Now, that's an interesting turn of events in this thread
It would be very interesting to hear a bit more about that, if you have the time. I started replaying Grim Fandango like a week ago - the controls just felt awful at first, but after mere 5-10 minutes, I had no problems with them (apart from hitting the wall at times when trying to enter the elevator, which is quite fitting to Manny's character, actually ), BUT! after reaching like half of the first year, I really don't see why it couldn't be point-and-click - to me, the Sam & Max games feel quite movie-like.
Actually speaking of Grim Fandango and Monkey Island 4. The moment I started to play them I rushed out to buy a pc gamepad with dual analog sticks, almost impossible to get back them, but as soon as I have gotten them I didnt mind the controls anymore. What I am saying was that the controls back then for both games were perfect for using such a kind of gamepad (which was almost non existent in the pc area) but they felt really awkward with a keyboard mouse combination.
I just wonder how the controls of Wallace and Grommit feel with a gamepad. But I assume not so good, because they do not lend themselves that well to a gamepad combo. Btw. I personally think that for a third person view with a direct character control a gamepad is far superior to any mouse combination, it is pretty much reversed for fist person with a wsad combination. The perfect example for this probably is Dreamfall, which is only playable with a gamepad due to those issues!
Ok I have given xbox 360 the gamepad a try, and I must say the controls are a perfect fit.
I can recommend to everyone try a gamepad instead, it works better than the mouse wsad combo!
I used my MI preorder free game to get W&G episode 1. Honestly, I wanted to give it the benefit of the doubt, but I'm not pleased with the control scheme so far. In the tutorial and the first few scenes of the game, I found it frustrating that I couldn't move by clicking. I kept unconsciously trying to do so. I also kept feeling like right click should be bringing up my inventory or that the inventory should have a handy icon on screen.
I've found the autohotkey script for simulating mouse movement and I'll probably use that to play the rest of the game. Because I'm stubborn and I refuse to believe that we're going to have to go back to this mixed-control scheme. I know it's about making things cinematic, expansive, having better camera angles, etc., but the conspiracist in me says it's a change made solely to cater to console exclusive gamers.
I am extremely sad to hear this is how the new Monkey Island is going to be controlled as well. Part of the reason I wanted TTG to get the rights was so they could return the franchise to point and click, not make another EMI.
As others have said, I'm not opposed to all changes, just to changes that make the game feel more like a chore than an enjoyment. If this becomes the prevailing method for TTG series from now on, I may have to give up on them and wait 5-10 years for another company to reintroduce mouse-only adventure games.
I may have to give up on them and wait 5-10 years for another company to reintroduce mouse-only adventure games.
You do not have to wait: There are other companies which have successfully published mouse-only adventure games during the last few years, and some of them are really worth playing. - I just think it would be unfair to advertise them here within Telltale's forum.
I used my MI preorder free game to get W&G episode 1. Honestly, I wanted to give it the benefit of the doubt, but I'm not pleased with the control scheme so far. In the tutorial and the first few scenes of the game, I found it frustrating that I couldn't move by clicking. I kept unconsciously trying to do so. I also kept feeling like right click should be bringing up my inventory or that the inventory should have a handy icon on screen.
I definitely had the same issue. If I were you though, I'd personally go through the options before condemning it outright. It took me awhile to find a set of the new controls that fit for me.
The right mouse button doesn't bring it up, but the mouse wheel does. It's not perfect, and feels a bit off, but the trade-off in what Telltale can do does allow for some better environments within the same schedule.
AutoHotkey, personally, seemed like a clumsier implementation than Telltale's own system...an interesting one, sure, but one that doesn't cut it overall.
I've found the autohotkey script for simulating mouse movement and I'll probably use that to play the rest of the game. Because I'm stubborn and I refuse to believe that we're going to have to go back to this mixed-control scheme. I know it's about making things cinematic, expansive, having better camera angles, etc., but the conspiracist in me says it's a change made solely to cater to console exclusive gamers.
I am extremely sad to hear this is how the new Monkey Island is going to be controlled as well. Part of the reason I wanted TTG to get the rights was so they could return the franchise to point and click, not make another EMI.
As others have said, I'm not opposed to all changes, just to changes that make the game feel more like a chore than an enjoyment. If this becomes the prevailing method for TTG series from now on, I may have to give up on them and wait 5-10 years for another company to reintroduce mouse-only adventure games.[/QUOTE]
I just downloaded the demo to see how I liked the controls. And although I'm not a huge fan of moving with the keyboard, I was able to get the hang of it.
The part that is really impossible for me to deal with is the mouse. It floats around the screen so much I can't get it to click on what I want. When I move my mouse, the cursor should go along with it. I feel completely out of control of my mouse movement.
Is this something that was fixed in the actual release? Or is the demo a true representation?
The part that is really impossible for me to deal with is the mouse. It floats around the screen so much I can't get it to click on what I want. When I move my mouse, the cursor should go along with it. I feel completely out of control of my mouse movement.
Is this something that was fixed in the actual release? Or is the demo a true representation?
This is either some extreme cursor lag, a bug, or the computer itself. FWIW, there was definite improvement on my end between the demo and the final release when it came to cursor movement.
For now, try to dial back the demo's graphics settings, however many levels needed to make the cursor behave. If this doesn't help, post about it in the Support Forums and offer as much information about your computer (e.g. the specs and operating system) as you can.
