I don't think any companies set out to cover up bad gameplay with pretty graphics. They shoot to be great at both, but since they are completely independent of each other, one mark can be reached while the other fails.
You may be right. You certainly have more experience working there than I do.
It seems to me that some just want to sell, and graphics are more of a first impression thing than story is. I could be mistaken. It could be a matter of proportions: graphics have improved exponentially, maybe it's not that the writing and originality are lower, but that the /appear/ lower by comparison.
Anyway, I'm not really worried about Sam & Max 3. I'm more bouncy than worried. I'm definitely preordering it as soon as I can, you won't hear any "oh no, you changed stuff, now it sucks, you've lost a customer" or anything.
I'm not being very consistent here, am I?... I trust you guys because you've done great stuff. I'm behind you about the "experimenting, trying new things rather than stay in what's safe". And on the other hand I'm all "it's not broken, don't fix it" and "I don't want to be disappointed again".
I realise it must be pretty annoying for you. And I really appreciate the fact that you're actually listening and answering. I don't think many companies would do that much.
In my mind, the problem with Gameplay vs Graphics is that as the quality of the graphics increase, generally so does the cost of developing the game.
So suddenly you are spending millions and millions of dollars developing the game, and you HAVE to recoup that money or your company WILL go under. So what happens is a lot of companies say "crap, we can't have a flop on our hands. We can't really afford to try some brand new untested gameplay, because what if people don't like it? We need to stick to something we KNOW people are comfortable with."
Basically, most developers can't afford to do some crazy unique new gameplay style, or they risk going under. That's why a lot of the really cool innovative stuff is coming out of indie developers these days.
I don't think any companies set out to cover up bad gameplay with pretty graphics. They shoot to be great at both, but since they are completely independent of each other, one mark can be reached while the other fails.
If you mean those who actually develop the game, then I can assume they start out with good intentions - although if they shoot for "safe" gameplay (as Will said), then without ambitions it's much easier to end up with a subpar result. However, I do think that publishers like EA don't give sh*t about gameplay - they focus on the aspects that make the games easier to market.
In my mind, the problem with Gameplay vs Graphics is that as the quality of the graphics increase, generally so does the cost of developing the game.
So suddenly you are spending millions and millions of dollars developing the game, and you HAVE to recoup that money or your company WILL go under. So what happens is a lot of companies say "crap, we can't have a flop on our hands. We can't really afford to try some brand new untested gameplay, because what if people don't like it? We need to stick to something we KNOW people are comfortable with."
Basically, most developers can't afford to do some crazy unique new gameplay style, or they risk going under. That's why a lot of the really cool innovative stuff is coming out of indie developers these days.
That's definitely true for groundbreaking ideas - however, you can have highly enjoyable gameplay in an ordinary genre, with ordinary ideas. Unfortunately, this also seems to be out of focus for a lot of games.
Some people complained that the move to direct control was because of consoles, and they're partly right, but not in the way they think. When people working on Wallace & Gromit plugged in an Xbox controller and started making Wallace move around directly, it felt a lot cooler than pointing somewhere and then watching him walk. So they put the effort into getting that feeling across on all the platforms. The keyboard is a decent way of doing it on a PC, and the click-and-drag was added for people who want to play with just the mouse. Telltale will keep refining the interface, but there's always going to be a bit of translation with the mouse because it's inherently designed to work in the 2 dimensions of your screen instead of the 3 dimensions of the game world.
Ok, now that makes SOME more sense than other explanations I've heard. I don't buy the "cinematic angles" argument, as I have stated elsewhere there is no reason why you need to see the floor with point and click!
Now, there is a distinct problem with keyboard control: it's not analogue.
WASD is fine in FPS games because you can steer in an analogue way with the mouse. But in a game where your character is moving on a fixed plane, keyboard controls are suddenly the dark ages.
Personally, watching the character find their own way to the target is one thing I *like* about adventure games. It feels like a cartoon which I am directing. Direct control is TOO direct: I sometimes make mistakes which the character would NEVER make, such as colliding with a wall or bit of scenery. This takes me out of the story because I am reminded that I am playing a computer game.
Ho, hum. This debate is clearly becoming some kind of Holy War. It seems to me that there are two camps of people, and neither side is going to be swayed from their opinion. If Telltale were to concede to a compromise - such as the option to choose between direct control or point and click - then I would be extremely happy!
Direct control is TOO direct: I sometimes make mistakes which the character would NEVER make, such as colliding with a wall or bit of scenery. This takes me out of the story because I am reminded that I am playing a computer game.
I know people have been talking about how controlling the person directly is more like being "them", so I thought I'd share that I disagree.
When you click on the place where you want to go, you're like the character: they, too, look at the place they want to go, think "hum, I'm going to go there", and just go there, without thinking of the way there.
When you have to select them and drag them, well it made me feel like I'm not the character anymore, but some kind of God with the character as a chiffon puppet I'm dragging around.
It feels like instead of being them, I'm someone else controlling them.
Apparently people have the opposite view...
Note that I don't feel the same about using the keyboard. My problems with a keyboard are different. Consoles have joysticks and stuff that you can move and it feels more natural, a keyboard feels more robotic. I mean who takes 90 degree turns when they're walking instead of walking at an angle?
