I like the argument with heaven and hell. It implies that every rational thinking being would choose to do good, just to reach heaven. Moreover, it would neutralize the will to do evil, if rationalization 'takes place'. But free will implies it, which would lead to a little contradiction. It gives me a lot to think about.
I like the idea that if we think of Adam and Eve, you’re right they simply miss the temptation to do evil. They can't even tell the difference. But I have to read Kierkegaard first
I hope I got things right so far
I like to comment on the natural disasters. I think they can be explained if we think of free will, like a choice of a 'personal/local' maximum. Although nature has not a mind, it 'behaves' within a certain ‘framework/mindset’, the laws of physics. Given a certain set of parameters, one or rather multiple local maxima are possible, hence ‘choice’ exists, e.g. 30% probability of rain. Although this isn’t really ‘will’, since the consciousness is missing, there is some sort of choice. Not active, rather as a chain of events. Started by the even smallest of butterflies And since nature is part of the creation, it’s ‘decision’ is respected, too.
I've never bought the 'free will' argument to explain evil, for a number of reasons. The first is it sounds like rationalization. But even b… moreeyond that, it still doesn't explain the existence of evil, or what are sometimes called 'acts of God' (natural disasters). To say that we have the choice to do evil presupposes the existence of a choice to do evil and the drive to do so. This is what I was getting at when I mentioned the German film - God placed the fruit in the Garden of Eden and in doing so created the potential for evil. Moreover, the snake's tempting of Eve implies that Eve would have an inclination to respond to such a temptation - where did that come from? (For more, see Kierkegaard's The Concept of Anxiety)
Moreover, if there is a God, and more specifically if there is a Heaven and Hell, then there is no true freedom of choice. Christopher Hitchens compares a world with God to North Korea, which is perhaps a bit much, but there… [view original content]
When you say: They go to hell! you are implying that they were "sent" by "someone" to this "place" because of reprehensible acts.
In my personal opnion that's a wrong way to understand it. God doesn't send anyone to heaven or to hell. it is a spiritual merits of each. if you're in hell this is your fault, your imperfection condemned you to this situation. your addictions holds you and prevent you from opening your wings and fly away. Do not blame God for your mistakes, blame yourself.
This hell is not absolute or eternal. get rid of it only depends on your will.
I've never bought the 'free will' argument to explain evil, for a number of reasons. The first is it sounds like rationalization. But even b… moreeyond that, it still doesn't explain the existence of evil, or what are sometimes called 'acts of God' (natural disasters). To say that we have the choice to do evil presupposes the existence of a choice to do evil and the drive to do so. This is what I was getting at when I mentioned the German film - God placed the fruit in the Garden of Eden and in doing so created the potential for evil. Moreover, the snake's tempting of Eve implies that Eve would have an inclination to respond to such a temptation - where did that come from? (For more, see Kierkegaard's The Concept of Anxiety)
Moreover, if there is a God, and more specifically if there is a Heaven and Hell, then there is no true freedom of choice. Christopher Hitchens compares a world with God to North Korea, which is perhaps a bit much, but there… [view original content]
Yes, I believe in God. I believe that only He knows the cause of "whatever this is", and only He can fix it.
Edit: You ASKED for my opinion... sorry if it wasn't the right one... jerks. >:(
Some theme I've noticed in this forum is the argument of Science vs. Religion.
As a Christian who has accepted Jesus Christ into my heart, I don't really consider myself anything else other than a Christian, meaning that I have accepted Jesus Christ into my heart. (Not trying to be preachy, just clarifying.)
And my favorite subject to learn about right now, is Astronomy. The study of the stars and everything out there beyond Earth, beyond our solar system, beyond everything we know. And I won't lie, the thought of a Supreme Being at the reigns of it all does sometimes seem a bit strange in the midst of everything. I won't lie, my faith has faltered at times in my life when I thought about the vastness of the Universe and Existence. I'm not perfect, no one is, but thinking that there is a God who understands that, and stills loves us and wants to know us, is comforting.
However, if one thinks that this idea is silly, I do understand, really I do. But after taking Astronomy for a year, and talking to my professors and peers in my life who are scientists, and asking them about their opinions on God and a Supreme Being, I've made up my mind, and I've come to realize that Science and Religion don't have to be bitter opposites. I choose to believe in them both as best I can.
As for this situation, in the event of a Zombie Apocalypse, you betcha I'd be pretty upset, wondering why this all happened. But at the end of the day, if it's just me in the world all alone. I'd much rather believe that their is a God, and a place called heaven out there, and then die and find out there is nothing. I want to believe there is someone who loves me, no matter what.
