the thing that annoys me about her approach it that she totally ignores why it is usually females in distress to be saved and that is simply because the main character is male, i don't know what she wants does she want female lead characters that save men or male characters to save other men?
she never offers solutions and just picks and chooses parts of games without any context while putting them into her own "games are sexist" contexts, this may be boring writing but it isn't female disempowerment, what other kind of story can you have that makes the player understand that the character they are playing is so determined to achieve their goal that they are willing to risk their life to achieve it? save the world or save a loved one are just good motivators not an insidious way of disempowering women.
if the main character was female the same thing would happen but with men being "disempowered" and "brutalised" just because these are story tropes not sexist tropes and OMG calling killing a demon that happened to be a women "domestic violence" is f*cking ridiculous and god damn insulting, she is adding her own underlying message and she has a serious chip on her shoulder about it
the thing that annoys me about her approach it that she totally ignores why it is usually females in distress to be saved and that is simply because the main character is male, i don't know what she wants does she want female lead characters that save men or male characters to save other men?
Just imagine it: Clemens instead of Clementine.
Yes there are a ton of stereotypes regarding gender rolls in games but mostly there are male heroes because the majority of players is still male.
And well we need a motivation. So they make it personal. A lover is the easiest way to achieve that and I don't think you will ever save your gay lover in a lot of video games.
They might just kill your dog though (e.g. in Fable 2).
she should make a video about how brilliantly complex and sophisticated male characters are portrayed in video games, it would be about a minute long including intro and outro, then she may realise how stupid it is to claim that this bad story writing is sexist and not just simply bad
She's a woman though. She likes to hear herself talk. (sorry I had to)
Let's rephrase that: She's a feminist and all of them are foll of it. Just like men who think they are better people because they have a penis. A shark beats them easily in that regard.
But where are the female game designers? At Telltale? Eh?
While this sort of discussion might have had its place after the first video, I believe the second video does put the discussion on another level. The examples in there are an exploitation, proven in the pervasiveness of those motifs and the absurd recurrence of their most 'perfected' variants (for example, as identified by Sarkeesian: the "Wife gets killed, save your daughter", the "Mercy kill" and the "lover is killed, now save her soul as well").
You know me, I love a good damsel in distress when I can save one. The trigger has worked for me too, of course. But we're in the age of video game sophistication. When higher standards of representing society are applied to movies and books, we can't just factor out video games. Is a better approach harder to achieve in a medium where the solution to conflict is mostly violence? Certainly. Will these motifs prevail even if designers work hard towards alternatives? Absolutely.
Is there a need to identify these tropes, collect examples and almost scientifically classify the approaches from the 80s to today?
if only feminists could be a man their whole life, then they would realise that any male privilege there may be is equally countered by female privilege, i just think most feminists have a "the grass is greener on the other side" mentality believing that men live on this perfect man world where all you have to do is be a man and you get everything you want.
Crap. Are there actual spoiler spoilers of Hotline: Miami or is it just a general reference to it? I can deal with being spoiled on everything except that.
Having not actually played it I can't say for certain, but I think it's just a general reference.
EDIT: According to the plot synopsis on Wikipedia, it's a mid-game spoiler.
Are you fucking with me. There are actually people arguing here that the male sophisticated narrative is underrepresented.
The female narrative has historically and is still currently underrepresented. The black hero is underrepresented. The Mexican hero is underrepresented. The Asian hero is underrepresented. If you're a white man, guess what, jackpot, EVERY GAME IS ABOUT A VERSION OF YOU. You've got stupid guys, smart guys, scientists, con artists, soldiers, detectives, the list goes on.
And you can't see that that's an issue? That women don't always want to be portrayed as needing rescuing?
"if only feminists could be a man their whole life, then they would realise that any male privilege there may be is equally countered by female privilege, i just think most feminists have a "the grass is greener on the other side" mentality believing that men live on this perfect man world where all you have to do is be a man and you get everything you want. "
I don't even know how to respond to this. White men in America have a better chance of getting hired into particular fields, they will earn more in their lifetimes at the exact same jobs as women, have an infinite number of portrayals throughout the media. Women don't think you live in a perfect world, that's not the issue, the issue is you're so used to your position of privilege that it's the status quo, instead of seeing how everyone else has to play catch up even when things are theoretically 'even'. Women have to be told what to do with their bodies, why they can't get equal medical coverage, be slammed in the media whenever they assert themselves.