That's why I asked earlier if it could be played with a joystick. Because if it can I'm all for buying one, but I don't want to buy one for nothing.
When you have to select them and drag them, well it made me feel like I'm not the character anymore, but some kind of God with the character as a chiffon puppet I'm dragging around.
It feels like instead of being them, I'm someone else controlling them.
Apparently people have the opposite view...
Note that I don't feel the same about using the keyboard. My problems with a keyboard are different. Consoles have joysticks and stuff that you can move and it feels more natural, a keyboard feels more robotic. I mean who takes 90 degree turns when they're walking instead of walking at an angle?
The funny thing is that most (german) game magazines also make statments like (quote from PC Games 02/2010, page 97):
"Wer das Spiel nur mit der Maus bedienen will, dürfte wenig Freude daran haben" translated "Who want's to play with mouse will have no fun."
"Wer eine ordentliche, klassische Maussteuerung erwartet, muss bei Tales of Monkey Island die Zähne zusammenbeißen." - free translated: "If you want a proper classical mouse steering you wil suffer alot in ToMI"
"Steuerung: Per Maus eine Qual! Die Kombination aus Maus und Tastatur ist beherrschbar, aber trotzdem unkomfortabel. Das Inventar ist umständlich, ..." translated: "Control: Mouse usage means Torture! Combination of mouse and keyboard is controllable, but not comfortable. The inventar usage is cumbersome, ..."
And ( he all four comments on the same magazine age (i left out some with bad perspective and so on)
"Furchtbare Maussteuerung und durchwachsene Maus-Tastatur-Steuerung" "Gruesome mouse steering and perfoilate mouse-keyboard steering"
And I tell you something: Nearly all magazines which i have read and where something about ToMI was mentioned have the same opinion about the mouse control in ToMI. PCGames is a bit funny, because the still put up a list of games you should have played. You won't find ToMI on it, put the "Curse of Monkey Island" is still number three on adventures ( and none of the top adventures has something which isn't point and click).
The funny thing is that most (german) game magazines also make statments like (quote from PC Games 02/2010, page 97):
"Wer das Spiel nur mit der Maus bedienen will, dürfte wenig Freude daran haben" translated "Who want's to play with mouse will have no fun."
"Wer eine ordentliche, klassische Maussteuerung erwartet, muss bei Tales of Monkey Island die Zähne zusammenbeißen." - free translated: "If you want a proper classical mouse steering you wil suffer alot in ToMI"
"Steuerung: Per Maus eine Qual! Die Kombination aus Maus und Tastatur ist beherrschbar, aber trotzdem unkomfortabel. Das Inventar ist umständlich, ..." translated: "Control: Mouse usage means Torture! Combination of mouse and keyboard is controllable, but not comfortable. The inventar usage is cumbersome, ..."
And ( he all four comments on the same magazine age (i left out some with bad perspective and so on)
"Furchtbare Maussteuerung und durchwachsene Maus-Tastatur-Steuerung" "Gruesome mouse steering and perfoilate mouse-keyboard steering"
And I tell you something: Nearly all magazines which i have read and where something about ToMI was mentioned have the same opinion about the mouse control in ToMI. PCGames is a bit funny, because the still put up a list of games you should have played. You won't find ToMI on it, put the "Curse of Monkey Island" is still number three on adventures ( and none of the top adventures has something which isn't point and click).
Well why now use A,W,S,D and the mouse...it's just like anyother game, just the mouse control wasn't that bad either.
So I see the debate is still raging. You'd think pages and pages of verbal combat would have been enough to settle things during the summer. Well, technically it was settled, in the sense that the antithesis of point and click adventure has won and all future games are going to be 3rd person shooter style WASD or "here's a way to use your mouse, now shut up about it" click and drag. We must lay down our arms, or at least our left hands, upon the keyboards of cumbersomeness and taste the bitter cinematic camera angles of defeat.
I guess since Tales of Monkey Island was the biggest commercial success so far for Telltale, that instantly translates into "people love the new control scheme!" So the debate is over. We of the point and click army have lost. If months of bitching in multiple page threads wasn't enough to sway our devoted, but still market conscious, game providing overlords, a few more months of the same isn't going to save our beloved rabbitdog and bunnyman from a fate worse than cancellation.
I still wonder how different things might have been, had ToMI been the first game that Telltale had released, when they were coming back with regular old point and click. Would it have sold as massively, just on the basis of its name value, even with bad old mouse-only controls? Would that have been a selling point, for people that loathed MI4's system? We'll never know now. At least we'll always have Sam and Max Seasons 1 & 2 and Strong Bad's Cool Game for Attractive People to remember how the dream of old school point and click was fulfilled, if only for a brief shining moment.
At least we'll always have Sam and Max Seasons 1 & 2 and Strong Bad's Cool Game for Attractive People to remember how the dream of old school point and click was fulfilled
How are the controls of Wallace & Gromit? Like Tales?
If months of bitching in multiple page threads wasn't enough to sway our devoted, but still market conscious, game providing overlords, a few more months of the same isn't going to save our beloved rabbitdog and bunnyman from a fate worse than cancellation.