I've been reading a lot of comments on here, they're all good points coming from both sides of the spectrum. Everyone makes good points, in the end, it's simply your own choice what you believe. Okay, my speech is over.
Your point of view is interesting, and like you. I also do not believe that Heaven or Hell are " places " where the individual remains for eternity. this is a poor and worthless concept to me . Paradise and Hell are purely an equilibrium state of each person in my humble opinion.
Why I say that the lack of an afterlife is nonsense. because a " finite " life completely negates any concept of justice and makes explicit the idea that being good or bad makes no difference because in the end the equation will always be zero!
Whether you were Jesus Christ or Adolf Hitler. you would never be judged by what you committed.
That's why I believe in the Law of Karma , because it justifies and adds moral value to goodness and badness. A rapist who has consciousness of Universal Justice , will think twice before doing so. because he will be tried for acts committed. however, this same rapist knowing that there will be no trial for any of his actions, will not hesitate to satisfy his worldly vices.
It is like a thief that will keep stealing forever, knowing that the system will never arrest him for his crimes.
The idea of an afterlife, is not only a matter of moral justice. is also a hope for the future. Leave a legacy for others, such as Lee did with Clem. is something honorable of course. but what about the personal merits? they do not count? I want to continue to exist after this life, I do not see myself being completely destroyed by natural law, to me nothing is created and nothing is lost. everything is transformed.
I feel almost exactly the opposite of how you feel about a lack of an afterlife. I feel as though the finite nature of our lives increases t… morehe meaningfulness/value of them. You have a brief period of existence, and it's up to you to make the most out of it. If you live out your entire life and love it, why do you need to reflect on that brief period of enjoyment for eternity, or, if heaven is truly eternal paradise and things other than reflection will happen there, why do you need to live a brief existence on Earth to determine if you get there or not? Why do you need a brief Earthly existence at all in that case? Why not skip the middle man and start at eternity? Surely the rest of eternity > one Earthly lifetime? Plus, if you do a lot of good deeds that better the lives of others, why do you need to be rewarded further? I think about this much like scarcity. Things such as gold have such high values because of their finite nature. If go… [view original content]
I'm an atheist, and I don't think that would change in the case of the ZA. Firstly, I think I'd have bigger concerns on my hands than theological pondering, but further, I don't see zombies as some insane thing that could only be explained by, and increase the plausibility of, the existence of an all-powerful being. Viruses, as we all assume zombies would come from one, are explainable in scientific and medical terms, and although the chaotic, horrific flesh-eating, and 'thought to be possible only in fiction' nature of zombies would definitely make a ZA harder to process than say, a tsunami, they're still both fundamentally the same thing: scary ass shit that nature reminds us it can produce all the time. My faith if I were stuck in either situation would be placed where it is now, on Earth and in people vastly more equipped to deal with it than me: governments, scientists, armies, etc.
Besides, if people that didn't believe before started doing so when the zombies rise up, it wouldn't even be real belief or acceptance of religious doctrine, it'd just be their way of coping with the threat of imminent death and making themselves feel better about it by imagining there's a grand reason for it or that someone is up there looking out for them and will keep them alive, imo.
Hope this wasn't too offensive, hard to tell sometimes with sensitive topics like these...
Yeah man! I fully agree. society is very hypocritical in that sense! it pisses me off.
The kitten, the puppy, the little mouse. are animals just like the pig and kitty and chicken. why the pig may die and turn bacon and the dog can not? bunch of hypocrites..
About the fact that Jesus ate fish, there are no precise information about it. but according to the Spiritist doctrine, if he ate meat, it would be added to his Karma. but hey, the man was in a sacrificial mission. eat a fish in his last supper is a mere detail ..
Yeah, well he ate the fish. So... yano... don't make rules if you can't follow them and I ain't a vegetarian. I'm planning on becoming one b… moreut It's pretty fucking hard. Even if that wasn't a rule I would still be pissed. How would you like to be sawn into fucking two? Oh, but the cute animals stay alive because the kiddies wanna see em', ey?
I have no trouble at all thinking that one day my entire existence will be not only over with, but also forgotten. For me that's just always… more been a fact of life. I see no reason to dwell on it as a negative thing, rather I prefer to enjoy the time I have and do my best to leave the planet a better place for up-and-coming generations than I found it. In my opinion that's more fulfilling than doing the same in hopes of being rewarded.
Either way your existence on Earth is only remembered by those you knew and by the deeds you did. As I said, this doesn't bother me, nor has it ever.
