I don't know why people keep saying this when it's been refuted time and time again.
Oh come on, why else would they change the controls from something that worked perfectly for every other one of their episodic games, to something more joypad friendly, at the same time they put out a game developed simultaniously for the 360?
Oh come on, why else would they change the controls from something that worked perfectly for every other one of their episodic games, to something more joypad friendly, at the same time they put out a game developed simultaniously for the 360?
There's at least half a dozen reasons listed in this thread alone. I'd suggest you read it through.
It's like this, nobody had any problem with Sam And Max or Strongbads point and click controls. ... The new system has a lot of people complaining.
Ratios are pretty meaningless. Businesses live or die based on sales, not what percent of people complain about the game. A game might have nobody complaining about it but only sell 100 copies, or there may be a "lot of people complaining" about it but it sells 10,000 copies.
Ratios are pretty meaningless. Businesses live or die based on sales, not what percent of people complain about the game. A game might have nobody complaining about it but only sell 100 copies, or there may be a "lot of people complaining" about it but it sells 10,000 copies.
That said, I'm not privy to our sales numbers.
I'm guessing Sam And Max has sold better than Wallace And Gromit
Also, surely the people complaining may not affect sales of the current product that introduced this system, but there's every chance if you use it for your next series people might be a little hesitant to be so quick to pay.
Then again, like you, I'm not privy to the sales numbers
There's at least half a dozen reasons listed in this thread alone. I'd suggest you read it through.
To be honest, I've not read any that really convince me otherwise.
A new control system was obviously needed for the console version, that goes without saying, but you can't tell me a game like WaG or indeed any adventure game on the pc doesn't work best when using a simple point and click ala Sam And Max and there is nothing in any of the WaG episodes so far which wouldn't have been more comfortable using a mouse. Even the whirlpool scene at the end of Last Resort would have been comfortable using mouse.
If Telltale want to go foward with this control scheme with ToMI and future seasons of Sam and Max, I'm not sure if I'll be going along with them after ToMI unless they refine it to something that isn't awkward to control your character as the current system is on keyboard.
Don't get me wrong, I love WaG, especially the new episode. I just feel it could have been so much more user friendly with a full mouse control scheme.
A game might have nobody complaining about it but only sell 100 copies, or there may be a "lot of people complaining" about it but it sells 10,000 copies.
And this is exactly why I do not plan to buy TMI, but play some of the old Monkey Island games instead.
To be honest, I've not read any that really convince me otherwise.
I'm quite grown to the closer shooting of the W&G scenes now - it feels much more organic this way. And I can imagine that it's difficult to come up with a mouse-only scheme that works well in such an environment. I'm not sure how much compromise would have to be made on the camera angles to make a p&c solution convenient, and I was challenging this for a while - but in the end, I believe that TTG-Yare has checked a multitude of options, and if he found one that was generally convenient and intuitive, then he would have gone for it.
Also, I recently replayed one of the earlier Sam & Max episodes. It's generally fine with point and click, but when walking on the street outside the office, it was more than once that I reached for the keyboard as the constant clicking became a bit tedious.
One more comment on the "almost unlimited new possibilities" the new control scheme offers: While playing "Muzzled!" I wondered what the market place would look like if you look at it from a bird's eye perspective. - It seems to me that the police station and Mr. Paneer's shop should be very close to each other, as you walk around the fountain in the middle on your way from A to B. But why isn't it possible then to pass by the police station and enter the scene at Paneer's shop again? You need to go back the same way instead.
I'm quite grown to the closer shooting of the W&G scenes now - it feels much more organic this way. And I can imagine that it's difficult to come up with a mouse-only scheme that works well in such an environment. I'm not sure how much compromise would have to be made on the camera angles to make a p&c solution convenient, and I was challenging this for a while - but in the end, I believe that TTG-Yare has checked a multitude of options, and if he found one that was generally convenient and intuitive, then he would have gone for it.
Also, I recently replayed one of the earlier Sam & Max episodes. It's generally fine with point and click, but when walking on the street outside the office, it was more than once that I reached for the keyboard as the constant clicking became a bit tedious.
Even with the new tight angles, mouse control still would have been possible and for me, the better solution. There have been plenty of adventure games with tight angles and it always worked fine.