Point and click seems completely out of the question but we don't know anything else. They might very well have been working hard trying to find something we'd be happier with. We'll only know when Sam & Max 3 comes out.
W&G's controls are with the keyboard only, there is no click and drag.
Wow that's too bad for them. I will make sure not to buy those titles.
They should definitely put this matter to vote. Since the adventure crowd are a "small" group compared to other games, they are fairly represented here and we are the ones who buy their games. They should ask people here what they prefer.
To clarify: you can still point-and-click on objects in W&G, only moving around requires the keyboard. It's not unlike TOMI without the click-and-drag, except that there's also the option of using keyboard keys to cycle through and activate hotspots.
Some people complained that the move to direct control was because of consoles, and they're partly right, but not in the way they think. When people working on Wallace & Gromit plugged in an Xbox controller and started making Wallace move around directly, it felt a lot cooler than pointing somewhere and then watching him walk. So they put the effort into getting that feeling across on all the platforms. The keyboard is a decent way of doing it on a PC, and the click-and-drag was added for people who want to play with just the mouse. Telltale will keep refining the interface, but there's always going to be a bit of translation with the mouse because it's inherently designed to work in the 2 dimensions of your screen instead of the 3 dimensions of the game world.
While I do appreciate this, what has always been my issue is that I feel as a rule you should design around the system the game is being released for. Yes, direct control can and does feel cool, I will always prefer playing 'Escape From Monkey Island' on the PS2 rather than my computer for that precise reason.
I still think the best examples of UI designed for system are Revolution's various ports of 'Broken Sword'. The GBA version had direct control that felt great, however it didn't feel missing from the other versions (although I know they regret having not done this for the PS1 release). The DS and AppStore versions use the amazingly immersive and intuitive drag and tap interface whereas the Wii used the most user friendly interface for that particular system: point and click.
The close up screens do arguably* lend to a more cinematic look however don't add a great deal to the engagement of the story and/or characters. Don't get me wrong, I have loved 'Tales of Monkey Island' (having finally been able to play through the final episode on WiiWare - thanks NOE ) from beginning to end, but each time I boot it up, my minds eye imagines how much more enjoyable it would be if the camera would back up a bit and I could move around and explore in the same way I did Woodtick all those years ago. Not because of nostalgia, but because of ease of use and simplicity.
At the moment I feel this takes us a step backwards, to a time when cinematic beauty and interesting angles came at the cost of usability. While the controls certainly aren't as aggravating as, say, 'Resident Evil' the same frustrations can and have occurred: angles that obscure; moving accidentally in the wrong direction; difficulty selecting moving objects etc.
It is interesting looking at other genres and what has been happening as of late. Take the arcade beat-em-ups for example and how in 'Street Fighter IV' Capcom has pulled the camera back, making use of 3D where appropriate (cinematic special moves and character intros etc.) but found that the more traditional setup allows for more dramatic, but simple to pick up, gaming as opposed to 'Dissidia', where although given strong cinematic flair main complaints from players and reviewers seem to be aimed at the complex controls and keeping the enemy in sight with the somewhat awkward camera, yet no real complaints seem to be being made of the simplified control of 'Tatsunoko VS Capcom'. Even 'Sonic' and 'Metroid' are making there way back to a more traditional style.
Artists understandably want to make games as visually interesting as possible, but surely usability should be first and foremost. I don't think I could go so far as calling keyboard control in an adventure game "decent", especially as the genre came to mainstream popularity once the keyboard was no longer the main way to interact with them. As much as I applaud Telltale for trying to innovate, I feel the end user had been left with two passable rather than user friendly UIs.
Although no doubt unfeasible, it would be great if it were possible for a game 'shell' to exist where UIs could be tried out by users and feedback received before having to be implemented into a final release.
* perhaps I'm mistaken but I believe that long shots are cinematic. I don't think I would have felt more immersed in '2001: A Space Odyssey' if the camera swooped around and through the space station.
I think WASD + Mouse is vastly superior to just simple point and click. You can point and click on any object to move to or interact with them, and otherwise it takes a third of a second to run 5 feet to the right in order to be able to click on it.
It streamlines the entire experience since your left hand is focused on moving your character through the game and your right hand is focused on looking for items/hotspots with the mouse.
I see your point, but can't say that I agree - it adds an additional control scheme that is unintuitive to more (for want of a better word) casual gamers. I have witnessed first hand several people who enjoyed the earlier games, but are put off by these control schemes.
While personally I can tolerate the setup, neither feel as intuitive as that on the Wii, and even then my girlfriend will just sit and watch rather than picking up the controller herself to play because the nunchuck is an additional complexity and the remote only setups "feel weird". I admit that I'm on the other end of the spectrum here and have used all the different control setups each time I've played an episode of 'Tales' on the Wii.
While personally I can tolerate the setup, neither feel as intuitive as that on the Wii, and even then my girlfriend will just sit and watch rather than picking up the controller herself to play because the nunchuck is an additional complexity and the remote only setups "feel weird". I admit that I'm on the other end of the spectrum here and have used all the different control setups each time I've played an episode of 'Tales' on the Wii.
