US Goverment Shutdown [Discussion]
fusedmass
Banned
I'm fairly interested in politics. Perhaps this bores some people to death. However since I love the games, this site provides. I thought I would try an experiment with this thread. Looking over the rules for this site. There is nothing against discussing politics.
With that being said., Obamacare or the Affordable Health Care act will go into effect today. Last night Republicans refused to pass a clean resolution that funds the government unless Obamacare is delayed (Translation: delayed they can elect enough republicans to override the President's veto)
They would not accept anything less then a one year delay on Obamacare and a repeal of the tax on medical devices that would actually saved the country money. (estimated 33 billion dollars.) Its projected that with Obamacare it actually saves more in the economy and it would add more to the debt by trying to repeal it.
These people are so divided. They would would actually refuse to fund the government. Rather then vote to keep the lights on. What do you make of the current state of politics in the US government. Do you blame the Republicans, or the Liberals, please detail your answer.
Thank you.
Currently I started a petition to recall Senator Ted Cruz. If you share my common sense point of view. Read everything in this thread first. Then make a choice on your own if you wish to support my petition to recall him.
http://petitions.moveon.org/sign/recall-senator-ted-cruz-1
Thank you.
Comments
Someone needs to be there to force the Republicans to compromise. Where's the nearest Sith Lord when you need one?
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But seriously, Obamacare is largely based on Romneycare. Romney is a Republican. So basically the Republicans are only whining because the Affordable Healthcare Act has a Democrat's name on it. It has nothing to do with the effect it might or might not have on the economy.
Europeans will probably not deliver a lot of differing statements on this matter. 'Obamacare' is just the attempt at a beginning of a start of a proper Affordable Healthcare system, it costs you practically nothing compared to the military budget, and the president had to practically slit his own throat to get this little into effect. And still people keep voting for the Tea Party. I'd say you need a proper revolution, but the recent German election turned out far, far, faaaar too conservative as well. In principle, we're the same kind of sheep. Then again, what counts as conservative over here probably already slightly borders on the socialist in the United States.
Yeah. Very different countries.
It's amazing to me. Obamacare was passed by the Senate and the House, signed into law by the President. Republicans still protested so it went to the supreme court. Which upheld the ruling. Funding the goverment has nothing to do with Obamacare. It just stops hundreds of thousands of workers from getting their checks.
I honestly believe some people are more concerned with their next election then issues in front of them. Its been studied that because of Obamacare. The economy will become more stable. Republicans keep saying, repeal and replace. But with what, they have put forth a plan to fix the system.
I personally believe health care should be affordable to all not just the rich elite few that can afford it. What was interesting in the shut down. Republicans refused to sign off on a bill for the government unless the president defunded his health care plan. Now I believe the republicans will suffer greatly in their re elections.
Getting over a cold and not caring about a country thousands of miles away.
Honestly, it's your country and you guys can screw it up however you want. If you don't want affordable health care, then that's YOUR problem.
It's not as simple as "We don't want affordable health care. Its OUR PROBLEM" You see the way our politics work. Because US is so massive. We have hundreds of senators both Dem and Republican. Now the Dem "DO WANT AFFORDABLE HEALTH CARE" there's not one sole person deciding if we want it or not.
The problem is. There is a small faction extreme right wing. That are blocking bills from being advanced. However. If you don't care about this discussion. I'm not forcing you to respond. I know this site host many diverse people from all around the world. I just sincerely thought since it was blasting on the news 24/7.
Even if you don't live here. You could likely offer your insight, rather then not caring because your thousands of miles away. I still care what happens around the globe on Syria, Iran, Russia, China. Just because physically I'm not there. I'm still interested in those events.
In all honesty, what needs to change first is the strict two-party system here. Yes, it is nigh impossible in the States due to its sheer size and dividedness, but having more than just two big parties with a few smaller satelite parties has some advantages, of course with its disadvantages.