Even with the new tight angles, mouse control still would have been possible and for me, the better solution. There have been plenty of adventure games with tight angles and it always worked fine.
I can't recall any - but then again, I missed a lot of games between 2000 and 2006. Gimme a few examples and I check them out, okay?
I can't recall any - but then again, I missed a lot of games between 2000 and 2006. Gimme a few examples and I check them out, okay?
1. A Vampire Story
2. So Blond
3. Wanted:- A Wild West Adventure.
That's 3 off the top of my head, I know they are not full 3d adventures, but the concept of being able to mouse click in a cramped close environment applies.
I was going to say Dreamfall, but I think that's keyboard controlled
1. A Vampire Story
2. So Blond
3. Wanted:- A Wild West Adventure.
That's 3 off the top of my head, I know they are not full 3d adventures, but the concept of being able to mouse click in a cramped close environment applies.
I was going to say Dreamfall, but I think that's keyboard controlled
OK, haven't seen any, I'll check at least one out.
Yes, Dreamfall is keyboard controlled - and it didn't really have composed shots while playing, it was free 3D.
There's at least half a dozen reasons listed in this thread alone.
The "big" reason being the more "cinematic" camera angles the new control scheme allow, which - judging by the first two episodes - is a load of crap.
Pretty much all movement inside any one scene happens on one axis (left-right) and while movement on the other (in-out) is present, it doesn't actually make any difference. And since hotspots are clickable and movement in essentially constrained to one axis, it would've been a simple matter to have a control system where if the player clicks anywhere on screen that isn't a hotspot, the character starts to move in that direction (and the camera tracks the character). Hell, this would probably have allowed for even more "cinematic" (which in Telltale's definition seems to be synonymous with close-up) camera angles than what was used in the first two episodes and it would only have limited an apparent freedom of movement that in reality isn't even there.
The "big" reason being the more "cinematic" camera angles the new control scheme allow, which - judging by the first two episodes - is a load of crap.
Pretty much all movement inside any one scene happens on one axis (left-right) and while movement on the other (in-out) is present, it doesn't actually make any difference. And since hotspots are clickable and movement in essentially constrained to one axis, it would've been a simple matter to have a control system where if the player clicks anywhere on screen that isn't a hotspot, the character starts to move in that direction (and the camera tracks the character). Hell, this would probably have allowed for even more "cinematic" (which in Telltale's definition seems to be synonymous with close-up) camera angles than what was used in the first two episodes and it would only have limited an apparent freedom of movement that in reality isn't even there.
Let's not confuse close-up with closer-to-the-action. We're used to large scenic screens in adventure games, and W&G's smaller screens felt quite strange initially, but I grew to like them. Still, most of the screens aren't close-ups.
If I understand correctly how you think about the mouse control, it would work, but it would be rather inaccurate. I'm afraid it would annoy me to no end.
If you have specific feedback about things like the layout or key bindings that would help get the controls closer to being "right", that information would be nice to have. Improvements based on your feedback might even make it in to MI or future titles!
I'm hoping for configurable keymappings like EMI had. That might take care of some of the complaints in this thread.
Also, isn't there such a thing as a hardware sprite/mouse pointer in all reasonably modern gfx cards? I'm asking because with the gfx settings turned to max in Sam&Max the mouse pointer would lag horribly, but once I clicked somewhere, animation and everything was smooth. Even if the mouse pointer would be ugly I'd still prefer it to be responsive.
it would work, but it would be rather inaccurate. I'm afraid it would annoy me to no end.
This is exactly how I feel about the keyboard control scheme. It works, but is inaccurate for the character movement (getting stuck on scenery and invisible walls) and it really does annoy me. I guess I'll just always feel the best way to play an adventure is point and click in the same way I always prefer to play action games via keybaord and mouse rather than a gamepad. It's what I'm used to, it works and does not need changing.
Oh come on, why else would they change the controls from something that worked perfectly for every other one of their episodic games, to something more joypad friendly, at the same time they put out a game developed simultaniously for the 360?