I really love the controls of Tales on the Wii. The analog stick makes movement so much more fluid. I only wish I could combine the analog stick's fluidity with the precision of a mouse.
I really love the controls of Tales on the Wii. The analog stick makes movement so much more fluid. I only wish I could combine the analog stick's fluidity with the precision of a mouse.
Ya. I'm not a fan of the click 'n drag method, but the WASD doesn't bother me. Once you play with a controller though, you see why direct control can feel just as intuitive as point and click. I understand the complaints, but since I have the luxury of working here and understanding what seemingly seems like 2 issues that shouldn't effect each other, I prefer working with a game that has direct control. It really opens up a lot more doors as far as what we can do. In a perfect world we would be able to support all 4(?) movement types, but we make these decisions in hopes to create a better game experience. And sometimes we make people unhappy. Hopefully there is enough laughter and happiness to drown out the tears.
While I do appreciate this, what has always been my issue is that I feel as a rule you should design around the system the game is being released for.
Which is a fair point, except in Telltale's case it is and is probably always going to be the systems the game is being released on. Telltale's games are planned from the start to reach as wide an audience as possible, which means as many platforms as possible. Cynics will claim that that's a money grab, but hopefully more people will realize it's also an attempt to get the games to as many people as want to play them. And a game that works great on point and click but is a pain to play with a controller is just plain broken.
Also, direct control doesn't mean "console," and mouse support doesn't mean "point and click." The games with direct control are designed for PCs (and now, Macs) because they support WASD keyboard movement and selecting objects with the mouse. The "bit of translation" I was talking about was specifically about the click-and-drag scheme; it's not an exact translation of your mouse movement to your character movement, but it's convenient enough for players who don't want to use the keyboard, that we include it anyway.
The close up screens do arguably* lend to a more cinematic look however don't add a great deal to the engagement of the story and/or characters. [...] At the moment I feel this takes us a step backwards, to a time when cinematic beauty and interesting angles came at the cost of usability.
And there's where I disagree. It's not purely a visual thing; it's an important part of how the game feels. I've been playing the Tales of Monkey Island episodes lately, and it just feels more immersive than the earlier games, which were constrained to basically a 2D plane of movement on a stage set. Guybrush feels like he's in a real, three-dimensional environment, instead of walking in front of a painting of a real environment.
And in Sam & Max, we can finally start taking advantage of two things: true 360 degree environments, and puzzles that take advantage of where you are, instead of just what objects you're interacting with.
I do welcome new tech and innovation but it should enhance the situation and not worsen it.
Afterall i still prefer point&click because to me it's the most natural and less stressing input method which i have seen by using a mouse and for adventure games i just prefer the mouse over the controller.
With tools like XPadder you can tweak the controller steering to a pleasing degree but it's okayish, not fantastic.
Technically, proper mouse point&click in an 3d environment is doable and it should be a main feature because there is a reason why we ended up with this so far.
It just feels so plain wrong beeing able to click on items in a scene and the character walks there but if you click on a chair right next to the clickable item, the character isn't moving at all. Design issues which can drag you out of the game.
S&M 3 is the first title where we might see if the new control scheme is actually putting people off, as it should be pretty easy to see if there is any difference in sales.
I will not buy SM3, since I have a real distaste for the new control scheme. It feels too clumsy and awkward for me.
Ps. A small question, do you have much sales on the consoles? I think you probably have your biggest sales on PC, correct? Could we be able to see some data? Also, is the wii or the Xbox your biggest console?
In that case if Season 3 sells better than Season 2 can we say that direct control has "won" the argument?
As for console sales we do not publicize sales data, but as has been said multiple times consoles are not the sole cause for the change. It is an aesthetic and, more importantly, a design choice.
Also, I suggest that you play the demo for SM3 before you throw it out based on an assumed control scheme.
Although I really hated the new controls when W&G came out (my rants can be found on this very forum), I've gotta admit that ToMI has successfully... well, I wouldn't say convinced me, but made me not care. Tales was such a great experience that I forgot about the controls altogether (although I've switched between keyboard controls and click'n'drag regularly, depending on what felt most comfortable at a time), which is a testament to how well they work.
In that case if Season 3 sells better than Season 2 can we say that direct control has "won" the argument?
As for console sales we do not publicize sales data, but as has been said multiple times consoles are not the sole cause for the change. It is an aesthetic and, more importantly, a design choice.
Also, I suggest that you play the demo for SM3 before you throw it out based on an assumed control scheme.
Now when is this demo you speak of coming out........
I thought it was like 'No, click and drag is AWESOME, you are definitely WRONG, and I can prove it with this demo version of the very first episode we intended to release some months later!"
Telltale's games are planned from the start to reach as wide an audience as possible, which means as many platforms as possible...
But should it not be as user friendly an interface as possible too? Casual gamers, or at least those I am friends with, really don't seem to understand the WASD setup, I think predominantly because they seem like randomly assigned keys and I have personal experience of people forgetting which keys to use and just giving up.
...a game that works great on point and click but is a pain to play with a controller is just plain broken.