"the thing that annoys me about her approach it that she totally ignores why it is usually females in distress to be saved and that is simply because the main character is male"
THIS IS A HUGE DEAL. This is the standard. This is the status quo. This is the default. Despite the fact that women are half our population and minorities make up half the nation, white men are still always the standard hero template. The stories always go to this. THAT IS A PROBLEM. THAT IS A HUGE PROBLEM. Women do not need to be portrayed as damsels in distress. I'm not saying you can't do it once in a while, but right now it's time to start thinking up new narratives.
I wish every game maker would make video games in which the heroes were always women and minorities, and it was always white men needing rescuing, for one year. A lot of people would get really pissed off. And you know what? GREAT. Because that's how everyone else feels when they see the same tired trope of white men saving everyone else all the time.
Having not actually played it I can't say for certain, but I think it's just a general reference.
EDIT: According to the plot synopsis on Wikipedia, it's a mid-game spoiler.
this is a biggers spoiler "you can use a brick as a weapon" seriously if you think the spoiler in the video was bad you will hate that spoiler i just gave because the "spoiler" in the video was a very small part of the story
this is a biggers spoiler "you can use a brick as a weapon" seriously if you think the spoiler in the video was bad you will hate that spoiler i just gave because the "spoiler" in the video was a very small part of the story
True, but it's still spoiling a part of the story, however small it may be. I calls 'em like I sees 'em.
True, but it's still spoiling a part of the story, however small it may be. I calls 'em like I sees 'em.
The big thing about Hotline Miami is that I'm not sure it's a worthwhile example. MOST of these fit, very very well, but since Hotline Miami has a game narrative largely about game narratives the mirroring is actually intentional and thought out, rather than
victimizing/brutalizing a female cast member because it's an easy default.
Also, I'm with DAISHI on this one. She is, in the broad strokes, RIGHT. Game stories are playing at being mature and yet they constantly work on the level of glorifying and empowering white male protagonists. They're trying to reach a wider base and yet refuse to break out of this box, instead making the problem WORSE by aping at maturity through making the female disempowerment as a function of a male story MORE BRUTAL.
I've given it some thought and I feel that the thing that annoys me about this whole ordeal (and much of modern-day feminism) is the idea that people, especially women, have no agency of their own. The idea that the average woman is being oppressed without realizing it because she hasn't been "enlightened" by feminism is so obnoxious and condescending to me, as if the average person doesn't understand who they are, what they like, and what they believe because they're too stupid to do so by themselves.
I wonder what she thinks about women who cosplay as the characters she feels are offensive?
That is not to say that there isn't any issues at all. There are tons of issues of underrepresentation and general awfulness, which makes it more obnoxious to me that there are people trying to be viewed as victims over situations like rescuing princess peach.
There is a point to it, though. Historically, the people who have enforced female submission the most have been, well, other women. I mean, a huge number of women fought to not have the right to vote when that was in contention and similar attitudes pervade today.
Then again, I'm of the opinion that a lot of the reason that there isn't equality yet is because women aren't angry enough. Maybe they should feel insulted by the feminist, just so that they start thinking about the fact that things aren't equal and get mad about it.
The idea that the average woman is being oppressed without realizing it because she hasn't been "enlightened" by feminism is so obnoxious and condescending to me, as if the average person doesn't understand who they are, what they like, and what they believe because they're too stupid to do so by themselves.
I'm not sure she's even screaming 'oppression'. Indeed the last thing she wants to do is paint women as being overly oppressed. Because that's the victimization which scares the crap out of her she talks about. If she was into all that, she wouldn't put the finger on so many games which make women look oppressed. And she wouldn't protest on her website against an interview in which the (female) interviewer questioned her as if she was a victim (of that very real internet abuse she's gone and is of course still going through).
As a mirror of society, media would have to show this oppression - that's absolutely not what Sarkeesian is after. Video games shouldn't portray women as victims so much, that's the main stance I think. It's not: "Women are oppressed because video games portray them as victims."
I wish every game maker would make video games in which the heroes were always women and minorities, and it was always white men needing rescuing, for one year. A lot of people would get really pissed off. And you know what? GREAT. Because that's how everyone else feels when they see the same tired trope of white men saving everyone else all the time.
i think you misunderstand, i already know that if every game i played was about stupid men being saved by women it would suck and that is why i and many others don't want that, and that is what is frustrating about this whole thing, if there were games like that they probably wouldn't sell all that well to men, you can't please everybody so by appealing to the female market you would reduce sales for the male market and by appealing to men you reduce sales for women it's just that simple, some games are purely aimed at men and there is nothing wrong with that, she should be figuring out ways to make games more appealing to women rather than trashing games made for men.