But here's in my opinion the biggest advantage. Right now, it's really just strictly divided between Democrats and Republicans. There is nearly no room for compromise, as the biggest party is at the same time the party with the majority vote (note that this doesn't always have to be the case, I think). However, with multiple parties, the biggest party isn't always the party with the majority. You still need to compromise, work together with other parties, in order to get shit done. Now it's not a perfect system, in the Netherlands for the past six years we've gone through around five or six elections because it all fell apart, but that's because the Dutch can't cooperate with each other for shit.
George Washington was not affiliated with any political parties, and he expressed his concern that political parties "are likely in the course of time and things, to become potent engines, by which cunning, ambitious, and unprincipled men will be enabled to subvert the power of the people and to usurp for themselves the reins of government, destroying afterwards the very engines which have lifted them to unjust dominion."
I wish people listened to him.
Here's the link for how it may affect you. Kinda funny that the items on the list are named after songs!
http://www.cnn.com/2013/09/23/politics/government-shutdown-daily-life/index.html
Yeah, all I gotta say is: fuck those guys. Fuck them all.
The Republican party is a beached whale, a mass of blubber struggling to survive in a world where at best they are outdated and obsolete and at worst, dragging down any progress with hatred, bigotry, and misogyny. The only reason they have any power at all is through deluding their voter base with their thin veneer of supporting religion, but that's not going to last forever and eventually, they'll find themselves collapsing under their own weight.
What they did here wasn't politics. It was the beginning of death throes. They've put so much into opposing the Affordable Care Act that if it succeeds, which they're terrified it will, they will lose what little respect they had. They wouldn't be opposing it if they thought it would fail. They would LOVE for it to fail. Then they could get it completely defunded with no problems and look like the good guys and reclaim their voter base. It's because they think it will actually work that they're resorting to such measures.
They're basically willing to put thousands of people out of work, smash up the economy, cost the government billions of dollars that, according to them, we can't afford, and basically make a huge mess and lots of pain just to prove a point. And that makes them absolutely despicable to me.
For the record, it annoys me that people tie Christianity to the Republican Party or vice versa.
I'm a Christian, and I'm a Democrat.
... not to move the topic to religion. It just rubs me wrong that Republicans are using my faith simply as a political tool to sway the uninformed.
While there are many Christians who are Democrats (usually the more sane ones), there is a far higher percentage that are Republican and, as a result, the Republican party tends to cater to their more extreme Christian audience.
Situations like this, I look at Canada, Europe, etc. I'm not sure about other country's. I suspect America is one of the most corrupted with politics. Since Citizens United which was a Supreme court ruling that Corporations could spend nearly unlimited amounts of cash. Republicans touted it as "free speech". Since money equals more free speech. Politicians are running to corporation for fund raising in return for favors.
Some Republicans fear losing their election, caring more about that then the actual country. Then you have these situations. Where republicans are so scared of losing their re election, they would rather throw America under the bus. Parks will be closed. Museums will be closed. Hundreds of thousands of government workers will be laid off.
I sometimes, get sick to death of this. Last time this took place. They downgraded Americas credit rating, that was nearly a year ago. You talk to Republicans they say, Harry Reid shut down the government by refusing to negotiate(Harry Reid is Dem Senate Majority Leader) Why would you Negotiate on something that is already law.
America is extremity divided right now. So much so, we can't even agree to fund the government without holding the economy hostage. It's pretty much them saying, do this and this for me or I won't sign off on the bill. It really is a toxic and twisted place, congress has become.
This is a letter. I got from my rep. John Carter of Texas. He's the number 2 Republican in the House.
WASHINGTON D.C. - Congressman John Carter (R-TX31) has been appointed as one of eight House Republican Continuing Resolution Conferees.
The conference committee is comprised of House Majority Leader Eric Cantor (R-VA), Rep. Dave Camp (R-MI), chairman of the House Ways & Means Committee, Rep. Hal Rogers (R-KY), chairman of the House Appropriations Committee, Rep. Paul Ryan (R-WI), chairman of the House Budget Committee, Rep. John Carter (R-TX), chairman of the Homeland Security Appropriations Subcommittee, Rep. Ander Crenshaw (R-FL), Rep. Rodney Frelinghuysen (R-NJ) and Rep. Tom Graves (R-GA).
