To those of you complaining about the puzzles, I guess it's really down to the person, I admit that I've got stuck in Previous seasons and had to use hints, but this episode I did it all in one night because I just couldn't leave it. It did feel all classic puzzle design like but it all made sense, I was actually stumped for about 15 minutes on the last fight until I put tow and two together and just got a big smile on my face!
you don't make a game like a movie and then put in the game as an afterthought that should keep pace moving along like a film. The very IDEA that the GAME in a GAME does not matter is not only baffling, it's simply WRONG.
...I see you've never played any of the Metal Gear Solid games. Two. Hour. Cutscenes.
All joking aside... You all are overreacting if you really think you should be taking it to the 'screaming and yelling' extreme. Just sit down and realize that people have their own opinions, the lot of ya. I've had countless urges to try to slap Rather Dashing back to reality, but every time, I've realized that he has the right to think that Season 3 isn't good, and slapped MYSELF back to reality.
Why don't you all just, oh, I dunno, slap yourselves?
...I see you've never played any of the Metal Gear Solid games. Two. Hour. Cutscenes.
All joking aside... You all are overreacting if you really think you should be taking it to the 'screaming and yelling' extreme. Just sit down and realize that people have their own opinions, the lot of ya. I've had countless urges to try to slap Rather Dashing back to reality, but every time, I've realized that he has the right to think that Season 3 isn't good, and slapped MYSELF back to reality.
Why don't you all just, oh, I dunno, slap yourselves?
I should have used bold or(even better) italics. The caps were meant to emphasize, not to imply anger or rage. My bad.
This episode really suprised me - in good both and bad ways. I usually know clearly where I stand with games, but with BtAotD, I just can't seem to decide if I like it or not. This is how it looks for me:
The first part of the game (until getting out of Stinky's) was awesome. Very good cinematography, excellent dialog, laughed my head off when
Skunkape was taken away by the clones
(and also at Sam's alpha male comment), and I really liked the puzzles there - the combination of
mind reading and dialogs were excellent
.
Then the next part was basically a drivel. Uninteresting locations, long and pointless dialog trees, OK-ish humour, and the Lovecraft aspect way overdone. Even in the music. Some of the puzzles were nice here (the dimensional destabilizer puzzle is great, I enjoyed that one immensely), that's the best I can say.
Then the final scene at the
Statue of Liberty
was quite good - the boss battle puzzle was good, although it felt like ages to build (I mean the
"change song, click half a dozen times, read mind" sequence four times
)
... and I didn't like the ending. I'm well aware that I may be alone with this - still.
I guess I need a replay soon - probably that puts everything in place.
@Rather Dashing: there's one thing I don't understand. If you're so enthusiastic about the puzzles in 304, then why do you hate 302? From my point of view, the quality of puzzle design and the difficulty of the puzzles were quite similar in these two episodes.
@Rather Dashing: there's one thing I don't understand. If you're so enthusiastic about the puzzles in 304, then why do you hate 302? From my point of view, the quality of puzzle design and the difficulty of the puzzles were quite similar in these two episodes.
Really? I mean, I'd agree that it was leaps and bounds ahead of 301 and 303, and perhaps lumping it together is unfair, but overall it felt far weaker than anything in Seasons One and Two. There were a couple really good puzzles in there(Getting
Jurgen and the Vampire Elf to meet
and
cutting the bust in half
, but otherwise refer to the above.
One big thing about 304 is that there are a lot more red herrings and a ton more concurrently-running puzzles than in 302. When you have a lot of goals to accomplish, things that are useful can still be red herrings, because you may have things relevant to all of the major puzzles and you'll have to think about which is important and then how to use it.
I suppose things were running concurrently in 302, but it felt like there was only one puzzle at a time in each timeline, and they were so disparate that you could tell when you had to jump around a bit.
I also love the way the psychic powers were applied here, and I think the finale was a far better puzzle(which is important, the last impression puzzle should be one of the best ones).
Maybe our minds work somewhat differently, and you had more trouble with 302 than I did because of it. Maybe the fact that I played 302 on and off over the course of a month didn't help it in terms of feeling like a cohesive experience. I don't know. But the impression I got from it was that it was in the same league as the two episodes surrounding it, if not completely equal.
I also felt that episodes 2 and 4 were pretty on par in terms of puzzle difficulty. But I think I enjoyed the puzzles in episode 2 a little bit more; they had that clever twisted "adventure game-y" sort of logic, whereas the puzzles in episode 4 were almost too logical and straightforward.
One big thing about 304 is that there are a lot more red herrings and a ton more concurrently-running puzzles than in 302. When you have a lot of goals to accomplish, things that are useful can still be red herrings, because you may have things relevant to all of the major puzzles and you'll have to think about which is important and then how to use it.
I suppose things were running concurrently in 302, but it felt like there was only one puzzle at a time in each timeline, and they were so disparate that you could tell when you had to jump around a bit.
Again, interesting - 302 felt very parallel to me. You could be doing usually two reels in parallel, multiple puzzles / reel, and there were only few "synch" points.
I also love the way the psychic powers were applied here, and I think the finale was a far better puzzle(which is important, the last impression puzzle should be one of the best ones).
Fair enough - the final showdown in 302 was not in the same league as in 304.
Maybe our minds work somewhat differently, and you had more trouble with 302 than I did because of it.
