Good post. A more rational way of explaining my actual thoughts. There's a difference between a plot hole and just not having every detail laid out to you on a platter.
Great. Another contrarian who likes to put himself up on a pedestal to talk down to the rest of the fanbase he finds so beneath him.
IN… more HARM'S WAY had its strengths, but it also had its flaws, and as consumers we're entitled to comment on them. No matter how you want to justify it, the lazy use of most of the 400 DAYS characters was very disappointing in the context of the story. Whether or not they're "plot holes" is a whole other topic, but this kind of dismissive attitude doesn't help matters.
Yea but atleast I am admitting my ignorance and apologizing for being a dumbass a lot of people would just edit the conversation out and write something completely different.
Yeah I didn't understand what anyone was talking about when they said there were plot holes. I know what they were but I couldn't find any such "plot hole" in the latest episode and no one gave any specific example of one.
Same as saying why it is important to know Lilly was in the Air Force, or her dad was in the Military, or that Kenny was a fisherman.
It also provides a universe that is alive. If we know when she died, that means that we will be able to know if Carver already knew about her death or didn't know about her death and ignored it, which doesn't make sense why he would wonder where Luke is in Episode Two yet not care where Nick's mom is. If someone like Regi, Shel/Becca, Vince, or anyone else didn't know she was dead, they didn't seem concerned. That is why it is important to know when.
I'll admit, I'm not sure why I said Alvin killed George during the groups escape.
Why exactly is it SO important for us to know when Nick lost his mom? Her death adds relevance to his character but not to the overall story.
Yeah I didn't understand what anyone was talking about when they said there were plot holes. I know what they were but I couldn't find any such "plot hole" in the latest episode and no one gave any specific example of one.
I would just like to add that your LOTR plot hole example is not in fact a plot hole. Flying right into Mordor would have been super obvious and Sauron would have had the Nazgul tear them to pieces/ moved his forces to defend the mountain.
If you bring up that Carver killed Walter when talking to Bonnie, she counters by pointing out that "Alvin killed George when he escaped. He may not have meant to, but George died all the same."
If you bring up that Carver killed Walter when talking to Bonnie, she counters by pointing out that "Alvin killed George when he escaped. He may not have meant to, but George died all the same."
Does it really matter at all in the grand scheme of things? Not really.
I don't get why these details bother people. You never found out the specifics of what Alvin did in the past. So what? Its not like Telltale is obligated to give you this information.
I would just like to add that your LOTR plot hole example is not in fact a plot hole. Flying right into Mordor would have been super obvious… more and Sauron would have had the Nazgul tear them to pieces/ moved his forces to defend the mountain.
JUST SAYING.
So what? What if I want to know more? What if I'm interested in it? What if I want to immerse myself further into the story?
I'm not able to now. I've said this in a previous thread: these things can be fixed through more conversations in walking areas. I want to investigate, but I can't ask more than one question to each person (a question that I don't even pick), that is if they let me talk to them in the first place.
Does it really matter at all in the grand scheme of things? Not really.
I don't get why these details bother people. You never found ou… moret the specifics of what Alvin did in the past. So what? Its not like Telltale is obligated to give you this information.
Man, you sound like such a nice guy. It's great to see this Community still has people like you. Thaaanks :) You're awesome.
We're friends. No pinky swear though, hehe.
Frodo and Sam would OBVIOUSLY suffocate that high up in the atmosphere because of oxygen deprivation. That's not even taking into consideration that the air around Mordor is probably filled with smoke/ash from the volcano.
Lol totally joking, I have no clue. I think everyone would find the plan too risky overall though, because if Sauron were to somehow find them they would be pretty well screwed.
The eagles could probably fly high enough to not get within Saurons's eyesight, ascend down once they get below the volcano and drop it.
Or am I thinking way too deep into this?
Lilly being in the Air Force and Kenny being a fisherman are occupations, and it tells us who they were and what they did before the apocalypse. It adds to their character. Does it matter WHEN they got there jobs?
