i think about 2 hours is the sweet spot for telltale game episodes, short enough to play in one sitting and not get tired, but long enough to get something substantial and not feel let down after a long wait, also 2 hours each episode and 5 episodes equals a 10 hour game for a relatively small price.
however, i would say that the long wait between episodes is something they really need to work on, i have binged watched like 3 entire TV shows and caught up on many others as well as played a whole tone of different games in the mean time, so i have forgotten most of the first episode, it may as well be 6 months to a year since episode 1 as far as my memory of it goes
...Great, I'm glad that you feel that way. Just voicing how I personally felt about that episode. Kind of silly for you to object to personal preference.
I don't think there should necessarily be a set time frame that the content should adhere to, within reason. It's more important to make a quality episode, and not be focused on creating content to meet a set time frame. Something like that can have too much weight in how the story is created. I don't even have any sort of issue with 2 hour episodes (loved TWD season one, longer episodes of TWAU, and the first episode of GoT), I just felt like the first episode really dragged on, to the extent that I felt like it was definitely longer than two hours, and the longest Telltale episode that I had ever gone through. I'm pretty sure my playthrough was 2-1/2 hours. I don't have any sort of problem with Telltale having episode two be a little shorter, if that's what the story calls for.
I know this may seem crazy and unheard of, but some people actually have different opinions. I felt like the first episode dragged on, and I'm all for the second episode avoiding that. If the story calls for a shorter episode, I'm fine with that, as I don't think fluff/ extra content should be shoved into the package in order to appease some sort of time frame.
The user has an opinion. They're not stating it in a bad way either and it's not a stupid opinion to have (nor are things that are factually wrong mentioned). So, I don't see how anyone can take an issue with what was said.
Myself, I enjoyed episode 1 as I do all of Telltale's stuff. But the simple fact is:
Imagine you've been told to make a 2 episode story arc into a 4 episode story arc. 2 episodes are what it's suited for, so when you try to extend it to 4, what happens? The story would likely feel too long where not much happens or something to that effect. Same with a writer being forced to turn a short story into novella too.
Regardless, it's the quality that counts, not the quantity. Basically, the episodes should be as long as they need to be for the story.
Belan,
I think episode 1 took me around 2.5 hours as well. I've got to say though, and this isn't having a go at you, that I find it amusing.
"Episodes need to be 2 hours long", like it'd fix the problems people had.
Now it's "2 hours are too long".
I know, I know. You likely didn't say 'episodes need to be 2 hours long' in the past, but it's just amusing.
First with TWD S2 and TWAU folks complained it was too short, now with GOT & TFTB there's complaining over it being too long. I bet some staff in TTG are getting annoyed. I wouldn't blame them.
First with TWD S2 and TWAU folks complained it was too short, now with GOT & TFTB there's complaining over it being too long. I bet some staff in TTG are getting annoyed. I wouldn't blame them.
Considering the newer episodes are still longer than the previous average of 90 minutes anyways, I don't think Episode 2 being shorter than Episode 1 is that big of a deal anyways as long as the episode length doesn't hurt or restrict the narrative.
But, Telltale at this point seems to do a better job on giving a 50/50 approach to the action and the drama for 2 hour episodes rather than 1 hour, TWAU really could have had a lot more development with its characters and the choice system if the episodes didn't feel condensed to just one hour and TWD S2 was a major step backwards as well.
The user has an opinion. They're not stating it in a bad way either and it's not a stupid opinion to have (nor are things that are factually… more wrong mentioned). So, I don't see how anyone can take an issue with what was said.
Myself, I enjoyed episode 1 as I do all of Telltale's stuff. But the simple fact is:
Imagine you've been told to make a 2 episode story arc into a 4 episode story arc. 2 episodes are what it's suited for, so when you try to extend it to 4, what happens? The story would likely feel too long where not much happens or something to that effect. Same with a writer being forced to turn a short story into novella too.
Regardless, it's the quality that counts, not the quantity. Basically, the episodes should be as long as they need to be for the story.
Belan,
I think episode 1 took me around 2.5 hours as well. I've got to say though, and this isn't having a go at you, that I find it amusing.
"Episodes need to be … [view original content]
Considering the newer episodes are still longer than the previous average of 90 minutes anyways, I don't think Episode 2 being shorter than Episode 1 is that big of a deal anyways as long as the episode length doesn't hurt or restrict the narrative.
Nothing wrong with that. Not sure whether I agree or not, but again, nothing wrong with you what said.
I really did enjoy the first episode for Borderlands. But it's just as Tobi said later in the thread: Telltale staff must get annoyed at times. First things are too short, now they're too long.