It's the other way around, actually - I didn't have any problem in either episode. I had to experiment here and there in both, but that's part of the fun. I never felt stuck for a moment.
Also, the strongest point of 302 for me was the atmosphere - I can imagine it got demolished by the long timespan (I usually finish these games in two 1-2 hour sessions, mostly on subsequent days).
But also, it's possible that we differ this much
"You actually agree with the only valid opinion on the season(Mine, of course), because..."
There's always discussions when you move in between absolutes, in the thresholds. But there's a difference between argumentation when your intention is good (as in constructive and positive) and argumentation from a purely emotional standpoint. I think you base what you think on your own feelings and these feelings have so different roots for you that they have nothing to do with objectively experiencing the game and all about your internal issues.
Just telling you, you're kind of out of line when the difference is extremely clear when you compare s1 and s3 in a vacuum. If TTG released an episode like the Mole and the Meatball now there would be massive disappointment in the forums.
I don't even know ...
I don't know where ... best of the season.
I'm telling you the most probably reasons why your view is completely biased. It would have been different if you had eaten say a proper breakfast that day after having some sweet morning sex.
Do people enjoy pretending not to like things? I wasn't aware that this was a common hobby.
You tell me, I didn't label 301, 302 and 303 as "all style, no substance and plain boring" and still replayed "them several times".
Wish I could rephrase myself less flamey, but I'm certain you're mature enough to take a step back as suggested, maybe realize some stuff about yourself or maybe realize you think I'm wrong and then carry on.
I'll be perfectly honest here, you're the one sounding like you're on pms. Taking items out of context and dismissing them based solely because they're not of the same opinion as you seems a bit unfair.
It must be horrible being you. When everything has to be perfect, when nothing can have faults, then nothing is ever truly exceptional. I don't generally like putting numbers on things, because a number can't sum up what a thing is, and certainly if you looked at things at all critically, you'd see that there are differences between things and that those differences create different reactions within you. Now, I'm not saying you'd end up coming to the same conclusions as I did if you thought about it, just that you'd find that SOMETHING causes SOME deviation in how much you like an episode.
Nothing is "just about the story". Not even books. A book can have an excellent story, but written in a style that's so wooden and boring that actually going about and reading it is dull. A film can have terrible camera angles, poor acting, really poor use of effects, a bad art style, poor cinematography, bad editing, etc that make a great story come off terribly. A puzzle game comes out and changes the focus, now it's a game that has to be played. If getting TO the story is completely dull because it pretends that minor chores meant to unlock the next quip are, in fact, PUZZLES, the game itself is boring to play and badly designed, no matter WHAT else is going on, because that's the VERY BASIC DESIGN OF THE GAME, that's the very DEFINITION of your interaction with the world, and it's what separates THIS medium from others. You don't write a book like a screenplay or vice-versa, you don't make a game like a movie and then put in the game as an afterthought that should keep pace moving along like a film. The very IDEA that the GAME in a GAME does not matter is not only baffling, it's simply WRONG.
Out of all the posts in this topic, this one bothers me because:
All you're doing is looking at his opinion and telling him how it must relate to his life and what it must mean to him when all you're really saying is how it relates to/what it means to you. That doesn't make his opinion bad, and it definitely doesn't make it "horrible to be him". All you're really doing is spouting an ideal where everyone needs to think about things and people critically like you, which is all fine and good, but you're ignoring the merits of/his individuality in a laid-back, casual personality who would rather enjoy something for what it is (escapist entertainment) and who just doesn't care enough to spend his time nitpicking what should be a positive time-wasting experience. Just because people don't go about it like you doesn't make them idiots, although I can see where you say "it must be horrible to be you" in that for you it would be horrible to be him, but for him that is his ideal and that's how he likes it and you don't have the right or the place to tear him down for it. Because then you're just pushing your opinion/weight around onto others and calling it an absolute, which IT. IS. NOT.
Oh, and learn to read what people write. He didn't say it was "just about the story" as you read, he said it was "also about the story in addition to the puzzles and gameplay".
Oops, woop, wait, this is a Secret Fawful post. Better ignore it, it's one of those long windy things that probably doesn't contain anything intelligent. My mistake.
oh dear guys let's calm down the argument. this is a thread for opinions on 304 not complaining about others' views. if u think they're wrong, say it nicely...
I think part of what made 304 so epic was the mystery throughout and the constant presence of the sam clones above.
There's always discussions when you move in between absolutes, in the thresholds. But there's a difference between argumentation when your intention is good (as in constructive and positive) and argumentation from a purely emotional standpoint.
I don't see how. There is, of course, difference between good arguments and bad ones, but if you were heavily disappointed with something, I don't know why you're not allowed to actually say that. Especially since some people have been doing this for Tenyears without any incident for things that are more widely unpopular. It seems to me that the only difference here is that there are some things that are acceptable to dislike, and some things that are not, and the latter category isn't allowed to be treated the same as something that you may dislike just as much but also has the collective vitriol of the community.
It seems to me that if I really dislike something popular, suddenly I am expected to temper my opinions down or find a way to express them "positively", which I simply don't think is an honest representation. I try not to directly insult specific forum members, and the way I see it that's all a person needs to do. If someone absolutely LOVES something that I despise, that doesn't mean I have to interrogate them about personal issues when the original point was just that they thought Episode II: Attack of the Clones was the best film. That's not discussion, that's anathema to discussion. A better course of action would be to take what they said about the films, and counter them with my own interpretation of things, rather than simply saying that they must not actually think what they say they think. And at the end of the day we may still strongly disagree. That's okay.
