Fact v. Idealism: Is Equality really Possible? (*Please keep things Civil*)
So, I've been seeing a lot of threads lately about feminism and women etc. They usually spark so much debate and become inappropriate or harmful things are said. And then the thread is closed, so I ask you before I get to my topic, please be civil. Think about what you want to say before you being typing, dispute fact from idea and lets just try and discuss a topic respectfully.
But I am genuinely curious about some things and what society thinks.
I've recently entered a university, and boy howdy is it completely foreign here. I came from a small community college where I knew my way around and knew a lot of people, even the people whom I didn't share ideas or opinions with I could get along with and understand why they felt the way they did and respect their opinions. And I could get the same in return. But not at my university.
Recently we have started reading a book in one of my classes, and it's based on a true story. Something, completely unrelated to the actual whole of the story caught me as strange. A person admits to sleeping with 19 people. I made a comment on how likely you'd be to have an STD at that point, because the person even stated in the book they didn't use any sort of protection. And when I said what I said, the whole class went Ohh, not like a funny Ohh, but a, "OMG did she just say that? How stupid of her." Immediately after someone said something about that being their choice and they wouldn't judge them.
Am I just so out of touch with society that sleeping with 19 people is the norm? That saying someone might have an STD without using protection at the point would mean I'm judgmental and cruel? Because seriously, why would you sleep with 19 other people and not be worried about that issue?
Then I've been seeing a lot of stuff lately posting about women's roles in society on social media sites and what not. Feminism is like a black mark on your name if you even say you identify with one. I am so loosely a feminist, because whenever I say something about agreeing with a feminist I get told I'm a crazy (often people include the word liberal) bitter, virgin, whom hates men and wants them to be servants to women. Nothing could be further from the truth! I want equality. I want everyone to be able to have the same opportunities, and I don't like the idea of one sex being dominant over the other. Male over female, female over male. They should be equal! But this, is only an idea.
We can look at nature, where males have been and continue to be the dominant, stronger species. Females are only really present to propagate the species. And while yes, that is important, the fact remains that males are the superior sex.
Does this mean that, since humans are also animals (if you believe in evolution) that males will continue to be the dominant sex? Women are still supposed to be the baby makers, they are the inferior sex. Does this mean that, our idea of gender equality is an idea trying to dispute fact? Or is this an idea that will produce a fact? Is feminism, an idea that only exists in the minds of those who think that maybe the sexes can be equal? When true egalitarianism is just not a possible thing to have in society.
What is idea, and what is fact? Is it even possible for the sexes to be equal? Or is it best for me to simply accept that, as a female, I am inferior, and my idea of wanting to live a life without producing children, and without being a house wife and subservient person in the marriage that I am by making choices that don't get considered to be a females role, turning my back against the facts of nature? Is it a hopeless idea, to want to be equal in marriage? That because I am a female, can a male ever see me as something of an equal? Or is the whole idea destroyed by fact that I am inferior.
So many people I know personally try to argue with me, that as a woman, I need to have a desire to be a housewife, to be mother, when being those two things would betray the very being of my soul? I don't hate children, but I don't have any desire to be a mother. And I don't hate women who want those things, but I feel as if I should become that because it's what is what a female should be. Idea made me think of being an equal, when fact proves I'm not, nor will I ever be.
I can't stress enough how much I want this to be a civil discussion, because I'm tired of seeing anything related to gender issues ending up with a closed discussion thread. That doesn't help me feel any better about being a female.
To end this off, I'm really not in a good state of mind. I'm beyond stressed from things going on at the moment, so when I get really stressed I get depressed and tired and scared. And I think, and I think about things that are so raw and so deep down in me that I'm scared to confront and accept that I finally have gotten to the point where I'm ready to give up my idea of being a strong woman, when people say women can't be strong because only men can be. What is fact? What is idealism? Is equality even possible? Or has nature made it so, that we fight against the very thing we were made into?
Comments
We need more threads like this. I believe equality is possible .
It's nice to know someone thinks equality is possible, but how is it possible?