I know the people complaining now are possibly the minority, but still.
But really, there's nothing to debate in all honesty, at least with regard to what I said. I was speaking in general, rather than about any episode/game in specific. Things shouldn't be drawn out for the sake of hitting a certain length if it doesn't fit the story. Likewise, things shouldn't be made short if it doesn't fit. But . . . I guess what fits and what doesn't will always be subjective from person to person. While I would have liked TWAU to be longer, for instance, I was fine with it how it was. Whereas you seem to be different, so yeah . . . like many things, it's subjective. So, I guess what should really be said is 'the episodes should be as long as Telltale feels they need to be to tell the story they want to tell' as they're the ones making the products at the end of the day. Especially as it's not possible to please everyone.
But, Telltale at this point seems to do a better job on giving a 50/50 approach to the action and the drama for 2 hour episodes rather than … more1 hour, TWAU really could have had a lot more development with its characters and the choice system if the episodes didn't feel condensed to just one hour and TWD S2 was a major step backwards as well.
As you said, I really don't like arbitrary constraints on the narrative either way around. Episodes like Cry Wolf were short but still spectacular, whereas other episodes - especially from Walking Dead: Season 2 - really could've benefitted from longer episodes so that we could become more attached to the characters before they were killed off.
I think in part, either adding more interactive storytelling elements (if releases continue to take longer) or quicker releases (if they continue to design their episodes to play out as interactive TV show episodes) would alleviate complaints. When I say "interactive TV Episode", I'm not saying that to disparage Telltale's deliberate lack of traditional gameplay in their newer titles, but rather to make a point that deliberate minimalism in gameplay to emulate TV/Movies/etc should be followed up with a more traditional release schedule you would find from TV.
Nothing wrong with that. Not sure whether I agree or not, but again, nothing wrong with you what said.
I really did enjoy the first episo… morede for Borderlands. But it's just as Tobi said later in the thread: Telltale staff must get annoyed at times. First things are too short, now they're too long.
I know the people complaining now are possibly the minority, but still.
But really, there's nothing to debate in all honesty, at least with regard to what I said. I was speaking in general, rather than about any episode/game in specific. Things shouldn't be drawn out for the sake of hitting a certain length if it doesn't fit the story. Likewise, things shouldn't be made short if it doesn't fit. But . . . I guess what fits and what doesn't will always be subjective from person to person. While I would have liked TWAU to be longer, for instance, I was fine with it how it was. Whereas you seem to be different, so yeah . . . like many things, it'… [view original content]
That's another point actually, Blind, in your final paragraph.
First though, by interactive storytelling elements, you mean things like hubs, where you can walk around? Or just reactivity from choices? I think you mean the former. In which case, I'd say it depends on how well they can integrate those sections with whatever it is they're making, without the pacing being bogged down, given they're more focused on providing products that are more akin to a interactive tv show these days, which is why I hesitate to call them games. Definitely agreed that quicker releases could help things though. Or, at least changing the 'estimates' provided on the official faqs might be ideal.
Anyway, the point I wanted to touch on in your final paragraph is the 'emulating tv/movies/etc.' part. While it's true that Telltale's recent products could still be classed as games, which is the argument used to rebuke this whenever I mention it (because they're 'different mediums'), I don't see why people feel an hour and a half or so is not enough time to get familiar with characters etc. or whatever the complaints people have are.
In movies that are 90 - 120 minutes, or tv shows with 40 - 58 minute episodes, people don't have much of a problem getting to know the characters and such? Surely it's not the length making people think there's not enough characterisation and such, but rather it's the actual content? The writing/story? Granted, it's a bit different, because you're in control, but I guess I've never pictured myself as 'the character' like others can do (which is made a bit more difficult in GoT due to the 5 characters, I guess). Rather, I just make decisions on behalf of them, try to put myself in their shoes, or think about what I'd do. So, I've never understood the argument really, because in my view, people should be saying the same about tv shows. shrugs Though the tv shows have more episodes, generally speaking, and weekly episodes.
Anyway, I guess I've gone off-topic here. I think I'm going to log, as it's turned midnight here and I have a bit of interactive fiction reading to catch up on (choice of games/hosted games). Not sure I have much more to say either.
But yeah . . . regarding your final sentence. I think that's what they should aim for. Getting a release schedule much closer to the weekly format that tv employs. I think they'd have to start making the majority of the episodes prior to episode 1 being released though to accomplish that. Regardless, it's something for them to aim for. Improving the release schedule.