AutoHotkey, personally, seemed like a clumsier implementation than Telltale's own system...an interesting one, sure, but one that doesn't cut it overall.
Well, it's just a script added on top of the game, it can't be expected to work perfectly. If someone had access to the source code and all that, I'm sure something much better could've been designed.
The part that is really impossible for me to deal with is the mouse. It floats around the screen so much I can't get it to click on what I want. When I move my mouse, the cursor should go along with it. I feel completely out of control of my mouse movement.
I agree with "light_rises": That is definitely related to your hardware. - Set the graphics level to "1" and everything should work just fine (unless you have a very old computer). Then increase the level step by step until the mouse pointer starts lagging again. - Or buy a new PC.
The new "real" 3D looked introduced with Wallace & Gromit is much more resource demanding than Sam & Max, for example, where I could play the game with the "high" detail level and a screen resolution of 1024x768. - For Wallace & Gromit I either need to reduce the graphics level to "4" or set a resolution of 800x600 and go to level "6" to get the mouse to react as I expect.
Will there be any possibility of future support for the 360 wireless controller? I'd really like to use a gamepad to play these games and the wireless is all I have.
Yeah. It doesn't work in the demo for some reason, but it works like a charm in the real game. I assume you have the same 360 wireless adapter that I so, I suppose
<--Long-time reader; first time poster... (pardon, but I've always wanted to use that cliché. )
After reading the posts in this thread, I felt the need to add my 2 pence. I agree with the proponents of a SINGLE interface system. Be it strictly mouse or strictly keyboard, let it be one OR the other. Please avoid requiring BOTH interfaces.
In regards to WALLACE AND GROMIT, my problem is the opposite of most of what I've read in this thread. I was frustrated when the MOUSE was required. Please, mouse-enthusiasts, hear me out. The keys required of W&G are very close in relation to each other and, I think, very well planned. You know the drill but I think it important to emphasize how easy this game really is when conducted solely by keyboard.
WASD can also be accomplished by the ARROW keys, located to the lower-right of the ENTER key (wait for it ...)
SHIFT is your inventory. You have two options here. Use the left-shift or the RIGHT-SHIFT key to access your inventory. Hint: The RIGHT-SHIFT key is just below the ENTER key ( Here it comes ...) And you can scroll through inventory items with the UP and DOWN ARROW keys, which (in case you're not paying attention) are centimeters below the SHIFT key. (Now, you're getting it. Here's the punchline ...)
ENTER-your most functional interaction key. This selects hot-spots and comments. It also selects inventory items (scroll with the ARROW keys and strike ENTER) And, finally, it "uses" inventory items with hot-spots. In short: the action, "USE TIMER WITH STAND" only requires navigating with the ARROW keys (easy to do) getting the STAND to be a hot-spot, hitting the RIGHT-SHIFT key and using the DOWN ARROW key until the TIMER is highlighted. Hit the ENTER key twice and the deed is done.
The point, if you missed it, is that all the necessary keys are close together and no more taxing to utilize ONE-HANDED than a mouse is. The advantage is that you have just as much control over the game as a mouse (maybe more). I think this a brilliant compromise, considering how lucrative porting these games to other consoles has proven to be.
However, I MUST EMPHASIZE MY GRIEVANCE! In most cases, the particular hot-spot I needed fell into focus. ARROW UP, doorknob falls into focus, ENTER .. I am inside ..great programming. Again, HOWEVER, the necessary object fell out of focus as readily as it fell in.
In other words, due to the inherent limitations of WASD, Gromit comes to the door at a left-angle. The door knob is not in focus. Okay. I strike the RIGHT ARROW key, briefly, but now Gromit is facing to the right of the door, and the door knob is still not in focus. I fiddle back and forth, trying to strike each key as briefly as possible but only the same result.
I must put down my (*ahem* drink .... or whatever) use my OTHER hand and move the mouse to bring the desired object into focus. I want to stress that this was not the norm but it happened enough during the first two games that I sometimes became frustrated. If I have to focus too much on movement, I am no longer focusing on the story--the ESSENCE of adventure.
I have never contributed to gaming software. Still, I think this suggestion could be easily implemented into the existing interface.
IF PLAYER-CHARACTER (Stands in place and turns)
THEN (Reduce the arc of turn you currently employ.)
I suggest that important items of focus should not *zip past* focus with normal keyboard movement. If this involves stopping the PLAYER-CHARACTER's rotation on the next hot-spot in his turn-arc, so be it. I can deal with hot-spot A (arrow) hot-spot B (and so on) repeating until I turn the PLAYER CHARACTER away from the hot-spots and walk to a different camera-angle.
My point, again, in closing: Chose one interface or the other whenever possible. This should not include "mini-games" which may occur from time to time but I believe should hold true in the normal gameplay. Don't make me use my *other* hand.
The thing is, what you have just described is very close to the system LucasArts used for Grim Fandango and Escape From Monkey Island, and it was terrible. Moving the character around was handled well enough, but the annoyance of having to walk up to an object or person before you could even tell whether or not it was a hotspot got old very quickly, it had its own evil twin to pixel-hunting in having to find that one sweet spot that would let you pick up the macguffin you needed, and sorting through multiple nearby hotspots was similarly irritating.
In other words, due to the inherent limitations of WASD, Gromit comes to the door at a left-angle. The door knob is not in focus. Okay. I strike the RIGHT ARROW key, briefly, but now Gromit is facing to the right of the door, and the door knob is still not in focus. I fiddle back and forth, trying to strike each key as briefly as possible but only the same result.
