So Mr. Whitta what do you have against "Johns"?
I think everyone over the age of 10 knows what a John is. It's the clientele of Prostitutes.
This has to do with the character Logan, and while he is a divisive character in a harsh environment; I don't understand some reactions on the forum.
It seems most people misconstrue prostitution for rape. I am not condoning his actions or condemning Molly's.
I have said if this scenario had occurred outside of the Zombie apocalypse. Where Molly's sister was substituted for a child, or infact, it could still be her sister in this scenario, and we exchange the insulin for money.
Molly's child/sister is at home and the food in the cupboard is dwindling and Molly chooses to prostitute herself for money to buy food to bring home to said child/younger sister. How is this a demonstrable act on Logan's part or Molly's part.
If the "John" said. I'm sorry my wife and I are reconciling and I can't do this anymore, and the child starves to death, would the prostitute find the man and stab him for not having sex with her any longer and giving her his income? Then smack his dead body around?
I understand Molly's frustration at the situation, but she could not realistically expect Logan to give away the medicine, defy a lunatic who runs the camp and I am 100% sure Molly would have been the one that propositioned him.
Since Logan could care less if Molly's sister lives or dies, the ball is in her court to make an arrangement suitable enough for him to risk parting with the medicine.
It is Molly who has something to gain, so being a resourceful woman she would tap into primal urges and use the oldest profession in the world to gain the necessities for her loved one.
I know in such short episodes it is difficult to flesh out controversial themes; and sometimes I suppose the quickest and dirtiest way to handle this to use a heavy handed approach, using emotional hair triggers to pull reactions from the easily offended and naive is a writing strategy for juvenile texts, but effective in its own way. It allows those with more liberal views to see Logan as some rape craving monster.
This has to do with the character Logan, and while he is a divisive character in a harsh environment; I don't understand some reactions on the forum.
It seems most people misconstrue prostitution for rape. I am not condoning his actions or condemning Molly's.
I have said if this scenario had occurred outside of the Zombie apocalypse. Where Molly's sister was substituted for a child, or infact, it could still be her sister in this scenario, and we exchange the insulin for money.
Molly's child/sister is at home and the food in the cupboard is dwindling and Molly chooses to prostitute herself for money to buy food to bring home to said child/younger sister. How is this a demonstrable act on Logan's part or Molly's part.
If the "John" said. I'm sorry my wife and I are reconciling and I can't do this anymore, and the child starves to death, would the prostitute find the man and stab him for not having sex with her any longer and giving her his income? Then smack his dead body around?
I understand Molly's frustration at the situation, but she could not realistically expect Logan to give away the medicine, defy a lunatic who runs the camp and I am 100% sure Molly would have been the one that propositioned him.
Since Logan could care less if Molly's sister lives or dies, the ball is in her court to make an arrangement suitable enough for him to risk parting with the medicine.
It is Molly who has something to gain, so being a resourceful woman she would tap into primal urges and use the oldest profession in the world to gain the necessities for her loved one.
I know in such short episodes it is difficult to flesh out controversial themes; and sometimes I suppose the quickest and dirtiest way to handle this to use a heavy handed approach, using emotional hair triggers to pull reactions from the easily offended and naive is a writing strategy for juvenile texts, but effective in its own way. It allows those with more liberal views to see Logan as some rape craving monster.
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Comments
I would strongly advise against that.
To the topic, the first I've heard about Logan's behaviour is in this thread... So take that for what you will.
I agree with you. Logan didn't come across as a rapist, but I think he definitely took advantage of the fact that Molly needed the insuline, so I kinda understand why she went nuts and mutilated his body. I think it was his proposal, rather than hers, but we'll never know.
This, to me, is an extremely poor analogy and if that's the way you think about it then i'm not surprised you're so confused.
Outside of the zombie apocalypse we have schooling that prepares us to be able to get jobs that don't include sex for money. Unless you're some nut whose been preparing for the end times you havent exactly been taught the skills necessary to be able to barter a needed skillset for illicit goods in that situation. This comes down to being lucky enough to have had training in something that just so happens to also be valuable in the zombie apocalypse (and applicable to that specific situation).
The John in your analogy is called a John for good reason, the prostitute knows nothing about him or his situation and he knows nothing about her and her situation. All he's doing is paying for sex, for all he knows she could head on home to a luxury apartment and live the good life off her earnings, or not, it's not something he's privvy to. The doctor however, knows that he has something she absolutely needs. He's in a position of power and he can set the asking price which isn't how it goes in the analogy, where the price is set by the prostitute.
In your analogy you have a conversation between the John and the prostitute that ends the whole thing, that conversation wouldn't happen, the John simply wouldn't come back and another John would fill his place, it wouldn't be such a big deal for the prostitute, she can get that money from other Johns.