The fact is your a strong and intelligent women don't fear your dreams and ambitions being blocked by stereotypical roles for you, You create the world you live in manifest your taughts and ideas I'm glad all this troubles you, you should expect more from myself and deserve more you sound like you have that drive to accomplish great things don't worry all that bs is baseless about woman it's sexist you born to be who and what you want to be follow your dreams
The best and strongest person in my life is my mam she is a warrior and intelligent she raised me as a separated parent she followed her dreams and became a nurse I never be the person I am today without her no one in my family would she is a hero
No racism and not 100% equality will never exist the world is not perfect like pedo's, murderers and rapists will always exist no matter what we do
I don't find myself relating to these threads as my sisters never heard of feminism they are a doctor, top fitness instructor and a top graduate in college all strong, smart and independent with their own house I can tell you they depend on no men they all depend on them believe me
I'm from Ireland
I usually rant about feminazis but I respect you and your thread so I won't
I am can't remember the name of it equaliualist or something I believe in equality for all my brothers and sisters to have the best rights and benefits to their lives I believe working together all genders we can make the world equal and a better place for everyone lets make everyone happy being who they are whatever gender they are without discrimination
Haha. Wait. What?
In nature the female is much more dominating in most cases. They choose which individual of the species they wish to mate with after that individual (usually) goes through strenuous labor to impress the female. This is, for the most part, still completely true in human societies. The male works for the affection of the female, and she has the choice of reciprocating or not. I'd say that's far from "male superiority as a sex." Laughably so. Pretty much every, single, thing you say can be rightly applied to men as well. Females only exist to propagate the species in nature? Yeah, you're right. But what other purpose do males serve?
You can literally do what you wish, so long as it doesn't hurt anyone else. Nothing is stopping you from being a strong, independent woman without a husband and children.
P.S. Male is not a species.
:O
Egalitarian
Thanks ^^ this
In spiders that's more common than you might imagine. Gives new meaning to the phrase "hit it and quit it." Haha
So, you say that a female is the dominant one because she can choose her mate? But what happens after choosing a mate? She submits to him for him to impregnate her, then she raises the offspring by herself. They are few cases where we see animals actually living together to raise offspring. But nature has made it this way. Mating, reproduction is nature propagating the species, you can't dispute what has to happen in order for that to happen. Females were made a certain way, and males were made a certain way.
While each case is different, lets look away from in nature of purely animals. Let's look at actual human male and females. Generally, perhaps statistically, if you were to choose a male and female out of the population, you'd generally find that a male is more physically able to defeat her. Not only that, but males are also less dictated by their emotions, thus are generally more highly regarded for making decisions without having their emotional instability questioned.
Look at history, males dominated society. Women were property, and this isn't an argument that I'm trying to say that men are pigs blah blah blah but in history, up until very recently in the grand scheme of things, men have controlled women and society. Women don't hold such positions of power. So why? Why is it still even today that certain roles women can not have? Has nature made it physiologically so? Or it is self imposed limitation? What is it? Why can't a woman fight in the infantry next to men? Because she's not as strong as a male. That is fact, not idea. So there are many other issues as to why women are not equal to men. We physically can't change the way nature made us. Operations can, but what does changing your sex from female to male due? You're no longer a female.
Okay, so yes, males and females both carry the roles of creating offspring if you look at existence at it's most purest form. But let me ask you something, are you a man or a woman? Do you know what it's like to be a woman who doesn't want children? To know the feeling of how many people male and female look down on your for not having maternal instincts of desires? To be told you are wrong? To be told you will never find someone because I don't want to fulfill a role that nature has created my sex to be? And the fact that I can see men making that choice and people are like, whatever, that's his choice. But with me, it's, "Oh there's something wrong with you. You're not in the right state of mind. You'll be a mother and a housewife one day, it's your role." But I still want a husband. I still want someone to spend my life with, this isn't an issue with not wanting anyone.
What other purpose do males serve? Men are generally seen as workers, warriors, leaders. They can be many things, as a woman can be. But if a woman wants to be a worker, or a warrior, or a leader, it's still seen as taboo or impossible.