I think you base what you think on your own feelings and these feelings have so different roots for you that they have nothing to do with objectively experiencing the game and all about your internal issues.
One thing that you must know is that you don't objectively experience art. Nobody does. Now, you can try to be objective, and I think I've been fairly close to it. You can be objective and also at the end think, "Wow, that was REALLY badly done". If it's a follow-up to something that you thought was incredibly impressive, then your reaction can manifest in extreme disappointment. If, for example, you think that plot in a film has been replaced with special effects, and everyone else says it has to be objectively better because the effects are better, then you're left wondering why nobody else gets the point, that a film isn't about the effects. In the same way, a game isn't "about" the story, or the cinematography, or the graphics, etc. These things are part of the presentation, and they're IMPORTANT, but if what they're supporting isn't solid, the whole thing falls apart.
Just telling you, you're kind of out of line when the difference is extremely clear when you compare s1 and s3 in a vacuum. If TTG released an episode like the Mole and the Meatball now there would be massive disappointment in the forums.
And that's fine by the forum-goers, I'm sure. I think you put far too much faith in your allegedly Vulcan-esque quality assessment. I think you find yourself believing that you can give an exact and scientific value to quality. You can't. Nobody can. Nobody experiences things in a vacuum, and it's impossible for somebody to go into an emotional and mental vacuum. I can say that if I am bored out of interest several times throughout a fairly short game, to the point that it takes me a month to muster up the energy and the willpower to actually slog through it, then it is not an engaging form of entertainment.
I'm telling you the most probably reasons why your view is completely biased. It would have been different if you had eaten say a proper breakfast that day after having some sweet morning sex.
Biased how? I went into The Penal Zone expecting nothing less than to be enthralled, the same state I was in when I went into Ice Station Santa. The latter didn't bore me to tears, why should I expect less of the former?
You tell me, I didn't label 301, 302 and 303 as "all style, no substance and plain boring" and still replayed "them several times".
I don't think I ever said I "replayed them several times", because I didn't. I think you're remembering or misconstruing something I said earlier. It could be related to teh fact that my single playthrough of episodes 2 and 3 more or less spanned the entire month between games because I stopped after getting disinterested in them. I certainly didn't go back for seconds when it comes to any of the first three episodes of Season Three.
Wish I could rephrase myself less flamey, but I'm certain you're mature enough to take a step back as suggested, maybe realize some stuff about yourself or maybe realize you think I'm wrong and then carry on.
I think you're wrong, and I'm willing to have a civil discussion as to why I think you're wrong. I think the arguments that you are presenting are anti-discussion and simply willfully ignorant, though, they're ideas that allow you to close your eyes and pretend that what you just read is a fabrication of some sort. It seems to me that you prefer denying that alternate viewpoints can logically exist rather than engaging in an actual conversation, which is just about the worst attitude a person can bring into a discussion forum.
Out of all the posts in this topic, this one bothers me because:
All you're doing is looking at his opinion and telling him how it must relate to his life and what it must mean to him when all you're really saying is how it relates to/what it means to you. That doesn't make his opinion bad, and it definitely doesn't make it "horrible to be him". All you're really doing is spouting an ideal where everyone needs to think about things and people critically like you, which is all fine and good, but you're ignoring the merits of/his individuality in a laid-back, casual personality who would rather enjoy something for what it is (escapist entertainment) and who just doesn't care enough to spend his time nitpicking what should be a positive time-wasting experience. Just because people don't go about it like you doesn't make them idiots, although I can see where you say "it must be horrible to be you" in that for you it would be horrible to be him, but for him that is his ideal and that's how he likes it and you don't have the right or the place to tear him down for it. Because then you're just pushing your opinion/weight around onto others and calling it an absolute, which IT. IS. NOT.
I don't know about you, but I think that this kind of thinking is inherently worse than thinking about things in any sort of critical way. When you understand what the structure of a thing is and why it works(and hence, when it is simply not working), then you gain a far deeper appreciation of the medium as a whole. People act as though connoisseurs and critics suck the fun out of things, but that's simply not the case, unless you happen to be living in a world in which nothing is special, nothing has intrinsic value, and every piece of entertainment is exactly the same as any other. It just seems so shallow.
Maybe I'm too critical of this kind of thought process, but it seems to me that a person becomes critical by learning to understand what they're consuming, and learning is inherently good.
Oh, and learn to read what people write. He didn't say it was "just about the story" as you read, he said it was "also about the story in addition to the puzzles and gameplay".
I took this too far. You're actually absolutely right in this regard. Still, I find the idea of rebuffing an argument about puzzles, the very heart of an adventure game, as being equal to story or capable of being supplanted by a story as patently absurd. It seems like missing the point, like the person really shouldn't be playing adventure games in the first place, because what's the inherent interest there? Perhaps I'm just being nitpicky in this case, though, and I can definitely see where you're coming from.
Oops, woop, wait, this is a Secret Fawful post. Better ignore it, it's one of those long windy things that probably doesn't contain anything intelligent. My mistake.
I'd like it if you could stop being so defensive and sarcastic about what you assume other people think. It comes off as very pompous, whether or not you have something good to say. I'm not in the mood for a fight, I rarely am, and honestly I feel like I've had a lot of hostility thrust at me, when I don't have any hostility toward anybody else. Sure, I don't like some video games, and you like those video games. Is that a reason to attack my character, and hijack a thread to make it about me and my perceived issues rather than keeping it as a discussion about video games?