Molly only had that doctor to turn to, he took advantage of the situation for his own carnal desires. He made it her only choice, that's why belting the shit out of his zombie arse would make her feel good.
Further more, Molly didn't kill the doctor, she just smashed up his zombie form. That's quite different to your analogy where the prostitute both stabs the John to death then beats on his corpse. One is murder, the other is something that you'll be expected to do every now and then for survival anyway.
You bet your arse he could have just given her the insulin. He's a doctor, he has a skillset thats invaluable to the whole community, he'd get little more than a slap on the wrist. There's no way they'd throw him out or punish him enough that he'd want to leave.
I also disagree that the leader was a lunatic. Aside from no kids, which shows a lack of longterm planning, he actually had a pretty good idea going in preparing that community for the lower standard of health the lack of proper modern medicine would bring them and how they would inevitably have to handle it anyway as their pre apocalypse medical supplies dissapear.
Also, a doctor trading out medicine for 'favors' isn't quite the same as a 'John'.
The sister had Diabetes so once the doctor decided he had to cut off their arrangement she would not be getting the medicine she needed to hide the symptoms. Thus exposing her "disease" to everyone and earning her a one way trip back out into the zombie infested world.
As far as the OP topic if you really don't see the immorality that was going on in that situation remind me if I ever meet you during a ZA not to put you in charge of handing out any major supplies. 'cause with that attitude I have a feeling you would be the first to take advantage of the situation like the doctor did.
It is simply puppy and rainbows and hippy thinking he should just give her the insulin. If I were Logan in the situation I would not have given her either, not even at the proposition of sex. I would have flat out refused to allow Molly to prostitute herself.
Also, your analogy is terrible.
Instead Logan decided to use what power he had over Molly to blackmail her into sex for insulin. He then got paniky when others started snooping and basically sentenced Molly's sister to death.
Yeah I think that deserves a post-dead beating.
Who forced her? If anything her sister forced her. Not Logan.
If she should be mad at anyone it should be God, if you believe in such a thing, or she should be mad at the world.
Wow. You're really doing this?
No matter how twisted the logic or moral compass one may have, the point is there could have been no sex. He could have just gave her the meds that were useless to everybody except her sister. So, yeah, he's pretty much squarely to blame.
Wow, I agree with Red Panda 100% here.
Logan got what he deserved.
I'm starting to see a bigger picture here.
Molly offered Logan sex not only for the insulin but for compensation for his silence? I mean even after he began to become spooked, it didn't seem like he was going to rat out Molly. Then again why would he need to, with no insulin Molly's sister would become worse.
If as you guys said everyone in Crawford was healthy, most wouldn't need insulin. Even if Oberson was suspecting supplies were dwindling.
So would Oberson object to the insulin being taken? Or would he object to Molly's sister being there? Both? Because once you have a steady supply of insulin a Diabetic cannot be out right "spotted" as being sick.
Is this down to shoddy writing and plot? The entire thing seems painfully contrived; Gah...my head is hurting again. I feel sorry for all parties involved.
Once again he's a doctor. They need a doctor. They wouldn't kick him out.
I let it slide the first time when you pre-emptively called people who might disagree with you naive, easily offended and juvenile, but since you wish to continue doing so I'll point it out. Attempting to poison the well with those types of generic ad hominem attacks doesn't help your argument any.
Now, moving away from sunshine and lollipops; history is filled with examples of people, under threat of far worse than the doctor would ever face thanks to his position, selflessly helping others they were told not to and asking nothing in return. These situations were most decidedly not puppies and rainbows.
You really think the sex-for-medicine was her idea? Like she went in there one day and said, "Hey, Dr. Logan, I've got this brilliant plan!" He knew she needed the medicine and I'm sure he set the terms. I doubt he offered her any other payment options like doing his laundry for a month or a big IOU. It wasn't the same as prostitution. It was blackmail or worse.
^^^ All of that... Seriously guys it's not that hard to understand. Consent was dubious at best there.
I don't think my views on consensual prostitution are really appropriate or needed on a forum like this, but I don't need to give them because this is very clearly not a case of it. It's pretty obvious that he pressured her into the situation to begin with, based upon her reactions.
I saw the tapes and the above is not what I observed. What I observed is a less refined economic system called the barter system. At this point in the ZA, the US $ has no value. Unfortunately, doctors still charge for their services in a ZA just like today.
Molly needed insulin. She could have bartered for it in gold, silver, canned goods, livestock, drugs, weed, cigarettes, bullets, jewelery or , being a female, sexual favors. All are valid forms of trade items in a barter system.
I can also see why Molly was so upset with Dr. Logan. They had a deal and he called it off. She sure did a number on walker Logan. I'm sure she blames him for the loss of her sister since he is the one who cancelled their deal.
