My suggestions: It would be nice to use the Right Trigger as another alternative to A/Left Mouse Button (for a simple "point and shoot" mechanic that should seem relatively familiar to a 360 pad owner).
Unless I'm totally mistaken, pushing the right stick (like a button) does exactly that.
(Disclaimer: I'm at work, so I could well be mistaken... but I do know that it does SOMETHING... )
Personally, I always liked to control adventure games using the mouse only, so you do not need to sit straight at your desk for several hours, right hand on the mouse, left on the keyboard (or vice versa), but you can just lean back and still have one hand free to grab some potato chips or a drink while playing. - Therefore I would really appreciate if Telltale would get back to the Sam&Max-style control for future games. Thanks.
Well, might I recommend using a gamepad?
Alternatively - how about adding an on-screen keyboard you can click on?
I do own a gamepad, but 1) it would still be impossible to play using one hand only, 2) my hardware does not seem to be supported by the game and 3) why invest in new hardware just because Telltale decided to proceed with a control scheme I do not like anyway?
I have to say I got used to the control (I used the arrow-keys). But still I would have prefered the old approach. (clicking to where you want to go.
In the demo I was trying to get Wallace moving a lot with the mouse.
In the full gamy I only tried that once.
It is great for everyone who wants to use a gamepad.
And I actually did not have the problem of walking to some unwanted position because I did not hit an object when I was clicking. That really was a big plus for the new controls.
Though there are several statements that you get used to the new scheme quickly, the number of replies of people who really prefer to use the keyboard control is very low!
Satisfied players rarely stop in the middle of a game they're playing and feel compelled to join a forum and post about it. Contrast this with people who have complaints.
The scientific term for this is "self-selection bias".
Satisfied players rarely stop in the middle of a game they're playing and feel compelled to join a forum and post about it. Contrast this with people who have complaints.
Agreed. - But it was you who had chosen to get feedback on the new control scheme through this forum, so what exactly had you expected?
If you want more representative feedback you might include a quick poll in your next newsletter and have a price drawing (for example offer some store credit) among all participants, so everybody is motivated to provide feedback.
Agreed. - But it was you who had chosen to get feedback on the new control scheme through this forum, so what exactly had you expected?
This is pretty close to what I was expecting.
The previous post was just to make the point that forums (like other groups that have self-selected) aren't appropriate samples to base an argument on.
They are, however, useful in gathering the faults people have with the control scheme, and find people with undesirable odds and ends that might be fixed. Which I'm assuming was Yare's actual goal.
They are, however, useful in gathering the faults people have with the control scheme, and find people with undesirable odds and ends that might be fixed.
OK this issue appears to be confined to the demo, controller works fine in full game, and is definitely my preferred way of playing the game.
Whoops, I didn't think to check again. Good to know for next time. I like the implementation of the right stick, but I especially like the way the d-pad is utilized. Makes it very easy to use stuff on other stuff.
If your mouse feels unresponsive, it is most likely because you have your graphics settings up a bit too high. If you turn them down a bit, you will find that the mouse becomes much more responsive.
My computer is the latest spec and the controls are still unresponsive until you bring the level down to 4 and then what is the point of expensive hardware?
Um, I don't really mind the new controls? I mean, I'm not a hardcore gamer, or adventure gamer, so I never played Grim Fandango or Monkey Island, so I have no idea what you guys are talking about, but I got used to the hybrid system pretty quickly. Even my mom got used it almost instantly, and if anything, she seemed to find it easier than using just a mouse (or wii remote). Then again, her gaming experience is pretty much limited to SBCG4AP, spider solitaire and Columns for the Sega Master system. Maybe the new control system is easier to use the more of a n00b you are?
Oh I forgot: On the market place I left the scenery several times unintentionally when I tried to get to the the shakeable pipe. (I have no idea what it is called in english.) That was really annoying.
I really didn't like it at first, it reminded me of Monkey Island 4, which I hated mostly for it's controls.
MI4's problem was poor item placement and collision detection. There's no guarantee that Telltale will avoid these problems throughout the season, but they're not problems that are inherent to keyboard controls.
To the TT guys posting here.... thanks for implementing KB only controls (love that) and for bothering to respond, even to the stick-in-the-muds.