Also, if Carver didn't acknowledge Nick's mom's presence at the end of Episode Two, then isn't it safe to imply that he doesn't know her, and everything that Luke and Nick explained in Episode One happened before they met Carver?
Same as saying why it is important to know Lilly was in the Air Force, or her dad was in the Military, or that Kenny was a fisherman.
I… moret also provides a universe that is alive. If we know when she died, that means that we will be able to know if Carver already knew about her death or didn't know about her death and ignored it, which doesn't make sense why he would wonder where Luke is in Episode Two yet not care where Nick's mom is. If someone like Regi, Shel/Becca, Vince, or anyone else didn't know she was dead, they didn't seem concerned. That is why it is important to know when.
So what? What if I want to know more? What if I'm interested in it? What if I want to immerse myself further into the story?
I'm not… more able to now. I've said this in a previous thread: these things can be fixed through more conversations in walking areas. I want to investigate, but I can't ask more than one question to each person (a question that I don't even pick), that is if they let me talk to them in the first place.
BUT it still doesn't excuse it. I only have a 1/4 chance of getting that statement and an even lesser chance of choosing the right option in the right scene. It would make more sense if I could find out more about it on my own time, like when Kenny asked me to walk around and find weaknesses; I could have talked to Rebecca about that and she might have known, but I couldn't.
Frodo and Sam would OBVIOUSLY suffocate that high up in the atmosphere because of oxygen deprivation. That's not even taking into considerat… moreion that the air around Mordor is probably filled with smoke/ash from the volcano.
Lol totally joking, I have no clue. I think everyone would find the plan too risky overall though, because if Sauron were to somehow find them they would be pretty well screwed.
Frodo and Sam would OBVIOUSLY suffocate that high up in the atmosphere because of oxygen deprivation. That's not even taking into considerat… moreion that the air around Mordor is probably filled with smoke/ash from the volcano.
Lol totally joking, I have no clue. I think everyone would find the plan too risky overall though, because if Sauron were to somehow find them they would be pretty well screwed.
It doesn't matter if you want to know more. Telltale isn't obligated to tell you, especially since it doesn't even have anything to do with the plot. I personally would like to know more as well, but criticizing Telltale for not telling us is not a legitimate criticism.
And like Jon said, Alvin was still a well written character.
So what? What if I want to know more? What if I'm interested in it? What if I want to immerse myself further into the story?
I'm not… more able to now. I've said this in a previous thread: these things can be fixed through more conversations in walking areas. I want to investigate, but I can't ask more than one question to each person (a question that I don't even pick), that is if they let me talk to them in the first place.
Yeah, I expected the downvotes. This kind of person is legion on the internet, and IMO, they're far worse than the most obnoxious troll.
Downvoting me doesn't prove whether I'm right or wrong, it just proves you're too insecure (or lazy) to articulate an opinion beyond a click of the mouse.
Great. Another contrarian who likes to put himself up on a pedestal to talk down to the rest of the fanbase he finds so beneath him.
IN… more HARM'S WAY had its strengths, but it also had its flaws, and as consumers we're entitled to comment on them. No matter how you want to justify it, the lazy use of most of the 400 DAYS characters was very disappointing in the context of the story. Whether or not they're "plot holes" is a whole other topic, but this kind of dismissive attitude doesn't help matters.
We are again assuming. We shouldn't assume. If we were given the information in the first place, we wouldn't have to assume anything.
As I said, I don't want my readers assuming anything; I want it either explained or purposefully left open ended for the plot. This situation is neither of those.
Lilly being in the Air Force and Kenny being a fisherman are occupations, and it tells us who they were and what they did before the apocaly… morepse. It adds to their character. Does it matter WHEN they got there jobs?
Also, if Carver didn't acknowledge Nick's mom's presence at the end of Episode Two, then isn't it safe to imply that he doesn't know her, and everything that Luke and Nick explained in Episode One happened before they met Carver?
