under Obama. Also notice in that link how President Obama has already added more jobs during his years on the job than were added under President Bush during both of his terms, and that number is growing. So please forgive us if we're all extremely tired of hearing Republicans lecture us all on the dangers of the debt and the deficit. Start with the bloated military budget and THEN get back to us.
You keep mentioning that Democrats, or Obama, received no input from Republicans over things like the health care law. I know that this is a common talking point on conservative media. But it simply is not the case. First where did the public option go? That was President Obama's original law, but due to Republicans in Congress it was stripped out. The entire basis for the law was actually started by a conservative think tank in the 80s under Bush Sr. The individual mandate was thought up as an alternative to a fear of nationalized healthcare. It's built around the very idea that individuals should be responsible for their own care, rather than risking not having insurance and passing those expensive medical bills onto the rest of us. Various Republican candidates promoted the issue and it garnered extensive and widespread support and even was even proudly mentioned as the federal solution after Romneycare's success... until President Obama mentioned it. And just like every other Republican idea that Obama mentions, suddenly it became some form of toxic socialism from Europe. The same thing happened with Cap and Trade, a free market solution proposed several decades ago by Republicans.
Then there's the anecdotal story about your brother seeing his hours cut back due to Obamacare. No serious economist backs this claim, quite simply the data does not back up these anecdotal stories. There's a lovely fact check here showing that actually since Obamacare passed 87% of new jobs were Full Time jobs. For sure there are some companies who have made changes in regards to this, but it's a tiny amount of the actual labor force. It's another example of letting the media reporting exaggerate a problem that doesn't exist. And further, long before Obama ever got into office I personally worked for a huge company who deliberately stopped hiring full time people in order to avoid giving them insurance along with other benefits. During my entire 10 year stretch at that company, I was the only full time person who was hired. This wasn't due to Obamacare, this was due to corporate greed. The same as any companies trying to dodge that same bullet now. Though it does make me wonder, even if you believed the exaggerated stories about companies slashing hours to avoid paying their employees insurance... why exactly do you want these companies controlling your health care? It's the perfect example of companies putting profits over people and rationing their health care. The thing I don't understand is that every conservative seems to hate the idea of the government doing this, but when a corporation does far worse it's fine.
There are simply so many of your claims I'd love to get to, but I think I've gone on more than long enough. It reminds me a lot of Fox News, the more of your comments I read the more misinformed I became. It's not too surprising since most of the links you provided came not from fact checkers or non-biased sources but instead came from GOP websites or right wing blogs. I know it's tempting to only read the news sites that tell you what you want to hear and confirm what you already believe, but since I'm assuming you vote please take a small amount of time out of your day to at least read the news to see the reality that the rest of us actually live in.
I would say it's the other way around: Liberals are largely tolerant of religions, if not religious themselves, with a few exceptions. Even in the Democrat primaries, an atheist wouldn't stand a chance.
The LA Times had a wonderful piece about what Abraham Lincoln had to say. From February 1860.
"Your purpose, then, plainly stated, is that you will destroy the Government, unless you be allowed to construe and enforce the Constitution as you please, on all points in dispute between you and us. You will rule or ruin in all events. [...]
Under all these circumstances, do you really feel yourselves justified to break up this Government unless such a court decision as yours is, shall be at once submitted to as a conclusive and final rule of political action?
But you will not abide the election of a Republican president! In that supposed event, you say, you will destroy the Union; and then, you say, the great crime of having destroyed it will be upon us! That is cool. A highwayman holds a pistol to my ear, and mutters through his teeth, "Stand and deliver, or I shall kill you, and then you will be a murderer!" [...]
A few words now to Republicans. It is exceedingly desirable that all parts of this great Confederacy shall be at peace, and in harmony, one with another. Let us Republicans do our part to have it so. Even though much provoked, let us do nothing through passion and ill temper. "
Here is what some of the biggest newspapers had to say about the shut down.