Late last night, after the Senate rejected multiple House proposals out of hand, the House requested a conference with the Senate.
The conference committee was appointed to work with the Senate’s conference committee to hash out how within conservative fiscal discipline we fund the government and provide a better healthcare solution for the American people.
Chairman Carter is honored to have been selected to be a conferee, saying, “The leadership team knew they needed fighters for the American people. I am honored they see the value in my willingness to battle for Texans and all Americans in this debate. It’s time for the Senate to join the House of Representatives and the American people at the negotiating table. The Obama Administration and Senate are pushing a healthcare system that is detrimental not only to small business but also to the hard-working American. We cannot put this burden on our country and expect taxpayers to just ‘figure it out.’”
Did he have anything to say about the burden on federal employees of not having a paycheck? What about the burden on scientists who have their grants frozen? What about the burden on the taxpayers, who are paying billions of dollars for no government services? What about the burden on the lower-income families and families with pre-existing conditions who will have to pay exorbitant medical care fees or go without treatment if this law is defunded?
Oh. Right.
They don't matter. Because they aren't voting for the Republicans in the first place.
Sadly. They (Republican Party) wish to negotiate on health care. Even though Obamacare (aka Affordable Health Care act) is active, millions of Americans now have several plans to choose from. They are focused on destroying it. The GOP, is like a slow moving car wreck. Right now they just flipped off the road, and pretty soon the engine catch on fire and explode. I can't imagine why anyone would vote for them after this.
Unless you're really rich and you dislike sharing some of your money to fund domestic programs.
I will never understand politics. Ever. It's so absurdly complicated I can never be bothered to put in the time and effort to figure out what means what and who's doing who.
I have enough trouble trying to figure out which of OUR political parties is the least evil, let alone other countries!
Well, the GOP is also great at spreading disinformation through their core voting groups. I literally spoke with a gentleman today who is convinced that ACA will make his medical decisions for him and force him to use socialized insurance because the Republican party told him so. Others in their core voting group will not care about healthcare or any other government decision they make as long as they support Christianity or gun ownership or try to stop gay marriage. Given the kind of voting base that doesn't know or care about the larger issues, they'll probably suffer little from this maneuver.
Of course, if ACA still gets funded at the end and it works... well, they'll probably lose most of the voters who benefit from the law.
The Republican party has become far too myopic to function in the modern age. They're more interested in getting votes than actually making government work, but the votes they're interested in getting are mainly on social issues from a very small, exclusive platform. They have strong support from the older white male, middle-to-rich, Christian group... and very few others. They cater to the moral views of the most extreme sects of Christianity and reel in the moderates with a pro-life stance. Get the rich and middle-class white vote through class warfare and racism and the older male vote through slut shaming and misogyny.
At the end, they have a base, but that base is shrinking as we step into the modern era and they know it. But as their base shrinks, only the most extreme of the voters are left and they have to go batshit insane just to keep those voters.
It's unfortunate, because I feel that we could really use some conservative trimming of the government (particularly blatantly unconstitutional bits like all of Homeland Security) and restructuring of the economy, but the Republican party is too hung up on social issues to make any progress and their positions are so despicable that I would feel dirty voting for them, even if they came up with a plan to save everything. I think, at this point, the party needs to die and make way for something new.
Like it or not, care or not, America's policies will affect you eventually. When a superpower crumbles, the shockwaves affect everybody regardless of whether they paid attention or understood what was going on.
LALALALACAN'THEARYOULALALALA
Very true. I'm not sure if its the internet or they have always been like this. We just were not aware. The platform they stood on is slowly shrinking. Take for example. Gay Marriage. They were heavily against it. In 2012 election. Joe Biden was asked if he supports it. He replied "Yes" he was first person from Obama Admin to publicly admit that.
What happens after that, few months go by and the Supreme court strikes down the defense of marriage act by 5-4 vote. Now the LGBT community has come out in force supporting the Dems. Its now legal for LGBT community to get married. They claim they stand for job creators and creating jobs.