games may be trying to be more mature but stereotypes and archetypes are just as prevalent for male characters, like marcus phoenix and his bros aren't exactly complex multi layered characters they are just men that kill things and that is as far as it goes(and that is fine for the type of game it is), i would like to play characters like Dr House but i'm not gonna claim that because i don't it is somehow oppressing the intelligence of men.
people can claim men and women are the same all they want but they would be wrong, obviously there are a lot of things men and women have in common, but there are just certain things that are more appealing to men and vice-versa and that won't change
I've given it some thought and I feel that the thing that annoys me about this whole ordeal (and much of modern-day feminism) is the idea that people, especially women, have no agency of their own. The idea that the average woman is being oppressed without realizing it because she hasn't been "enlightened" by feminism is so obnoxious and condescending to me, as if the average person doesn't understand who they are, what they like, and what they believe because they're too stupid to do so by themselves.
I wonder what she thinks about women who cosplay as the characters she feels are offensive?
That is not to say that there isn't any issues at all. There are tons of issues of underrepresentation and general awfulness, which makes it more obnoxious to me that there are people trying to be viewed as victims over situations like rescuing princess peach.
I lost interest in this one when it became rather apparent that this one, more than any of her other videos, is really reaching for targets to hate on. The focus on indie games that are paying homage to the 'captured women' tropes - which she outright says is what they're doing - really isn't a solid base, considering most of these games are simple little titles that don't focus on plot and use the classic 'captured girl' as both an homage and a barebones plot to get the game going.
Also, DLC Quest? Yeah. Any respect for what she had to say went out the window with that one.
I disagree with all of you. She's making a fair point when she says that using the damsel in distress trope as a joke isn't any better than using it seriously, especially when that "joke" has been made dozens of times. If DLC Quest doesn't have anything interesting to say about damsels in distress -- and how does that stereotype even play into the DLC joke -- then why use it? Comedy-ish games using the trope in a barely comedic way just seems to reinforce the idea that a "normal" game would be expected to use the trope in a serious way. If you just need a barebones plot, why not have the bad guy steal some object instead, if that's how the female character is being treated...
She addresses the idea of "ironic sexism" head on, so if you literally stopped the video when she mentioned DLC quest, at least watch the rest of it to see the point she's making about it.
The thing is DLC quest uses everything as a joke...
That is really the point of DLC quest it is satire and the story tries its best to have the most generic story and even literally points out the Princess as 'Motivation'
She is even called 'Princess Macguffin'
Also they say loads of other stuff about the Villain like he murdered your Uncle and peed in your towns water supply
It fits the game and it is the game where the only way to win the game is to buy horse armour...
Pointing that out doesn't make sense...
I think that's the point she was trying to make. Is that a "generic" story involves rescuing a princess. This is such a staple in game stories that it has made it into a satire game. The satire game isn't the problem, it's a symptom of it, exposing that the trend is so ingrained into gaming culture that a story almost isn't worth telling if there's no girl at the end of it.
To be fair I think DLC quest was making the same point as her and was agreeing with her instead of enforcing the stereotype...
Especially with the name Princess Macguffin which literally translates into Princess Plot device...
There's nothing inherently wrong with objectification on an individual level. And why is it bad for games to use cliches when representing female characters? If the games are played mostly by guys, and if guys are pleased by the objectification and the portrayals of the characters, then that's a good thing. These whiners should make and sell their own games, rather than trying to prevent or shame others from making and playing what they like.
Is the idea that games are conditioning guys to, in real life, treat women as objects and associate certain characteristics with the gender? Interesting how you have some people saying violent video games don't condition impressionable players to behave a certain way, and then these same people raise holy hell about a female character being offered as a reward for a male character, since it is supposedly harmful, or something.
Are these same people who are complaining about so-called harmful sexism in video games also against all porn? If not, why not? If video games were conditioning men to treat women as objects in real life, then porn would REALLY be doing that. And there is nothing necessarily wrong with someone enjoying porn, even if that porn objectifies women or men.
These feminist killjoys who are ridiculously going on about supposed sexism (and at other times supposed racism and every other kind of ism) ought to be shunned and rejected. This practice of nitpicking video game characters and looking for ways to be offended by anything not politically correct creates a chilling effect where developers feel pressure to self-censor. No wonder many women want nothing to do with the "feminist" label.
If the games are played mostly by guys, and if guys are pleased by the objectification and the portrayals of the characters, then that's a good thing.
I disagree. It's a good thing for sales, but not for the goal of treating each other with mutual respect.
These whiners should make and sell their own games, rather than trying to prevent or shame others from making and playing what they like.