Let's be clear about this. It was more work to rip the half-functional point-and-click out of the PC version of W&G and write a special version of direct control with movement smoothing than it would have been to just leave the broken point-and-click controls in there. The PC control needs for W&G were evaluated and developed for what works best, not some imaginary time savings.
This is exactly how I feel about the keyboard control scheme. It works, but is inaccurate for the character movement (getting stuck on scenery and invisible walls) and it really does annoy me. I guess I'll just always feel the best way to play an adventure is point and click in the same way I always prefer to play action games via keybaord and mouse rather than a gamepad. It's what I'm used to, it works and does not need changing.
Yes, I'm also a slave to my habits, and I feel most comfortable with a p&c interface. However, Telltale is trying something different with W&G, and I'm interested in how it will work out. Despite Grim Fandango, EfMI and the numeroues mixed control action adventures, I think these grounds are still rather experimental - as long as the game content is high quality, I'm willing to make a compromise on convenience
It's still going on because it's still something people care about, ESPECIALLY with Monkey Island coming out.
One thing I didn't like was the inventory. The only comfortable thing I found was clicking the mouse wheel, which requires me to not use(for example) a laptop trackpad. Could it be possible to add an icon for the inventory, or to move the inventory opening key to "F"? Not sure why "Shift is as uncomfortable as it is, but "R" doesn't work for me because it requires a stretch upward for such a common action. Especially since revealing selectable objects would work really nicely with the Shift key.
Okay, I've gone through and played pretty much two episodes of Wallace and Gromit back to back.
I think the mouse is actually set up perfectly. It's the inventory and show all selectable objects buttons that make it uncomfortable. Another thing is that it doesn't close the inventory when I try to walk, and I've found myself accidentally turning on the inventory and being "stuck".
With inventory moved to "F" or(even better) getting an icon on-screen to click(maybe something to toggle on and off?) would be best. If the inventory got an on-screen icon, then show all items could be moved to "F" with the inventory getting Shift and the icon?
Playing two episodes in a row really made me appreciate the mouse layout, it's really actually done very well. It's just using the keyboard for interactions other than walking that is troublesome, and that's the "something" that made the controls not sit right with me before.
Sorry for posting twice on more or less the same issue in such a short timeframe.
It's still going on because it's still something people care about, ESPECIALLY with Monkey Island coming out.
I wasn't really talking about you there, reading your posts I think they're quite well written.
I was more thinking that I wish people would actually give Telltale more of a chance on this before bashing them for things that they can't quickly change.
I don't think they have too much of an ability to change the interface between episodes of the same series, so we might have to wait until Monkey Island is actually out before we get the results.
As for me, using a gamepad I found the controls quite enjoyable.
What bites me most here is to have had to use a third-party software to be able to use my pad, and waste time inventing a proper enjoyable mapping (my request to have a list of the designed button mapping has never been answered).
In other words: ok for the controls as they are on the PC, but - PLEASE - PRETTY PLEASE - PRETTY PRETTY PLEASE WITH SUGAR ON TOP - support all DirectInput pads instead of just XInput ones.
Gozzo, have you tried running Muzzled without using that third-party software? I was pleasantly surprised to notice my cheap no-brand gamepad suddenly being supported directly.
Gozzo, have you tried running Muzzled without using that third-party software? I was pleasantly surprised to notice my cheap no-brand gamepad suddenly being supported directly.
I was more thinking that I wish people would actually give Telltale more of a chance on this before bashing them for things that they can't quickly change.
I'm not bashing them for not being able to change the controls back to point and click. I realise this series is too far gone now to be able to quickly implement new controls.
No, I was just trying to point out what I feel is an unnecessary change from the previous control scheme of point and click. I am happy to hear that ToMI is implementing full mouse control for movement as well as keyboard for those that prefer it. This says to me it was possible to keep the mouse control in the game from the off, albeit slightly changed with the drag to walk mechanic ToMI will employ, but full mouse control. Which kind of makes what I was saying all along right, point and click is still viable as a control scheme in these games.
I enjoy the controls, but being able to tab during the turret action, to see the hit-boxes, would have been nice. It took a while for "Shoot the gnome's sign" to register, and I STILL can't open the garage door.