Yeah, I expected the downvotes. This kind of person is legion on the internet, and IMO, they're far worse than the most obnoxious troll.
… more
Downvoting me doesn't prove whether I'm right or wrong, it just proves you're too insecure (or lazy) to articulate an opinion beyond a click of the mouse.
Yeah, I expected the downvotes. This kind of person is legion on the internet, and IMO, they're far worse than the most obnoxious troll.
… more
Downvoting me doesn't prove whether I'm right or wrong, it just proves you're too insecure (or lazy) to articulate an opinion beyond a click of the mouse.
Your knowledge of narrative and what constitutes as a plothole is so great that you had to copy and paste the Wikipedia definition of plotholes. Sadly you failed to mention that plotholes can also present when there are inconsistencies in a character's motivations, objectives and general characterisation. Not to mention oversights that defy narrative logic.
Examples of the above would be when Rebecca reunites with Reggie and he enquires about the whereabouts of carlos, Pete and Nick if Nick dies in episode 2 but he fails to enquire about Alvin even if Alvin is killed in episode 2 neither does Rebecca mention him. Then there is the fact that Sarah came from Carver's camp and she should be the one warning Clem to do her work and to keep quiet when Carver is talking not the other way around since she would know how dangerous he is and have a better idea of what he's capable of yet she persists to talk whilst Carver is talking even after being warned by Clem, undermining this tyrant. The same girl that was hiding from him in the cabin. Shit even I thought she was rude and dismissive. Then there is the fact that she lasted so long in Carver's camp in the first place since Clem has been bailing her out of getting into trouble since she arrived with them.
Note I wasn't looking for faults or inconsistencies. These are just off the cuff. The only one of the above points I really had issue with was Alvin not being mentioned by Reggie or Luke for that matter.
The fact remains that the game DID explain this. You just didn't find it.
You're holding against the game the fact that it has choices that result in the player finding out different information about the characters of the game. That's silly.
There were also plenty of cases just like this in S1. For instance, in order to find out about Lee's backstory with his wife, you had to pick one of four dialogue options when talking to The Stranger.
Alvin didn't die in my playthrough.
BUT it still doesn't excuse it. I only have a 1/4 chance of getting that statement and an even les… moreser chance of choosing the right option in the right scene. It would make more sense if I could find out more about it on my own time, like when Kenny asked me to walk around and find weaknesses; I could have talked to Rebecca about that and she might have known, but I couldn't.
Why would they bring it up in the first place? It has everything to do with the plot: it's the whole reason Carver beat the living sh*t out of him.
It's Telltale's job to make a game that I enjoy (and I do enjoy it, but I would enjoy it a lot more if I could understand these things) and make my experience as great as possible. If I see an unexplained part of the story and I do not like it, then I am entitled to call them out on it and express my displeasure and give feedback. If it's Telltale's obligation to keep me from immersing myself in the universe of their game, then pull my tail and call me a bitch, I would be pissed. Telltale has the advantage of user feedback between episodes, and it's a little frustrating that we have been asking for more investigation into characters for three episodes and haven't gotten it. If a reason was given, I would understand, but they haven't said anything on why they cannot have these things.
I am giving Telltale feedback on how they can make future episodes better: let us investigate.
It doesn't matter if you want to know more. Telltale isn't obligated to tell you, especially since it doesn't even have anything to do with … morethe plot. I personally would like to know more as well, but criticizing Telltale for not telling us is not a legitimate criticism.
And like Jon said, Alvin was still a well written character.
Your knowledge of narrative and what constitutes as a plothole is so great that you had to copy and paste the Wikipedia definition of plotho… moreles. Sadly you failed to mention that plotholes can also present when there are inconsistencies in a character's motivations, objectives and general characterisation. Not to mention oversights that defy narrative logic.