Edit: The briefness of life and its experiences only makes it sweeter, because I was given the opportunity to experience it, and I had the chance to be apart of other people's as well. When my time has come I hope I'll have no regrets, but even if I do I wouldn't want to live on for the rest of eternity being judged for mistakes I may or may not have made whils… [view original content]
OK, I think I understand now. And I must say, It's cool to see someone with a great attitude like yours. There are some much buttholes (athe… moreists and religious people) saying that there opinion is the best and everyone must believe it; so it's cool to see some open minded people. Keep your philosophy up man We need more people like you on this planet.
Some theme I've noticed in this forum is the argument of Science vs. Religion.
As a Christian who has accepted Jesus Christ into my heart… more, I don't really consider myself anything else other than a Christian, meaning that I have accepted Jesus Christ into my heart. (Not trying to be preachy, just clarifying.)
And my favorite subject to learn about right now, is Astronomy. The study of the stars and everything out there beyond Earth, beyond our solar system, beyond everything we know. And I won't lie, the thought of a Supreme Being at the reigns of it all does sometimes seem a bit strange in the midst of everything. I won't lie, my faith has faltered at times in my life when I thought about the vastness of the Universe and Existence. I'm not perfect, no one is, but thinking that there is a God who understands that, and stills loves us and wants to know us, is comforting.
However, if one thinks that this idea is silly, I do understand, … [view original content]
Firstly, this would be more than just another disaster. It would be a massive and catastrophic extintion event, possibly the worst in histor… morey (for land animals, at least). Secondly, it wouldn't be crazy for a Christian to question an all-loving God if something this terrible would happen. None of the genocides, natural disasters and plagues in our history had as high a death toll as the ZA depicted in fiction or brought us particularly close to extinction since the last Ice Age.
As for atheist or agnostics (like me), the fact that zombies are so hard, if not impossible, to justify from a scientific point of view could also fuck up with their heads a little bit. Still, I think most atheists and agnostics would just assume that just 'cause we don't know how zombies work doesn't mean God is punishing us for Miley Cyrus. They'd just quote that guy who said magic is only the science we don't understand (or it was something like this).
I personally don't think there needs to be a system of supernatural judgement for humans after their death. History remembers people for who they were, and I believe it ends there. Each person's judgement is in the perception they leave with their fellow human beings. The simple fact that you placed Hitler in your post as a comparison of good vs evil shows that. As for a system of universal justice I have to disagree, I don't think there is any system of judgement after death beyond that of the surviving human beings. As for moral justice, morality and justice are both man made creation, and so judgement based on them once again is left to humans. If a mass extinction occurred tomorrow and all human beings died, the very ideas of morality and justice would die with us because there would be no humans left to uphold those views.
A finite life doesn't negate the concept of justice, nor does it mean that being bad or good makes no difference. A good person will have a positive affect on the world, whereas a bad person will have a negative one. Humanity itself is left to decide what justice befits a person's actions while they are alive, which is why there is a justice system. Justice systems may not be perfect, but that's because they as well as the idea of justice are once again man made creations. Everything a person does has an affect on this world.
As for personal merits, in the grand scheme of things I don't think they count for anything at all, no. All they count for is the perception others have of you. Life isn't fair, it just simply is. You are absolutely right about only being transformed though. Your consciousness may cease to be when your body dies and the electrical impulses in your brain cease, but your body will decay into the soil and continue the circle of life.
Your point of view is interesting, and like you. I also do not believe that Heaven or Hell are " places " where the individual remains for e… moreternity. this is a poor and worthless concept to me . Paradise and Hell are purely an equilibrium state of each person in my humble opinion.
Why I say that the lack of an afterlife is nonsense. because a " finite " life completely negates any concept of justice and makes explicit the idea that being good or bad makes no difference because in the end the equation will always be zero!
Whether you were Jesus Christ or Adolf Hitler. you would never be judged by what you committed.
That's why I believe in the Law of Karma , because it justifies and adds moral value to goodness and badness. A rapist who has consciousness of Universal Justice , will think twice before doing so. because he will be tried for acts committed. however, this same rapist knowing that there will be no trial for any of his actions… [view original content]
Than why be a "religious" person and not just an honorable and moral one? Being religious implies you are following a religion, but to practice charity, mercy, and good character does not require one, as you already stated, so why attach the connotation?
Being religious is to practice charity and mercy. is trying to be a person of good character. this is independent of any religion.
have a… more religion does not mean you are actually practicing what you studies. for many people, religion is just a facade ..
God cannot directly stop all evil because that would be breaking his promise to us of free will. A lot of evil on Earth comes from our own decisions. Of course, you can pray to Him and the Saints for intervention but he's really not the one to blame when a store is broken into and whatnot.