That's a specious argument. Anyone who doesn't agree with a certain aspect of a game should shut up and make one themselves? Ridiculous.
Is the idea that games are conditioning guys to, in real life, treat women as objects and associate certain characteristics with the gender?
No. The idea is that games are a reflection of the culture, and that the culture is fairly male chauvenist.
Interesting how you have some people saying violent video games don't condition impressionable players to behave a certain way, and then these same people raise holy hell about a female character being offered as a reward for a male character, since it is supposedly harmful, or something.
It's not harmful per se, but Sarkeesian isn't saying that. She's saying that the culture isn't so forward-thinking as it seems to think it is.
These feminist killjoys who are ridiculously going on about supposed sexism (and at other times supposed racism and every other kind of ism) ought to be shunned and rejected. This practice of nitpicking video game characters and looking for ways to be offended by anything not politically correct creates a chilling effect where developers feel pressure to self-censor. No wonder many women want nothing to do with the "feminist" label.
And again, this video is not a far-left-wing rant about how women are better than men. It's a commentary on how there are many video games which in no way encourage women to seek for themselves a place in society beyond being a prize to be won by a man.
Sarkeesian isn't a "femenazi". She's just pointing out that developers of video games, more often than not, tend to fall back on a culturally unhelpful trope. In fact, in one of her other videos, she talks about how, to many people, the word "feminist" has unfortunately come to refer to crazy chauvinist women rather than to people who simply strive toward women being treated equally to men in our culture.
There's nothing inherently wrong with objectification on an individual level. And why is it bad for games to use cliches when representing female characters?
Cliches in themselves aren't bad, but the kinds of cliches that are used over and over again are harmful in terms of how we want the industry to grow. Much in the same way that most of the AAA games released are just space invaders over and over again, we can't get over using women as a material reward rather than treating the woman as a human being. I'd even say that we've receded in the game industry out of laziness/lack of bravery.
If we want to be seen as a serious medium for storytelling, entertainment, ect., the industry needs to grow the fuck up. Even the film industry which often makes lowest common denominator films still makes many AAA movies that don't treat all men like trogdolytes who's attention spans only have room for the boobies and explosions and portrays women like human beings.
The fact that the game industry still sticks to this lowest common denominator to sell games and the fact that so many gamers are so complacent with this fact says a lot about gamers.
Men make up the majority of gamers by 3%. While they are technically the majority the fact of the matter is that women aren't some distant minority who can be ignored when they speak out about being underrepresented.
Even then, the fact that you'd be so complacent in the lack of diversity in games and their portrayal of women- no, ANY perspective other than attractive traditionally masculine young adult male is the reason why everyone thinks gamers are immature manchildren.
Between this and several other things going on, that sentiment seems more more justified every single day.
Fuck.
I'm not even a fan of this Tropes vs Women shindig.
There's nothing inherently wrong with objectification on an individual level. And why is it bad for games to use cliches when representing female characters? If the games are played mostly by guys, and if guys are pleased by the objectification and the portrayals of the characters, then that's a good thing. These whiners should make and sell their own games, rather than trying to prevent or shame others from making and playing what they like.
Is the idea that games are conditioning guys to, in real life, treat women as objects and associate certain characteristics with the gender? Interesting how you have some people saying violent video games don't condition impressionable players to behave a certain way, and then these same people raise holy hell about a female character being offered as a reward for a male character, since it is supposedly harmful, or something.
Are these same people who are complaining about so-called harmful sexism in video games also against all porn? If not, why not? If video games were conditioning men to treat women as objects in real life, then porn would REALLY be doing that. And there is nothing necessarily wrong with someone enjoying porn, even if that porn objectifies women or men.
These feminist killjoys who are ridiculously going on about supposed sexism (and at other times supposed racism and every other kind of ism) ought to be shunned and rejected. This practice of nitpicking video game characters and looking for ways to be offended by anything not politically correct creates a chilling effect where developers feel pressure to self-censor. No wonder many women want nothing to do with the "feminist" label.
Everyone else has already given you really rational replies that fully explain why you're wrong, so I don't feel obligated to do more than post this:
Too bad I didn't fucking keep my user title, cause I'm the fucking Killjoy Extraordinaire. You, buddy, have done something wicked hard to do. You've pissed me off. Royally. I would go into some detail, but if you were here right now, you might be on the way to the hospital with a broken nose, because that's how fuckin' pissed I am.