You can use Q and E to cycle through selectable items on screen.
But I agree it should be simpler (who thinks of using Q and E?)
DarthBo, ... Holy Moley! Thanks for the tip. I have a free game from my pre-purchase of TOMI, so, I'll try that on the next W&G once it's released. (No, my frustration did not halt my interest.) Still, my point is smooshed by 'Q' and 'E.' I was pointing out that "all" the keys were in the right quadrant of the keyboard.
So, I suggest ... (uh oh) ... PGUP and PGDWN to scroll between hotspots? (Awaits the barrage of EFMI control hatahs)
Shale: As to the controls of ESCAPE MI and GRIM FANDANGO, I would not call them "terrible" ... not in the slightest. I had little problem mastering these controls (I'd say a 5-minute learning curve) GF frustrated me because I could not see descriptions of my hot-spot items. EFMI gave plenty of subtitles, so I found navigation/manipulation much more convenient and satisfying than I did GF. (I had to resort to a walkthrough twice during GF and both times resulted in revealing to me a *missed* item ... something that rarely if ever happens to me in an adventure game).
Still, I never understood the criticism of these controls, so take what I have to say with THAT grain of salt.
I thought the controls were just fine. Much, much better than MI4. And I'm used to the old point and click of yore. If the game's gonna be 3D, you might as well have immersive controls.
Yeah. It doesn't work in the demo for some reason, but it works like a charm in the real game. I assume you have the same 360 wireless adapter that I so, I suppose
Yeah I'm using the wireless adapter, but it doesn't wanna work for me (I've got the full game). Are there any setting you need to go into get the game to recognise that you're using the controller?
EDIT: Well, after a reformat and a clean install, the Wireless Controller now works, must have been some problems with my system.
So, I bought the first two episodes of W&G, and played through Fright of the Bumblebees using an Xbox 360 controller on the PC. And I hated it.
The character controls on the analog stick are horrible. I don't know if the controls are broken or just buggy, but the character often didn't seem to go in the direction I wanted them to, which is kind of an annoyance when you're using what is supposed to be direct controls.
Choosing hotspots with the right analog also didn't really work. Which hotspot was chosen when pushing in a direction on the stick seemed to be completely random at times. For example, I'm controlling Gromit right next to Wallace in the kitchen. I'm only able to select Wallace by pushing down on the left stick, pushing left and right scrolled through every hotspot except for Wallace.
The hassle with the controls made me want to just get things over with, instead of experimenting and exploring like with most adventure games. It made the game itself become a chore. Instead of "Let's see what happens if I..." it became "Nah, too much trouble, let's just get on with the quest."
As for the explanation given to us on the previously unseen "cinematic" angles and whatnot these new controls would afford us? What a load of crap. Every area was in actuality a two dimensional set, where all the movement happened in one dimension. Sure, you could walk into and out of the set, but that didn't really accomplish anything. I mean, if TT had really intended to make use of these cinematic angles, how about giving us a tracking camera in the whole downtown area?
And in all honesty, in any of the episode's areas you could've achieved much more visually if you had just limited character movement to left-right (making in-out movement automatic) and moved the camera around as the character moves on the set. The only area where this could've posed a problem would have been the hallway, since you had exits on all four walls, but then again, that's why you change camera angles. With that you could've also easily kept mouse control and the "cinematic" camera.
I'm hoping The Last Resort improves on these matters.
I got the first episode and I actually quite like the WASD control, even though for the first few minutes I always wanted to click to walk. My only two frustrations were that I couldn't scroll through the "what happened so far" text with the arrow keys, only the mouse wheel (unless I missed something), and the other one, which has more to do with the mechanics of the game, is that I can't just examine an object for a hopefully witty comment, just perform an action that may be examining it if it can't be activated, picked up or talked to.
Fascinating to get the insight on Grim, such an incredible game! And the controls worked well for the most part, mostly because of the expansive environments in that game. I remember the walk between the lift and the dog track taking ages, but the environment funnelled you into the correct path and it worked well.
The tight environments of W&G require pretty frequent interaction and not-all-that-much walking, so while I love leaning back in my chair and thinking when playing adventures, I am forced to crouch over a keyboard - something that's OK in action games where I'm on the edge of my seat, but not in the calmer environs of Adventure.
I'm not about to use a controller with my PC - it's not a console and I treat it very differently. I own a 360, PS2 and Wii, and if it's easier to kick back and play on those, then I will.
F
The tight environments of W&G require pretty frequent interaction and not-all-that-much walking, so while I love leaning back in my chair and thinking when playing adventures, I am forced to crouch over a keyboard - something that's OK in action games where I'm on the edge of my seat, but not in the calmer environs of Adventure.
If the chair is a problem, then play with a gamepad ;-)
Actually the game really plays better with the pad!
Btw. how do you do the leaning in chair thing if you have to move the mouse?
The arm length is pretty much the same in both hands.
If the response to a PC game is "It plays better with a gamepad", then something is wrong. It may be great for console fans, fine, but I'm playing my games on a PC and I'd prefer not to use a gamepad on my computer.
I've reached a "comfortable place" with Wallace and Gromit controls after trying all the different configurations, using the one that I've found makes the most use of my mouse. But I think it could still use some work, since it doesn't feel completely "right".
I've reached a "comfortable place" with Wallace and Gromit controls after trying all the different configurations, using the one that I've found makes the most use of my mouse. But I think it could still use some work, since it doesn't feel completely "right".
