Hopefully we can converse in other threads, nothing personal from this one and I'm glad you understand that. I've seen too many threads (not just in this forum) devolve into who had the biggest e-peen and pure anger.
Good to meet someone who can debate, agree that we both disagree after explaining our points and not meeting on common ground afterwards and still be civil in the end. I would want you in my group of survivors (unless you dropped Ben on purpose the first time!!)
Hopefully we can converse in other threads, nothing personal from this one and I'm glad you understand that. I've seen too many threads (not just in this forum) devolve into who had the biggest e-peen and pure anger.
Good to meet someone who can debate, agree that we both disagree after explaining our points and not meeting on common ground afterwards and still be civil in the end. I would want you in my group of survivors (unless you dropped Ben on purpose the first time!!)
yeah it was on the knife edge of crazy but we made it
i totally saved ben, ben = me in TWD i would hopefully not be as much of a burden but it's mainly just hope
Well one thing I learned after 20 years in the Marine Corps, not every hero thinks they are one and most hero's doubt if they can make it when the time comes. They just do the best they can of a crappy situation.
I'd put my money on you because you stood firm and argued your point without insults or stupidity, you are Grade A in my book! Since you didn't kill Ben we are golden, you can be my number 1.......lol.
***By number 1 I was hinting at the Star Trek theme and his 1st officer if you didn't know, just wanted to be clear on that reference***
This is spiraling out of control here, blackmail is blackmail, rape is rape. This is not debatable.
"Blackmail" is the use of threats or coercion to make you do something that will not physically harm you (generally for money or keeping your mouth shut) but will embarrass or humiliate you. "Rape" is the act of forcing someone to have sex with you (as I'm sure you know) without regard to anything or your feelings.
If we want to use the idea that someone has a gun to your sister/brother/friends head and if you don't do what he/she says then yes, it is rape. Again I stand by my definition of rape (equals no option other to to comply) and blackmail (an option to do one thing or the other).
blackmail [ˈblækˌmeɪl]
n
1. (Law) the act of attempting to obtain money by intimidation, as by threats to disclose discreditable information
2. the exertion of pressure or threats, esp unfairly, in an attempt to influence someone's actions
vb (tr)
1. (Law) to exact or attempt to exact (money or anything of value) from (a person) by threats or intimidation; extort
2. to attempt to influence the actions of (a person), esp by unfair pressure or threats
rape [reyp]
n
1. the unlawful compelling of a person through physical force or duress to have sexual intercourse.
duress [doo-res, dyoo-, door-is, dyoor-]
n
1. compulsion by threat or force; coercion; constraint.
Okay I know I'm kind of comin back into this a little bit late(I thought this thread had actually died, hadn't seen it in a while). But by your own definition he did in fact force her into performing sexual acts with him via blackmail(see bold and underlined definition) which by definition is rape. Whether it's coercion, force or misrepresentation it's still rape.
Okay I know I'm kind of comin back into this a little bit late(I thought this thread had actually died, hadn't seen it in a while). But by your own definition he did in fact force her into performing sexual acts with him via blackmail(see bold and underlined definition) which by definition is rape. Whether it's coercion, force or misrepresentation it's still rape.
Ok since you resurrected this from the grave........
You highlighted good points, however each one suggests (in my opinion) that the victim has absolutely no choice but to give in or risk her/his death otherwise.
Being "talked" into performing a sex act, as bad as it is, is not rape. Rape, at least how I define it is being "made" to perform a sexual act that is 100% against your will.
I again submit that what the doctor did was morally wrong, I hate him, but please let us not call this a rape....rather he was exploiting someone for his own means. Can we please end this thread now??
Rape is a legal definition. It's a crime. So what do the laws say?
There's a question of duress, but I think generally this wouldn't be prosecuted unless Molly gave some indication she didn't want to do this. Denying her medicine is fucked up but not illegal. If he wants to ask for sex in return and she agrees then it's just the deal. Still, he could be convicted of malpractice.
Many states also have redefined lack of consent. Before the 1970s, many courts viewed the element of force from the standpoint of the victim. A man would not be convicted of rape of a competent woman unless she had demonstrated some physical resistance. In the absence of physical resistance, courts usually held that the sexual act was consensual. In the early 2000s in many states, the prosecution can prove lack of consent by presenting evidence that the victim objected verbally to the sexual penetration or sexual intrusion.
Yeah that's what is issue here. We know Logan is a scum bag no one is trying to defend him, but from Mollys perspective. Did she "not want to do it" or did she just "resign herself" and said "OK, douche bag, deal"..... doing it to save the sister?
Yeah that's what is issue here. We know Logan is a scum bag no one is trying to defend him, but from Mollys perspective. Did she "not want to do it" or did she just "resign herself" and said "OK, douche bag, deal"..... doing it to save the sister?
There's no evidence to support anything other than she resigned herself, as you put it.
Rape is a legal definition. It's a crime. So what do the laws say?
I'm far from stating that this is irrelevant. But if we're to evaluate what's happening on screen, it will have to take a back seat. It is not only a fictional narrative (in which moral judgement is always key to the grown-up audience's interpretation); it also is a post-apocalyptic setting in which the laws imposed by any government do not apply - and moral judgement of the fictional characters is in fact the only 'law' to go by.
She didn't have to? Because letting her sister go without the medicine that she needs was really a reasonable option for her? Holy crap, guys, you have a twistedly specific definition of the word "force".
Put it this way...if the guy put a gun to her sister's head and said, "have sex with me or I'll blow her brains out" are you really going to say that's not force?