Sorry, this last part of the post is probably combining aspects of both posts into a singular super-post, and I apologize for the organizational clusterfuck.
Seriously, take a step back and realize that you don't like s3 only because you either has some emotional nostalgic problems or a compulsion to go against the masses. It has nothing to do with the quality of the episodes.
That seems like a denial of the idea that quality is a matter of opinion and that anyone who criticizes the game is irrational or has some hidden agenda.
I don't know about you, but I think that this kind of thinking is inherently worse than thinking about things in any sort of critical way. When you understand what the structure of a thing is and why it works(and hence, when it is simply not working), then you gain a far deeper appreciation of the medium as a whole. People act as though connoisseurs and critics suck the fun out of things, but that's simply not the case, unless you happen to be living in a world in which nothing is special, nothing has intrinsic value, and every piece of entertainment is exactly the same as any other. It just seems so shallow.
Maybe I'm too critical of this kind of thought process, but it seems to me that a person becomes critical by learning to understand what they're consuming, and learning is inherently good.
I'm not saying your point of view is wrong. I'm just saying that it's not the absolute standard. Not everyone can or wants to view things in that way, and I can't say it's really bad. Besides while they may not be critical about one thing that they want to put more time into the enjoyment of, they might use a critical attitude elsewhere. And while it doesn't necessarily suck the fun out of things, I've never really seen someone who didn't have a decrease in their enjoyment of something when they started picking it apart.
I'd like it if you could stop being so defensive and sarcastic about what you assume other people think. It comes off as very pompous, whether or not you have something good to say. I'm not in the mood for a fight, I rarely am, and honestly I feel like I've had a lot of hostility thrust at me, when I don't have any hostility toward anybody else. Sure, I don't like some video games, and you like those video games. Is that a reason to attack my character, and hijack a thread to make it about me and my perceived issues rather than keeping it as a discussion about video games?
Sorry, this last part of the post is probably combining aspects of both posts into a singular super-post, and I apologize for the organizational clusterfuck.
I wasn't saying it to get a fight, I'm self-depreciating. I completely believe that this is what people think of me and my posts here, so it can make my attitude on trying to come across as intelligent more than a little...bitchy. Its part of being a person who runs on "how I feel" more than "what I think". I've come to be surprised when people reply to my long-windedness, because I also see it all as long-winded and HATE THAT. I'm stuck in a mindset where I hate how I talk yet feel compelled to keep talking that way. I don't like pompousness or hoity-toityness, and would rather prefer to be a simple silly person but it doesn't seem to work out that way for me all the time. In retrospect I shouldn't have said what I said, but I literally could not help it.
I'm not telling you to change (your opinion is fresh and exciting), but I do get a rod shoved up my ass when you take it too far and start tearing someone a new one, although I don't expect to change you on that either, I just say it because..well...I can't help myself. It's hypocritical but I don't care. I believe that people should say the right thing even if they're a hypocrite in saying it.
As far as onlyamonkey, I can't help with him, I didn't read what he said once I saw Giant Tope had to tell him to calm down, so I wrote him off almost immediately from that.
I mean as far as this particular episode, I could sit here and pick it apart (and I have a lot I'd love to pick apart on it) but why would I do that? I'd end up not wanting to play it again. Even when other people pick a game apart I find myself not wanting to play the game after reading all of that, because to me everyone makes valid points. I could barely enjoy They Stole Max's Brain at all after all the complaints I read about the noir being too short and the third part being so bland. I still haven't beaten it because of that; it ruined my enjoyment before I played the game. Now imagine how much I would hate the game if I picked it apart.
....And I didn't like the thing with Max going glowy and fighting Charlie in mid-air. It was a sudden plot device that was thrown in with no warning so Charlie wouldn't be unstoppable and it was gone just as quickly as it came, only serving a purpose for one puzzle and no story development. I mean serious, no super-powered Max puzzles? Are we just gonna ignore the potential in this for one game of Chameleon? REALLY? Okay, then. There. Happy? Now I can't ever play the game again. lol On top of which it was a little too dramatic by that point. The boss fight with the piano puzzle was great, but by floaty glowy time it was layering drama on top of drama and it started to feel like a completely different game.
Seriously, take a step back and realize that you don't like s3 only because you either has some emotional nostalgic problems or a compulsion to go against the masses. It has nothing to do with the quality of the episodes.
I think nostalgia doesn't work on people who got into the franchise clean and innocent in 2007. (Why did I just creeped myself out right now? ^^; ) Especially those said people who played the Telltale version first, then read the comics, played HtR, and watched the cartoon and found two of those three better than the Telltale version.
If I wanted to go "against the masses", I wouldn't say anything positive about Season 3. Besides, what's so wrong with stating an opinion? Sometimes people have to stand alone if they truly believe it.
I mean as far as this particular episode, I could sit here and pick it apart (and I have a lot I'd love to pick apart on it) but why would I do that? I'd end up not wanting to play it again. Even when other people pick a game apart I find myself not wanting to play the game after reading all of that, because to me everyone makes valid points. I could barely enjoy They Stole Max's Brain at all after all the complaints I read about the noir being too short and the third part being so bland. I still haven't beaten it because of that; it ruined my enjoyment before I played the game. Now imagine how much I would hate the game if I picked it apart.