I might just be an idiot and couldn't find it, but I only had one problem with he controls: there doesn't seem to be a run button. In Sam & Max and Strong Bad you could double click to get across a screen faster, but I really wish I could run in W&G
I might just be an idiot and couldn't find it, but I only had one problem with he controls: there doesn't seem to be a run button. In Sam & Max and Strong Bad you could double click to get across a screen faster, but I really wish I could run in W&G
I agree with this. I was replaying Escape From Monkey Island recently, as a result, while playing W&G I found myself hitting shift in a futile attempt to run.
Personally I do not miss that, as the locations are very limited, so you do not have to walk a lot to get from A to B. - In the first episode you even get a map to "magically transport" you from A to B directly.
Comments
Oh come on, why else would they change the controls from something that worked perfectly for every other one of their episodic games, to something more joypad friendly, at the same time they put out a game developed simultaniously for the 360?
There's at least half a dozen reasons listed in this thread alone. I'd suggest you read it through.
Ratios are pretty meaningless. Businesses live or die based on sales, not what percent of people complain about the game. A game might have nobody complaining about it but only sell 100 copies, or there may be a "lot of people complaining" about it but it sells 10,000 copies.
That said, I'm not privy to our sales numbers.
I'm guessing Sam And Max has sold better than Wallace And Gromit
Also, surely the people complaining may not affect sales of the current product that introduced this system, but there's every chance if you use it for your next series people might be a little hesitant to be so quick to pay.
Then again, like you, I'm not privy to the sales numbers
To be honest, I've not read any that really convince me otherwise.
A new control system was obviously needed for the console version, that goes without saying, but you can't tell me a game like WaG or indeed any adventure game on the pc doesn't work best when using a simple point and click ala Sam And Max and there is nothing in any of the WaG episodes so far which wouldn't have been more comfortable using a mouse. Even the whirlpool scene at the end of Last Resort would have been comfortable using mouse.
If Telltale want to go foward with this control scheme with ToMI and future seasons of Sam and Max, I'm not sure if I'll be going along with them after ToMI unless they refine it to something that isn't awkward to control your character as the current system is on keyboard.
Don't get me wrong, I love WaG, especially the new episode. I just feel it could have been so much more user friendly with a full mouse control scheme.
I'm quite grown to the closer shooting of the W&G scenes now - it feels much more organic this way. And I can imagine that it's difficult to come up with a mouse-only scheme that works well in such an environment. I'm not sure how much compromise would have to be made on the camera angles to make a p&c solution convenient, and I was challenging this for a while - but in the end, I believe that TTG-Yare has checked a multitude of options, and if he found one that was generally convenient and intuitive, then he would have gone for it.
Also, I recently replayed one of the earlier Sam & Max episodes. It's generally fine with point and click, but when walking on the street outside the office, it was more than once that I reached for the keyboard as the constant clicking became a bit tedious.
Even with the new tight angles, mouse control still would have been possible and for me, the better solution. There have been plenty of adventure games with tight angles and it always worked fine.
I can't recall any - but then again, I missed a lot of games between 2000 and 2006. Gimme a few examples and I check them out, okay?
1. A Vampire Story
2. So Blond
3. Wanted:- A Wild West Adventure.
That's 3 off the top of my head, I know they are not full 3d adventures, but the concept of being able to mouse click in a cramped close environment applies.
I was going to say Dreamfall, but I think that's keyboard controlled
OK, haven't seen any, I'll check at least one out.
Yes, Dreamfall is keyboard controlled - and it didn't really have composed shots while playing, it was free 3D.
Pretty much all movement inside any one scene happens on one axis (left-right) and while movement on the other (in-out) is present, it doesn't actually make any difference. And since hotspots are clickable and movement in essentially constrained to one axis, it would've been a simple matter to have a control system where if the player clicks anywhere on screen that isn't a hotspot, the character starts to move in that direction (and the camera tracks the character). Hell, this would probably have allowed for even more "cinematic" (which in Telltale's definition seems to be synonymous with close-up) camera angles than what was used in the first two episodes and it would only have limited an apparent freedom of movement that in reality isn't even there.
Let's not confuse close-up with closer-to-the-action. We're used to large scenic screens in adventure games, and W&G's smaller screens felt quite strange initially, but I grew to like them. Still, most of the screens aren't close-ups.