Yet if you look at Bush Era. We went from having nearly best economic times almost in America's history, from Bill a Dem President to having a nearly complete meltdown in the Bush Era. The country was nearly drove into a great depression. They keep saying they want Pro Growth policy's. I don't think they can run on the platform. They know how to create jobs.
In my humble point of view. I believe they speak for the ultra rich, funded their campaign. What is the GOP about now, what do they stand for. Rand Paul is trying to change the direction of the party. However as for the debt ceiling which is in a few months. Paul Ryan had said they would hold that hostage as well.
They can not keep doing this over and over, this time was a little bad. The government shutdown will enter day 2 tomorrow. The shortest shutdown they ever had was a few days, and longest was three weeks. it will be interesting to see how this plays out. Considering it cost an average of 300 million dollars per day due to this shut down.
The truth is most people I talk to couldn't care less about a temporary, non-essential government shutdown. It's all blown out of proportion by hyperventilating media people.
People are just now starting to see the bad effects of the government takeover of healthcare, however. My brother's employer cut many workers' hours and let people go because of it, for example. People want the government healthcare takeover known as Obamacare gone, and the opposition will only get more intense. My prediction is the thing will be gutted within three election cycles. A lot of people have underestimated the opposition to this thing.
But about the shutdown, maybe it's a good time to get rid of some of the way overcompensated federal workers that aren't really needed. In the sense that a temporary shut down draws attention to opposition to the unpopular, job-killing Obamacare healthcare takeover, I say it's a good thing.
Those representatives not rolling over and acquiescing to the Obamacare pushers are representing the will of the people they work for, and I commend them for it!
There are ways to say, here's what's wrong with Obamacare, let's figure out how best to fix it that don't involve "Submit to our demands or else!"
GOP is just making it harder for the next republican candidate to win the election. Congress... I really can't go there with them right now I'm just too upset. hey at least the kkk won't be able to terrorize anyone this weekend. Do they really STILL think that bedsheets and cone shaped hats are intimidating in 2013???
Why on earth are you brining up the KKK? I'm not following.
On Sept. 26, officials at Gettysburg National Military Park granted a special-use permit for a rally to a Maryland-based KKK group. According to NBC 10 Philadelphia, the event was canceled when park officials rescinded all permits for special events because of the shutdown, which began 12 a.m. ET on Tuesday.
That's the only good thing to come from this shutdown so far.
How was Obamacare forced through? With zero Republican input, with zero Republican votes, and against the will of the people. No input or compromise was permitted. That's why Democrats lost control of Congress in 2010, and 2014 may see them lose more Senate seats because of it.
And you talk of "my way or else?" The Democrats are not compromising. Obama illegally and unilaterally granted waivers to government workers and to big corporations to exempt them from Obamacare, yet he won't do the same for the rest of us.
Obama will negotiate with Iranian president, but not with opposition party's representatives of the voters. Not a good thing.
Interesting news:
Obamacare exchanges have disastrous and embarrassing first day. Sign of things to come:
http://twitchy.com/2013/10/01/surprise-obamacare-health-insurance-exchange-websites-dont-work/
http://twitchy.com/2013/10/01/patience-exhausted-msnbc-reporter-tries-to-sign-up-for-o-care-exchange-on-air-gives-up/
Also, there seems to be some confusion here as to what is going on and about who really wanted a government shutdown. Check of this video of the heroic conviction Senator Ted Cruz easily handle and set straight an aggressive interview from one of Obama's worshipers in the new media:
Cruz clears things up nicely.
I very strongly disagree with you. It was passed with zero republican input.. The government is shut down due to the republicans. They are the problem, not the solution. As to your second point. Democrats do not have not compromise. The bill passed the Senate and the House. Signed by the President. Upheld by the Supreme court as constitutional.
If Obama is willing to negotiate with some of the harshest people in the world. People accused of the worst of the worst war crimes. He will not negotiate with republicans. That says more about your own party then it does Obama. Now when you say Negotiate, in reality you mean remove Obama care. That's not going to happen.