If you have specific feedback about things like the layout or key bindings that would help get the controls closer to being "right", that information would be nice to have. Improvements based on your feedback might even make it in to MI or future titles!
how do you do the leaning in chair thing if you have to move the mouse?
The arm length is pretty much the same in both hands.
You turn side-on to your desk, with your right side towards the desk. Mouse hand rests on the mouse, left hand holds a refreshing beverage of your choice. Lean back and rest your feet on your wall/desk/trashcan/footstool/significant other, and enjoy.
You turn side-on to your desk, with your right side towards the desk. Mouse hand rests on the mouse, left hand holds a refreshing beverage of your choice. Lean back and rest your feet on your wall/desk/trashcan/footstool/significant other, and enjoy.
It's amazing that others play adventure games just like me. - Except that I usually turn to the right, play the game using my left hand and use my right hand to eat potato chips or something similar.
And for the record (once again): Even when using a gamepad you need both of your hands to play W&G and very likely also ToMI.
And for the record (once again): Even when using a gamepad you need both of your hands to play W&G and very likely also ToMI.
Well, you don't need both hands, since there aren't any action sequences or anything that requires lightning fast reflexes, but it is slow and tedious to try to play with the gamepad with just one hand.
I'm thinking arrow keys, ctrl (look) and the 0 key (interact) on the numpad (and a couple other nearby keys for other required functions) could be used for one-handed control, switching to the mouse when required. Not as comfortable, but it wouldn't be too bad.
You can use Q and E to cycle through selectable items on screen.
Wait, I just tried that with W&G: Last resort and whilst it worked against scrolling problems in regular mode, it still did not resolve the problems in "close-up" view. Specifically. I could not choose a suspect on Dibble's list with 'Q' and 'E' I had to use the mouse to interrogate a suspect.
THIS IS WRONG! Whilst W&G can be effectively played with WASD and QE, it still requires the lateral hand-move to 'ENTER' or 'SHIFT' to execute commands. PLEASE TELLTALE (caps for emphasis) Don't Make Your Games Reliant On MORE THAN ONE HAND! If strictly-keyboard, then one-handed keyboard action should be all that is REQUIRED. Don't make us use two hands. If the keyboard is required then NO MOUSE should be.
One interface or another ... that's all I'm asking. If strictly keyboard, then fine! But, shouldn't you allow key-mapping with your games? Allow me to assign important tasks to the keys that work best for me.It should not be difficult to include key-mapping with your games.
THIS IS WRONG! Whilst W&G can be effectively played with WASD and QE, it still requires the lateral hand-move to 'ENTER' or 'SHIFT' to execute commands.
If you rest your fingers on the following keys, you can play the entire game without moving your hand:
[W]
[A] [D]
[Shift]
[Space Bar]
This pattern should be a very comfortable fit for most people.
If you rest your fingers on the following keys, you can play the entire game without moving your hand: [..]
This pattern should be a very comfortable fit for most people.
Agreed; in case you are left-handed. (I will give this a try with "Muzzled!" next week.)
However, if you want to play with the right hand, that pattern does not work. And it is more difficult to find a good pattern for the right hand, as keyboard layouts vary for different countries, especially on the right side where you have special characters. Therefore I support the suggestion to let the player define the key mapping. It can't be that difficult to implement this feature!? - I would already be satisfied with a small text-file or something similar.
If the response to a PC game is "It plays better with a gamepad", then something is wrong. It may be great for console fans, fine, but I'm playing my games on a PC and I'd prefer not to use a gamepad on my computer.
Actually the harsh reality nowadays is that many pc games simply play better with a gamepad, first because they are also programmed for consoles and the control scheme is made for them and those who dont need mostly a combination of mouse+keyboard, normally wsad style!
Secondly there are cases where the mouse only controls simply fail due to their 2d nature, you need additional input for the third dimension!
(Mouse + WSAD is standard nowadays for first person 3d, while I personally think nothing comes close to a gamepad for third person with free floating cameras!)
Secondly there are cases where the mouse only controls simply fail due to their 2d nature, you need additional input for the third dimension!
...wait, how are analog sticks more "three dimensional"? You're traveling in a straight line, in one direction. Whether that command is given by moving a stick or holding down a key or two doesn't really matter.
...wait, how are analog sticks more "three dimensional"? You're traveling in a straight line, in one direction. Whether that command is given by moving a stick or holding down a key or two doesn't really matter.
They are more dimensional because due to their dual stick setup. usually it goes like that that the first stick is used for movement, the second stick is used for the camera control.
Very similar to a mouse WSAD setup where the keyboard is used for movement while the mouse is used for camera control (or view control)
I have used both systems. For first person view I prefer wsad because of being able to handle point focus more precicely. While third person free floating camera feels more superior with gamepads. I am not sure why, but I assume movement control is better with an analog stick instead of digital wsad keys in this case and the camera control works better with a stick as well (I still cannot figure out why it feels better but it does).
The classical example for this is Tomb Raider and also Dreamfall, both close to unplayable in their wsad setup while they play excellently with a gamepad attached. Also I would never every play Psychonauts without a pad, the keyboard mouse control feels very clumsy and unprecise compared to playing it with a pad!