The size of a catastrophe does not matter. Whether apocalyptic or a hurricane, the fact remains that God can not be both all powerful and al… morel good. I still don't think you can get around Epicurius:
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
Another example is this German movie I was watching, where this serial killer goes on about how God knows everything, and in putting the fruit in the Garden of Eden he know how everything would turn out.
Of course, God being malevolent and not existing are two completely different things. If a god were to exist, there is nothing that requires that it be a good one. What is more interesting, to me at least, is the question of God and free will.
I'm not implying anything. if this was implicit in the question somehow, I apologize. My goal here is just that people discuss on the subject, and there is a healthy debate among us! ^^
I enjoyed your words about the fact of morality and belief are unrelated. this is true.
" I don't believe in God because of a lack of supporting evidence."
Do you really believe that you can find "physical" evidence of God's existence? I think this would be a complete waste of time. Since God, in my opinion is not something "material" or something belonging to this reality. and therefore, tangible evidence of it are impossible.
I think if you want to find God, you need to start looking within yourself.
How do you morally understand an event of this magnitude?
Morals and belief don't have much relation to each other, actually. You can be … moreatheistic and be a compassionate sweetheart, or be Christian and a serial killer. I don't understand why you'd ask this specifically because I'm an atheist, unless you're implying that atheists lack a sturdy moral foundation?
Anyways, bad things happen. Volcanic eruptions, storms, plagues, you name it. This would just be another disaster; no particular reason for it happening other than, well, it happens. Personally, I'd be willing to get my hands a little dirty if the survival of the people I cared about counted on it.
This catastrophic event would make you rethink about believe in God?
I don't think so. Judging by how routine things become for the survivors after a while, I think I'd just stick with my current views.
This catastrophic event would only serve to reinforce the idea that there i… [view original content]
Hasty answers
All right guys let's CLASH some morals here! (with RESPECT please)
Are you a religious person? Do you believe in God? N… moreO I am not religious
If YES: * How your belief would affect you in a zombie apocalypse? * this would be a predestined event of mankind? * it would mean the day of judgment, the final test of each human-being as a person? * This catastrophic event would make you stop believing in God?
if NO: * How do you morally understand an event of this magnitude? * This catastrophic event would make you rethink about believe in God? * This catastrophic event would only serve to reinforce the idea that there is nothing beyond us?
* this, even no matter the magnitude of it is amoral, there is no moral to the zombie apocalypse, the dead does not rise again because to many kids have pre-marital sex or masturbate. Even in such a catastrophe I would not rethink the way I see God, the Devil and all the angels, to m… [view original content]
How do you morally understand an event of this magnitude?
Morals and belief don't have much relation to each other, actually. You can be … moreatheistic and be a compassionate sweetheart, or be Christian and a serial killer. I don't understand why you'd ask this specifically because I'm an atheist, unless you're implying that atheists lack a sturdy moral foundation?
Anyways, bad things happen. Volcanic eruptions, storms, plagues, you name it. This would just be another disaster; no particular reason for it happening other than, well, it happens. Personally, I'd be willing to get my hands a little dirty if the survival of the people I cared about counted on it.
This catastrophic event would make you rethink about believe in God?
I don't think so. Judging by how routine things become for the survivors after a while, I think I'd just stick with my current views.
This catastrophic event would only serve to reinforce the idea that there i… [view original content]
I personally don't think there needs to be a system of supernatural judgement for humans after their death. History remembers people for who… more they were, and I believe it ends there. Each person's judgement is in the perception they leave with their fellow human beings. The simple fact that you placed Hitler in your post as a comparison of good vs evil shows that. As for a system of universal justice I have to disagree, I don't think there is any system of judgement after death beyond that of the surviving human beings. As for moral justice, morality and justice are both man made creation, and so judgement based on them once again is left to humans. If a mass extinction occurred tomorrow and all human beings died, the very ideas of morality and justice would die with us because there would be no humans left to uphold those views.
A finite life doesn't negate the concept of justice, nor does it mean that being bad or good makes no difference.… [view original content]
Well. seems like we got to the point of our debate in which there are no longer counter-arguments. we both defined our opinions about what w… moree think.
You are resigned to this life and it's concepts. and is happy with things as they are.
I on the other hand, am a guy who is not content just with the "labels" and try to make sense of what exists beyond the packaging.
But I must thank you Eddie_Maiden for this intelligent conversation! it was very interesting and I'm glad for it!