Seriously, it's like you don't even notice the women who have been raped and then blamed for the actions of men. It's like you don't even know that every woman alive either has had a man attempt to rape them or knows a close relative who has (I know two, and I live in a relatively nice, upper-middle class area). It's like you didn't hear about the woman who was fired without recommendations or pay for being "too pretty". It's like you haven't heard about the woman who was murdered in Texas by her husband and then the husband got off free as a bird because "she was a bitch". It's like you haven't read this article, where a woman was banned from an MMO for complaining about the harassment she suffered in game, had her personal information revealed to the public by the company, and then had the commentators on the article defend the gamers.
And you know what? It's because of people like you. People who defend this behavior, who turn a blind eye to the suffering that so many women undergo on a regular basis. And you know what? It happens to women as well. People ignore a woman's plight (including other women) and sooner or later, she starts not noticing it either. It starts not occurring to her that she doesn't need to put up with some of the shit she puts up with. AND THAT IS WRONG.
I don't care why you have this opinion. I don't care what experiences you've had with women. But I'll tell you that you are wrong about everything you said above. And I don't care that I'm not saying it nicely, because people have been saying it nicely this entire thread and obviously that hasn't sunk in, so I'm going to tell you straight. Until you start thinking of women as people, you will never understand why promoting an unhealthy cultural objectification in games is wrong.
(Also, considering porn, at least they make porn for women that objectifies men, so it's equal.)
EDIT: I just remembered something else I wanted to say. I sincerely hope that you will never reproduce and represent an evolutionary dead end so that your thinking won't pollute future generations.
I remember my Mom telling me about how, because of her abusive first husband and stepfather, until she met my Dad, she thought being abused, raped, and beat on was normal. And she gave him shit at first for not being like that.
There's a pretty good example of women being conditioned to take it.
But let's look at it from another point of view. Let's look at the concept that games can not possibly promote sexist behavior. Just like the idea that video games can not promote violent thinking in people. Well, that basically implies that video games have no means to affect someone on a deep, intrinsic, or emotional level. I don't believe that's true. So as much as it's used to spin arguments I don't like for political agendas I hate, I have to consider the possibility that a video game can promote violent behavior. And I definitely have to consider that they can promote sexist behavior. But the TRUEST statement, is that video games really just bring out the traits in people that are already THERE.
Video games, therefore, should not be enabling such thoughts and behaviors. They, and the rest of society as a whole, should SHAME such thoughts and behaviors, until the people that hold them and refuse to change hide under rocks and curse the sun. And those that hold them and are pliable let themselves embrace healthier, better, more moral ideals.
Also, you really thought a good argument for the objectification of women was PORN?
As I grow older it amazes me how so many women have been sexually abused. Virtually every woman in my family except for some of my generation has dealt with abuse of this nature. All my aunts (and neighborhood girls of the time) were molested by the same man and everyone knew it, but no one wanted to make a scene about it and disrupt the community. I haven't talked to one woman at work who didn't experience abuse. This isn't just some minor thing women are unjustly afraid of.
To say that women are being whiny for complaining about the portrayal as sex objects in media and that we should just be complacent is so outrageous. This has been beaten to death, but gosh it still makes me grumpy.
I disagree with many of Anita's methodologies, but at least she's doing something.
Oh look, a woman doesn't agree with Sarkeesian! I guess that means she's completely wrong and everything's totally fine in the world. Nothing needs to change, we can just sit back and laugh at those silly feminazis plotting to create a women-only society with all the gay agenda people (but only the lesbians).
We can just sit back and laugh at those silly feminazis plotting to create a women-only society with all the gay agenda people (but only the lesbians).
I'm glad we agree on that. I wouldn't have but part 3 of the series really rubbed me the wrong way.
Using Eversion and DLC Quest as bad examples just means she doesn't understand what she's talking about.
How was there a story in Eversion? How was there a gender to the hero of the game or even to the "princess" in the game. What does the true ending change in this game....
She had quite a few good points but using a Satirical game all about Judging the games industry which only uses a Damsel in distress to make similar points to their cause in general...
It is like complaining about her video because it has 'Damsels in distress in it' even though she obviously has the Damsels in to talk about how we don't need Damsels...
Dlc Quest does the same...
Comments
Full circle.
she never offers solutions and just picks and chooses parts of games without any context while putting them into her own "games are sexist" contexts, this may be boring writing but it isn't female disempowerment, what other kind of story can you have that makes the player understand that the character they are playing is so determined to achieve their goal that they are willing to risk their life to achieve it? save the world or save a loved one are just good motivators not an insidious way of disempowering women.
if the main character was female the same thing would happen but with men being "disempowered" and "brutalised" just because these are story tropes not sexist tropes and OMG calling killing a demon that happened to be a women "domestic violence" is f*cking ridiculous and god damn insulting, she is adding her own underlying message and she has a serious chip on her shoulder about it
Just imagine it: Clemens instead of Clementine.