^Now, lets not be giving Telltale any ideas, I don't want Sam and Max Season 4 to end up an FPS
More seriously though I thought I'd leave some feedback on the controls. The full game supported my wireless 360 pad, which was a huge improvement in comfort over the mouse and keyboard. I did also like the option to highlight all usable objects as pixel hunting is a personal bugbear of mine even with the larger object sizes of modern games, so for me the W&G controls were quite acceptable. For the people without a controller there's still a big question mark over usability though, and going back to Sam and Max the mouse only controls were still a lot more comfortable, so where possible I think this would still be the best solution.
To get to the ideal of mouse only controls on PC I had a few ideas.
1) Point and click. In the first episode there were only a few areas where you couldn't see the ground at all, so it would be nice where you could see the ground you could click on it to move. This wouldn't be a complete solution on it's own as it would be frustrating when you couldn't see the floor to have to reach for the keyboard, especially as these shots weren't particularly spectacular or significant from a gameplay perspective.
2) Screen edge icons
This may take a little extra setup in the composition of your shots, but in tight areas you could have icons to flit between opposite sides of the room so you could see everything by clicking back and forth on these
3) Offscreen interaction icons.
You could have it so holding the right mouse button brings up an icon for either every interactable in the room as a list down the side, just the offscreen ones down the side, or the offscreen ones relative to their existing position. From a usability perspective this is my favourite option.
4) Walkabout mode.
Clicking and holding on Wallace (or Gromit) could cause them to walk between all the interactive items in the room, in a preset order.
5) Panning/scrolling.
It's a little weird that despite using 3d there's still no way to control the camera, I realise some of the objects in the game won't so solid as they appear, but there may be some room here to twiddle with the controls. You could have the mouse wheel scroll out to show more of the screen, or have it so when a button is held the screen shifts to an overhead perspective more ideal for showing the ground. Or you could just have it so you can scroll about the screen by moving the cursor to the edges, without moving the central character, so you could click on an interactive and have them walk over to it.
Now these aren't fully fleshed out, some of them would require a bit more attention in every new scene to make sure they worked well and didn't break the illusion of the world the characters inhabit, but for the majority of PC gamers without gamepads (who I suspect make up a fairly large chunk of your audience)
If the response to a PC game is "It plays better with a gamepad", then something is wrong.
You mean after all those years PCs have supported joysticks, gamepads and whatsits only now we find out we've been doing it TOTALLY WRONG all those years?
I, for one, would never want to play Trackmania with the keyboard ever again... and that's PC only if you ignore the recent Nintendo DS port.
You mean after all those years PCs have supported joysticks, gamepads and whatsits only now we find out we've been doing it TOTALLY WRONG all those years?
I, for one, would never want to play Trackmania with the keyboard ever again... and that's PC only if you ignore the recent Nintendo DS port.
Actually this argument goes with pretty much every game in third person mode, I recently played Tomb Raider underworld, I instantly went for the pad control, then I reverted back to the standard PC keyboard + mouse scheme, I was horrible.
But it really depends, I currently play Drakensang and there the WSAD, mouse control scheme works really well (they also have point and click only as well additionally, but it does not work as well as the wsad combination)
But since this game is a party based RPG I dont really see how a pad could bring additional comfort, especialls since they managed to pull off the free floating camera controls quite nice!
You turn side-on to your desk, with your right side towards the desk. Mouse hand rests on the mouse, left hand holds a refreshing beverage of your choice. Lean back and rest your feet on your wall/desk/trashcan/footstool/significant other, and enjoy.
That is so precisely what I meant I couldn't help but chuckle
I don't think the WAG controls are terrible, they just feel less convenient / accessible than previous Telltale games, which I held in very high regard for the way they handled mouse control and camera angles. I'm guessing the change was brought in as a result of the tight environs of the house, which is fair enough, certainly mouse control would require some different camera angles.
For me selecting items on-screen is the biggest barrier to keyboard-only control. I just fired the game up to double-check, and I find that more often than not when I walk up to an item, nothing gets highlighted. Seems I can press E to switch between items - I didn't realise that when playing previously (not in the tutorial?) but still, clicking is still quicker and easier.
Oh, and the backseat director in me likes to make everything look as smooth as possible so 8 directional keyboard control doesn't cut it
Having had a good whinge, I should point out that I thought the WAG games so far have been excellent, and if I have to put up with sitting up straight and resting the refreshing beverage of my choice on the desk, then so be it!
It's like this, nobody had any problem with Sam And Max or Strongbads point and click controls. They worked fine. The new system has a lot of people complaining. The only need for these new controls is to cater for the console versions which benefit from having walking controls.
Telltale should just use point and click for the PC versions and give the console versions their own control system then everybody would be happy and we could play the adventure games on our PC how we have always played them and the way that works the best.
Comments
Actually speaking of Grim Fandango and Monkey Island 4. The moment I started to play them I rushed out to buy a pc gamepad with dual analog sticks, almost impossible to get back them, but as soon as I have gotten them I didnt mind the controls anymore. What I am saying was that the controls back then for both games were perfect for using such a kind of gamepad (which was almost non existent in the pc area) but they felt really awkward with a keyboard mouse combination.
I just wonder how the controls of Wallace and Grommit feel with a gamepad. But I assume not so good, because they do not lend themselves that well to a gamepad combo. Btw. I personally think that for a third person view with a direct character control a gamepad is far superior to any mouse combination, it is pretty much reversed for fist person with a wsad combination. The perfect example for this probably is Dreamfall, which is only playable with a gamepad due to those issues!
I can recommend to everyone try a gamepad instead, it works better than the mouse wsad combo!