Satisfied players rarely stop in the middle of a game they're playing and feel compelled to join a forum and post about it. Contrast this with people who have complaints.
The scientific term for this is "self-selection bias".
While this is true, people who lose interest in the game after playing the demo also rarely feel compelled to join a forum and post about it.
People who have played previous TT games are more likely to post here, and of course what you write fully applies to that group too. But is not entirely unreasonable that people who played previous TT games got used to the control scheme used there, and prefer it over others.
Because I like to play FPSs quite a bit, the control scheme seemed natural and familiar to me. I liked the whole system, and at one point I was feeling curious, so I picked up my Xbox 360 Wired Controller and had a fiddle about. I thought this worked well and I can see how this would work on XBLA.
All in all, I think that this control system works well, and I can't wait for Sam and Max on XBLA.
Well, i finished the game, and what can I say is even if the controls in the first seconds scared me, within a minute I accepted it. And in fact, I find it perfect.
My only complaint is about the "wheel" inventory. It takes me several times before I remmeber there was an inventory "window" typing "I", and seeing there is more objetcs than just with the wheel (like the map or the remote). Maybe an icon on the main window game could replace the non-ergonomic "find yourself the button lil fish brain" or at least, second it.
Oh, and I'm a bit disappointed by the lack of possible observations... in every game you can first look at things before taking them (or using them). There, you can only do one action. It's too bad to lose a lot of funny lines by the way...
But as I've always been against keyboard controls, the idea to mix (or let mix) keyboard to walk and mouse to click is a very good surprise.
I'm suprised about the number of complaints about keyboard movement. Let's all pause for a moment and think about this logically.
The reason mouse movement works in traditional adventure games is because everything is accessible from the same field of view. In 2D, you either had a discrete viewport that didn't change, or a few screens stuck together in a panning shot. For scenes that needed more depth, the best you could do was compensate by adding glowing "doorways" at the bottom of the scene so the player could walk into/through the camera. Dodgy enough in 2D and headache-inducing in 3D.
From what I can tell, the art direction for the Sam and Max/Strong Bad games meant that it was possible to model their respective universes entirely with little-to-no scene depth. Strong Bad's house for instance, is cleverly designed to be one shoebox-style 2D cutaway, allowing the camera to move between rooms with one single panning shot. The main street in Sam and Max is linear, with everything happening on one side of the sidewalk. The big field in Strong Bad is laid out so that the camera can pan around the edge in a very wide circle; even if some landmarks are diametrically opposite you can't walk through the camera to get to them.
W&G on the other hand has scene depth in spades, and therefore there are areas which can't be reduced to a wide 2D panning shot. A good example of where the panning model isn't practical is the corridor of Wallace's house. It's shown in the game as it appears in the films: you've got the front door, dining room to the left, living room to the right, staircase and kitchen to the back, and a basement door beneath the staircase.
If you think about it, it's physically impossible to address all of these doorways with wide panning given the space. To get from the front door to the kitchen you need to tightly rotate the camera; under mouse movement there would be a lapse in control towards the middle of the hallway requiring messy clicking. With keyboard, you can just hold the down arrow.
I'm sure there are better examples, but try imagining W&G restricted to a scene depth-less art style and you'll find plenty of scenes that wouldn't work as well. After finishing the episode, I'd say the keyboard is a more natural way to navigate a 3D world with depth. (My main gripe was with the fiddly scroll buttons on the inventory, it never occured to me to try the mousewheel.)
Can't get my head past the controls. Trust me guys, adding a p'n'c control system will improve controls for future episodes.
I will say with some confidence that point-and-click will not be added to future episodes of W&G. Bug fixes and tweaks to direct control will find their way in throughout the season, though.
But maybe TTG just has problems implementing a well working pathfinding algorithm for such scenes, isn't fond of setting up waypoints or defining walkable areas, not interested in maintaining two steering options (computer vs. console), too much time, who knows, because as long as i can click on something it's a lot easier navigating this way instead of pressing your keys to death and running the, for those keyboard steerings typical, zigzags or bumping into objects with the afterwards short distance beams.