Adapting would be a necessity for survival. But im not sure having a new outlook on humanity would mean losing a part of it. It could go bad and good but i would like to say that i would never lose my solidarity with my fellow humanbeings.
Hey guys! I am very thankful for all of you are so professionally debating the issues of this topic. this is the third time I post here. and it seems that this thread was very successful. I apologize for not replying to you all. is that I get home late from work. and all opinions here are very well constructed and intelligent. it takes time to answer questions of this level. ^^
But I promise I will do my best to try and talk with everyone.
Very nice comment and I doubt you'll get dislikes, since the majority of people truly believe in god while at the same time doubting his existence.
I'd like to warn, that my comment might sound like a Darwin's witness knocking on your door and with every cell in my body I'm trying not to sound intolerant.
Usually, you turn to god when you spiritually need him and since we're all the same sinful and scared little beings in our huge universe, we all need to believe in something, either it's a man with a nice beard and a loving face or just something Divine we can't see, or even ourselves.
When you dive in into science even more, you can't ignore the fact that the theory of creationism sounds too fantastical compared to evolution. You've just seen the Astronomical side, which showed you the little inaccuracies in the Bible. What I'd like to point out here is that you haven't heard the other parts of the story (yet).
I'm sure everyone heard of periodic table of elements, more associated with Chemistry. Well, if you examine it more closely, you'll notice that from one element, another can be made (with a lot of energy); add one atom to another and a molecule can be made. If these atoms exist in space now, why couldn't they've existed 4.5 billion years ago, creating our world?
In Archaeology you'll find that some species don't exist anymore. Some species haven't existed millions of years ago, a hundred years ago. Does God keep creating those for fun, or does it sound more like evolution?
In living organisms, biology shows us that we are what we eat, if you don't eat you die. Because our bodies digest food to molecules and from those molecules we create what is needed in our body. Again, nothing divine in it, no magic. When we die, if we're put into the ground, decomposers will eat us, if we're burnt, we become CO2 and fly away. People might say they'll go to heaven, but again, it is believed that you must have a soul for that. I think, that our brains, hormones, genes make us who we are (girls sometimes have days, when they want to shoot somebody's head off, but it doesn't mean they are bad people ;D).
And my favourite -- genetics; DNA is the god people should be praying to. This baby has a bigger defense mechanism than the Terminator. Did you know that a few minutes in the sun creates millions of DNA mutations in your skin? We don't get cancer so easily, because of that defense. And I'm not talking about Xrays, gamma rays and other stuff that basically kills us on a cellular level. I wouldn't want to bore you with scientific stuff (I'm sure I've done it already), but genetic material and changes in it has created so many species, out of which only the strongest (best suited for the environment) have survived.
Holding on to genetics, have you heard about cloning? All you take is a little DNA and you are a god...
My point was, that evolution made us,people, who we are. My gods are my mum and dad, they created me. That's who you should be praising.
I'd like to repeat myself, I'm not saying religion is bad. It's GOOD. The philosophical things it teaches people are important for everyone to become a true Person. It just shouldn't be taken so literally, just like any other book. If you know history, religion used to be a tool for power and control. It's easier to control a person who's scared of the almighty God. Now we have schools, where they teach kids what is good and what is bad. Maybe, it's essential to learn about god first, engrain the good inside of you and then learn about life. Until a better way is created.
And now, so that my lips wouldn't be sealed forever in this forum for talking so much off topic, I'll answer Clem_Everett's question:
In my darkest fantasies I have thought about it as I'm a huge ZA movie,book,game fan. It wouldn't make me rethink my opinion on God, because of reasons above and I agree, that it would probably be caused by something horrible humans have created, like a virus or other disease. Also, it would mean degradation of humanity, since we've built so much in our world. That's why I'm scared of catastrophes such as asteroids or unexpected tsunami which can happen anytime.
Speaking of morality, I've always seen TWD other people's choices as a little experiment, whether they'd save strangers in such event ;D Maybe it doesn't show the real truth, but I think such games make you ponder, if you'd have the guts to do something selfless or horrible. My ZA plan would be gather a group of people, save anyone who still can be saved and be peaceful (not steal from others or be a cruel dictator).
Now that I think about it, I'd trust people who believe in God, only because they wouldn't be selfish or gone crazy and be killing everyone, but that's the 'stereotypical me' speaking.
Some theme I've noticed in this forum is the argument of Science vs. Religion.
As a Christian who has accepted Jesus Christ into my heart… more, I don't really consider myself anything else other than a Christian, meaning that I have accepted Jesus Christ into my heart. (Not trying to be preachy, just clarifying.)