I've found the autohotkey script for simulating mouse movement and I'll probably use that to play the rest of the game. Because I'm stubborn and I refuse to believe that we're going to have to go back to this mixed-control scheme. I know it's about making things cinematic, expansive, having better camera angles, etc., but the conspiracist in me says it's a change made solely to cater to console exclusive gamers.
I am extremely sad to hear this is how the new Monkey Island is going to be controlled as well. Part of the reason I wanted TTG to get the rights was so they could return the franchise to point and click, not make another EMI.
As others have said, I'm not opposed to all changes, just to changes that make the game feel more like a chore than an enjoyment. If this becomes the prevailing method for TTG series from now on, I may have to give up on them and wait 5-10 years for another company to reintroduce mouse-only adventure games.
The right mouse button doesn't bring it up, but the mouse wheel does. It's not perfect, and feels a bit off, but the trade-off in what Telltale can do does allow for some better environments within the same schedule.
AutoHotkey, personally, seemed like a clumsier implementation than Telltale's own system...an interesting one, sure, but one that doesn't cut it overall.
I've found the autohotkey script for simulating mouse movement and I'll probably use that to play the rest of the game. Because I'm stubborn and I refuse to believe that we're going to have to go back to this mixed-control scheme. I know it's about making things cinematic, expansive, having better camera angles, etc., but the conspiracist in me says it's a change made solely to cater to console exclusive gamers.
I am extremely sad to hear this is how the new Monkey Island is going to be controlled as well. Part of the reason I wanted TTG to get the rights was so they could return the franchise to point and click, not make another EMI.
As others have said, I'm not opposed to all changes, just to changes that make the game feel more like a chore than an enjoyment. If this becomes the prevailing method for TTG series from now on, I may have to give up on them and wait 5-10 years for another company to reintroduce mouse-only adventure games.[/QUOTE]
The part that is really impossible for me to deal with is the mouse. It floats around the screen so much I can't get it to click on what I want. When I move my mouse, the cursor should go along with it. I feel completely out of control of my mouse movement.
Is this something that was fixed in the actual release? Or is the demo a true representation?
This is either some extreme cursor lag, a bug, or the computer itself. FWIW, there was definite improvement on my end between the demo and the final release when it came to cursor movement.
For now, try to dial back the demo's graphics settings, however many levels needed to make the cursor behave. If this doesn't help, post about it in the Support Forums and offer as much information about your computer (e.g. the specs and operating system) as you can.
The new "real" 3D looked introduced with Wallace & Gromit is much more resource demanding than Sam & Max, for example, where I could play the game with the "high" detail level and a screen resolution of 1024x768. - For Wallace & Gromit I either need to reduce the graphics level to "4" or set a resolution of 800x600 and go to level "6" to get the mouse to react as I expect.
<--Long-time reader; first time poster... (pardon, but I've always wanted to use that cliché. )
After reading the posts in this thread, I felt the need to add my 2 pence. I agree with the proponents of a SINGLE interface system. Be it strictly mouse or strictly keyboard, let it be one OR the other. Please avoid requiring BOTH interfaces.
In regards to WALLACE AND GROMIT, my problem is the opposite of most of what I've read in this thread. I was frustrated when the MOUSE was required. Please, mouse-enthusiasts, hear me out. The keys required of W&G are very close in relation to each other and, I think, very well planned. You know the drill but I think it important to emphasize how easy this game really is when conducted solely by keyboard.
WASD can also be accomplished by the ARROW keys, located to the lower-right of the ENTER key (wait for it ...)
SHIFT is your inventory. You have two options here. Use the left-shift or the RIGHT-SHIFT key to access your inventory. Hint: The RIGHT-SHIFT key is just below the ENTER key ( Here it comes ...) And you can scroll through inventory items with the UP and DOWN ARROW keys, which (in case you're not paying attention) are centimeters below the SHIFT key. (Now, you're getting it. Here's the punchline ...)
ENTER-your most functional interaction key. This selects hot-spots and comments. It also selects inventory items (scroll with the ARROW keys and strike ENTER) And, finally, it "uses" inventory items with hot-spots. In short: the action, "USE TIMER WITH STAND" only requires navigating with the ARROW keys (easy to do) getting the STAND to be a hot-spot, hitting the RIGHT-SHIFT key and using the DOWN ARROW key until the TIMER is highlighted. Hit the ENTER key twice and the deed is done.
The point, if you missed it, is that all the necessary keys are close together and no more taxing to utilize ONE-HANDED than a mouse is. The advantage is that you have just as much control over the game as a mouse (maybe more). I think this a brilliant compromise, considering how lucrative porting these games to other consoles has proven to be.
However, I MUST EMPHASIZE MY GRIEVANCE! In most cases, the particular hot-spot I needed fell into focus. ARROW UP, doorknob falls into focus, ENTER .. I am inside ..great programming. Again, HOWEVER, the necessary object fell out of focus as readily as it fell in.
In other words, due to the inherent limitations of WASD, Gromit comes to the door at a left-angle. The door knob is not in focus. Okay. I strike the RIGHT ARROW key, briefly, but now Gromit is facing to the right of the door, and the door knob is still not in focus. I fiddle back and forth, trying to strike each key as briefly as possible but only the same result.
I must put down my (*ahem* drink .... or whatever) use my OTHER hand and move the mouse to bring the desired object into focus. I want to stress that this was not the norm but it happened enough during the first two games that I sometimes became frustrated. If I have to focus too much on movement, I am no longer focusing on the story--the ESSENCE of adventure.