The Wall Street Journal:
We support the Republican effort to get the best deal they can, especially in the face of Mr. Obama's cynicism. But sooner or later the GOP will have to fund the government and raise the debt ceiling that expires two weeks from now. Republicans will have made their point about fighting hard on principle while noting that to achieve more on ObamaCare they'll need more Senate Republicans after 2014 and a GOP President after 2016. Unlike much of what you hear these days out of Washington, this has the added advantage of being true.
USA Today:
In this case, however, the "they're all bums" reaction is off-base. This shutdown, the first in 17 years, isn't the result of two parties acting equally irresponsibly. It is the product of an increasingly radicalized Republican Party, controlled by a disaffected base that demands legislative hostage-taking in an effort to get what it has not been able to attain by the usual means: winning elections
New York Times:
By Tuesday morning, the leadership failure of Speaker John Boehner was complete. In encouraging the impossible quest of House Republicans to dismantle health care reform, he pushed the country into a government shutdown that will now begin to take a grievous economic toll.
Washington Post:
Americans' respect for their Congress has, sad to say, diminished in recent years. But citizens still expect a minimal level of competence and responsibility: Pay the bills and try not to embarrass us in front of the world.
By those minimal standards, this Congress is failing. More specifically, the Republican leaders of the House of Representatives are failing. They should fulfill their basic duties to the American people or make way for legislators who will.
Chicago Tribune:
We're debt hawks. The unconscionable failure of Democrats and Republicans to deal with the growth of entitlement spending that has fueled the nearly $17 trillion in federal debt creates its own economic peril. The most frustrating thing is that a resolution of this impasse almost certainly won't deal with that entitlement crisis.
LA Times:
The GOP's clear objective is to dismantle the act, not to improve it — and the single-minded focus on that goal is what has led to the partial government shutdown that began Tuesday. Democrats can hardly be blamed for refusing to bargain over how to sabotage the law before it fully takes effect.
Chicago Sun-Times:
The federal government is partially shut down because an extreme faction of House Republicans is using its leverage to try to derail the Affordable Care Act, also known as Obamacare.
New York Daily News:
The elderly veterans who stormed the closed World War II Memorial in Washington on Tuesday showed more class, sense and spine than all of the Republicans who led Congress into shutting down the federal government.
New York Post:
Today the ObamaCare health exchanges go up. Meanwhile, the federal government appears to be shutting down. Once again, Washington’s got it completely backward.
We’ve long been skeptical of the defunding strategy, for one reason: Republicans don’t have the votes in the Senate
Denver Post:
Incredibly, Republican hard-liners have triggered a shutdown in pursuit of a hopeless quest to delay or even defund the Affordable Care Act.
This is a battle Republicans cannot win.
And there's this from James Fellows at the Atlantic.
Your False-Equivalence Guide to the Days Ahead
"As a matter of journalism, any story that presents the disagreements as a "standoff," a "showdown," a "failure of leadership," a sign of "partisan gridlock," or any of the other usual terms for political disagreement, represents a failure of journalism and an inability to see or describe what is going on... This isn't "gridlock." It is a ferocious struggle within one party, between its traditionalists and its radical factions, with results that unfortunately can harm all the rest of us — and, should there be a debt default, could harm the rest of the world too."
I actually did prefer when Republicans were just fighting over the budget. At least then, they were not trying to destroy the government in the process. These Tea Party members could watch Congress burn, for all they care. They have no respect for how the government functions as a body.
I must place some of the blame directly on Fox News. If they were not always spreading lies and misinformation. This extreme faction might not have risen through the ranks and elected into office. Fox News so desperate to rip the Dems, they created indirectly another party so extreme they would hurt Wall Street interest and even big corporations. (Something the Republicans always stood for)
As bad as they are and what Republicans stand for. At least they didn't want to tear the government down. I consider the Tea Party Domestic Terrorists. They are inflicting the greatest harm. In front of the entire world we are an embarrassing waiting game.