And I don't want to hurt anyone, but I'm hurting myself when I think I can do anything. Because I can't, I physically, by what nature has made me to be, can not do everything. And can I be a strong, independent woman who wants a husband? Or is that impossible? If I want a husband, do I have to be submissive and meager?
As a woman, I too feel the pressures of society regarding marriage and childbearing, and though it's a possibility that I could want these things for myself in the future, I think it's inappropriate to assume that it's what every other woman wants. There's absolutely nothing wrong with choosing to remain single or not to be a mother. I mean, hey, Oprah is one successful chick and she's unmarried and childless. We no longer live in a time where populating the Earth is a goal for everyone. In fact, the planet is overpopulated if anything. And I don't mean to go all dreaded feminazi on everyone, but women don't necessarily need men any more than they need to be barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen cooking dinner for their husbands.
As for women being the "inferior species", can anyone explain why that is? Aside from men bearing higher muscle mass than women (a fact) and being generally larger than women (also a fact), what makes men dominant and women inferior? Humanity is really the only species that deems this so. In nature, the females are often the breadwinners; female seahorses lay their eggs in the male's pouch, then go searching for food to sustain her offspring while her mate keeps them warm. Mother birds scavenge for worms to feed her chicks. Female praying mantises eat their male counterparts after mating. During mating season, the males are often the ones to impress the females. Female cats choose the best male to mate with. If that doesn't prove dominance, I don't know what does.
However, I am a feminist. Therefore, I stand by equality, not superiority. To answer your question, I do believe equality is possible, and in my opinion, religion has been the cause for most discrimination towards women over the years.
No, equality is a good goal to strive for and I say we should keep working at it, however like most things involving racism and sexism, it may never fully be accomplished. From what I see, most discrimination usually just flips. Usually, a certain group usually takes power in certain places...let that be in the past, men and primarily white in America. After time, if the nation progresses economically, then the social scale usually starts to change. People start becoming more self aware and want to change things, as was with the Civil Rights movement and Women's equality movement. Eventually we get to a point in time where things can be fairly equal, of course, there will always be some kind of bias or discrimination somewhere as it is just...Human.
I'm going to be honest, first world countries, are fairly equal. There is still discrimination but most people have the same rights. After a time, even if the previous oppressed group is still oppressed or not, they will keep talking about it and striving for more "Equality". This sadly reaches a point where some to a lot of the group starts holding hatred against the pervious oppressors. This will always cause a cycle or an equal amount of bias/hate/discrimination.
You're a woman, in today's world that doesn't stop you a lot anymore from achieving what you want. True, there will be assholes who will try but you can be anyone you want to be. In fact, for a lot of people that gives you an advantage over others. As a society, we still hold ideals that were passed down from our past generations and therefore can still hold these social norms about a masculine guy who needs to act alpha or a woman who needs to just be a caregiver. However, these ideals are far from accepted a lot in first world countries. You can be single and childless for your entire life, you can go into any type of job you want and truth be told, that's the first world equality I was talking about. While some might look down at you, you don't have to change to fit them if you don't want to.
It's completely your choice.
Also, your nature fact is wrong. There are several animal species where a matriarchy is held instead of a patriarchy, the one that comes to mind immediately is Elephants...I think Whales are the same way but I might be wrong. Nature changes, and usually the gender that proves most useful to the species becomes dominant.
Yeah, I believe in equality, but I think feminism's goal has pretty much been accomplished in America and other countries. In a lot of areas, women have more rights than men. (They don't get mutilated at birth, don't get drafted, more legal rights, etc). Yeah, there's always going to be some idiots out there that will treat women as the inferior sex, but to be honest, that shit will never go away. There's always shitty people.
I don't want to be single, I want to have a husband. But not children. Already my marriage options will fall apart. But on top of that, I want to retain my independence and strength. But to be a wife, by definition of most religious institutions I have to be the submissive house mate, I am not his equal as I am his wife. And wife is not equal in most if not all the relationships I see. Some women choose to be the submissive meager one, and I don't give a crap. It's your life, be the submissive housewife and mom, if that's what you want. But to ever be a wife, do I have to sacrifice being myself, independent and decisive? Do I have to sacrifice myself in that way? So that I can have a husband? Will he even see me as an equal?