Grim Fandango, Monkey Island 4, Broken Sword 3 and and ..., all failed and it never worked as well as a mouse point&click. Again, it's well implemented but still can't compete with a mouse steering. As an option, yes, as the only steering solution, nope.
I was thinking about buying W&G although they aren't characters i really would have liked to see but with just the keyboard steering in there it's just not working out, so i'm hoping for Sam&Max3 instead.
I think having to use the keyboard in Wallace unlike S&M is a step backwards for Telltale. Also, unless I'm mistaken there's no way to save more than one game in Bees. I'm not thrilled with this game so far.
Danesh, you are mistaken. There are four "bookmark" tabs you can save to, I don't know why you don't see them? Under "Your Game" and "Bookmarks"?
Unless I am reading you wrong.
On another note, I find "R" for inventory to feel the most uncomfortable. If I was mapping it, I would have used "F". Since it's not used for anything else, could that be an alternate inventory key?
I do have to say I didn't like the new controls very much and at first I thought
something was wrong with my mouse because I skipped the tutorial not knowing
of the change to controls. I figured it out with the arrow keys and then the
wasd arrows and the buttons for items and such, but the controls are still pretty bad. I loved the story tho good job on that part telltale you captured Wallace & Gromit perfectly there.
Danesh, you are mistaken. There are four "bookmark" tabs you can save to, I don't know why you don't see them? Under "Your Game" and "Bookmarks"?
Unless I am reading you wrong.
On another note, I find "R" for inventory to feel the most uncomfortable. If I was mapping it, I would have used "F". Since it's not used for anything else, could that be an alternate inventory key?
I think he doesn't know that you have to hit esc to bring up the menu
also shift can be used for the inventory and tab will highlight clickables.
Well, I finished the game earlier today and withdraw the reservations I had about the control system (In fact, if Grim Fandango had the same system, I'd play it again).
I did like the fact that there were duplicate controls when using keyboard and mouse. I mostly stuck to wasd moving and using the mouse for the rest (middle click for inventory was pretty natural for me), although I did use the tab highlight option once or twice.
Well, I finished the game earlier today and withdraw the reservations I had about the control system (In fact, if Grim Fandango had the same system, I'd play it again).
I did like the fact that there were duplicate controls when using keyboard and mouse. I mostly stuck to wasd moving and using the mouse for the rest (middle click for inventory was pretty natural for me), although I did use the tab highlight option once or twice.
Three thumbs up for W&G:FotB.
I always forget a button is there so that will be handy to know when the next wallace and gromit game comes out. Not that shift was that hard with it being a pinky away, but it will be nicer.
I'm the engineer responsible for the controls. After you folks play through the demo, I'd like to hear your initial impressions and nitpicks about the control scheme. Then I'd like to hear from you again after you've played through a full episode or two.
Not sure if a readme for controls shipped with the demo, but here's some stuff anyway:
If the inventory is closed, mouse wheel will cycle through your inventory items.
If the inventory is open, and you have a bunch of inventory items, mouse wheel will scroll the inventory.
The game can be played entirely with the keyboard.
Q and E cycle through selectable items on screen.
Hold Tab to make all the selectable items on screen stand out.
Shift opens your inventory.
Space activates items.
Control skips dialog and backs out of closeups.
And uhhh... there's probably other stuff I'll post when I remember. We mapped keys everywhere to try and give you guys as many options as possible.
I played the demo and I just don't like the control system.
I understand you can play it entirely with the keyboard, and I have tried after finding the keyboard/mouse combo to be pretty frustrating. But in the end I'm just yearning for point and click.
I've played both Sam and Max seasons, and Strong Bad. I'd love to see a "classic" control system added, as it's faithful to your previous seasons of games.
As of right now, this game brings back memories of Broken Sword 3, which quickly became my least favorite of the 4 just because of the control system. While I've played through Broken Sword 1,2 and 4 many many times over the years, I've only played through Broken Sword 3 once.
At the end of the day, I'm balancing my frustration with the control system, with my enjoyment of the game and I feel that balancing the two is already compromising the potential of this season. I am glad I bought the season, I just don't want to look back on this game as another "Broken Sword 3"... GIVE US POINT AND CLICK! PLEASE!
While I'm fine with the controls, I really HATE the load/save system (which took me a while to figure out)... why the bookmark- and "your game"-thing? Why not a simple save-slot window like in S&M?