If picking apart a game you love causes you to hate it, maybe it isn't a good game after all. I hear a lot of people complain about my favorite games (too "obsolete", too easy/hard, just plain boring, etc) and I've also played my loved games so many times that I later found boring at parts, clunky controls compared to other games I've played, etc. But I still love these games because I have reasons to love something despite the flaws.
Although it sounds weird coming from me, I think you should stop listening to other people (whether they are leaving negative comments or not) and just play the game. Don't let other people's opinions prevent you from finishing a game (or anything for that matter).
It was a sudden plot device that was thrown in with no warning so Charlie wouldn't be unstoppable and it was gone just as quickly as it came, only serving a purpose for one puzzle and no story development.
I liked it because it reminded me how random the comics were. Anything that reminds me of the comics and/or Hit the Road is a major plus. This episode did it at least twice.
Oops, woop, wait, this is a Secret Fawful post. Better ignore it, it's one of those long windy things that probably doesn't contain anything intelligent. My mistake.
You stole my material! Then this is the part where someone says, "Your posts? Who are you and I've never seen you on these forums before." XP
Well I agree with you. I shouldn't let other people's opinions of the game affect my enjoyment of it but somehow it does. I can't explain it. And there is one thing that will get me to replay 304 every time. That is when Sam goes to the Dark Dimensions and comes back all crazy and creepy and weird. THAT is typical sam and max humor to me in that there is no rhyme or reason to it and I LOVE IT.
I think 304 is the weakest of the bunch so far.
The story pace is uneven: too many things to tell, in order to reveal the overall story arc.
Puzzles felt old and formulaic, I found the game VERY easy and consequently rather boring.
The ending was great though, and I laughed at Sam's reactions after his interdimensional travels.
I hope 305 is better than this.
I still think 302 is the best one so far, followed by 301 and 303. I've yet to experience a design structure as mindblowing as 302's.
I enjoyed the puzzles immensely: they're more involved and less straight-forward than in previous episodes. They are well-designed except for the DNA thing which is almost like a rehash of a 204 puzzle.
Exciting story, enriched by a cast with expressive facial expressions. I just don't particularly care for the ending -- I was expecting a 50-feet lagomorph rather than a Stitch-like tentacle monster...
I'm afraid that Dangerzone needs more practice in this kind of games. For many others, the solutions were quite logical.
Dangerzone: "and even though they pull up Max mode right after you use the machine, nothing stated that you need to use the toys to see the changes to Sam after each time you use the machine"
Well, DUH!!! The very same fact that they thrust you into Max mode after Sam returns should be a clue that you have to do something as Max. Say, what has been Max doing the whole season? Using psychic powers on people and objects? Say... they automatically place you in Max mode, with Sam in front of you. Only an insignificant shard of logic is necessary to assume you are to use psychic powers on Sam. And since the different dials produce different reactions, some of them visible... meh, whatever.
I think nostalgia doesn't work on people who got into the franchise clean and innocent in 2007. (Why did I just creeped myself out right now? ^^; ) Especially those said people who played the Telltale version first, then read the comics, played HtR, and watched the cartoon and found two of those three better than the Telltale version.
Yeah, that nostalgic argument sorta bugged me as well.
I see the whole issue about puzzles as well. I've been enjoying the season, but I'm sorta dumb so I've
thought the puzzles have been consistently challenging for me, though not to the caliber of season 2. Season 2's puzzles were pretty much amazing. I think it would make an amazing game if it was the setting and environment of season 3 with the puzzle caliber of season 2.
Note I started playing Sam and Max last December.
...that said, i really enjoyed the the somewhat less hand led puz in the most recent episode.
Yeah, that nostalgic argument sorta bugged me as well.
The nostalgia argument in a way is a somesort of block device for avoid understand why something you think other wise is beloved by someone else. Which is typical.
The best way to understand someone else opinions is understanding first your opinion isn't less valid than the last one and then try to see the quality in the points of the other person. Trying to understand it, instead of just not been agree. Which is difficult to do by myself, but I try to do it most of the time. (There's a couple of points of course I try to avoid because I'm too stumped in my opinion which I think is extremely correct, but I know this mind set doesn't help in a discussion, and then I simple avoid the theme. It's stupid, but, well...).
Ironically, I was thinking in Rather Dashing when I played this game. Of course difficulty depends of the person, but, while I was playing this game, I thought "Maybe he will like this episode!" because this is, maybe, the only episode of the third season I resolved all the puzzles by myself instead of just bump with the solution the half of the time. I don't know if my appreciation is correct, of course, but that's what I'm thinking.
Also, thanks to this thread I understood why I don't like Up! yay.
Just get to the point instead of summing up every minor detail.. e.g. I don't need the entire history of the Latin alphabet to find the meaning of the word Agonizing in the dictionary.
If you like it: why?
If you don't like it: why?
If you are indifferent: why?
All of these options rhyme with easy as pie. <end cheerful rant>
Just get to the point instead of summing up every minor detail.. e.g. I don't need the entire history of the Latin alphabet to find the meaning of the word Agonizing in the dictionary.
If you like it: why?
If you don't like it: why?
If you are indifferent: why?
All of these options rhyme with easy as pie. <end cheerful rant>
At you: Shut the hell up.