I will say this, back when Bill was President we had an amazing economic situation. When Bush was President, a republican we had a major meltdown. The truth is, Republican's cannot even agree with each other. They rather shut entire government down due to a law that has passed over five years ago because they don't like it.
As Obama said. When I Phone came out. It wasn't perfect. They kept updating it. Did they demand apple stop selling I phones because of it. No, they improved it. The fact you see, Ted Cruz an extreme Tea Party member. A man who read "Green eggs and Ham" while standing on the Senate floor for 21 hours ranting and raving about Obamacare.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=-nSLegRsX-U
I thought Obama said we could keep our current plans. Turns out that wasn't true. Also, cost of healthcare will go up even more along with insurance premiums:
http://dailycaller.com/2013/09/28/ten-states-where-obamacare-wipes-out-existing-health-care-plans/
And we haven't even gotten started.
I would have rather a market solution that allowed us to buy insurance across state lines (something that's now forbidden). I want more choice!
Also, Obamacare is eliminating jobs (except in the IRS, which will be the enforcer), when jobs are what we need now. The answer isn't a massive new entitlement program that impacts 300 million people when we're already broke. It's not happening. How would you Europeans like it if the EU decided to takeover the health care industry for all of you. That is the scale of what we are talking about here.
We are a federal republic in the US. Individual states can enforce insurance mandates if they want and how they see fit, but to have a national government takeover of 1/6 of our economy is madness. It's no wonder that the more people learn about Obamacare, they less they like it.
Top hospitals in California like the UC's apparently aren't even accepting some of the plans. It's happening everywhere. Too much regulation. Doctors hate it.
What should have been addressed was those people who don't have insurance, though many of them don't have insurance by choice. Instead, Obama and the Democrats seized the opportunity given by having control of the House, Senate, and presidency, to go for a massive federal government power grab. Instead of focusing on the problem, they decided to try to change healthcare for EVERYONE in an effort to one day have the government be the sole insurance provider for over 300 million Americans. Of course this will result in rationing, lower quality care, higher prices, etc.
Instead of focusing on the problems where all parties can compromise and find solutions, they accepted no input and messed up things for everyone. Kind of like the forum makeover that took place here. :-)
To your point that Obamacare is removing jobs. That's simply not true. Corporations with 50 or more people with full time staff now have to to give them health coverage. That means people working at Wall Mart, Taco Bell, etc that work for penny's on the dollar close to nothing at a low wage will now have access to health care coverage.
Greedy corporations rather then rejoice in this, are trying to get around the law by moving their full time staff to part time. It's a loophole. Even if corporations hired more part time staff, that would still mean double the people working rather then full time. Blame the greedy corporations. Not Health Care plan.
Now if you recall. This plan was created by a Republican. Mitt Romney had this exact same plan working in his state. He created it. Obama simply took that and applied to the nation. On one point, when a person who gets hurt goes to the doctor without insurance. Then doesn't pay their bill. Everyone insurance raise sky rocket to cover that price. This bill is considering people to buy health coverage at a reasonable price. That is actually bringing down the cost of the health care.
You don't understand our health care system was broken. People that got sick, couldn't get to a doctor. With Obamacare. They cannot deny you for pre existing conditions. In fact Its reported that the insurance companies have to pay at least 90 percent of the money you give them on you. People have been getting refunds from insurance company's. Thanks to the affordable health care act.
You claim its an entitlement. I think health care at a reasonable price is simply common sense. I don't agree that the elite few should have access to it, while people with no insurance cannot afford to go to a doctor when they get sick. That isn't right.
How about we let individual states decide what works best for them? Wouldn't that be a lot more effective and wouldn't that make it easier to make revisions? Why do you want to force this one size fits all approach on the entire country?
Why should I not be able to purchase insurance from out-of-state, if they offer what I want?
Are you happy with the national government's record of managing massive entitlement programs? Medicare and Social Security are going broke, you know. They also account for a huge part of the budget and dominate national governance.