If I understand correctly how you think about the mouse control, it would work, but it would be rather inaccurate. I'm afraid it would annoy me to no end.
I'm hoping for configurable keymappings like EMI had. That might take care of some of the complaints in this thread.
Also, isn't there such a thing as a hardware sprite/mouse pointer in all reasonably modern gfx cards? I'm asking because with the gfx settings turned to max in Sam&Max the mouse pointer would lag horribly, but once I clicked somewhere, animation and everything was smooth. Even if the mouse pointer would be ugly I'd still prefer it to be responsive.
This is exactly how I feel about the keyboard control scheme. It works, but is inaccurate for the character movement (getting stuck on scenery and invisible walls) and it really does annoy me. I guess I'll just always feel the best way to play an adventure is point and click in the same way I always prefer to play action games via keybaord and mouse rather than a gamepad. It's what I'm used to, it works and does not need changing.
Let's be clear about this. It was more work to rip the half-functional point-and-click out of the PC version of W&G and write a special version of direct control with movement smoothing than it would have been to just leave the broken point-and-click controls in there. The PC control needs for W&G were evaluated and developed for what works best, not some imaginary time savings.
Yes, I'm also a slave to my habits, and I feel most comfortable with a p&c interface. However, Telltale is trying something different with W&G, and I'm interested in how it will work out. Despite Grim Fandango, EfMI and the numeroues mixed control action adventures, I think these grounds are still rather experimental - as long as the game content is high quality, I'm willing to make a compromise on convenience
One thing I didn't like was the inventory. The only comfortable thing I found was clicking the mouse wheel, which requires me to not use(for example) a laptop trackpad. Could it be possible to add an icon for the inventory, or to move the inventory opening key to "F"? Not sure why "Shift is as uncomfortable as it is, but "R" doesn't work for me because it requires a stretch upward for such a common action. Especially since revealing selectable objects would work really nicely with the Shift key.
I think the mouse is actually set up perfectly. It's the inventory and show all selectable objects buttons that make it uncomfortable. Another thing is that it doesn't close the inventory when I try to walk, and I've found myself accidentally turning on the inventory and being "stuck".
With inventory moved to "F" or(even better) getting an icon on-screen to click(maybe something to toggle on and off?) would be best. If the inventory got an on-screen icon, then show all items could be moved to "F" with the inventory getting Shift and the icon?
Playing two episodes in a row really made me appreciate the mouse layout, it's really actually done very well. It's just using the keyboard for interactions other than walking that is troublesome, and that's the "something" that made the controls not sit right with me before.
Sorry for posting twice on more or less the same issue in such a short timeframe.
I wasn't really talking about you there, reading your posts I think they're quite well written.
I was more thinking that I wish people would actually give Telltale more of a chance on this before bashing them for things that they can't quickly change.
I don't think they have too much of an ability to change the interface between episodes of the same series, so we might have to wait until Monkey Island is actually out before we get the results.
What bites me most here is to have had to use a third-party software to be able to use my pad, and waste time inventing a proper enjoyable mapping (my request to have a list of the designed button mapping has never been answered).
In other words: ok for the controls as they are on the PC, but - PLEASE - PRETTY PLEASE - PRETTY PRETTY PLEASE WITH SUGAR ON TOP - support all DirectInput pads instead of just XInput ones.
Please.
Yes, I checked just a few days ago. Still no luck
I'm not bashing them for not being able to change the controls back to point and click. I realise this series is too far gone now to be able to quickly implement new controls.
No, I was just trying to point out what I feel is an unnecessary change from the previous control scheme of point and click. I am happy to hear that ToMI is implementing full mouse control for movement as well as keyboard for those that prefer it. This says to me it was possible to keep the mouse control in the game from the off, albeit slightly changed with the drag to walk mechanic ToMI will employ, but full mouse control. Which kind of makes what I was saying all along right, point and click is still viable as a control scheme in these games.
I dont recall that you have to open the garage door.
I Played Sam & Max 201 again today and I constantly tried to open the inventory with shift. That really was helpful in W&G.
I agree with this. I was replaying Escape From Monkey Island recently, as a result, while playing W&G I found myself hitting shift in a futile attempt to run.