Couldn't agree more, hence the example of 'Broken Sword'. Here is a game that was designed as a point and click but when converted to GBA was altered to direct control and changed again to drag and tap for touch screen devices and with each iteration the controls worked because they were retooled for the system(s) of release rather than trying to use one UI that works for every version. The only complaints I've ever seen over the interface for this game was the clunky, unrefined controls on the Playstation.
However using 'Tales of Monkey Island' as an example we have a game that has been designed (at least for initial release) for two systems where the most user friendly interface is the pointer, so the controller dilemma becomes a non-issue. And on a side note, while the click and drag doesn't feel that great with the mouse (or wii remote) I can imagine it working well on the iPhone
The games with direct control are designed for PCs (and now, Macs) because they support WASD keyboard movement...
Personally I've had issue with WASD since the days of the Amstrad CPC, but I realise that's just me WASD (in general) feels more last resort than by design. They may be the most ergonomic keys to use on a keyboard however that doesn't make them especially built for that purpose.
It's not purely a visual thing; it's an important part of how the game feels. I've been playing the Tales of Monkey Island episodes lately, and it just feels more immersive than the earlier games, which were constrained to basically a 2D plane of movement on a stage set. Guybrush feels like he's in a real, three-dimensional environment, instead of walking in front of a painting of a real environment.
And here we'll have to agree to disagree I guess. I never felt that Guybrush was walking in front of a painting (although it feels a little more like that in the Special Edition, I admit) because of his interaction with the environment. Despite having some of the flattest backgrounds in the game I always found the finale of 'LeChuck's Revenge' full of tension while trying to avoid said Zombie Pirate because I was immersed in the story and the setting (and I say this having just replayed the first four episodes and the 5th for the first time and currently making my way through the original two games on the Amiga).
As for 'Sam & Max', I truly can't wait to see what you come up with. All I can do is hope for release on the Wii or that I can get my hands on a PS3 by the time it's released!
Keep up the great work - each time I think Telltale have made their best game ever you go and make something more awesome than the last and if the only thing I can nit-pick about is the control scheme that is an awful amount of other things that are being done right
But should it not be as user friendly an interface as possible too? Casual gamers, or at least those I am friends with, really don't seem to understand the WASD setup, I think predominantly because they seem like randomly assigned keys and I have personal experience of people forgetting which keys to use and just giving up.
Er... You can also use the arrows, you know. I always do. I'm one of these people who "always forget which key" if I use letters. But the arrows have, well, arrows on them, so it's not like you can forget which key does what.
Er... You can also use the arrows, you know. I always do. I'm one of these people who "always forget which key" if I use letters. But the arrows have, well, arrows on them, so it's not like you can forget which key does what.
I used the arrows until I discover the WASD in Wallace and Gromit. Then play the game in my bed was more confortable ^^!
I have trouble pressing keys without looking at them. If they say ZQSD or WASD I just get confused and have to take a minute to remember which is which (Yeah, I know, you'd think the position would tip me off). If they say up, down and so on however I'm not confused!
So, I don't know about Tales because I played it with the mouse, but W&G definitely lets you use the arrow keys.
I think what is always missed in this argument is that Telltale have actually designed a great control system for adventure games on the console. That has been a big hurdle for many years. From all reports people have struggled with the point and click of Sam & Max on Xbox, yet Wallace & Gromit with a controller is great, and ToMI with the wiimote and nunchuck worked very well. If Telltale eventually releases their games across all platforms, the console is a great option for those complaining about the PC's control system. Personally it took me about 15-20 minutes to adjust on the PC and I quickly forgot about it. The writing and the humor matters most to me, not how to move a character around.
It's a little bit like playing a fps on a console, yes it somehow works, but as soon as you return to a computer with a mouse it's a complete different story. Saying so even for the click&drag (not sure if this is the right term) method there is room for improvement. So far it's feels more like a not so well implemented V1.
If Telltale eventually releases their games across all platforms, the console is a great option for those complaining about the PC's control system.
Wait, so you're saying that people who dislike the PC system should just buy a console and rebuy the games?
I'm glad they have a system that works well for consoles but that doesn't mean PC gamers should suffer from it, just like it used to be the other way around.
Well 110 million wii, ps3 and xbox360 consoles have been sold worldwide so it's a nice market to hit... If you are that outraged by the control system why wouldn't you buy something that works better if you haven't got a console already..I'm thinking most gamers would have one.,
I was just trying to point out that you sounded like you were contradicting yourself to me. You said:
That has been a big hurdle for many years. From all reports people have struggled with the point and click of Sam & Max on Xbox, yet Wallace & Gromit with a controller is great, and ToMI with the wiimote and nunchuck worked very well. If Telltale eventually releases their games across all platforms, the console is a great option for those complaining about the PC's control system.
So, it was a big deal that it wasn't practical to play on the console, but if it's not practical to play on a computer, they should just get a console? Why not the other way around, if they don't like how it works on the console then they should buy a computer? That's what I meant.
If you are that outraged by the control system why wouldn't you buy something that works better
I think there will always be a stage between "I dislike the controls enough that I won't buy it for my computer even though I love the series" and "I love the series so much that I'm going to buy a console so I can play the game anyways".