Yes there are a ton of stereotypes regarding gender rolls in games but mostly there are male heroes because the majority of players is still male.
And well we need a motivation. So they make it personal. A lover is the easiest way to achieve that and I don't think you will ever save your gay lover in a lot of video games.
They might just kill your dog though (e.g. in Fable 2).
Let's rephrase that: She's a feminist and all of them are foll of it. Just like men who think they are better people because they have a penis. A shark beats them easily in that regard.
53%. Well, yeah, technically, that's a majority.
But where are the female game designers? At Telltale? Eh?
While this sort of discussion might have had its place after the first video, I believe the second video does put the discussion on another level. The examples in there are an exploitation, proven in the pervasiveness of those motifs and the absurd recurrence of their most 'perfected' variants (for example, as identified by Sarkeesian: the "Wife gets killed, save your daughter", the "Mercy kill" and the "lover is killed, now save her soul as well").
You know me, I love a good damsel in distress when I can save one.
Is there a need to identify these tropes, collect examples and almost scientifically classify the approaches from the 80s to today?
Fuck, yeah.
EDIT: According to the plot synopsis on Wikipedia, it's a mid-game spoiler.
The female narrative has historically and is still currently underrepresented. The black hero is underrepresented. The Mexican hero is underrepresented. The Asian hero is underrepresented. If you're a white man, guess what, jackpot, EVERY GAME IS ABOUT A VERSION OF YOU. You've got stupid guys, smart guys, scientists, con artists, soldiers, detectives, the list goes on.
And you can't see that that's an issue? That women don't always want to be portrayed as needing rescuing?
"if only feminists could be a man their whole life, then they would realise that any male privilege there may be is equally countered by female privilege, i just think most feminists have a "the grass is greener on the other side" mentality believing that men live on this perfect man world where all you have to do is be a man and you get everything you want. "
I don't even know how to respond to this. White men in America have a better chance of getting hired into particular fields, they will earn more in their lifetimes at the exact same jobs as women, have an infinite number of portrayals throughout the media. Women don't think you live in a perfect world, that's not the issue, the issue is you're so used to your position of privilege that it's the status quo, instead of seeing how everyone else has to play catch up even when things are theoretically 'even'. Women have to be told what to do with their bodies, why they can't get equal medical coverage, be slammed in the media whenever they assert themselves.
"the thing that annoys me about her approach it that she totally ignores why it is usually females in distress to be saved and that is simply because the main character is male"
THIS IS A HUGE DEAL. This is the standard. This is the status quo. This is the default. Despite the fact that women are half our population and minorities make up half the nation, white men are still always the standard hero template. The stories always go to this. THAT IS A PROBLEM. THAT IS A HUGE PROBLEM. Women do not need to be portrayed as damsels in distress. I'm not saying you can't do it once in a while, but right now it's time to start thinking up new narratives.
I wish every game maker would make video games in which the heroes were always women and minorities, and it was always white men needing rescuing, for one year. A lot of people would get really pissed off. And you know what? GREAT. Because that's how everyone else feels when they see the same tired trope of white men saving everyone else all the time.
this is a biggers spoiler "you can use a brick as a weapon" seriously if you think the spoiler in the video was bad you will hate that spoiler i just gave because the "spoiler" in the video was a very small part of the story
Also, I'm with DAISHI on this one. She is, in the broad strokes, RIGHT. Game stories are playing at being mature and yet they constantly work on the level of glorifying and empowering white male protagonists. They're trying to reach a wider base and yet refuse to break out of this box, instead making the problem WORSE by aping at maturity through making the female disempowerment as a function of a male story MORE BRUTAL.
I wonder what she thinks about women who cosplay as the characters she feels are offensive?
That is not to say that there isn't any issues at all. There are tons of issues of underrepresentation and general awfulness, which makes it more obnoxious to me that there are people trying to be viewed as victims over situations like rescuing princess peach.
Then again, I'm of the opinion that a lot of the reason that there isn't equality yet is because women aren't angry enough. Maybe they should feel insulted by the feminist, just so that they start thinking about the fact that things aren't equal and get mad about it.
I'm not sure she's even screaming 'oppression'. Indeed the last thing she wants to do is paint women as being overly oppressed. Because that's the victimization which scares the crap out of her she talks about. If she was into all that, she wouldn't put the finger on so many games which make women look oppressed. And she wouldn't protest on her website against an interview in which the (female) interviewer questioned her as if she was a victim (of that very real internet abuse she's gone and is of course still going through).