Examples of the above would be when Rebecca reunites with Reggie and he enquires about the whereabouts of carlos, Pete and Nick if Nick dies in episode 2 but he fails to enquire about Alvin even if Alvin is killed in episode 2 neither does Rebecca mention him. Then there is the fact that Sarah came from Carver's camp and she should be the one warning Clem to do her work and to keep quiet when Carver is talking not the other way around since she would know how dangerous he is and have a better idea of what he's capable of yet she persists to talk whilst Carver is talking even after be… [view original content]
Don't you think you're kind giving readers less credit than they deserve when you have to describe every single detail of a character's back story when generalizing is enough for them to get the point?
We are again assuming. We shouldn't assume. If we were given the information in the first place, we wouldn't have to assume anything.
… more As I said, I don't want my readers assuming anything; I want it either explained or purposefully left open ended for the plot. This situation is neither of those.
So you're saying that Telltale shouldn't bring anything up about a character's back story unless they are willing to delve completely into each and every little detail? Sorry but that is just unrealistic and silly. You know that Alvin killed a guy named George, presumably while escaping Carver's compound. You don't need to know anything more than that. Some things are left up to speculation. Happens in every story.
You don't know that Alvin killing George had anything to do with Carver beating him up. I personally find it more likely that it had something to do with him being Rebecca's husband.
Why would they bring it up in the first place? It has everything to do with the plot: it's the whole reason Carver beat the living sh*t out… more of him.
It's Telltale's job to make a game that I enjoy (and I do enjoy it, but I would enjoy it a lot more if I could understand these things) and make my experience as great as possible. If I see an unexplained part of the story and I do not like it, then I am entitled to call them out on it and express my displeasure and give feedback. If it's Telltale's obligation to keep me from immersing myself in the universe of their game, then pull my tail and call me a bitch, I would be pissed. Telltale has the advantage of user feedback between episodes, and it's a little frustrating that we have been asking for more investigation into characters for three episodes and haven't gotten it. If a reason was given, I would understand, but they haven't said anything on why they cannot have these things.
… [view original content]
If I have to find out these things by asking the right questions, that is in and of itself silly. I should be able to investigate these things if I so choose.
I am holding it against the game that there is only one way to know this information: if Alvin dies and you ask Bonnie one correct question. THAT is silly. It makes way more sense to find out about this if I decide to investigate things like in Season One, and if I choose not to, I don't get that info. My investigation determined if I found out or not, not my choices in general. Investigation gives us more branching choices, and it gives the game better overall quality.
It should also be said that Lee didn't really say anything we didn't already know: we just hear it in more detail. We already knew the motive and such.
The fact remains that the game DID explain this. You just didn't find it.
You're holding against the game the fact that it has choices… more that result in the player finding out different information about the characters of the game. That's silly.
There were also plenty of cases just like this in S1. For instance, in order to find out about Lee's backstory with his wife, you had to pick one of four dialogue options when talking to The Stranger.
We are again assuming. We shouldn't assume. If we were given the information in the first place, we wouldn't have to assume anything.
… more As I said, I don't want my readers assuming anything; I want it either explained or purposefully left open ended for the plot. This situation is neither of those.
Comments
It also provides a universe that is alive. If we know when she died, that means that we will be able to know if Carver already knew about her death or didn't know about her death and ignored it, which doesn't make sense why he would wonder where Luke is in Episode Two yet not care where Nick's mom is. If someone like Regi, Shel/Becca, Vince, or anyone else didn't know she was dead, they didn't seem concerned. That is why it is important to know when.
- Alvin and George
- Nick's mom
- 400 Days conversations
- Luke and Nick
These are NOT plot holes. They're character relationships that weren't further explored. They had nothing to do with the story of this episode.
JUST SAYING.
We're friends. No pinky swear though, hehe.
I don't get why these details bother people. You never found out the specifics of what Alvin did in the past. So what? Its not like Telltale is obligated to give you this information.