And I agree, most everyone can live on their own, regardless of sex. But still, most people choose to live together, sometimes out of convenience and sometimes out of choice. And I don't care which way you live, alone or together it's your choice.
IDK, I just have been really paying attention to the world around me these past few years, what guys say about women and how women act and how they see themselves. And women generally have the bad traits, men have the good ones. Strong is a man's trait, or so everyone tries to tell me. Emotional is a negative trait, and primarily seen in women. Not only that, but in my business/line of work, I'm constantly dealing with men whom see women as the weak or inferior object.
Sadly, I know what you mean. TBH I am a Christian and I'm really have issues with what the Bible says about my role as a woman. I don't want to abandon my faith, but I don't want to be a weak and submissive housewife either. Just a woman whom has a husband whom sees her as an equal.
But you're post is well thought out, and considerate. You're by no stretch of the imagination a femnazi, don't ever let someone tell you that.
Thank you for all of this, it really helped me believe that maybe the situation isn't as bad as I thought. I hope that you too have been able to become strong and accomplish what you want.
Do you think I'm a femnazi? I'm barely a feminist I think...
My issue still remains though, I think my dreams and ambitions might be misguided and idiotic. If I want to be a strong woman, than I'm already outside of what is possible IMO. Women can't be strong unless their alone, and I don't want to be alone. I want to have a husband. But being a wife, means I have to be submissive and weak. At least that's why all my experiences are pointing towards.
Are you just ranting? I'm not convinced you've thought this through. Consensual sex (as I guess you would term that) is not submission, it is agreement. Is sex always submissive? And is it always submissive for the woman? How sexist of you.
You're right. There are few cases in nature where the male helps raise the offspring. How does this translate into human society in any relevant way?
Are we looking at history, or the depravity of women in society today? Make your choice. In addition the unjust treatment of women has only been occuring for a few hundred years in western society, but that's fairly irrelevant to the conversation at hand.
I agree. I think it's idiotic that women can't die in pools of their own blood alongside men.
Do you know what it's like to be a man and not want to be married? To not want to fuck every pretty girl that walks by? To not want to have kids? I am a man, and I can assure you that society isnt targeting you because of your vagina.
Are you talking about other species', that this portion was in reference to, or did you switch back to humans? In any case it's irrelevant because it applies to men as well...
No, it's not impossible. Stop acting like society has to fully support you in order for you to accomplish what you want.
Thank you so much
No the wrong man will make you weak and submissive the right man will make you even stronger and adore everything about you they will celebrate who you are to the world and help you reach all your dreams and ambitions don't worry you will find him one day the right person loves you so much they want you to achieve not be submissive believe me .
Follow your dreams and ambitions when the right guy comes along it will enhance them even more but not a big deal finding love is a life long journey concentrate on your dreams and one day that will fall into place
Ronda Rousey would disagree I believe.
I think that racial bias is stupid. I think that racial/cultural ignorance and lack of communication constitutes most of today's issues between the races. And that isn't applying to one group, you can't expect a Japanese person to know all about a American's life/culture anymore than you can expect an American to know everything about a Muslim's life/culture.
And I agree, when everyone becomes equal to a point some people still want to retain a sense of superiority, and will bring up crap from the past. Such is human nature.
I can be anyone I want to be? I must say no to that. There are things I can not because, because I am a woman, and nature has made me what I am. Not suitable for what males can do. Nature is what it is. And for what you described about the traditional roles of male and female, I can assure you that is far more prevalent than what you might think, even in 1st world countries. I know far to many women whom simply accept their role as the housewife whom caters to her husbands every need. A true story, I have a friend whom is a great lady, she is a housewife and takes care of her home and husband very well, but meanwhile, the husband posts crap on Facebook about women needing to be more respectful towards all men, even the ones she doesn't know.
Good God I didn't know that everyone thought that what I was saying was that I want to be single and childless my whole life. Simply because I want to be an equal, does not equate to me hating men. I want a husband, but no children. And I want to be seen as equal. That is what I want. I don't want the wifey statues to immediately denote to inferiority to a husband.