As you said, I really don't like arbitrary constraints on the narrative either way around. Episodes like Cry Wolf were short but still spect… moreacular, whereas other episodes - especially from Walking Dead: Season 2 - really could've benefitted from longer episodes so that we could become more attached to the characters before they were killed off.
I think in part, either adding more interactive storytelling elements (if releases continue to take longer) or quicker releases (if they continue to design their episodes to play out as interactive TV show episodes) would alleviate complaints. When I say "interactive TV Episode", I'm not saying that to disparage Telltale's deliberate lack of traditional gameplay in their newer titles, but rather to make a point that deliberate minimalism in gameplay to emulate TV/Movies/etc should be followed up with a more traditional release schedule you would find from TV.
First though, by interactive storytelling elements, you mean things like hubs, where you can walk around? Or just reactivity from choices? I think you mean the former.
Indeed, I did.
I'd say it depends on how well they can integrate those sections with whatever it is they're making, without the pacing being bogged down, given they're more focused on providing products that are more akin to a interactive tv show these days,
[...]
In movies that are 90 - 120 minutes, or tv shows with 40 - 58 minute episodes, people don't have much of a problem getting to know the characters and such? Surely it's not the length making people think there's not enough characterisation and such, but rather it's the actual content? The writing/story?
I agree with you there. It's not so much that hubs/QTEs/etc are important on their own, but rather how they serve to elaborate the characterization of people in the story. I don't think it's length that's the problem as much as it is a matter of how effectively Telltale allows users to relate to characters in their allocated time - be it through changing the writing to incorporate more characterization, or by adding more interactive elements to allow players to forge more of a relationship to their characters such as hub areas.
Telltale's story telling style in their newer episodes are in kind of an odd middle ground, where they try to emulate TV but with fewer episodes. As you said, length is not important, but rather what's important is how they use the length. If they use a short length well and it organically fits the narrative, that is good. However, if they don't focus as much on characterization in one episode as they do another, the loss is more significant since they have less episodes to make up for it. Length is not the sole determinant, of course, but in some instances it provides a more ample opportunity for Telltale to sprinkle in characterization or relationship building.
TV shows have the fallback of a larger quantity of episodes, and a movie has the fallback of being self contained. As I said, Telltale is in a middle ground, so I think that they basically have to be careful and include a good amount of characterization in each episode. This can be more extra dialogue, more gameplay, more hubs, or some other paradigm that Telltale has yet to discover.
That's another point actually, Blind, in your final paragraph.
First though, by interactive storytelling elements, you mean things like h… moreubs, where you can walk around? Or just reactivity from choices? I think you mean the former. In which case, I'd say it depends on how well they can integrate those sections with whatever it is they're making, without the pacing being bogged down, given they're more focused on providing products that are more akin to a interactive tv show these days, which is why I hesitate to call them games. Definitely agreed that quicker releases could help things though. Or, at least changing the 'estimates' provided on the official faqs might be ideal.
Anyway, the point I wanted to touch on in your final paragraph is the 'emulating tv/movies/etc.' part. While it's true that Telltale's recent products could still be classed as games, which is the argument used to rebuke this whenever I mention it (because they're '… [view original content]
Now, I actually really do like TWAU quite a lot actually, I thought it was executed solidly, but I'd be lying if I didn't feel like some episodes rushed a few things and I really do have an issue with the "make a deal with Jack" choice as that decision really doesn't lead to anything interesting, and the choice system could have been expanded upon and some characters could have gotten more development and screen time. You and Blind have great points, I'm just a little weary about Telltale going back to short episodes, as I REALLY didn't like on how TWD S2 was executed.
Nothing wrong with that. Not sure whether I agree or not, but again, nothing wrong with you what said.
I really did enjoy the first episo… morede for Borderlands. But it's just as Tobi said later in the thread: Telltale staff must get annoyed at times. First things are too short, now they're too long.
I know the people complaining now are possibly the minority, but still.
But really, there's nothing to debate in all honesty, at least with regard to what I said. I was speaking in general, rather than about any episode/game in specific. Things shouldn't be drawn out for the sake of hitting a certain length if it doesn't fit the story. Likewise, things shouldn't be made short if it doesn't fit. But . . . I guess what fits and what doesn't will always be subjective from person to person. While I would have liked TWAU to be longer, for instance, I was fine with it how it was. Whereas you seem to be different, so yeah . . . like many things, it'… [view original content]
Comments
I don't think you understand game development.