Obama will not reverse his signature health care law. House Speaker refuses to bring the bill to the floor. As bad as I want the Republicans look, I think its not safe to keep going at this pace. Not saying Obama will cave that will not happen. So House MUST approve the bill or they will destroy America cemented in its extreme hatred over this health care act.
I was going to go through and make my own arguments but since fusedmass has done a pretty good job and I may not be coming back to this forum after this post, here's a few last words:
Some notes on what the ACA actually does, and how it will affect you: http://www.doctoroz.com/videos/affordable-care-act-what-you-need-to-know
Also, reality has a liberal bias.
I'd comment, but then I'd have to click that link and read something to understand what you're saying, and then formulate a response. The barrier to entry in terms of participation in this conversation is WAY too high, that kind of bar would require reading, thinking, and writing. What do you think I am, NOT an American?!
I'm just going to click the thumb button that correlates to whatever prejudice I brought with me into the thread.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.
All politicians are wankers.
It would almost be fun to watch the train wreck that is the current Republican party go through these very public temper tantrums if it didn't involve taking the US economy hostage along with any chance of a functional government. I think perhaps the biggest threat is the precedent it sets for the future. It's just the Republicans behaving this poorly now, but what about a little further down the road should a Republican ever be elected (or more likely elected through redistricting and voter suppression) back into Presidency. We didn't need another filibuster to allow minority parties to completely bog down our entire government process, but I'll bet you this sort of hostage taking becomes the new political normal. From one manufactured crisis to the next it seems.
Fox News certainly contributed to this horrible mess. I almost feel bad for Republicans who are forced to go to these ridiculous extremes in order to be elected in the primaries by pandering to a delusional base fed a fact-free diet from a number of right wing talking points. If you say something even remotely rational, like say believing in the science behind global warming, your Republican political career is over. And to be fair, it's got to be difficult to run against Obama. He's run a better war on terror, deported more people, launched more drones, drilled for more oil, done a better job with the economy, taxes remain at historic lows, government spending is being reduced, shut down more marijuana shops... I mean what really can they get him on? His biggest achievement is the health care law based around the individual mandate that was a Republican plan for decades. Just imagine trying to run as a Republican today. If you're remotely rational you come across sounding like Obama and you'll be eaten alive in those primaries.
The only upside to this debacle is that Obama desperately needs a functional Congress, and up until this government shutdown I had a very dim view of those prospects in 2014. The midterm elections always have a terrible turn out, and the fewer voters the worse it is for Democrats. But now, it's almost as if the Republicans are just handing the next election over to the Democrats. Then again I never under estimate the ability of American voters to completely forget about basic details about what happened only months earlier and for small groups of dedicated Republicans to constantly vote against their own self-interests.
I don't doubt that you're sincere, but you have your facts wrong.
Moderate Senate Dems balked, and that's why there was no public option. Democrats controlled the Senate, House and the Presidency. To blame Republicans for something not getting passed in that situation is worse than just silly partisan spin... it's flat out wrong.
The 2000-page law was crafted through back room deals, against the will of the people, and voted on without those voting on it even reading the whole thing. It moves us closer to nationalized health care, which is the liberals' goal.
No wonder the country wants this thing gutted or totally repealed. I'm confident it will be reversed, but it will take several election cycles. Don't underestimate the committed opposition to government takeover of healthcare in this country.
2014 will likely be a bad year for Dems, but how bad is the question. Hillary is very beatable in 2016, and I'd love to see someone like Rand Paul elected. At least we'd have someone who respects the Constitution in there.