Maybe it's been too long since I've legit studied animals, but I still think that male creatures are the more powerful sex. Human males can easily subdue human females, and animals shouldn't be all that different, are they?
I agree with that. Women have more and even better rights with certain issues, and it's not right that someone gets more power over the other. At least I don't think so in all cases. But you can't change how society thinks, and you can't change really that men are still more powerful than women. And yes, those views will always persist, I just desperately wish they didn't.
I normally don't read walls of text but this OP was great.
My opinion on the topic is that equality is possible in theory, but will take hundreds of years to actually happen. There are still places in the world that forbid women from wearing what they want, driving, and even learning. If these kinds of things still exist then we won't see true equality in our lifetimes. Hell, people can't even agree on what equality means most of the time. Even in my country women get paid less on average, and there are TV PSAs telling people that violence against women is never ok. I probably don't even need to mention how often black Americans are killed by the police and incarcerated, but I will anyway. Ffs, some people are still in denial about all kinds of discrimination. It's not going away any time soon.
Totally agree, it's all about understanding and communication.
Well obviously, I can't have children. I'm talking about equal opportunities.
KEYWORD:Accept. That's their choice, they don't have to, unless they're in a toxic relationship.
I didn't, I was just saying if you did, you could.
Umm...I never said this. As far as I see, NO ONE here has said this.
It doesn't though, unless you're in a toxic relationship.
What are you even talking about? "Human males can easily subdue human females"
No, you don't have to sacrifice yourself to be someone's wife. If anyone suggests that you have to, you have every right to avoid that person. The right person will respect you enough to treat you like a human being of equal opportunity. If they don't... well... that's abusive behaviour and if they don't consider you an equal, they probably won't have a problem with treating you as even less than that.
You shouldn't pay attention to what idiots think. They're idiots for a reason. Prove to them that you're independent and they'll start treating you as such. I'm Christian too and I don't think you have to abandon your faith in order to demand respect. Everyone is deserving of the same opportunities. I believe that God created us equal, and what's between your legs doesn't prove or disprove anything.
Maybe, yes, I am ranting. And yes, I agree, I'm not at my best right now so I'm kinda just spewing what I've been trying to forget or something that I feel deep down might be inherently true. I wouldn't know anything about sex to be honest. I have never had it, and I honestly don't think I ever will because I've been told by men before that it's my only purpose in life. Not all men are like that, but when I have no other examples what am I to think?
My honest to God opinion from my experience, and not some projected bullshit that feminism has influenced me to believe. In human society, childbearing I believe is mainly seen as a woman's job. Again, in my experiences women are the ones who take care of the home and children, men take care of work. I don't resent this role, if some people choose it. I resent that I am automatically assumed to be a baby crazy woman ready to start popping out little people.
You completely missed what I was saying. I think the idea of women not fighting in combat is a good one for now. Because WOMEN AREN'T AS STRONG IN GENERAL AS MEN. A all male army is far more likely to have success then an all female one. I'm not resentful of that fact, I appreciate and admire anyone who can join the armed forces and fight.
So it looks like you also share a issue with what society wants to impose on you. Sorry that you and I don't share the same issues due to our bits.
Humans.
Thanks. That's pretty eye opening. Really, you made me realize something just now.
While I definitely don't agree with everything you've said, thanks for a kick in the ass. I guess we all need it sometimes to quit sitting around hating the world around us. Things won't change, but fuck the people who tell me what I should and shouldn't be because I'm a woman.
I find that hard to believe. I don't know if anyone would want to waste their time to make me better when I'm basically a lost cause at this point. Though you've got a good head on your shoulders, I hope that you find someone who does all those things and more for you.
But my mother has told me, that if I follow my dreams and ambitions, if I want to write and illustrate and that if I want to remain childless for my life that I will never find anyone. She and many others have said I'll only find a man if I have children. And sadly I have agree with them, I don't know any men who want to marry a woman and not have kids. I'm just a deviant of nature I guess. And I'm just gonna follow my dreams, so that means I'm going to be alone. I'm not asking for a pity party, just stating something I already know will happen.