And my favorite subject to learn about right now, is Astronomy. The study of the stars and everything out there beyond Earth, beyond our solar system, beyond everything we know. And I won't lie, the thought of a Supreme Being at the reigns of it all does sometimes seem a bit strange in the midst of everything. I won't lie, my faith has faltered at times in my life when I thought about the vastness of the Universe and Existence. I'm not perfect, no one is, but thinking that there is a God who understands that, and stills loves us and wants to know us, is comforting.
However, if one thinks that this idea is silly, I do understand, … [view original content]
As a firm believer in the Church of Beard, (formerly Mustache), I think that Our Prophet, Kenny, shall lead his chosen ones to salvation from the Walkers by the means of a Boat, since it is the most important thing in world. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvj1LP7SOvo
Maybe the problem isn't in feeling fear and more about that we don't understand how our brain's neurons work that causes someone to be rapist or a criminal. Very conversation of that kind end in having a scientific theory that leads to understanding of the whole case in the following years. The Earth isn't flat, We are not the center of the galaxy, Or the universe, .... Etc. However, This theory can't be proven right now.
When you say: They go to hell! you are implying that they were "sent" by "someone" to this "place" because of reprehensible acts.
In my p… moreersonal opnion that's a wrong way to understand it. God doesn't send anyone to heaven or to hell. it is a spiritual merits of each. if you're in hell this is your fault, your imperfection condemned you to this situation. your addictions holds you and prevent you from opening your wings and fly away. Do not blame God for your mistakes, blame yourself.
This hell is not absolute or eternal. get rid of it only depends on your will.
I disagree about the idea of separations of morals and beliefs. Obviously you can be an atheist and be a good person and a Christian and a serial killer, but those moral judgements are yours being placed on that person - from the perspective of the person thinking their morals are going to invariably informed by their beliefs. Consider the level of people against homosexuality in among Christians and among Atheists. You're going to find plenty of Christians supportive of homosexuals and plenty of Atheists against them, but there is going to be a disparity. An extreme example; consider Jihadis. They fall under the serial killer variety, but it is because of their religion. I'm sure the response will be 'they're perverting the religion,' but that doesn't matter one way or the other- what matters is that their religious beliefs, and how those beliefs transfers into values and actions. I've mentioned Christians and Muslims, but I haven't addressed atheists - that is mostly because I, an Agnostic (which a lot of people will say is Atheist, if you use Atheist as an umbrella term, I suppose it is, but I believe the two to be philosophically distinct), basically see a lack of belief in a diety as corresponding to a blank slate in terms of value and morality (a la Nietzsche or Sartre), and it is up then to the individual to decide their values.
Of course, some can interpret Kierkegaard as a sort of agnostic theist - where the individual takes the 'leap of faith' into enacting their values (most famously using the example of the Parable of Abraham and Isaac, where Abraham chose to believe that the voice speaking to him was that of an angel rather than that of a demon), but those people are pretty rare I find.
How do you morally understand an event of this magnitude?
Morals and belief don't have much relation to each other, actually. You can be … moreatheistic and be a compassionate sweetheart, or be Christian and a serial killer. I don't understand why you'd ask this specifically because I'm an atheist, unless you're implying that atheists lack a sturdy moral foundation?
Anyways, bad things happen. Volcanic eruptions, storms, plagues, you name it. This would just be another disaster; no particular reason for it happening other than, well, it happens. Personally, I'd be willing to get my hands a little dirty if the survival of the people I cared about counted on it.
This catastrophic event would make you rethink about believe in God?
I don't think so. Judging by how routine things become for the survivors after a while, I think I'd just stick with my current views.
This catastrophic event would only serve to reinforce the idea that there i… [view original content]
You're right, and nor can any theory of this nature. It's all a matter of belief. Some people will feel cheated if there's no afterlife so they believe in one. I personally feel that in terms of the self that death is the end. Maybe one day we'll know for sure, but for now it'll just be speculation. Now time for a rant.
My number one problem with afterlife beliefs, other than that I simply don't share them, is that the religious people who believe in them oft seem hypocritical or dogmatic. Believing in an afterlife and acting a certain way only because you think you will be rewarded is not true morality; it's like getting a confession from a torture victim.
These same people will also, in general, treat this world, the one we are all perceivably in, as if it has zero value or meaning. When faced with non-believers or personal questions against their faith they will say, just as Clem_Everett did, that life then has no meaning. They say this when irregardless of if there is an afterlife there are always tangible effects of one's actions on Earth. If an organ donor gives an organ that saves another persons life, that person surely isn't going to think, "Geez, it really is a shame that my donor lived a meaningless life. I am completely ungrateful, and why shouldn't I be since life is meaningless?" My point is, basically, that shameless selfishness seems to prevail amongst those who believe in an afterlife. I don't want anyone to take this as a personal attack, but if you are offended by this you may want to consider why.