I hate you: Because you're trying to change the way I post
I don't like it: Because there's only so much you can summarize before everything's the same, and I like reading longer posts that can have some complexity and differentiation.
Both of these explain why you suck and should die. <end angry bite-sized rant>
I like reading long posts, provided that they have paragraph breaks. I don't like writing them, though. So I don't.
I really liked this episode-- it was the first one of the season that took me a full evening to complete. And at the end, I was squeeing like a fangirl (very quietly because my family was asleep). Yup. :D
Comments
...I see you've never played any of the Metal Gear Solid games. Two. Hour. Cutscenes.
All joking aside... You all are overreacting if you really think you should be taking it to the 'screaming and yelling' extreme. Just sit down and realize that people have their own opinions, the lot of ya. I've had countless urges to try to slap Rather Dashing back to reality, but every time, I've realized that he has the right to think that Season 3 isn't good, and slapped MYSELF back to reality.
Why don't you all just, oh, I dunno, slap yourselves?
I guess I need a replay soon - probably that puts everything in place.
@Rather Dashing: there's one thing I don't understand. If you're so enthusiastic about the puzzles in 304, then why do you hate 302? From my point of view, the quality of puzzle design and the difficulty of the puzzles were quite similar in these two episodes.
One big thing about 304 is that there are a lot more red herrings and a ton more concurrently-running puzzles than in 302. When you have a lot of goals to accomplish, things that are useful can still be red herrings, because you may have things relevant to all of the major puzzles and you'll have to think about which is important and then how to use it.
I suppose things were running concurrently in 302, but it felt like there was only one puzzle at a time in each timeline, and they were so disparate that you could tell when you had to jump around a bit.
I also love the way the psychic powers were applied here, and I think the finale was a far better puzzle(which is important, the last impression puzzle should be one of the best ones).
Maybe our minds work somewhat differently, and you had more trouble with 302 than I did because of it. Maybe the fact that I played 302 on and off over the course of a month didn't help it in terms of feeling like a cohesive experience. I don't know. But the impression I got from it was that it was in the same league as the two episodes surrounding it, if not completely equal.
Interesting - I loved probably all the psychic power puzzles in 302, both with the can of worms and Charlie.
Again, interesting - 302 felt very parallel to me. You could be doing usually two reels in parallel, multiple puzzles / reel, and there were only few "synch" points.
Fair enough - the final showdown in 302 was not in the same league as in 304.
It's the other way around, actually - I didn't have any problem in either episode. I had to experiment here and there in both, but that's part of the fun. I never felt stuck for a moment.
Also, the strongest point of 302 for me was the atmosphere - I can imagine it got demolished by the long timespan (I usually finish these games in two 1-2 hour sessions, mostly on subsequent days).
But also, it's possible that we differ this much
Just telling you, you're kind of out of line when the difference is extremely clear when you compare s1 and s3 in a vacuum. If TTG released an episode like the Mole and the Meatball now there would be massive disappointment in the forums.
I'm telling you the most probably reasons why your view is completely biased. It would have been different if you had eaten say a proper breakfast that day after having some sweet morning sex.
You tell me, I didn't label 301, 302 and 303 as "all style, no substance and plain boring" and still replayed "them several times".
Wish I could rephrase myself less flamey, but I'm certain you're mature enough to take a step back as suggested, maybe realize some stuff about yourself or maybe realize you think I'm wrong and then carry on.
If opinions are more consistent with mood swings than thoughts it should more be labeled as drivel.
Out of all the posts in this topic, this one bothers me because:
All you're doing is looking at his opinion and telling him how it must relate to his life and what it must mean to him when all you're really saying is how it relates to/what it means to you. That doesn't make his opinion bad, and it definitely doesn't make it "horrible to be him". All you're really doing is spouting an ideal where everyone needs to think about things and people critically like you, which is all fine and good, but you're ignoring the merits of/his individuality in a laid-back, casual personality who would rather enjoy something for what it is (escapist entertainment) and who just doesn't care enough to spend his time nitpicking what should be a positive time-wasting experience. Just because people don't go about it like you doesn't make them idiots, although I can see where you say "it must be horrible to be you" in that for you it would be horrible to be him, but for him that is his ideal and that's how he likes it and you don't have the right or the place to tear him down for it. Because then you're just pushing your opinion/weight around onto others and calling it an absolute, which IT. IS. NOT.
Oh, and learn to read what people write. He didn't say it was "just about the story" as you read, he said it was "also about the story in addition to the puzzles and gameplay".
Oops, woop, wait, this is a Secret Fawful post. Better ignore it, it's one of those long windy things that probably doesn't contain anything intelligent. My mistake.
I think part of what made 304 so epic was the mystery throughout and the constant presence of the sam clones above.
It seems to me that if I really dislike something popular, suddenly I am expected to temper my opinions down or find a way to express them "positively", which I simply don't think is an honest representation. I try not to directly insult specific forum members, and the way I see it that's all a person needs to do. If someone absolutely LOVES something that I despise, that doesn't mean I have to interrogate them about personal issues when the original point was just that they thought Episode II: Attack of the Clones was the best film. That's not discussion, that's anathema to discussion. A better course of action would be to take what they said about the films, and counter them with my own interpretation of things, rather than simply saying that they must not actually think what they say they think. And at the end of the day we may still strongly disagree. That's okay.