Let's hope that if she really wants a husband and family, that she finds someone who won't ask her to sacrifice whom she is for a marriage. Everyone tells me that's what I need to do.
You're hanging around some pretty shitty people if they tell you that you need to become, basically a slave to a man when you're married. Of course, love isn't without change but from both people.
Well I just wanted to clarify. Sorry if I offended.
Sadly, I think all the examples of marriages and relationships I have are toxic. :<
Well, I mean if you had a man and a woman who had to fight to the death all of the sudden, a male would have an easier time subduing or overpowering her unless that woman was very strong already or the man was perhaps skinny and weak. It varies, but generally. And besides, my mom just said this a few moments ago. "I'd want man to protect me, I couldn't fight one off. So I'll be submissive and let him protect me." Not lying. My mother told me this when she was trying to convince me to be a submissive woman.
Thanks for taking the time. And yes, it's hard to read walls of text. But I just want to clarify this issue well. I still missed somethings though.
And yes, I agree. In theory it sounds great, but some things will never change. Do we accept that some things will never change? Or do we accept that change and equality will be a long, hard if not impossible struggle?
I've been mostly watching, but wish to address this:
He didn't state an 'all-female army'. He state 'I agree. I think it's idiotic that women can't die in pools of their own blood alongside men.' which if anything is more effective because they are more soldiers and therefore more fighting troops.
But that's just me noticing something.
I think so too, it seems really...conservative. Old school vibes. I live in an northern southern state so I see all kinds of ideas of relationships and marriages. Looking at personal examples isn't a great way to see a full picture.
I wasn't offended, something like that would be stupid to get upset about.
Yeah, sounds like you have a lot of views being pushed on you that aren't progressive like the rest of America. Not saying all of America is progressive but it's not all like this.
There are men who want to marry and not have kids. I am one of them. We exist.
Now that's what I like to hear
Sadly, I'm conservative. But I'm much more moderate than people think. I've seen good conservative examples though, just all the ones in my immediate vicinity are definitely not the best.
I don't much care for the word progressive. But I think perhaps, more of an awakening would be appropriate for me case? I know my mom realizes what's wrong with her, but she tries to rationalize it to me so she doesn't feel bad about all the issues me and my sis have with understanding male and female dynamics in a marriage.
I say just accept that we will never experience it, but do what you can to practice equality anyway because future generations won't have it either if people give up now. Evolution doesn't happen fast, and I think the same is true for social evolution.
I have a wife. We've been married 16 years.
We have no kids. I knew that going in. While I always thought before her that I would want some, I decided I loved her more than I needed to reproduce.
I am physically stronger than her, for sure. I handle all of the heavy things around here.
And yet, that doesn't mean I "dominate" her. In fact, I usually let her call the shots, as she has stronger opinions than I do about most things. We both know when something "needs" to get done and what we both need to do, and we both acknowledge what each other likes to do, and we just work out life as we go.
You said you had no examples, so I just wanted to provide one. That doesn't mean every guy is like me, and for sure, some will write you off if you never want to have kids. Not all, though.
Then I recommend getting out of Texas or wherever and seeing the more moderate parts of America.
I can understand that, I was raised by mostly women (Don't ask) and I never had a father figure. My mom had a hard time getting me into the more physical and masculine parts of me.
Alright I understand. I'm truly sorry if I offended anyone. But my question is, why a female infantry soldier and a male infantry soldier have differences that would make one more suited for combat over the other? Men are stronger. Women are not composed the same when it comes muscle mass, it makes men more efficient.
Human death and death in general in war is horrible.
And i wanted to touch on this subject. There is a large number of women that do have the physical aptitude to serve in the infantry. Men that cannot pass the rigors of physical wellness are also not allowed to be infantry, so saying women shouldn't be allowed because most women cannot do it is a bit absurd.
I know it's horrible examples. And I know that people change when they get married, I just don't ever want to find myself becoming akin to a slave for someone else. Man or woman.