Maybe the problem isn't in feeling fear and more about that we don't understand how our brain's neurons work that causes someone to be rapis… moret or a criminal. Very conversation of that kind end in having a scientific theory that leads to understanding of the whole case in the following years. The Earth isn't flat, We are not the center of the galaxy, Or the universe, .... Etc. However, This theory can't be proven right now.
"I think I'd have bigger concerns on my hands than theological pondering"
-disagree with you there. I'd be like Bob in the TV show. Wandering around alone brooding and reading the occasional book, sleeping on high places where zombies can't get me, each night drinking my sorrows away. Basically, nothing much would change.
I'm an atheist, and I don't think that would change in the case of the ZA. Firstly, I think I'd have bigger concerns on my hands than theolo… moregical pondering, but further, I don't see zombies as some insane thing that could only be explained by, and increase the plausibility of, the existence of an all-powerful being. Viruses, as we all assume zombies would come from one, are explainable in scientific and medical terms, and although the chaotic, horrific flesh-eating, and 'thought to be possible only in fiction' nature of zombies would definitely make a ZA harder to process than say, a tsunami, they're still both fundamentally the same thing: scary ass shit that nature reminds us it can produce all the time. My faith if I were stuck in either situation would be placed where it is now, on Earth and in people vastly more equipped to deal with it than me: governments, scientists, armies, etc.
Besides, if people that didn't believe before starte… [view original content]
Nah, if it that fish stuff was bullshit then maybe I might believe but I couldn't really give a fuck, send me to hell all you want, just shows you like seeing people suffer. And I don't deal with psychopaths. Cannibals and shit.
Well, He did say before that the problem is in us. That some people needs religion. He treats it as a behavior that causes justice and it's completely understandable.
You're right, and nor can any theory of this nature. It's all a matter of belief. Some people will feel cheated if there's no afterlife so t… morehey believe in one. I personally feel that in terms of the self that death is the end. Maybe one day we'll know for sure, but for now it'll just be speculation. Now time for a rant.
My number one problem with afterlife beliefs, other than that I simply don't share them, is that the religious people who believe in them oft seem hypocritical or dogmatic. Believing in an afterlife and acting a certain way only because you think you will be rewarded is not true morality; it's like getting a confession from a torture victim.
These same people will also, in general, treat this world, the one we are all perceivably in, as if it has zero value or meaning. When faced with non-believers or personal questions against their faith they will say, just as Clem_Everett did, that life then has no meaning. They say t… [view original content]
Do you really believe that you can find "physical" evidence of God's existence? I think this would be a complete waste of time. Since God, in my opinion is not something "material" or something belonging to this reality. and therefore, tangible evidence of it are impossible.
I think if you want to find God, you need to start looking within yourself.
I recognize that god is a being that is not proven with facts, but people put their faith in nontheless. I think that's a bad idea. We don't use faith to leap to such big assumptions when it comes to things other than god, and it doesn't make sense to make an exception. Nothing's wrong with some healthy skepticism.
Hi there!
I'm not implying anything. if this was implicit in the question somehow, I apologize. My goal here is just that people discuss … moreon the subject, and there is a healthy debate among us! ^^
I enjoyed your words about the fact of morality and belief are unrelated. this is true.
" I don't believe in God because of a lack of supporting evidence."
Do you really believe that you can find "physical" evidence of God's existence? I think this would be a complete waste of time. Since God, in my opinion is not something "material" or something belonging to this reality. and therefore, tangible evidence of it are impossible.
I think if you want to find God, you need to start looking within yourself.
I dunno, I'm doing pretty good right now. In a nice, air-conditioned room. And while I'm doing this, there's thousands of people living in poverty, dying slowly and painfully as they're unable to feed themselves.
But uh, wouldn't we both be getting the ultimate award? Why do they have to suffer more than me? It doesn't make sense.
Hey guys! I am very thankful for all of you are so professionally debating the issues of this topic. this is the third time I post here. and… more it seems that this thread was very successful. I apologize for not replying to you all. is that I get home late from work. and all opinions here are very well constructed and intelligent. it takes time to answer questions of this level. ^^
But I promise I will do my best to try and talk with everyone.