Or am I thinking way too deep into this?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvfJ26MdDU0#t=443
I'm not able to now. I've said this in a previous thread: these things can be fixed through more conversations in walking areas. I want to investigate, but I can't ask more than one question to each person (a question that I don't even pick), that is if they let me talk to them in the first place.
I aim to entertain! And you seem pretty cool as well!
Lol totally joking, I have no clue. I think everyone would find the plan too risky overall though, because if Sauron were to somehow find them they would be pretty well screwed.
Also, if Carver didn't acknowledge Nick's mom's presence at the end of Episode Two, then isn't it safe to imply that he doesn't know her, and everything that Luke and Nick explained in Episode One happened before they met Carver?
BUT it still doesn't excuse it. I only have a 1/4 chance of getting that statement and an even lesser chance of choosing the right option in the right scene. It would make more sense if I could find out more about it on my own time, like when Kenny asked me to walk around and find weaknesses; I could have talked to Rebecca about that and she might have known, but I couldn't.
Don't really care about anything else. I'll speak my mind even if I'm by myself.
Haha, I'm glad you enjoyed the show.
And like Jon said, Alvin was still a well written character.
Downvoting me doesn't prove whether I'm right or wrong, it just proves you're too insecure (or lazy) to articulate an opinion beyond a click of the mouse.
As I said, I don't want my readers assuming anything; I want it either explained or purposefully left open ended for the plot. This situation is neither of those.
Examples of the above would be when Rebecca reunites with Reggie and he enquires about the whereabouts of carlos, Pete and Nick if Nick dies in episode 2 but he fails to enquire about Alvin even if Alvin is killed in episode 2 neither does Rebecca mention him. Then there is the fact that Sarah came from Carver's camp and she should be the one warning Clem to do her work and to keep quiet when Carver is talking not the other way around since she would know how dangerous he is and have a better idea of what he's capable of yet she persists to talk whilst Carver is talking even after being warned by Clem, undermining this tyrant. The same girl that was hiding from him in the cabin. Shit even I thought she was rude and dismissive. Then there is the fact that she lasted so long in Carver's camp in the first place since Clem has been bailing her out of getting into trouble since she arrived with them.
Note I wasn't looking for faults or inconsistencies. These are just off the cuff. The only one of the above points I really had issue with was Alvin not being mentioned by Reggie or Luke for that matter.
You're holding against the game the fact that it has choices that result in the player finding out different information about the characters of the game. That's silly.
There were also plenty of cases just like this in S1. For instance, in order to find out about Lee's backstory with his wife, you had to pick one of four dialogue options when talking to The Stranger.
It's Telltale's job to make a game that I enjoy (and I do enjoy it, but I would enjoy it a lot more if I could understand these things) and make my experience as great as possible. If I see an unexplained part of the story and I do not like it, then I am entitled to call them out on it and express my displeasure and give feedback. If it's Telltale's obligation to keep me from immersing myself in the universe of their game, then pull my tail and call me a bitch, I would be pissed. Telltale has the advantage of user feedback between episodes, and it's a little frustrating that we have been asking for more investigation into characters for three episodes and haven't gotten it. If a reason was given, I would understand, but they haven't said anything on why they cannot have these things.
I am giving Telltale feedback on how they can make future episodes better: let us investigate.
Rebecca DOES mention Alvin if you tell Reggie Carver killed Walter.
You don't know that Alvin killing George had anything to do with Carver beating him up. I personally find it more likely that it had something to do with him being Rebecca's husband.
I am holding it against the game that there is only one way to know this information: if Alvin dies and you ask Bonnie one correct question. THAT is silly. It makes way more sense to find out about this if I decide to investigate things like in Season One, and if I choose not to, I don't get that info. My investigation determined if I found out or not, not my choices in general. Investigation gives us more branching choices, and it gives the game better overall quality.
It should also be said that Lee didn't really say anything we didn't already know: we just hear it in more detail. We already knew the motive and such.