As a mirror of society, media would have to show this oppression - that's absolutely not what Sarkeesian is after. Video games shouldn't portray women as victims so much, that's the main stance I think. It's not: "Women are oppressed because video games portray them as victims."
i think you misunderstand, i already know that if every game i played was about stupid men being saved by women it would suck and that is why i and many others don't want that, and that is what is frustrating about this whole thing, if there were games like that they probably wouldn't sell all that well to men, you can't please everybody so by appealing to the female market you would reduce sales for the male market and by appealing to men you reduce sales for women it's just that simple, some games are purely aimed at men and there is nothing wrong with that, she should be figuring out ways to make games more appealing to women rather than trashing games made for men.
games may be trying to be more mature but stereotypes and archetypes are just as prevalent for male characters, like marcus phoenix and his bros aren't exactly complex multi layered characters they are just men that kill things and that is as far as it goes(and that is fine for the type of game it is), i would like to play characters like Dr House but i'm not gonna claim that because i don't it is somehow oppressing the intelligence of men.
people can claim men and women are the same all they want but they would be wrong, obviously there are a lot of things men and women have in common, but there are just certain things that are more appealing to men and vice-versa and that won't change
Let the discussion continue.
Complaining about that is ridiculous...
I lost interest in this one when it became rather apparent that this one, more than any of her other videos, is really reaching for targets to hate on. The focus on indie games that are paying homage to the 'captured women' tropes - which she outright says is what they're doing - really isn't a solid base, considering most of these games are simple little titles that don't focus on plot and use the classic 'captured girl' as both an homage and a barebones plot to get the game going.
Also, DLC Quest? Yeah. Any respect for what she had to say went out the window with that one.
She addresses the idea of "ironic sexism" head on, so if you literally stopped the video when she mentioned DLC quest, at least watch the rest of it to see the point she's making about it.
That is really the point of DLC quest it is satire and the story tries its best to have the most generic story and even literally points out the Princess as 'Motivation'
She is even called 'Princess Macguffin'
Also they say loads of other stuff about the Villain like he murdered your Uncle and peed in your towns water supply
It fits the game and it is the game where the only way to win the game is to buy horse armour...
Pointing that out doesn't make sense...
Especially with the name Princess Macguffin which literally translates into Princess Plot device...
EDIT: Done watching it. Her argument is really well thought-out and convincing. She does a really good job.
...still a stupid shirt though with that cyan background.
Is the idea that games are conditioning guys to, in real life, treat women as objects and associate certain characteristics with the gender? Interesting how you have some people saying violent video games don't condition impressionable players to behave a certain way, and then these same people raise holy hell about a female character being offered as a reward for a male character, since it is supposedly harmful, or something.
Are these same people who are complaining about so-called harmful sexism in video games also against all porn? If not, why not? If video games were conditioning men to treat women as objects in real life, then porn would REALLY be doing that. And there is nothing necessarily wrong with someone enjoying porn, even if that porn objectifies women or men.
These feminist killjoys who are ridiculously going on about supposed sexism (and at other times supposed racism and every other kind of ism) ought to be shunned and rejected. This practice of nitpicking video game characters and looking for ways to be offended by anything not politically correct creates a chilling effect where developers feel pressure to self-censor. No wonder many women want nothing to do with the "feminist" label.
That's a specious argument. Anyone who doesn't agree with a certain aspect of a game should shut up and make one themselves? Ridiculous.
No. The idea is that games are a reflection of the culture, and that the culture is fairly male chauvenist.
It's not harmful per se, but Sarkeesian isn't saying that. She's saying that the culture isn't so forward-thinking as it seems to think it is.
And again, this video is not a far-left-wing rant about how women are better than men. It's a commentary on how there are many video games which in no way encourage women to seek for themselves a place in society beyond being a prize to be won by a man.
Sarkeesian isn't a "femenazi". She's just pointing out that developers of video games, more often than not, tend to fall back on a culturally unhelpful trope. In fact, in one of her other videos, she talks about how, to many people, the word "feminist" has unfortunately come to refer to crazy chauvinist women rather than to people who simply strive toward women being treated equally to men in our culture.
Cliches in themselves aren't bad, but the kinds of cliches that are used over and over again are harmful in terms of how we want the industry to grow. Much in the same way that most of the AAA games released are just space invaders over and over again, we can't get over using women as a material reward rather than treating the woman as a human being. I'd even say that we've receded in the game industry out of laziness/lack of bravery.