If you are tired of the same old news media and "comedy" shows that exist largely as an echo chamber arm of the Democrat Party, demonizing political opposition and making excuse after excuse for Obama, you should check out http://www.reason.com
They have had a lot of great, intelligent coverage of Obamacare. Here's a recent roundup of analysis:
What Obamacare Will Do For (Or To) You
Conservative and libertarian health policy experts weigh in:
http://reason.com/archives/2013/10/01/what-should-we-expect-from-obamacare
And, just for fun, here's a little goof on Obama admin's claim that Obamacare should be likened to Apple:
No offense to MtnPeak. He seems to be living on a different planet. It's like we're having two seperate conversations. In mine, The Republicans refused to pass a clean resolution to fund the government. Unless Dems Negotiated with Republican to strip away funding from Obamacare. In his point of view, Harry Reid (Dem Majoroity leader) shut the government down and we have a duty to stop millions of Americans from having affordable health care insurance.
Even though. I linked a quote from a Republican directly, complaining that hes being disrespected and he doesn't even know what he wants out of the shut down. Proves how clueless these people really are. They tried to shut it down to stop Obamacare. That failed. What exactly is there objective now, other then holding hundreds of millions of Americans hostage..because they feel disrespected.
This quote says everything about the Republican shut down, that you need to know.
Marlin Stutzman shutdown
House Republicans are continuing to play hardball in negotiations over the spending bill that precipitated the government shutdown on Oct. 1, apparently out of fear that compromise would weaken their power.
"We're not going to be disrespected," Rep. Marlin Stutzman (R-Ind.) told The Washington Examiner. "We have to get something out of this. And I don't know what that even is."
The GOP spent much of Wednesday blaming President Barack Obama and the Democrats for the effects of the shutdown, which led to the furlough of 800,000 workers and the closure of numerous government services. They failed to mention that the spending bill didn't pass because they loaded the bill with restrictions on the Affordable Care Act, a law that passed in 2010 and was found constitutional by the Supreme Court earlier this year.
In an effort to end the shutdown, Democrats are seeking the passage of a "clean" continuing resolution to fund the government while further negotiations on the budget take place. Most, if not all, Democrats would vote for it, and enough Republicans are publicly now on board to pass it.
At the time of this writing, however, such a vote is still being thwarted by the GOP leadership.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/03/marlin-stutzman-government-shutdown_n_4034123.html?utm_hp_ref=politics
Certainly sincere, but my facts are pretty much spot on. You can't really pick and choose these things to fit a limited and biased argument. Interestingly I pretty much disassembled a multitude of your points and I actually used fact checkers to do so. Your rebuttal ignored all but a few minor issues that you think are wrong. I would liked more acknowledgement to the fact that your previous posts contained so many factual errors and mistakes, instead of immediately trying to reset the score. Up until this point, you have been the furthest thing from any sort of unbiased dealer of facts. That said...
Moderate Democrats balked at the public option? This implies that Republicans were in agreement with it. It's completely disingenuous to try and blame the entire Democratic party because a few members had disagreement. In fact, in my opinion that's one of the strengths of the Democratic party. They care more about voting for the issues, rather than catering to partisan politics. In order for your statement to be true, there would have to be some Republicans in favor of the common sense public option for the Democrats to have single handedly killed the public option. But sadly every single Republican and a handful of Democrats sealed it's fate, at least for now. The overwhelming majority of those against the idea were Republican. So if your point was simply that a small fraction of the Democratic party didn't not vote blindly based on party, this is true. However as I said previously the overwhelming majority of Republicans against the idea is why that better solution did not happen. When you have forty Republicans all voting along partisan lines it just doesn't make sense to ignore that obstruction simply because a few Democrats might not have gone along with the idea. Say you had a group of marbles, 40 of them green and 1 or 2 of them purple. Would you then call that group of marbles purple? Of course not. It works the same here. It's so funny with Republicans literally running their party on obstruction, yet every time they obstruct something successfully they immediately try to point to one or two Democrats. Take some responsibility for those actions.