And I don't think you understand jokes.
i think about 2 hours is the sweet spot for telltale game episodes, short enough to play in one sitting and not get tired, but long enough to get something substantial and not feel let down after a long wait, also 2 hours each episode and 5 episodes equals a 10 hour game for a relatively small price.
however, i would say that the long wait between episodes is something they really need to work on, i have binged watched like 3 entire TV shows and caught up on many others as well as played a whole tone of different games in the mean time, so i have forgotten most of the first episode, it may as well be 6 months to a year since episode 1 as far as my memory of it goes
...Great, I'm glad that you feel that way. Just voicing how I personally felt about that episode. Kind of silly for you to object to personal preference.
I don't think there should necessarily be a set time frame that the content should adhere to, within reason. It's more important to make a quality episode, and not be focused on creating content to meet a set time frame. Something like that can have too much weight in how the story is created. I don't even have any sort of issue with 2 hour episodes (loved TWD season one, longer episodes of TWAU, and the first episode of GoT), I just felt like the first episode really dragged on, to the extent that I felt like it was definitely longer than two hours, and the longest Telltale episode that I had ever gone through. I'm pretty sure my playthrough was 2-1/2 hours. I don't have any sort of problem with Telltale having episode two be a little shorter, if that's what the story calls for.
I know this may seem crazy and unheard of, but some people actually have different opinions. I felt like the first episode dragged on, and I'm all for the second episode avoiding that. If the story calls for a shorter episode, I'm fine with that, as I don't think fluff/ extra content should be shoved into the package in order to appease some sort of time frame.
The user has an opinion. They're not stating it in a bad way either and it's not a stupid opinion to have (nor are things that are factually wrong mentioned). So, I don't see how anyone can take an issue with what was said.
Myself, I enjoyed episode 1 as I do all of Telltale's stuff. But the simple fact is:
Imagine you've been told to make a 2 episode story arc into a 4 episode story arc. 2 episodes are what it's suited for, so when you try to extend it to 4, what happens? The story would likely feel too long where not much happens or something to that effect. Same with a writer being forced to turn a short story into novella too.
Regardless, it's the quality that counts, not the quantity. Basically, the episodes should be as long as they need to be for the story.
Belan,
I think episode 1 took me around 2.5 hours as well. I've got to say though, and this isn't having a go at you, that I find it amusing.
"Episodes need to be 2 hours long", like it'd fix the problems people had.
Now it's "2 hours are too long".
I know, I know. You likely didn't say 'episodes need to be 2 hours long' in the past, but it's just amusing.
...sounds nothing like a joke to me.
My worry is not the length....it's that these episodes will be released every 4 months.
Here have a
if you can't get a joke or sarcasm without that. And nevermind the big-ass picture from a comedy show below.
Yeah and 4 months for 2 hours not good either. In my opinion the episodes should at least be 2.5 hours long if they have so much time to develop them.
Still no 'real' news?
Damn it
First with TWD S2 and TWAU folks complained it was too short, now with GOT & TFTB there's complaining over it being too long. I bet some staff in TTG are getting annoyed. I wouldn't blame them.
How did I forget my gif?
I wouldn't worry too much about that. The second episode of a Telltale series always seems to have the longest wait.
People complaining about it being too long have some thinking to do... I don't get how a lengthy piece of great content for just $5 is a bad thing.
Chuck Norris approves of this gif
Considering the newer episodes are still longer than the previous average of 90 minutes anyways, I don't think Episode 2 being shorter than Episode 1 is that big of a deal anyways as long as the episode length doesn't hurt or restrict the narrative.
But, Telltale at this point seems to do a better job on giving a 50/50 approach to the action and the drama for 2 hour episodes rather than 1 hour, TWAU really could have had a lot more development with its characters and the choice system if the episodes didn't feel condensed to just one hour and TWD S2 was a major step backwards as well.
Harsh thing for me to say, but there will always be someone who likes to complain or criticizes something.
Nothing wrong with that. Not sure whether I agree or not, but again, nothing wrong with you what said.
I really did enjoy the first episode for Borderlands. But it's just as Tobi said later in the thread: Telltale staff must get annoyed at times. First things are too short, now they're too long.
I know the people complaining now are possibly the minority, but still.
But really, there's nothing to debate in all honesty, at least with regard to what I said. I was speaking in general, rather than about any episode/game in specific. Things shouldn't be drawn out for the sake of hitting a certain length if it doesn't fit the story. Likewise, things shouldn't be made short if it doesn't fit. But . . . I guess what fits and what doesn't will always be subjective from person to person. While I would have liked TWAU to be longer, for instance, I was fine with it how it was. Whereas you seem to be different, so yeah . . . like many things, it's subjective. So, I guess what should really be said is 'the episodes should be as long as Telltale feels they need to be to tell the story they want to tell' as they're the ones making the products at the end of the day. Especially as it's not possible to please everyone.