I already see a flaw in your arguement, Dr Logan did not put a gun up to her head and say have sex with me or I'll blow your brains out, yes that is force but he didn't do that. And you know she agreed because when she had the sex with him she wasn't scared she was serious, not scared that anytime he would turn on her with a gun.
But again, like I said time and time again, taking her sister out of the picture, she wasn't forced to have sex with him, but Dr Logan realised he was the one in control and how desperate Molly was for the medication that he took advantage, Molly did the honarable thing and did something that she never wanted to do but felt like she needed to. I can see where you are coming from but it was exploitation not rape. Dr Logan never pushed Molly against the wall and threatened to shoot her if she didn't have sex with him, nor did he just push her onto the bed and did it with her compliance.
I'm far from stating that this is irrelevant. But if we're to evaluate what's happening on screen, it will have to take a back seat. It is not only a fictional narrative (in which moral judgement is always key to the grown-up audience's interpretation); it also is a post-apocalyptic setting in which the laws imposed by any government do not apply - and moral judgement of the fictional characters is in fact the only 'law' to go by.
I agree and say as much at the end of the post you quoted.
I already see a flaw in your arguement, Dr Logan did not put a gun up to her head and say have sex with me or I'll blow your brains out, yes that is force but he didn't do that. And you know she agreed because when she had the sex with him she wasn't scared she was serious, not scared that anytime he would turn on her with a gun.
We as players have no idea how the situation began. We do not see tapes of all of Molly's encounters with the doctor. He may have, in fact, put a gun to her head and forced her in the beginning. Thereafter, she would have complied because she had no other way to help her sister. Just because she did not appear afraid, doesn't mean she may not have been. To those who equate a girl that was desperate to save the only remaining loved one that she had with a prostitute is an insult; and to those who say she was not harmed, how would you know? We thankfully don't see exactly what he does to this poor girl.
I was so damned irritated typing the above message, I somehow managed to not get the quote I was replying to in it's little blue box. No idea how either.
All I know is the doctor wanted to stop having sexual relations with Molly because he was afraid that Oberson would catch him. Molly was the one saying "Why? If I don't get this medicine my sister would die" which gave me the impression that it was CONSENTED sex. Choosing to have sex or not is "consented sex" not "rape". Molly had a choice.. and she chose to give up the nookie lol. She could've obviously kept her legs closed and kept it moving, but I think that she was so desperate to help her sister that she offered to have sex as an exchange for meds.
Comments
Hopefully we can converse in other threads, nothing personal from this one and I'm glad you understand that. I've seen too many threads (not just in this forum) devolve into who had the biggest e-peen and pure anger.
Good to meet someone who can debate, agree that we both disagree after explaining our points and not meeting on common ground afterwards and still be civil in the end. I would want you in my group of survivors (unless you dropped Ben on purpose the first time!!)
yeah it was on the knife edge of crazy but we made it
i totally saved ben, ben = me in TWD i would hopefully not be as much of a burden but it's mainly just hope
I'd put my money on you because you stood firm and argued your point without insults or stupidity, you are Grade A in my book! Since you didn't kill Ben we are golden, you can be my number 1.......lol.
***By number 1 I was hinting at the Star Trek theme and his 1st officer if you didn't know, just wanted to be clear on that reference***
Okay I know I'm kind of comin back into this a little bit late(I thought this thread had actually died, hadn't seen it in a while). But by your own definition he did in fact force her into performing sexual acts with him via blackmail(see bold and underlined definition) which by definition is rape. Whether it's coercion, force or misrepresentation it's still rape.
Ok since you resurrected this from the grave........
You highlighted good points, however each one suggests (in my opinion) that the victim has absolutely no choice but to give in or risk her/his death otherwise.
Being "talked" into performing a sex act, as bad as it is, is not rape. Rape, at least how I define it is being "made" to perform a sexual act that is 100% against your will.
I again submit that what the doctor did was morally wrong, I hate him, but please let us not call this a rape....rather he was exploiting someone for his own means. Can we please end this thread now??
There's a question of duress, but I think generally this wouldn't be prosecuted unless Molly gave some indication she didn't want to do this. Denying her medicine is fucked up but not illegal. If he wants to ask for sex in return and she agrees then it's just the deal. Still, he could be convicted of malpractice.
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/rape
But in the ZA there is no legal system so you can't commit any crimes, really. All we can do is talk about morality and I think morally he is wrong.
There's no evidence to support anything other than she resigned herself, as you put it.
I'm far from stating that this is irrelevant. But if we're to evaluate what's happening on screen, it will have to take a back seat. It is not only a fictional narrative (in which moral judgement is always key to the grown-up audience's interpretation); it also is a post-apocalyptic setting in which the laws imposed by any government do not apply - and moral judgement of the fictional characters is in fact the only 'law' to go by.
I already see a flaw in your arguement, Dr Logan did not put a gun up to her head and say have sex with me or I'll blow your brains out, yes that is force but he didn't do that. And you know she agreed because when she had the sex with him she wasn't scared she was serious, not scared that anytime he would turn on her with a gun.
But again, like I said time and time again, taking her sister out of the picture, she wasn't forced to have sex with him, but Dr Logan realised he was the one in control and how desperate Molly was for the medication that he took advantage, Molly did the honarable thing and did something that she never wanted to do but felt like she needed to. I can see where you are coming from but it was exploitation not rape. Dr Logan never pushed Molly against the wall and threatened to shoot her if she didn't have sex with him, nor did he just push her onto the bed and did it with her compliance.
Period.
I agree and say as much at the end of the post you quoted.