While I'm fine with the controls, I really HATE the load/save system (which took me a while to figure out)... why the bookmark- and "your game"-thing? Why not a simple save-slot window like in S&M?
It was an attempt to make something that would combine the simplicity of console autosave/continue systems while still allowing micromanagement for people more familiar with PC save/load systems.
Personally, I just let the game autosave and then I continue from the Your Game slot next time.
Yesterday i met some friends and we also had a short discussion about adventures and W&G's steering came up as well (no one really liked it btw). What i found remarkable is that at some point in the conversation i realised that if someone would have told me that...
During the conversation a somehow familiar voice in my head raised up. "Hey, don't be confused, it's me, i mean you, just from the future!" and i have good and bad news for you. There will be more adventures done by reunited ex LucasArts designers in the future, so much for the good, but listen buddy you won't enjoy or even buy them anymore."
I would have never believed myself and said something like "What?! Am i (completely) nuts in the future, blind, ran out of money?" and thought if it's the money i'll somehow get a copy and if i have to rob a bank or two or even worse ask my parents for some money. No, there must be another way. Interrupting my bubbling up thoughts on how to get money my futuristic me corrected me "No, well at least i'm not aware of any of this yet but it's just that they stopped inventing original content and instead stick to licences now. They even reintroduced the keyboard steering." "Eyeyey, give me a break, keyboard steering? Okay, this must be somekind of a joke, next you gonna tell me that there will be annoying time triggered mini games in there as well or that you can even die in their adventures and savegames will be replaced by badly choosen automatic savepoints. Or, hah, even no more inventory puzzles!" The voice in my head, somehow beeing disturbed mumbled something like "No time left, these time calls get rather expensive these days" leaving my head again with an echoing out "You'll see!".
Kai asked me "Taumel? Everything alright?" and i doubtfully, slightly disoriented answered, "No, not really."
It was an attempt to make something that would combine the simplicity of console autosave/continue systems while still allowing micromanagement for people more familiar with PC save/load systems.
I think the Sam and Max game management method was just perfect. Can we have it back? Please?
It was an attempt to make something that would combine the simplicity of console autosave/continue systems while still allowing micromanagement for people more familiar with PC save/load systems.
Personally, I just let the game autosave and then I continue from the Your Game slot next time.
But didn't S&M work the same way? The first save slot was the autosave, while the others were freely usable... just with less "radomly clicking on buttons". Having it all in one screen should be perfectly alright.
Somehow I have the feeling that for W&G you just wanted to make everything different... if it made sense or not. "It's another game, and we want it to not remind people of the other games." C'mon, don't try to force a fix on something that wasn't broken in the first place. You don't have to reinvent the wheel all the time... especially if the wheel is replaced by some square block.
I played the demo and I just don't like the control system.
I understand you can play it entirely with the keyboard, and I have tried after finding the keyboard/mouse combo to be pretty frustrating. But in the end I'm just yearning for point and click.
After trying it with the keyboard, and then a Gamepad, I can tell it's been designed with the pad in mind. It just feels so natural.
I do feel a bit bad though, as most PC owners won't have a pad to play with and will naturally be upset.
May I make a suggestion? How about also mapping the inventory and the show items abilities to MOUSE 3 and MOUSE 4, and then implementing some sort of "follow the cursor if it moves close to the edge of the screen" system for walking?
Then you'd eliminate the need for the keyboard completely.
Comments
(Disclaimer: I'm at work, so I could well be mistaken... but I do know that it does SOMETHING...
Alternatively - how about adding an on-screen keyboard you can click on?
In the demo I was trying to get Wallace moving a lot with the mouse.
In the full gamy I only tried that once.
It is great for everyone who wants to use a gamepad.
And I actually did not have the problem of walking to some unwanted position because I did not hit an object when I was clicking. That really was a big plus for the new controls.
Satisfied players rarely stop in the middle of a game they're playing and feel compelled to join a forum and post about it. Contrast this with people who have complaints.
The scientific term for this is "self-selection bias".
If you want more representative feedback you might include a quick poll in your next newsletter and have a price drawing (for example offer some store credit) among all participants, so everybody is motivated to provide feedback.