Further this is always an interesting position taken by Republicans. Let's tackle the Senate during that period which you claim "Democrats controlled". This would be true if the filibuster wasn't abused in the way it is today. Sadly now in order to pass legislation through the Senate you need to accomplish a full 60 votes. During this period the Democrats only controlled 58 seats, not enough to effectively pass legislation when the entire Republican party votes unanimously along party lines. During this period of control, to pass any bill past Republican obstruction it would have required all Democrats in the Senate voting unanimously AND convincing two Independents. Democrats had the majority, but with the filibuster abuse it was far from control.
Of course the law was passed through back room deals. That's how most laws in this country are passed, like it or not. The way that Republicans suddenly obsess over this concept is laughable. How do you think Halliburton got all that support? Through an open and honest process? Come on now. Just like every other issue, it wasn't an issue until Obama became President. With the stranglehold that the private industry has over our nations health care, of course they wouldn't just allow politicians to come along and change things. Perhaps if Republicans had been willing to compromise and work together in Congress, but sadly they were more intent on labeling a massive give away to private industry corporations as socialism and a "government take over" both of which are completely false but certainly cater to their base. Even after several meetings with Obama and Congressional Democrats on the issue and even after Obama personally inserted several of their ideas into the law itself after these meetings Republicans still obstructed the law at any cost. I already mentioned the incredible compromise of removing the public option, but there was also a large focus on tort reform. A HUGE Republican pet project for years to protect corporations from the little guys. As Mitch McConnell said their goal was focused on making Obama a one term President, rather than working together to come to any sort of compromise.
You again say it moves us closer to nationalized health care, claiming it's the liberals goal. But as I stated previously, that's not the law we have. The individual mandate requires every citizen to enroll with an insurance company, these are private insurance companies. Not nationalized health care by any means. It's actually and factually completely the opposite. Trust me, I've tried and tried to get some sort of government insurance for years. As I stated before you currently get to live your dream of participating in the nightmare that is the private industry health care system. I don't get the option to live my dream of participating in the lower costs and better care of nationalized health care. I wish you were right, but that's simply not what the law does.
Then you claim the country wants the entire thing gutted or totally repealed. That's misrepresents the country. Even John McCain admits this country went to the polls and Republicans made this law the central issue in their case to the American people. Obama was re-elected with over 5 million votes to spare. You would be correct in stating that conservatives want the law gutted or repealed, but not by suggesting the "country" does. Again the opposite actually happens to be the case. Most of those unhappy with law are folks like myself who believe that it simply doesn't go far enough. We don't want it repealed or gutted, we want it expanded. See, I actually want to put the nationalized health care you think is in there... in there for real. One of the most interesting things about conservatives is how much they hate the name Obamacare but actually love what's in the law. Recent polling already showed that conservatives supported the law 8% more if you called it the Affordable Care Act rather than Obamacare. This has more to do with blind political partisanship than it has do with any sort of fears about a government take over of health care. Remember that the overwhelming majority of the Tea Party and the Republicans who feel this way are white seniors... who depend on government health care. As the wonderful Tea Party supports like to say "Keep your government hands off my Medicare!". They love government health care, they just don't want a black Democrat to have any part of it.
We'll see about 2014. Typically turn out for midterms are very low, and the lower the voter turn out the better it is for Republicans. As most Americans vote Democrat, Republicans find their best results when they can get their base into a frenzy while no one else shows up at the polls. I would've agreed with you about their odds a few months ago. But thanks to the spectacle that is the Republican party I'm not so sure. This whole government shut down has proven to be very unpopular and the polling shows it's given Democrats the largest lead before a midterm election ever. The only issue I see is that Americans will probably forget by this time next year, and we'll see the usual low information voters lining up to vote in more Republicans.
I'm sure you believe Hillary is "very beatable", but much like many of your beliefs you've posted it simply does not make it so. I'll put it this way. I'm happier with the odds on that election than I have been for the last two. And don't even get me started on Rand Paul. He's not as racist as his father, that's a plus. He's got a long way to go with women, the poor and minorities. He's a science denier and he's had many issues following the Constitution... for example he recently had this to say about the Affordable Care Act.