If we want to be seen as a serious medium for storytelling, entertainment, ect., the industry needs to grow the fuck up. Even the film industry which often makes lowest common denominator films still makes many AAA movies that don't treat all men like trogdolytes who's attention spans only have room for the boobies and explosions and portrays women like human beings.
The fact that the game industry still sticks to this lowest common denominator to sell games and the fact that so many gamers are so complacent with this fact says a lot about gamers.
Men make up the majority of gamers by 3%. While they are technically the majority the fact of the matter is that women aren't some distant minority who can be ignored when they speak out about being underrepresented.
Even then, the fact that you'd be so complacent in the lack of diversity in games and their portrayal of women- no, ANY perspective other than attractive traditionally masculine young adult male is the reason why everyone thinks gamers are immature manchildren.
Between this and several other things going on, that sentiment seems more more justified every single day.
Fuck.
I'm not even a fan of this Tropes vs Women shindig.
Everyone else has already given you really rational replies that fully explain why you're wrong, so I don't feel obligated to do more than post this:
Too bad I didn't fucking keep my user title, cause I'm the fucking Killjoy Extraordinaire. You, buddy, have done something wicked hard to do. You've pissed me off. Royally. I would go into some detail, but if you were here right now, you might be on the way to the hospital with a broken nose, because that's how fuckin' pissed I am.
Seriously, it's like you don't even notice the women who have been raped and then blamed for the actions of men. It's like you don't even know that every woman alive either has had a man attempt to rape them or knows a close relative who has (I know two, and I live in a relatively nice, upper-middle class area). It's like you didn't hear about the woman who was fired without recommendations or pay for being "too pretty". It's like you haven't heard about the woman who was murdered in Texas by her husband and then the husband got off free as a bird because "she was a bitch". It's like you haven't read this article, where a woman was banned from an MMO for complaining about the harassment she suffered in game, had her personal information revealed to the public by the company, and then had the commentators on the article defend the gamers.
And you know what? It's because of people like you. People who defend this behavior, who turn a blind eye to the suffering that so many women undergo on a regular basis. And you know what? It happens to women as well. People ignore a woman's plight (including other women) and sooner or later, she starts not noticing it either. It starts not occurring to her that she doesn't need to put up with some of the shit she puts up with. AND THAT IS WRONG.
I don't care why you have this opinion. I don't care what experiences you've had with women. But I'll tell you that you are wrong about everything you said above. And I don't care that I'm not saying it nicely, because people have been saying it nicely this entire thread and obviously that hasn't sunk in, so I'm going to tell you straight. Until you start thinking of women as people, you will never understand why promoting an unhealthy cultural objectification in games is wrong.
(Also, considering porn, at least they make porn for women that objectifies men, so it's equal.)
EDIT: I just remembered something else I wanted to say. I sincerely hope that you will never reproduce and represent an evolutionary dead end so that your thinking won't pollute future generations.
There's a pretty good example of women being conditioned to take it.
But let's look at it from another point of view. Let's look at the concept that games can not possibly promote sexist behavior. Just like the idea that video games can not promote violent thinking in people. Well, that basically implies that video games have no means to affect someone on a deep, intrinsic, or emotional level. I don't believe that's true. So as much as it's used to spin arguments I don't like for political agendas I hate, I have to consider the possibility that a video game can promote violent behavior. And I definitely have to consider that they can promote sexist behavior. But the TRUEST statement, is that video games really just bring out the traits in people that are already THERE.
Video games, therefore, should not be enabling such thoughts and behaviors. They, and the rest of society as a whole, should SHAME such thoughts and behaviors, until the people that hold them and refuse to change hide under rocks and curse the sun. And those that hold them and are pliable let themselves embrace healthier, better, more moral ideals.
Also, you really thought a good argument for the objectification of women was PORN?
To say that women are being whiny for complaining about the portrayal as sex objects in media and that we should just be complacent is so outrageous. This has been beaten to death, but gosh it still makes me grumpy.
I disagree with many of Anita's methodologies, but at least she's doing something.
Do you see something maybe a little ironic in you judging her for her appearance in these videos?
I'm glad we agree on that. I wouldn't have but part 3 of the series really rubbed me the wrong way.
Using Eversion and DLC Quest as bad examples just means she doesn't understand what she's talking about.
How was there a story in Eversion? How was there a gender to the hero of the game or even to the "princess" in the game. What does the true ending change in this game....
It is like complaining about her video because it has 'Damsels in distress in it' even though she obviously has the Damsels in to talk about how we don't need Damsels...
Dlc Quest does the same...