This is pretty close to what I was expecting.
The previous post was just to make the point that forums (like other groups that have self-selected) aren't appropriate samples to base an argument on.
Indeed.
Whoops, I didn't think to check again. Good to know for next time. I like the implementation of the right stick, but I especially like the way the d-pad is utilized. Makes it very easy to use stuff on other stuff.
The only real issue I had was with Grommit getting stuck behind fountain. I had to move him back and forth to get him out since I couldn't see him.
Other than that it was ok,although I kept forgetting to use ASWD and trying to move with a mouse.
My computer is the latest spec and the controls are still unresponsive until you bring the level down to 4 and then what is the point of expensive hardware?
MI4's problem was poor item placement and collision detection. There's no guarantee that Telltale will avoid these problems throughout the season, but they're not problems that are inherent to keyboard controls.
To the TT guys posting here.... thanks for implementing KB only controls (love that) and for bothering to respond, even to the stick-in-the-muds.
While this is true, people who lose interest in the game after playing the demo also rarely feel compelled to join a forum and post about it.
People who have played previous TT games are more likely to post here, and of course what you write fully applies to that group too. But is not entirely unreasonable that people who played previous TT games got used to the control scheme used there, and prefer it over others.
All in all, I think that this control system works well, and I can't wait for Sam and Max on XBLA.
My only complaint is about the "wheel" inventory. It takes me several times before I remmeber there was an inventory "window" typing "I", and seeing there is more objetcs than just with the wheel (like the map or the remote). Maybe an icon on the main window game could replace the non-ergonomic "find yourself the button lil fish brain" or at least, second it.
Oh, and I'm a bit disappointed by the lack of possible observations... in every game you can first look at things before taking them (or using them). There, you can only do one action. It's too bad to lose a lot of funny lines by the way...
But as I've always been against keyboard controls, the idea to mix (or let mix) keyboard to walk and mouse to click is a very good surprise.
The reason mouse movement works in traditional adventure games is because everything is accessible from the same field of view. In 2D, you either had a discrete viewport that didn't change, or a few screens stuck together in a panning shot. For scenes that needed more depth, the best you could do was compensate by adding glowing "doorways" at the bottom of the scene so the player could walk into/through the camera. Dodgy enough in 2D and headache-inducing in 3D.
From what I can tell, the art direction for the Sam and Max/Strong Bad games meant that it was possible to model their respective universes entirely with little-to-no scene depth. Strong Bad's house for instance, is cleverly designed to be one shoebox-style 2D cutaway, allowing the camera to move between rooms with one single panning shot. The main street in Sam and Max is linear, with everything happening on one side of the sidewalk. The big field in Strong Bad is laid out so that the camera can pan around the edge in a very wide circle; even if some landmarks are diametrically opposite you can't walk through the camera to get to them.
W&G on the other hand has scene depth in spades, and therefore there are areas which can't be reduced to a wide 2D panning shot. A good example of where the panning model isn't practical is the corridor of Wallace's house. It's shown in the game as it appears in the films: you've got the front door, dining room to the left, living room to the right, staircase and kitchen to the back, and a basement door beneath the staircase.
If you think about it, it's physically impossible to address all of these doorways with wide panning given the space. To get from the front door to the kitchen you need to tightly rotate the camera; under mouse movement there would be a lapse in control towards the middle of the hallway requiring messy clicking. With keyboard, you can just hold the down arrow.
I'm sure there are better examples, but try imagining W&G restricted to a scene depth-less art style and you'll find plenty of scenes that wouldn't work as well. After finishing the episode, I'd say the keyboard is a more natural way to navigate a 3D world with depth. (My main gripe was with the fiddly scroll buttons on the inventory, it never occured to me to try the mousewheel.)
I will say with some confidence that point-and-click will not be added to future episodes of W&G. Bug fixes and tweaks to direct control will find their way in throughout the season, though.
Grim Fandango, Monkey Island 4, Broken Sword 3 and and ..., all failed and it never worked as well as a mouse point&click. Again, it's well implemented but still can't compete with a mouse steering. As an option, yes, as the only steering solution, nope.
I was thinking about buying W&G although they aren't characters i really would have liked to see but with just the keyboard steering in there it's just not working out, so i'm hoping for Sam&Max3 instead.