Not to mention the people who don't care that much about the series and are just not going to buy the game.
It also seems to me that if you love the series enough to buy a different console so you can play it, you probably also love it enough to play with controls you dislike, as it seems like a much smaller effort to make.
Comments
"Let's make a game with awesome music and all that! Forget the rest, people will SO buy it!"
You may be right. You certainly have more experience working there than I do.
It seems to me that some just want to sell, and graphics are more of a first impression thing than story is. I could be mistaken. It could be a matter of proportions: graphics have improved exponentially, maybe it's not that the writing and originality are lower, but that the /appear/ lower by comparison.
Anyway, I'm not really worried about Sam & Max 3. I'm more bouncy than worried. I'm definitely preordering it as soon as I can, you won't hear any "oh no, you changed stuff, now it sucks, you've lost a customer" or anything.
I'm not being very consistent here, am I?... I trust you guys because you've done great stuff. I'm behind you about the "experimenting, trying new things rather than stay in what's safe". And on the other hand I'm all "it's not broken, don't fix it" and "I don't want to be disappointed again".
I realise it must be pretty annoying for you. And I really appreciate the fact that you're actually listening and answering. I don't think many companies would do that much.
So suddenly you are spending millions and millions of dollars developing the game, and you HAVE to recoup that money or your company WILL go under. So what happens is a lot of companies say "crap, we can't have a flop on our hands. We can't really afford to try some brand new untested gameplay, because what if people don't like it? We need to stick to something we KNOW people are comfortable with."
Basically, most developers can't afford to do some crazy unique new gameplay style, or they risk going under. That's why a lot of the really cool innovative stuff is coming out of indie developers these days.
If you mean those who actually develop the game, then I can assume they start out with good intentions - although if they shoot for "safe" gameplay (as Will said), then without ambitions it's much easier to end up with a subpar result. However, I do think that publishers like EA don't give sh*t about gameplay - they focus on the aspects that make the games easier to market.
That's definitely true for groundbreaking ideas - however, you can have highly enjoyable gameplay in an ordinary genre, with ordinary ideas. Unfortunately, this also seems to be out of focus for a lot of games.
Ok, now that makes SOME more sense than other explanations I've heard. I don't buy the "cinematic angles" argument, as I have stated elsewhere there is no reason why you need to see the floor with point and click!
Now, there is a distinct problem with keyboard control: it's not analogue.
WASD is fine in FPS games because you can steer in an analogue way with the mouse. But in a game where your character is moving on a fixed plane, keyboard controls are suddenly the dark ages.
Personally, watching the character find their own way to the target is one thing I *like* about adventure games. It feels like a cartoon which I am directing. Direct control is TOO direct: I sometimes make mistakes which the character would NEVER make, such as colliding with a wall or bit of scenery. This takes me out of the story because I am reminded that I am playing a computer game.
Ho, hum. This debate is clearly becoming some kind of Holy War. It seems to me that there are two camps of people, and neither side is going to be swayed from their opinion. If Telltale were to concede to a compromise - such as the option to choose between direct control or point and click - then I would be extremely happy!
I know people have been talking about how controlling the person directly is more like being "them", so I thought I'd share that I disagree.
When you click on the place where you want to go, you're like the character: they, too, look at the place they want to go, think "hum, I'm going to go there", and just go there, without thinking of the way there.
When you have to select them and drag them, well it made me feel like I'm not the character anymore, but some kind of God with the character as a chiffon puppet I'm dragging around.
It feels like instead of being them, I'm someone else controlling them.
Apparently people have the opposite view...
Note that I don't feel the same about using the keyboard. My problems with a keyboard are different. Consoles have joysticks and stuff that you can move and it feels more natural, a keyboard feels more robotic. I mean who takes 90 degree turns when they're walking instead of walking at an angle?
That's why I asked earlier if it could be played with a joystick. Because if it can I'm all for buying one, but I don't want to buy one for nothing.
I exactly agree
"Wer das Spiel nur mit der Maus bedienen will, dürfte wenig Freude daran haben" translated "Who want's to play with mouse will have no fun."
"Wer eine ordentliche, klassische Maussteuerung erwartet, muss bei Tales of Monkey Island die Zähne zusammenbeißen." - free translated: "If you want a proper classical mouse steering you wil suffer alot in ToMI"
"Steuerung: Per Maus eine Qual! Die Kombination aus Maus und Tastatur ist beherrschbar, aber trotzdem unkomfortabel. Das Inventar ist umständlich, ..." translated: "Control: Mouse usage means Torture! Combination of mouse and keyboard is controllable, but not comfortable. The inventar usage is cumbersome, ..."
And ( he all four comments on the same magazine age (i left out some with bad perspective and so on)
"Furchtbare Maussteuerung und durchwachsene Maus-Tastatur-Steuerung" "Gruesome mouse steering and perfoilate mouse-keyboard steering"
And I tell you something: Nearly all magazines which i have read and where something about ToMI was mentioned have the same opinion about the mouse control in ToMI. PCGames is a bit funny, because the still put up a list of games you should have played. You won't find ToMI on it, put the "Curse of Monkey Island" is still number three on adventures ( and none of the top adventures has something which isn't point and click).