I have never contributed to gaming software. Still, I think this suggestion could be easily implemented into the existing interface.
IF PLAYER-CHARACTER (Stands in place and turns)
THEN (Reduce the arc of turn you currently employ.)
I suggest that important items of focus should not *zip past* focus with normal keyboard movement. If this involves stopping the PLAYER-CHARACTER's rotation on the next hot-spot in his turn-arc, so be it. I can deal with hot-spot A (arrow) hot-spot B (and so on) repeating until I turn the PLAYER CHARACTER away from the hot-spots and walk to a different camera-angle.
My point, again, in closing: Chose one interface or the other whenever possible. This should not include "mini-games" which may occur from time to time but I believe should hold true in the normal gameplay. Don't make me use my *other* hand.
Thank you all and to all a "goodnight."
But I agree it should be simpler (who thinks of using Q and E?)
So, I suggest ... (uh oh) ... PGUP and PGDWN to scroll between hotspots? (Awaits the barrage of EFMI control hatahs)
Shale: As to the controls of ESCAPE MI and GRIM FANDANGO, I would not call them "terrible" ... not in the slightest. I had little problem mastering these controls (I'd say a 5-minute learning curve) GF frustrated me because I could not see descriptions of my hot-spot items. EFMI gave plenty of subtitles, so I found navigation/manipulation much more convenient and satisfying than I did GF. (I had to resort to a walkthrough twice during GF and both times resulted in revealing to me a *missed* item ... something that rarely if ever happens to me in an adventure game).
Still, I never understood the criticism of these controls, so take what I have to say with THAT grain of salt.
Edit for spelling
Yeah I'm using the wireless adapter, but it doesn't wanna work for me (I've got the full game). Are there any setting you need to go into get the game to recognise that you're using the controller?
EDIT: Well, after a reformat and a clean install, the Wireless Controller now works, must have been some problems with my system.
The character controls on the analog stick are horrible. I don't know if the controls are broken or just buggy, but the character often didn't seem to go in the direction I wanted them to, which is kind of an annoyance when you're using what is supposed to be direct controls.
Choosing hotspots with the right analog also didn't really work. Which hotspot was chosen when pushing in a direction on the stick seemed to be completely random at times. For example, I'm controlling Gromit right next to Wallace in the kitchen. I'm only able to select Wallace by pushing down on the left stick, pushing left and right scrolled through every hotspot except for Wallace.
The hassle with the controls made me want to just get things over with, instead of experimenting and exploring like with most adventure games. It made the game itself become a chore. Instead of "Let's see what happens if I..." it became "Nah, too much trouble, let's just get on with the quest."
As for the explanation given to us on the previously unseen "cinematic" angles and whatnot these new controls would afford us? What a load of crap. Every area was in actuality a two dimensional set, where all the movement happened in one dimension. Sure, you could walk into and out of the set, but that didn't really accomplish anything. I mean, if TT had really intended to make use of these cinematic angles, how about giving us a tracking camera in the whole downtown area?
And in all honesty, in any of the episode's areas you could've achieved much more visually if you had just limited character movement to left-right (making in-out movement automatic) and moved the camera around as the character moves on the set. The only area where this could've posed a problem would have been the hallway, since you had exits on all four walls, but then again, that's why you change camera angles. With that you could've also easily kept mouse control and the "cinematic" camera.
I'm hoping The Last Resort improves on these matters.
The tight environments of W&G require pretty frequent interaction and not-all-that-much walking, so while I love leaning back in my chair and thinking when playing adventures, I am forced to crouch over a keyboard - something that's OK in action games where I'm on the edge of my seat, but not in the calmer environs of Adventure.
I'm not about to use a controller with my PC - it's not a console and I treat it very differently. I own a 360, PS2 and Wii, and if it's easier to kick back and play on those, then I will.
If the chair is a problem, then play with a gamepad ;-)
Actually the game really plays better with the pad!
Btw. how do you do the leaning in chair thing if you have to move the mouse?
The arm length is pretty much the same in both hands.
I've reached a "comfortable place" with Wallace and Gromit controls after trying all the different configurations, using the one that I've found makes the most use of my mouse. But I think it could still use some work, since it doesn't feel completely "right".
If you have specific feedback about things like the layout or key bindings that would help get the controls closer to being "right", that information would be nice to have. Improvements based on your feedback might even make it in to MI or future titles!
You turn side-on to your desk, with your right side towards the desk. Mouse hand rests on the mouse, left hand holds a refreshing beverage of your choice. Lean back and rest your feet on your wall/desk/trashcan/footstool/significant other, and enjoy.
And for the record (once again): Even when using a gamepad you need both of your hands to play W&G and very likely also ToMI.
THIS IS WRONG! Whilst W&G can be effectively played with WASD and QE, it still requires the lateral hand-move to 'ENTER' or 'SHIFT' to execute commands. PLEASE TELLTALE (caps for emphasis) Don't Make Your Games Reliant On MORE THAN ONE HAND! If strictly-keyboard, then one-handed keyboard action should be all that is REQUIRED. Don't make us use two hands. If the keyboard is required then NO MOUSE should be.
One interface or another ... that's all I'm asking. If strictly keyboard, then fine! But, shouldn't you allow key-mapping with your games? Allow me to assign important tasks to the keys that work best for me.It should not be difficult to include key-mapping with your games.