Why do you want the national government to now get in the health insurance business? Our Constitution says we are to have a very limited national government with most powers being left to state and local governments. The national govt couldn't even run a "cash for clunkers" program without it going broke.
The way the health care system works, this mirrors RomenyCare. In order it to be effective, everyone must buy into it. The entire nation is in the same situation. However it brings down the price hospital visits. Have you seen that some hospitals charge nearly 500 dollars just to pick you up and take you to the doctor.
They been nickle and dimming customers for years. Canada, Cuba, all these places have health care for everyone. The United States should be able to do it as well. I would ask, what are the other states plan for health coverage. They don't have one. If they did they would have done it.
As you comment back to the consintiation. I say, that the sueperme court ruled this constitional. I have insurance myself. I had it years since I was 18. It's very good coverage. However when a woman I know, raising two kids. Had to pay nearly 200 dollars out of pocket. She had to decide if she wanted to pay for her meds or spend the money on her kids. That isn't right.
Bush a Republican, started a war in iraq. He spent 2.2 trillion dollars to find weapons that never existed. Thousands of soldiers died. We got nothing out of it. He cut taxes for rich people and nearly drove the country into a depression. Obama is the person who brought it back. You don't seem to understand. This "Republican input" are the ones who created the mess. You talk about the debt.
Did you know Republicans wanted a repeal on tax on medical decides that would add 33 billion dollars. In fact its estimated it would be very expensive to repeal the law. I'm speaking millions of dollars. However I am proud to announce as of yesterday Obamacare opened. This Republican shut down did not stop the exchanges from being open.
I would say, everyone deserves the chance to see a doctor. It's not free. They have to pick a plan and pay. This is about the one percent who have billions to spend getting the person they want elected. But big corporations not wanting to spend the extra money to give health coverage to the people that work for them.
I don't see why that was necessary. I took the time to comment here in order to provide a point of view that didn't seem to be represented. That's all. You can give your point of view, and I can give mine. It is okay if we don't agree. It's just like what's going on with the shutdown. Different representatives are doing what they campaigned on and what voters elected them to do, for the most part. There is supposed to be conflict. You do know that congressional Republicans campaigned on and got elected with a platform to support Obamacare repeal, don't you? Now, what's probably going to happen is there will be a deal, the Democrats will get their way this time, since they control the Senate and the presidency. But what this focus on Obamacare now has done is crystallize exactly who owns the Obamacare mess moving forward. In the 2014 elections voters will render their judgements and either reward or punish democrats. What's happening now is to help frame the debate for the next several elections.
Just a friendly reminder to keep it... well, friendly. No personal attacks please.
Thanks.
There's really nothing left of the community and the only reason I still post is because of some sort of misguided optimism that things can get better. Or maybe it was rage. I don't know.
Also, on topic in response to that assertion that people voted in these clowns, let's take a look at how their voter base and districts are completely separated from the greater reality: http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/comment/2013/09/meadows-boehner-defund-obamacare-suicide-caucus-geography.html
EDIT: Also, I find it hilarious that you're still moderating during this. It's like tending the garden while Rome burns.
I guess we just disagree on the means of achieving the best health care for the largest number of people.
I have no faith in the federal government to manage the healthcare industry, to value medical record privacy (IRS political targeting, NSA leaks, etc. haven't helped strengthen my faith in government to be honest, impartial and effective and to protect sensitive info),
and I don't like the idea of care rationing, increased taxes on medical devices, nor do I like the special exemptions given to government employees, politically-connected corporations (and soon unions), the coverage of illegal immigrants, tax payer-funded abortions, and most especially the fact that we would be saddling future generations with an unthinkable amount of debt.
No, I believe there are better options. Here is a summary of a few that I think most people could agree on: http://www.gop.gov/indepth/pledge/healthcare
The broader debate is about the role of the central government in our lives. Should states be forced to give up more power to the federal government?
My opinion is also an opinion. I don't need to intellectually defend my opinions because all opinions are equal and valid no matter how little thought or knowledge go into forming them. Now it's off to the gumdrop forest to bottle sunshine and the wonder in a child's eye.
Thanks for the comparison, Nero.