As you said, I really don't like arbitrary constraints on the narrative either way around. Episodes like Cry Wolf were short but still spectacular, whereas other episodes - especially from Walking Dead: Season 2 - really could've benefitted from longer episodes so that we could become more attached to the characters before they were killed off.
I think in part, either adding more interactive storytelling elements (if releases continue to take longer) or quicker releases (if they continue to design their episodes to play out as interactive TV show episodes) would alleviate complaints. When I say "interactive TV Episode", I'm not saying that to disparage Telltale's deliberate lack of traditional gameplay in their newer titles, but rather to make a point that deliberate minimalism in gameplay to emulate TV/Movies/etc should be followed up with a more traditional release schedule you would find from TV.
That's another point actually, Blind, in your final paragraph.
First though, by interactive storytelling elements, you mean things like hubs, where you can walk around? Or just reactivity from choices? I think you mean the former. In which case, I'd say it depends on how well they can integrate those sections with whatever it is they're making, without the pacing being bogged down, given they're more focused on providing products that are more akin to a interactive tv show these days, which is why I hesitate to call them games. Definitely agreed that quicker releases could help things though. Or, at least changing the 'estimates' provided on the official faqs might be ideal.
Anyway, the point I wanted to touch on in your final paragraph is the 'emulating tv/movies/etc.' part. While it's true that Telltale's recent products could still be classed as games, which is the argument used to rebuke this whenever I mention it (because they're 'different mediums'), I don't see why people feel an hour and a half or so is not enough time to get familiar with characters etc. or whatever the complaints people have are.
In movies that are 90 - 120 minutes, or tv shows with 40 - 58 minute episodes, people don't have much of a problem getting to know the characters and such? Surely it's not the length making people think there's not enough characterisation and such, but rather it's the actual content? The writing/story? Granted, it's a bit different, because you're in control, but I guess I've never pictured myself as 'the character' like others can do (which is made a bit more difficult in GoT due to the 5 characters, I guess). Rather, I just make decisions on behalf of them, try to put myself in their shoes, or think about what I'd do. So, I've never understood the argument really, because in my view, people should be saying the same about tv shows. shrugs Though the tv shows have more episodes, generally speaking, and weekly episodes.
Anyway, I guess I've gone off-topic here. I think I'm going to log, as it's turned midnight here and I have a bit of interactive fiction reading to catch up on (choice of games/hosted games). Not sure I have much more to say either.
But yeah . . . regarding your final sentence. I think that's what they should aim for. Getting a release schedule much closer to the weekly format that tv employs. I think they'd have to start making the majority of the episodes prior to episode 1 being released though to accomplish that. Regardless, it's something for them to aim for. Improving the release schedule.
Indeed, I did.
I agree with you there. It's not so much that hubs/QTEs/etc are important on their own, but rather how they serve to elaborate the characterization of people in the story. I don't think it's length that's the problem as much as it is a matter of how effectively Telltale allows users to relate to characters in their allocated time - be it through changing the writing to incorporate more characterization, or by adding more interactive elements to allow players to forge more of a relationship to their characters such as hub areas.
Telltale's story telling style in their newer episodes are in kind of an odd middle ground, where they try to emulate TV but with fewer episodes. As you said, length is not important, but rather what's important is how they use the length. If they use a short length well and it organically fits the narrative, that is good. However, if they don't focus as much on characterization in one episode as they do another, the loss is more significant since they have less episodes to make up for it. Length is not the sole determinant, of course, but in some instances it provides a more ample opportunity for Telltale to sprinkle in characterization or relationship building.
TV shows have the fallback of a larger quantity of episodes, and a movie has the fallback of being self contained. As I said, Telltale is in a middle ground, so I think that they basically have to be careful and include a good amount of characterization in each episode. This can be more extra dialogue, more gameplay, more hubs, or some other paradigm that Telltale has yet to discover.
Now, I actually really do like TWAU quite a lot actually, I thought it was executed solidly, but I'd be lying if I didn't feel like some episodes rushed a few things and I really do have an issue with the "make a deal with Jack" choice as that decision really doesn't lead to anything interesting, and the choice system could have been expanded upon and some characters could have gotten more development and screen time. You and Blind have great points, I'm just a little weary about Telltale going back to short episodes, as I REALLY didn't like on how TWD S2 was executed.
Game of thrones has the potential to be bigger than TWD. it's definitely better than TWD S2