If you rest your fingers on the following keys, you can play the entire game without moving your hand:
This pattern should be a very comfortable fit for most people.
However, if you want to play with the right hand, that pattern does not work. And it is more difficult to find a good pattern for the right hand, as keyboard layouts vary for different countries, especially on the right side where you have special characters. Therefore I support the suggestion to let the player define the key mapping. It can't be that difficult to implement this feature!? - I would already be satisfied with a small text-file or something similar.
Actually the harsh reality nowadays is that many pc games simply play better with a gamepad, first because they are also programmed for consoles and the control scheme is made for them and those who dont need mostly a combination of mouse+keyboard, normally wsad style!
Secondly there are cases where the mouse only controls simply fail due to their 2d nature, you need additional input for the third dimension!
(Mouse + WSAD is standard nowadays for first person 3d, while I personally think nothing comes close to a gamepad for third person with free floating cameras!)
They are more dimensional because due to their dual stick setup. usually it goes like that that the first stick is used for movement, the second stick is used for the camera control.
Very similar to a mouse WSAD setup where the keyboard is used for movement while the mouse is used for camera control (or view control)
I have used both systems. For first person view I prefer wsad because of being able to handle point focus more precicely. While third person free floating camera feels more superior with gamepads. I am not sure why, but I assume movement control is better with an analog stick instead of digital wsad keys in this case and the camera control works better with a stick as well (I still cannot figure out why it feels better but it does).
The classical example for this is Tomb Raider and also Dreamfall, both close to unplayable in their wsad setup while they play excellently with a gamepad attached. Also I would never every play Psychonauts without a pad, the keyboard mouse control feels very clumsy and unprecise compared to playing it with a pad!
More seriously though I thought I'd leave some feedback on the controls. The full game supported my wireless 360 pad, which was a huge improvement in comfort over the mouse and keyboard. I did also like the option to highlight all usable objects as pixel hunting is a personal bugbear of mine even with the larger object sizes of modern games, so for me the W&G controls were quite acceptable. For the people without a controller there's still a big question mark over usability though, and going back to Sam and Max the mouse only controls were still a lot more comfortable, so where possible I think this would still be the best solution.
To get to the ideal of mouse only controls on PC I had a few ideas.
1) Point and click. In the first episode there were only a few areas where you couldn't see the ground at all, so it would be nice where you could see the ground you could click on it to move. This wouldn't be a complete solution on it's own as it would be frustrating when you couldn't see the floor to have to reach for the keyboard, especially as these shots weren't particularly spectacular or significant from a gameplay perspective.
2) Screen edge icons
This may take a little extra setup in the composition of your shots, but in tight areas you could have icons to flit between opposite sides of the room so you could see everything by clicking back and forth on these
3) Offscreen interaction icons.
You could have it so holding the right mouse button brings up an icon for either every interactable in the room as a list down the side, just the offscreen ones down the side, or the offscreen ones relative to their existing position. From a usability perspective this is my favourite option.
4) Walkabout mode.
Clicking and holding on Wallace (or Gromit) could cause them to walk between all the interactive items in the room, in a preset order.
5) Panning/scrolling.
It's a little weird that despite using 3d there's still no way to control the camera, I realise some of the objects in the game won't so solid as they appear, but there may be some room here to twiddle with the controls. You could have the mouse wheel scroll out to show more of the screen, or have it so when a button is held the screen shifts to an overhead perspective more ideal for showing the ground. Or you could just have it so you can scroll about the screen by moving the cursor to the edges, without moving the central character, so you could click on an interactive and have them walk over to it.
Now these aren't fully fleshed out, some of them would require a bit more attention in every new scene to make sure they worked well and didn't break the illusion of the world the characters inhabit, but for the majority of PC gamers without gamepads (who I suspect make up a fairly large chunk of your audience)
I, for one, would never want to play Trackmania with the keyboard ever again... and that's PC only if you ignore the recent Nintendo DS port.
np: Tosca - Slow Hell (Session 6) (Dehli9 (Disc 2))
But it really depends, I currently play Drakensang and there the WSAD, mouse control scheme works really well (they also have point and click only as well additionally, but it does not work as well as the wsad combination)
But since this game is a party based RPG I dont really see how a pad could bring additional comfort, especialls since they managed to pull off the free floating camera controls quite nice!
That is so precisely what I meant I couldn't help but chuckle
I don't think the WAG controls are terrible, they just feel less convenient / accessible than previous Telltale games, which I held in very high regard for the way they handled mouse control and camera angles. I'm guessing the change was brought in as a result of the tight environs of the house, which is fair enough, certainly mouse control would require some different camera angles.
For me selecting items on-screen is the biggest barrier to keyboard-only control. I just fired the game up to double-check, and I find that more often than not when I walk up to an item, nothing gets highlighted. Seems I can press E to switch between items - I didn't realise that when playing previously (not in the tutorial?) but still, clicking is still quicker and easier.
Oh, and the backseat director in me likes to make everything look as smooth as possible so 8 directional keyboard control doesn't cut it
Having had a good whinge, I should point out that I thought the WAG games so far have been excellent, and if I have to put up with sitting up straight and resting the refreshing beverage of my choice on the desk, then so be it!
Telltale should just use point and click for the PC versions and give the console versions their own control system then everybody would be happy and we could play the adventure games on our PC how we have always played them and the way that works the best.
I don't know why people keep saying this when it's been refuted time and time again.