One thing that you must know is that you don't objectively experience art. Nobody does. Now, you can try to be objective, and I think I've been fairly close to it. You can be objective and also at the end think, "Wow, that was REALLY badly done". If it's a follow-up to something that you thought was incredibly impressive, then your reaction can manifest in extreme disappointment. If, for example, you think that plot in a film has been replaced with special effects, and everyone else says it has to be objectively better because the effects are better, then you're left wondering why nobody else gets the point, that a film isn't about the effects. In the same way, a game isn't "about" the story, or the cinematography, or the graphics, etc. These things are part of the presentation, and they're IMPORTANT, but if what they're supporting isn't solid, the whole thing falls apart.
And that's fine by the forum-goers, I'm sure. I think you put far too much faith in your allegedly Vulcan-esque quality assessment. I think you find yourself believing that you can give an exact and scientific value to quality. You can't. Nobody can. Nobody experiences things in a vacuum, and it's impossible for somebody to go into an emotional and mental vacuum. I can say that if I am bored out of interest several times throughout a fairly short game, to the point that it takes me a month to muster up the energy and the willpower to actually slog through it, then it is not an engaging form of entertainment.
Biased how? I went into The Penal Zone expecting nothing less than to be enthralled, the same state I was in when I went into Ice Station Santa. The latter didn't bore me to tears, why should I expect less of the former?
I don't think I ever said I "replayed them several times", because I didn't. I think you're remembering or misconstruing something I said earlier. It could be related to teh fact that my single playthrough of episodes 2 and 3 more or less spanned the entire month between games because I stopped after getting disinterested in them. I certainly didn't go back for seconds when it comes to any of the first three episodes of Season Three.
I think you're wrong, and I'm willing to have a civil discussion as to why I think you're wrong. I think the arguments that you are presenting are anti-discussion and simply willfully ignorant, though, they're ideas that allow you to close your eyes and pretend that what you just read is a fabrication of some sort. It seems to me that you prefer denying that alternate viewpoints can logically exist rather than engaging in an actual conversation, which is just about the worst attitude a person can bring into a discussion forum.
I don't know about you, but I think that this kind of thinking is inherently worse than thinking about things in any sort of critical way. When you understand what the structure of a thing is and why it works(and hence, when it is simply not working), then you gain a far deeper appreciation of the medium as a whole. People act as though connoisseurs and critics suck the fun out of things, but that's simply not the case, unless you happen to be living in a world in which nothing is special, nothing has intrinsic value, and every piece of entertainment is exactly the same as any other. It just seems so shallow.
Maybe I'm too critical of this kind of thought process, but it seems to me that a person becomes critical by learning to understand what they're consuming, and learning is inherently good.
I took this too far. You're actually absolutely right in this regard. Still, I find the idea of rebuffing an argument about puzzles, the very heart of an adventure game, as being equal to story or capable of being supplanted by a story as patently absurd. It seems like missing the point, like the person really shouldn't be playing adventure games in the first place, because what's the inherent interest there? Perhaps I'm just being nitpicky in this case, though, and I can definitely see where you're coming from.
I'd like it if you could stop being so defensive and sarcastic about what you assume other people think. It comes off as very pompous, whether or not you have something good to say. I'm not in the mood for a fight, I rarely am, and honestly I feel like I've had a lot of hostility thrust at me, when I don't have any hostility toward anybody else. Sure, I don't like some video games, and you like those video games. Is that a reason to attack my character, and hijack a thread to make it about me and my perceived issues rather than keeping it as a discussion about video games?
Sorry, this last part of the post is probably combining aspects of both posts into a singular super-post, and I apologize for the organizational clusterfuck.
Are you sure you clicked the right "quote" button? Because I'm pretty sure that's what onlyamonkey's first post did, not RatherDashing's.
That seems like a denial of the idea that quality is a matter of opinion and that anyone who criticizes the game is irrational or has some hidden agenda.
Those are actually my own thoughts. But, sorry, I didn't see your post before responding to the Secret Fawful post.
I wasn't saying it to get a fight, I'm self-depreciating. I completely believe that this is what people think of me and my posts here, so it can make my attitude on trying to come across as intelligent more than a little...bitchy. Its part of being a person who runs on "how I feel" more than "what I think". I've come to be surprised when people reply to my long-windedness, because I also see it all as long-winded and HATE THAT. I'm stuck in a mindset where I hate how I talk yet feel compelled to keep talking that way. I don't like pompousness or hoity-toityness, and would rather prefer to be a simple silly person but it doesn't seem to work out that way for me all the time. In retrospect I shouldn't have said what I said, but I literally could not help it.
I'm not telling you to change (your opinion is fresh and exciting), but I do get a rod shoved up my ass when you take it too far and start tearing someone a new one, although I don't expect to change you on that either, I just say it because..well...I can't help myself. It's hypocritical but I don't care. I believe that people should say the right thing even if they're a hypocrite in saying it.
As far as onlyamonkey, I can't help with him, I didn't read what he said once I saw Giant Tope had to tell him to calm down, so I wrote him off almost immediately from that.
I mean as far as this particular episode, I could sit here and pick it apart (and I have a lot I'd love to pick apart on it) but why would I do that? I'd end up not wanting to play it again. Even when other people pick a game apart I find myself not wanting to play the game after reading all of that, because to me everyone makes valid points. I could barely enjoy They Stole Max's Brain at all after all the complaints I read about the noir being too short and the third part being so bland. I still haven't beaten it because of that; it ruined my enjoyment before I played the game. Now imagine how much I would hate the game if I picked it apart.