"Just because a couple people on the Supreme Court declare something to be 'constitutional' does not make it so"
Actually, that's exactly how it works
Again I would like to stress not to rely so much on the "information" you're gathering from those right wing corners or our world. They've made a huge billion dollar industry of telling you exactly what you want to hear. You're beginning to sound like Fox News and the right wing media predicting the land slide win for Mitt Romney. I just want to save you the agony of waking up after another election to find out that everything you thought you knew about what the American people wanted was completely and totally wrong.
And with that said, I'm out. Unfortunately I have better things to do. Why, you ask? Well it's because we're participating in a well known quirk about the human mind. People, especially those who are very partisan in their beliefs as you are, tend to respond to facts that challenge their beliefs not by changing their beliefs but by increasing the strength of their original belief. They did a study over WMDs in Iraq. They asked conservatives if Iraq had these weapons and then showed them the evidence that Iraq did not have any WMDs. They then asked those same conservatives, now armed with the knowledge that Iraq did not have any WMDs, if Iraq had WMDs. They found that despite the evidence demonstrating they were wrong, they believed more strongly that Iraq did have WMDs with many concocting new theories that would validate their beliefs. That he moved the weapons, or had them destroyed for example. Here's an interesting article on this phenomenon called the Backfire Effect. I too don't doubt you're sincerity, however I do doubt the logic of continuing this "debate". The more I counter your claims and beliefs with evidence and fact checkers, the more strongly you'll continue to believe. So for now, good day sir. I shall see you in line come election day!
LOL say what you will about MtnPeak but come on... if nothing else his posts are worth a chuckle. Like this comment?
"If you are tired of the same old news media ... demonizing political opposition and making excuse after excuse for Obama"
From the conservatives who sent political ads for John McCain featuring Obama near airliners suggesting he was a terrorist, who still ask questions about his birth certificate, who think he's some sort of Kenyan muslim socialist... but it's the OTHER guys who are doing the demonizing.
Let's see what reality has to say about this claim... from Kantar Media/Campaign Media Analysis Group, which tracks political ad spending.
"70% of ads run by Democrats in the general election campaign for president have been POSITIVE in nature, while 73% of commercials run by Republicans were NEGATIVE"
But of course, I'm sure his post wasn't serious. It was just another attempt to demonstrate where he's fed his news, once again from conservative media.
It is without a doubt very amusing, how Republicans view the media. They call it the "Elite Liberal Media" because they expose the lies they have been flaunting. Media knows exactly who's fault it is. In fact, there was an open mic comment between Rand Paul and Minority Senate Leader Mitch. Here's what they said.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eziI4h3J0Eg
If that wasn't bad enough. The media is confronting the Republicans on their lies. This entire thing is clear to me. And I don't work in politics.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag5AMqve5ZU#t=409
Every day this goes on. The Republicans look worst and worst. They are getting hammered left and right. Not just by Dem. But in reality in General. The only network that isn't exposing their lies is Fox News (What a surprise)
MtnPeak, gives an inside look what Republicans really believe. It's scary and both amusing at the same time.
This got me thinking about how every conservative I've ever met or talked to gets their news exclusively from right wing news sources. Fox News, Breitbart, Reason. Yet, of all the liberals I know they get their news from the news organizations that are usually the most unbiased and reputable sources. Places like the New York Times, NPR or even the BBC. Very few seem to even watch MSNBC, and those who do typically do it after they've read the news from other outlets and seem to view it more as entertainment.
I guess it's no surprise why discussions like this always end the way they do. They've gotten so tired of reality constantly proving them wrong, that they've simply made their own news stations to constantly tell them only what they want to hear. They did a study that demonstrated conservatives were the only group to lose faith in science over the past 40 years. There has been a 25% drop amongst conservatives who trust in science, while moderates and liberals levels of trust remained the same.