Sounds like the rules of Crawford changed at some point in time during the ZA. Initially, the "less fit" were part of the community but then something happened and the "less fit" had to go away. Maybe that's what prompted Logan to call off the deal. His medicine inventory is now being tracked where maybe it was not so closely monitored in the past. I think the consequences for breaking the rules also got more severe. Like being shot.
You saw the last, what, thirty seconds of the situation? C'mon man, are you really not seeing why it was wrong or are you just trolling?
But I'm like a sicko on the forum...sooooooo...I dunno..
Ok, even if that is the case - and I sincerely doubt it, since Molly didn't exactly seem happy with the arrangement - letting somebody prostitute themselves in exchange for medicine for their sick sister is not right. Not even in a zombie apocalypse. The guy was slime.
I hear you. I don't like seeing these kinds of things going on either. Barter is just a very basic system where violent death is avoided when two parties agree to trade something they have for something they want. If they can't reach an agreement then they walk away.
I don't see any candidates for sainthood here. Both are survivors who were able to reach an agreement. Not saying I agree or disagree. I'm not even placing it in the context of right or wrong. Just that's what these two decided was okay for a fair trade.
As evidenced by her beating the shit out of his zombie form I doubt she considered it a very fair trade.
L-O-L
Prostitution is a barter system.... sex is traded for cash. sheesh....
In the US, the definition of rape hinges on the lack of consent of the raped person. This is not a universal definition though. Abuse of authority and coercion should well be taken into account. Molly was forced into sexual intercourse by a doctor who had insulin readily available. This wasn't barter, this wasn't prostitution, this wasn't "I take the medicine, you can have the sex". Doctor in a position of power, Molly to comply or her sister dies. It's completely irrelevant whether Molly offered this arrangement first or the Doc did. The doctor was supposed to help her sister, and I don't even have to conjure up the Hippocrates oath to conclude that he did everything but. In a corrupt and inhuman system, the doctor chose to take advantage of the situation until it got too hot for him. This was either rape on his part - or some kind of equally punishable war crime if you wish.
He gave medicine only for sex, which AT LEAST is coercion and should be punished accordingly.
If he refused the medicine, but also the sex, he still would have let her sister die and should be punished accordingly.
If he gave her the medicine without expecting SHIT in return, he would have been a good person and an actual doctor.
I'm sure Molly blames Dr. Logan for the loss of her sister as well as everyone else in Crawford who followed/enforced the rules of that community. She has a lot of anger towards Crawford and many of the things they did that she did not agree with. I'm sure she would have done the same thing if the walker was Oberson rather than Logan.
From the tapes, I only saw Molly get upset at their deal when Dr. Logan called it off. Then Molly got really upset. I did not observe Dr. Logan forcing Molly to do anything or Molly taking the medicine by force. This was a deal they had going for some time until Logan ended the trade.
I don't know if I'd call what he did rape though, rape kind of infers that the sex is forced upon an individual who does not give his/her consent. If she consented, even if she didn't want to do it, that isn't rape. It is exploitation and morally wrong but not rape.
That is a negative. For example, sex with a minor is rape regardless of consent.
And doing what the doctor did is a crime also. It may be civil rather than criminal, depending on the state. No doubt it's malpractice and he would lose his medical license.
US law is very complicated.
I think your whole argument is more about morals than what is legal or criminal. Rape is a crime and it's also immoral. Say bad things to people is immoral but that doesn't mean it's a crime. You're talking about rape in the legal and moral sense and you should really differentiate between the two.
You're presenting a false dichotomy to say he's either raping her or it's a war crime. And it's a war crime because he's raping her so I don't even get the difference.
My issue is I think you're going down a slippery slope. A woman needs money so she sleeps with a man. Does that make her a rape victim, a prostitute, or a gold digger? How do you differentiate between the three?
A patient needs medicine, so her sister sleeps with the doctor. Here's your differentiation, and a better argument for coercion really can't be made.
I think that's a red herring. The real issue is trading something essential for sex. Yes, medicine is not money but that's about where the differences end to me.
I get what you're saying, though. Unlike the other two examples I gave, the medicine is essential.
The thing is, that's the issue with a lot of prostitution. Look at Iraq. A lot of women were poverty stricken and turned to prostitution in other countries to support themselves. They had no other means. Are they being raped everyday? Sexually exploited, no doubt, but is it rape?
if we're talking about the ZA situation, money is no longer relevant.
imo, molly could of offered other trades for the meds, but the doctor being a lonely sad loser wanted to get his end away more, thus having control over her.
in a society of the elite and set rules. i'm guessing molly had her body to give as tribute and by that i mean food/drink/other meds are tightly controlled and guarded.
Very true as stated many times in the thread. It depends on the mind frame and moral compass of the individual you ask. To me it was prostitution out of desperation, but I have also come to see how some could look at it as rape in some form. I'm 70%-30% on the issue in thinking it was a horrible situation of prostitution verses rape, then again the ZA is always horrible situation, and times are dire...