Well why now use A,W,S,D and the mouse...it's just like anyother game, just the mouse control wasn't that bad either.
I guess since Tales of Monkey Island was the biggest commercial success so far for Telltale, that instantly translates into "people love the new control scheme!" So the debate is over. We of the point and click army have lost. If months of bitching in multiple page threads wasn't enough to sway our devoted, but still market conscious, game providing overlords, a few more months of the same isn't going to save our beloved rabbitdog and bunnyman from a fate worse than cancellation.
I still wonder how different things might have been, had ToMI been the first game that Telltale had released, when they were coming back with regular old point and click. Would it have sold as massively, just on the basis of its name value, even with bad old mouse-only controls? Would that have been a selling point, for people that loathed MI4's system? We'll never know now. At least we'll always have Sam and Max Seasons 1 & 2 and Strong Bad's Cool Game for Attractive People to remember how the dream of old school point and click was fulfilled, if only for a brief shining moment.
Point and click seems completely out of the question but we don't know anything else. They might very well have been working hard trying to find something we'd be happier with. We'll only know when Sam & Max 3 comes out.
W&G's controls are with the keyboard only, there is no click and drag.
They should definitely put this matter to vote. Since the adventure crowd are a "small" group compared to other games, they are fairly represented here and we are the ones who buy their games. They should ask people here what they prefer.
While I do appreciate this, what has always been my issue is that I feel as a rule you should design around the system the game is being released for. Yes, direct control can and does feel cool, I will always prefer playing 'Escape From Monkey Island' on the PS2 rather than my computer for that precise reason.
I still think the best examples of UI designed for system are Revolution's various ports of 'Broken Sword'. The GBA version had direct control that felt great, however it didn't feel missing from the other versions (although I know they regret having not done this for the PS1 release). The DS and AppStore versions use the amazingly immersive and intuitive drag and tap interface whereas the Wii used the most user friendly interface for that particular system: point and click.
The close up screens do arguably* lend to a more cinematic look however don't add a great deal to the engagement of the story and/or characters. Don't get me wrong, I have loved 'Tales of Monkey Island' (having finally been able to play through the final episode on WiiWare - thanks NOE
At the moment I feel this takes us a step backwards, to a time when cinematic beauty and interesting angles came at the cost of usability. While the controls certainly aren't as aggravating as, say, 'Resident Evil' the same frustrations can and have occurred: angles that obscure; moving accidentally in the wrong direction; difficulty selecting moving objects etc.
It is interesting looking at other genres and what has been happening as of late. Take the arcade beat-em-ups for example and how in 'Street Fighter IV' Capcom has pulled the camera back, making use of 3D where appropriate (cinematic special moves and character intros etc.) but found that the more traditional setup allows for more dramatic, but simple to pick up, gaming as opposed to 'Dissidia', where although given strong cinematic flair main complaints from players and reviewers seem to be aimed at the complex controls and keeping the enemy in sight with the somewhat awkward camera, yet no real complaints seem to be being made of the simplified control of 'Tatsunoko VS Capcom'. Even 'Sonic' and 'Metroid' are making there way back to a more traditional style.
Artists understandably want to make games as visually interesting as possible, but surely usability should be first and foremost. I don't think I could go so far as calling keyboard control in an adventure game "decent", especially as the genre came to mainstream popularity once the keyboard was no longer the main way to interact with them. As much as I applaud Telltale for trying to innovate, I feel the end user had been left with two passable rather than user friendly UIs.
Although no doubt unfeasible, it would be great if it were possible for a game 'shell' to exist where UIs could be tried out by users and feedback received before having to be implemented into a final release.
* perhaps I'm mistaken but I believe that long shots are cinematic. I don't think I would have felt more immersed in '2001: A Space Odyssey' if the camera swooped around and through the space station.
It streamlines the entire experience since your left hand is focused on moving your character through the game and your right hand is focused on looking for items/hotspots with the mouse.
While personally I can tolerate the setup, neither feel as intuitive as that on the Wii, and even then my girlfriend will just sit and watch rather than picking up the controller herself to play because the nunchuck is an additional complexity and the remote only setups "feel weird". I admit that I'm on the other end of the spectrum here and have used all the different control setups each time I've played an episode of 'Tales' on the Wii.
I really love the controls of Tales on the Wii. The analog stick makes movement so much more fluid. I only wish I could combine the analog stick's fluidity with the precision of a mouse.
Ya. I'm not a fan of the click 'n drag method, but the WASD doesn't bother me. Once you play with a controller though, you see why direct control can feel just as intuitive as point and click. I understand the complaints, but since I have the luxury of working here and understanding what seemingly seems like 2 issues that shouldn't effect each other, I prefer working with a game that has direct control. It really opens up a lot more doors as far as what we can do. In a perfect world we would be able to support all 4(?) movement types, but we make these decisions in hopes to create a better game experience. And sometimes we make people unhappy. Hopefully there is enough laughter and happiness to drown out the tears.