The author had this to say, "It kind of began with the loss of Barry Goldwater and the construction of Fox News and all these [conservative] think tanks. The perception among conservatives is that they're at a disadvantage, a minority. It's not surprising that the conservative subculture would challenge what's viewed as the dominant knowledge production groups in society - science and the media."
No wonder we can't even agree on facts, they no longer believe in science. For them it's all about "truthiness".
"Truthiness is a quality characterizing a "truth" that a person making an argument or assertion claims to know intuitively "from the gut" or because it "feels right" without regard to evidence, logic, intellectual examination, or facts."
To be honest. I am tired, of Senators that we elect for the people, by the people. Going to Congress and causing harm to the exact same people. They promised to protect. I live in Texas. Ted Cruz said "People don't work for Politicians, Politicians work for the people" however roughly estimated eight hundred thousand people in Congress are laid out.
He is the leading force behind the shut down. Standing for 21 hours before the CR(Clean Resolution Vote) now that government has passed the deadline. He has no exit stragery other then to "get something out of it". You don't get something out of it for doing your job. A CR has nothing to do with Obamacare.
Its used as leverage to get what you want. We are cemented in Gridlock. The freshman Senator from Texas, in my humble point of view. Is not doing what the people elected him to do. That's why with the help of Move on. I started a petition on Move On. To recall Ted Cruz. Even if it doesn't work. At least an effort is being made.
If you feel so encouraged. then please sign here. As Obama once said. Change doesn't happen from washing inside out. Change comes from the people to Washington.
http://petitions.moveon.org/sign/recall-senator-ted-cruz-1
Sounds like even crazy ol' anti-tax GOP strategist Grover Norquist wants him gone. Grover just said "He pushed House Republicans into traffic and wandered away" and plenty more about Cruz.
And you'd think rallying behind a Canadian would've been a winner for the GOP. Still curious why the GOP doesn't seem nearly as obsessed with his birth certificate... at least Obama's was actually from America.
I'm with you on your petition, but I'm not interested in signing up with MoveOn. I just spent the past six months trying to close out those sorts of things after constantly being overwhelmed in my inbox and mailbox. Sign up for one and before you know it you've got like sixteen different groups sending your newsletters and constant requests for $3 or $5. And then there's what they do with your information when they have it...
I'm interpreting the laws for Texas. 19 states you can recall senators. They claim in Texas, you cannot recall a Senator. However, there are two ways around this. You could start a petition draft under another state and deliver it to Texas. Or the House can do it with two third of the vote.
Since Ted Cruz pretty much stood for 21 hours on the Senate floor. Then walked away while the battle went on. Perhaps I should change my petition to asking the House to remove him. Gaining enough signatures from Texans in the process. At least it raises awareness.
Cruz not entirety to blame. The GOP went along with his speech. Those tea party extreme fanatics holding America hostage. I'd like to say. He doesn't speak for the rest of Texas.
I have something I know you guys will like. Take a look at what the official telephone hotline number for the disastrous Obamacare spells out:
Language warning.
http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/oct/3/naughty-number-obamacare-hotlines-vulgar-suggestio/
Absolutely classic. And truthful about what the law does.
Ted Cruz is a hero. He speaks for me and millions of others. It is refreshing to see a conservative politician with conviction doing what he was elected to do. That's right. He was elected to fight Obamacare every step of the way, and bless him for following through. I don't suppose any of you here were too bothered when Obamacare was being forced through by Pelosi and Reid (Obama couldn't be bothered with the legislative details, if you'll remember... I think he had some celebrity worship music concerts and golf to attend to) against the country's wishes. I love Ted Cruz because he is smarter than all of the Democrat Party combined and doesn't get intimidated or back down in the face of the demonization heaped on him by the Obama-supporting news media. If the Obama propaganda MSNBC channel hosts are getting their panties in a bunch over Cruz, that means he's doing something right!