....And I didn't like the thing with Max going glowy and fighting Charlie in mid-air. It was a sudden plot device that was thrown in with no warning so Charlie wouldn't be unstoppable and it was gone just as quickly as it came, only serving a purpose for one puzzle and no story development. I mean serious, no super-powered Max puzzles? Are we just gonna ignore the potential in this for one game of Chameleon? REALLY? Okay, then. There. Happy? Now I can't ever play the game again. lol On top of which it was a little too dramatic by that point. The boss fight with the piano puzzle was great, but by floaty glowy time it was layering drama on top of drama and it started to feel like a completely different game.
I think nostalgia doesn't work on people who got into the franchise clean and innocent in 2007. (Why did I just creeped myself out right now? ^^; ) Especially those said people who played the Telltale version first, then read the comics, played HtR, and watched the cartoon and found two of those three better than the Telltale version.
If I wanted to go "against the masses", I wouldn't say anything positive about Season 3. Besides, what's so wrong with stating an opinion? Sometimes people have to stand alone if they truly believe it.
If picking apart a game you love causes you to hate it, maybe it isn't a good game after all. I hear a lot of people complain about my favorite games (too "obsolete", too easy/hard, just plain boring, etc) and I've also played my loved games so many times that I later found boring at parts, clunky controls compared to other games I've played, etc. But I still love these games because I have reasons to love something despite the flaws.
Although it sounds weird coming from me, I think you should stop listening to other people (whether they are leaving negative comments or not) and just play the game. Don't let other people's opinions prevent you from finishing a game (or anything for that matter).
I liked it because it reminded me how random the comics were. Anything that reminds me of the comics and/or Hit the Road is a major plus. This episode did it at least twice.
You stole my material! Then this is the part where someone says, "Your posts? Who are you and I've never seen you on these forums before." XP
The story pace is uneven: too many things to tell, in order to reveal the overall story arc.
Puzzles felt old and formulaic, I found the game VERY easy and consequently rather boring.
The ending was great though, and I laughed at Sam's reactions after his interdimensional travels.
I hope 305 is better than this.
I still think 302 is the best one so far, followed by 301 and 303. I've yet to experience a design structure as mindblowing as 302's.
Exciting story, enriched by a cast with expressive facial expressions. I just don't particularly care for the ending -- I was expecting a 50-feet lagomorph rather than a Stitch-like tentacle monster...
Dangerzone: "and even though they pull up Max mode right after you use the machine, nothing stated that you need to use the toys to see the changes to Sam after each time you use the machine"
Well, DUH!!! The very same fact that they thrust you into Max mode after Sam returns should be a clue that you have to do something as Max. Say, what has been Max doing the whole season? Using psychic powers on people and objects? Say... they automatically place you in Max mode, with Sam in front of you. Only an insignificant shard of logic is necessary to assume you are to use psychic powers on Sam. And since the different dials produce different reactions, some of them visible... meh, whatever.
Yeah, that nostalgic argument sorta bugged me as well.
I see the whole issue about puzzles as well. I've been enjoying the season, but I'm sorta dumb so I've
thought the puzzles have been consistently challenging for me, though not to the caliber of season 2. Season 2's puzzles were pretty much amazing. I think it would make an amazing game if it was the setting and environment of season 3 with the puzzle caliber of season 2.
Note I started playing Sam and Max last December.
...that said, i really enjoyed the the somewhat less hand led puz in the most recent episode.
I wish there was a smiley for :drool:
The nostalgia argument in a way is a somesort of block device for avoid understand why something you think other wise is beloved by someone else. Which is typical.
The best way to understand someone else opinions is understanding first your opinion isn't less valid than the last one and then try to see the quality in the points of the other person. Trying to understand it, instead of just not been agree. Which is difficult to do by myself, but I try to do it most of the time. (There's a couple of points of course I try to avoid because I'm too stumped in my opinion which I think is extremely correct, but I know this mind set doesn't help in a discussion, and then I simple avoid the theme. It's stupid, but, well...).
Ironically, I was thinking in Rather Dashing when I played this game. Of course difficulty depends of the person, but, while I was playing this game, I thought "Maybe he will like this episode!" because this is, maybe, the only episode of the third season I resolved all the puzzles by myself instead of just bump with the solution the half of the time. I don't know if my appreciation is correct, of course, but that's what I'm thinking.
Also, thanks to this thread I understood why I don't like Up! yay.
Just get to the point instead of summing up every minor detail.. e.g. I don't need the entire history of the Latin alphabet to find the meaning of the word Agonizing in the dictionary.
If you like it: why?
If you don't like it: why?
If you are indifferent: why?
All of these options rhyme with easy as pie. <end cheerful rant>
I hate you: Because you're trying to change the way I post
I don't like it: Because there's only so much you can summarize before everything's the same, and I like reading longer posts that can have some complexity and differentiation.
Both of these explain why you suck and should die. <end angry bite-sized rant>
I really liked this episode-- it was the first one of the season that took me a full evening to complete. And at the end, I was squeeing like a fangirl (very quietly because my family was asleep). Yup.
Bite sized rant... Hm... Is it too late to change my username?
Clearly, you must be REALLY pushing out with things just to criticize if you take up the realty space of about 4-6 posts.
Sometimes, if you have a very long drawn-out thought, don't say anything at all.
fixed