Also, direct control doesn't mean "console," and mouse support doesn't mean "point and click." The games with direct control are designed for PCs (and now, Macs) because they support WASD keyboard movement and selecting objects with the mouse. The "bit of translation" I was talking about was specifically about the click-and-drag scheme; it's not an exact translation of your mouse movement to your character movement, but it's convenient enough for players who don't want to use the keyboard, that we include it anyway.
And there's where I disagree. It's not purely a visual thing; it's an important part of how the game feels. I've been playing the Tales of Monkey Island episodes lately, and it just feels more immersive than the earlier games, which were constrained to basically a 2D plane of movement on a stage set. Guybrush feels like he's in a real, three-dimensional environment, instead of walking in front of a painting of a real environment.
And in Sam & Max, we can finally start taking advantage of two things: true 360 degree environments, and puzzles that take advantage of where you are, instead of just what objects you're interacting with.
Afterall i still prefer point&click because to me it's the most natural and less stressing input method which i have seen by using a mouse and for adventure games i just prefer the mouse over the controller.
With tools like XPadder you can tweak the controller steering to a pleasing degree but it's okayish, not fantastic.
Technically, proper mouse point&click in an 3d environment is doable and it should be a main feature because there is a reason why we ended up with this so far.
It just feels so plain wrong beeing able to click on items in a scene and the character walks there but if you click on a chair right next to the clickable item, the character isn't moving at all. Design issues which can drag you out of the game.
I will not buy SM3, since I have a real distaste for the new control scheme. It feels too clumsy and awkward for me.
Ps. A small question, do you have much sales on the consoles? I think you probably have your biggest sales on PC, correct? Could we be able to see some data? Also, is the wii or the Xbox your biggest console?
As for console sales we do not publicize sales data, but as has been said multiple times consoles are not the sole cause for the change. It is an aesthetic and, more importantly, a design choice.
Also, I suggest that you play the demo for SM3 before you throw it out based on an assumed control scheme.
Now when is this demo you speak of coming out........
I thought it was like 'No, click and drag is AWESOME, you are definitely WRONG, and I can prove it with this demo version of the very first episode we intended to release some months later!"
Oh well.
I totally understand that, and and am thankful for it, being one of those people with only a Wii and a Mac (not powerful enough to run 'Tales'
But should it not be as user friendly an interface as possible too? Casual gamers, or at least those I am friends with, really don't seem to understand the WASD setup, I think predominantly because they seem like randomly assigned keys and I have personal experience of people forgetting which keys to use and just giving up.
Couldn't agree more, hence the example of 'Broken Sword'. Here is a game that was designed as a point and click but when converted to GBA was altered to direct control and changed again to drag and tap for touch screen devices and with each iteration the controls worked because they were retooled for the system(s) of release rather than trying to use one UI that works for every version. The only complaints I've ever seen over the interface for this game was the clunky, unrefined controls on the Playstation.
However using 'Tales of Monkey Island' as an example we have a game that has been designed (at least for initial release) for two systems where the most user friendly interface is the pointer, so the controller dilemma becomes a non-issue. And on a side note, while the click and drag doesn't feel that great with the mouse (or wii remote) I can imagine it working well on the iPhone
Personally I've had issue with WASD since the days of the Amstrad CPC, but I realise that's just me
And here we'll have to agree to disagree I guess. I never felt that Guybrush was walking in front of a painting (although it feels a little more like that in the Special Edition, I admit) because of his interaction with the environment. Despite having some of the flattest backgrounds in the game I always found the finale of 'LeChuck's Revenge' full of tension while trying to avoid said Zombie Pirate because I was immersed in the story and the setting (and I say this having just replayed the first four episodes and the 5th for the first time and currently making my way through the original two games on the Amiga).
As for 'Sam & Max', I truly can't wait to see what you come up with. All I can do is hope for release on the Wii or that I can get my hands on a PS3 by the time it's released!
Keep up the great work - each time I think Telltale have made their best game ever you go and make something more awesome than the last and if the only thing I can nit-pick about is the control scheme that is an awful amount of other things that are being done right
Er... You can also use the arrows, you know. I always do. I'm one of these people who "always forget which key" if I use letters. But the arrows have, well, arrows on them, so it's not like you can forget which key does what.
I used the arrows until I discover the WASD in Wallace and Gromit. Then play the game in my bed was more confortable ^^!
So, I don't know about Tales because I played it with the mouse, but W&G definitely lets you use the arrow keys.
Wait, so you're saying that people who dislike the PC system should just buy a console and rebuy the games?
I'm glad they have a system that works well for consoles but that doesn't mean PC gamers should suffer from it, just like it used to be the other way around.
So, it was a big deal that it wasn't practical to play on the console, but if it's not practical to play on a computer, they should just get a console? Why not the other way around, if they don't like how it works on the console then they should buy a computer? That's what I meant.
I think there will always be a stage between "I dislike the controls enough that I won't buy it for my computer even though I love the series" and "I love the series so much that I'm going to buy a console so I can play the game anyways".
Not to mention the people who don't care that much about the series and are just not going to buy the game.
It also seems to me that if you love the series enough to buy a different console so you can play it, you probably also love it enough to play with controls you dislike, as it seems like a much smaller effort to make.