Unless I am reading you wrong.
On another note, I find "R" for inventory to feel the most uncomfortable. If I was mapping it, I would have used "F". Since it's not used for anything else, could that be an alternate inventory key?
something was wrong with my mouse because I skipped the tutorial not knowing
of the change to controls. I figured it out with the arrow keys and then the
wasd arrows and the buttons for items and such, but the controls are still pretty bad. I loved the story tho good job on that part telltale you captured Wallace & Gromit perfectly there.
I think he doesn't know that you have to hit esc to bring up the menu
also shift can be used for the inventory and tab will highlight clickables.
I did like the fact that there were duplicate controls when using keyboard and mouse. I mostly stuck to wasd moving and using the mouse for the rest (middle click for inventory was pretty natural for me), although I did use the tab highlight option once or twice.
Three thumbs up for W&G:FotB.
I played the demo and I just don't like the control system.
I understand you can play it entirely with the keyboard, and I have tried after finding the keyboard/mouse combo to be pretty frustrating. But in the end I'm just yearning for point and click.
I've played both Sam and Max seasons, and Strong Bad. I'd love to see a "classic" control system added, as it's faithful to your previous seasons of games.
As of right now, this game brings back memories of Broken Sword 3, which quickly became my least favorite of the 4 just because of the control system. While I've played through Broken Sword 1,2 and 4 many many times over the years, I've only played through Broken Sword 3 once.
At the end of the day, I'm balancing my frustration with the control system, with my enjoyment of the game and I feel that balancing the two is already compromising the potential of this season. I am glad I bought the season, I just don't want to look back on this game as another "Broken Sword 3"... GIVE US POINT AND CLICK! PLEASE!
It was an attempt to make something that would combine the simplicity of console autosave/continue systems while still allowing micromanagement for people more familiar with PC save/load systems.
Personally, I just let the game autosave and then I continue from the Your Game slot next time.
I'm sorry, but you're not going to see point-and-click for this or any other Wallace & Gromit episode.
During the conversation a somehow familiar voice in my head raised up. "Hey, don't be confused, it's me, i mean you, just from the future!" and i have good and bad news for you. There will be more adventures done by reunited ex LucasArts designers in the future, so much for the good, but listen buddy you won't enjoy or even buy them anymore."
I would have never believed myself and said something like "What?! Am i (completely) nuts in the future, blind, ran out of money?" and thought if it's the money i'll somehow get a copy and if i have to rob a bank or two or even worse ask my parents for some money. No, there must be another way. Interrupting my bubbling up thoughts on how to get money my futuristic me corrected me "No, well at least i'm not aware of any of this yet but it's just that they stopped inventing original content and instead stick to licences now. They even reintroduced the keyboard steering." "Eyeyey, give me a break, keyboard steering? Okay, this must be somekind of a joke, next you gonna tell me that there will be annoying time triggered mini games in there as well or that you can even die in their adventures and savegames will be replaced by badly choosen automatic savepoints. Or, hah, even no more inventory puzzles!" The voice in my head, somehow beeing disturbed mumbled something like "No time left, these time calls get rather expensive these days" leaving my head again with an echoing out "You'll see!".
Kai asked me "Taumel? Everything alright?" and i doubtfully, slightly disoriented answered, "No, not really."
I think the Sam and Max game management method was just perfect. Can we have it back? Please?
Somehow I have the feeling that for W&G you just wanted to make everything different... if it made sense or not. "It's another game, and we want it to not remind people of the other games." C'mon, don't try to force a fix on something that wasn't broken in the first place. You don't have to reinvent the wheel all the time... especially if the wheel is replaced by some square block.
After trying it with the keyboard, and then a Gamepad, I can tell it's been designed with the pad in mind. It just feels so natural.
I do feel a bit bad though, as most PC owners won't have a pad to play with and will naturally be upset.
May I make a suggestion? How about also mapping the inventory and the show items abilities to MOUSE 3 and MOUSE 4, and then implementing some sort of "follow the cursor if it moves close to the edge of the screen" system for walking?
Then you'd eliminate the need for the keyboard completely.
This system becomes troublesome when switching camera angles -suddenly or gradually.