Actually he is not. I dislike him so much. That I not only started that petition. I called my local newspaper today and explained the situation to them. I asked if they would be interested in a story. You know what. They are having a reporter call me tomorrow and I'm going there to have my picture taken. That's right. I'm going to be in my local newspaper in Texas, speaking against Ted Cruz.
When your done with that. Obama has laid out a nice speech today. I seriously suggest you watch both videos in full length, then kindly respond.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_yhwXFfvDk
Norquist isn't a strategist. He's an open borders and tax reform activist who makes candidates sign his pledge. His going after Cruz will only strengthen Cruz's standing among the base who votes in midterms.
And please make as many Moveon petitions as you can. Being hated and feared by Moveon.org types is the best help Cruz could get among Republican voters. The only people moved by that stuff are partisan far left-wing people who would never vote for him anyway. If you really want to do damage to Cruz, have an anti-conservative site like that endorse him.
The number is 1-800-318-2596.
3(DEF)
1(no character)
8(TUV)
2(ABC)
5(JKL)
9(WYZ)
6(MNO)
Usually when writing "words" in phone numbers, people don't use the junk character 1(Just call 1-800-F1UCK-YO doesn't have much of a ring to it), and I've never seen "Yo" used to replace "You", but sure I guess?
It's a really dumb stretch, honestly.
He isn't feared. That's the problem you seriously don't understand. He urged Republicans "Fight Obamacare, even though it passed both the House and Senate, upheld by the Supreme Court. Stay strong, hold Americans Hostage and we will win" guess what. Obamacare is still here regardless.
Now Republicans have no chips to bargain with at all. They keep saying, "we want to negoiate on a law that passed 5 years ago" Rand Paul was caught on live mic spilling his guts about "he thinks they are going to win" I don't know what planet you are living on. It certainty isn't this one.
No one fears Ted Cruz. We think he's a complete wacko Tea Party extremist who rather make thousands of programs and millions of Americans suffer like a spoiled little child, acting like a dictator simply because he didn't get his way. To call him a clown. Would be an insult. To clowns.
Ok, I didn't realize you started the petition. Well, that's your right.
Here's what I really think: many Democrats who otherwise wouldn't want the national government assuming so much control over our healthcare only feel inclined to want to defend Obamacare for partisan reasons. If you called it BushCare they'd say HECK NO. They listen to Daily Show and parrot the trendy liberal lines. Still, the law is less popular than you might think among Democrat voters. This thing is going to go down because Democrat voters will increasingly oppose it.
When you're losing your job/work hours and insurance plan and seeing other people get subsidies without having to verify their income, when you're paying more for insurance as a result of Obamacare which is really one big tax according to the Supreme Court, and to say nothing of quality and availability of care, it won't matter how the Daily Show mocks this or that politician. The Democrats are hoping to get as many people hooked on the subsidy as they can, and if enough don't sign up then it won't work. It's kind of sad how they lie to sell it.
Don't look now, but you may have another Cruz on your hands. Some people think his father should run for the other seat from Texas. Wouldn't that be great? It's not hard to see where Ted gets it from. The 80-year-old Rafael can sure work the crowd:
Seriously MtnPeak.
I don't know whats wrong with you. You Republicans chest pound that you want to save money. It's costing 33 million dollars a day for the government shut down. How about that you want more money to bring down our debt. You would remove tax on medical devices for big corporations. The fact you believe Ted Cruz a freshman Senator is some modern day hero. Makes me seriously wonder about you.
If you haven't noticed. Most Americans blame Republicans for this mess. They are holding hostage programs that usually get passed, to get their way. This is a five year fight. They seriously need to look at the millions of American people and programs. It's a shock to me the government hasn't yet been overthrown by the people, considering they cannot even do their job.