I'm going to sleep now! peace. -_-
As a firm believer in the Church of Beard, (formerly Mustache), I think that Our Prophet, Kenny, shall lead his chosen ones to salvation fro… morem the Walkers by the means of a Boat, since it is the most important thing in world. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvj1LP7SOvo
(Thanks Jewfreeus for making this vid)
My belief would be confirmed. What do I believe? I believe god exists, I also believe god is a dick. Let's give people free will! And punish them for all eternity for not doing what I say. Look, all the humans are acting up and being bad, better drown everything. Building a tower all by yourselves? How cute, let me break that for you, and then make you all speak different languages so you can't build another! Performing the miracle of flight? Well you don't believe in me so now I'll make you fall and break your legs. Gay marriage and abortion is legal now? better create a zombie apocalypse....
I dunno, I'm doing pretty good right now. In a nice, air-conditioned room. And while I'm doing this, there's thousands of people living in p… moreoverty, dying slowly and painfully as they're unable to feed themselves.
But uh, wouldn't we both be getting the ultimate award? Why do they have to suffer more than me? It doesn't make sense.
You can't deny that some people suffer more than others. It's not like I don't suffer. But there are people who are worse off than me, who, according to you, will get the same 'ultimate reward' as me.
Comments
I like the argument with heaven and hell. It implies that every rational thinking being would choose to do good, just to reach heaven. Moreover, it would neutralize the will to do evil, if rationalization 'takes place'. But free will implies it, which would lead to a little contradiction. It gives me a lot to think about.
I like the idea that if we think of Adam and Eve, you’re right they simply miss the temptation to do evil. They can't even tell the difference. But I have to read Kierkegaard first
I hope I got things right so far
I like to comment on the natural disasters. I think they can be explained if we think of free will, like a choice of a 'personal/local' maximum. Although nature has not a mind, it 'behaves' within a certain ‘framework/mindset’, the laws of physics. Given a certain set of parameters, one or rather multiple local maxima are possible, hence ‘choice’ exists, e.g. 30% probability of rain. Although this isn’t really ‘will’, since the consciousness is missing, there is some sort of choice. Not active, rather as a chain of events. Started by the even smallest of butterflies
And since nature is part of the creation, it’s ‘decision’ is respected, too.
When you say: They go to hell! you are implying that they were "sent" by "someone" to this "place" because of reprehensible acts.
In my personal opnion that's a wrong way to understand it. God doesn't send anyone to heaven or to hell. it is a spiritual merits of each. if you're in hell this is your fault, your imperfection condemned you to this situation. your addictions holds you and prevent you from opening your wings and fly away. Do not blame God for your mistakes, blame yourself.
This hell is not absolute or eternal. get rid of it only depends on your will.
Same right here girl! Preach it
Some theme I've noticed in this forum is the argument of Science vs. Religion.
As a Christian who has accepted Jesus Christ into my heart, I don't really consider myself anything else other than a Christian, meaning that I have accepted Jesus Christ into my heart. (Not trying to be preachy, just clarifying.)
And my favorite subject to learn about right now, is Astronomy. The study of the stars and everything out there beyond Earth, beyond our solar system, beyond everything we know. And I won't lie, the thought of a Supreme Being at the reigns of it all does sometimes seem a bit strange in the midst of everything. I won't lie, my faith has faltered at times in my life when I thought about the vastness of the Universe and Existence. I'm not perfect, no one is, but thinking that there is a God who understands that, and stills loves us and wants to know us, is comforting.
However, if one thinks that this idea is silly, I do understand, really I do. But after taking Astronomy for a year, and talking to my professors and peers in my life who are scientists, and asking them about their opinions on God and a Supreme Being, I've made up my mind, and I've come to realize that Science and Religion don't have to be bitter opposites. I choose to believe in them both as best I can.
As for this situation, in the event of a Zombie Apocalypse, you betcha I'd be pretty upset, wondering why this all happened. But at the end of the day, if it's just me in the world all alone. I'd much rather believe that their is a God, and a place called heaven out there, and then die and find out there is nothing. I want to believe there is someone who loves me, no matter what.
I've been reading a lot of comments on here, they're all good points coming from both sides of the spectrum. Everyone makes good points, in the end, it's simply your own choice what you believe. Okay, my speech is over.
.... And dislikes for me go!!! -____-
Your point of view is interesting, and like you. I also do not believe that Heaven or Hell are " places " where the individual remains for eternity. this is a poor and worthless concept to me . Paradise and Hell are purely an equilibrium state of each person in my humble opinion.
Why I say that the lack of an afterlife is nonsense. because a " finite " life completely negates any concept of justice and makes explicit the idea that being good or bad makes no difference because in the end the equation will always be zero!
Whether you were Jesus Christ or Adolf Hitler. you would never be judged by what you committed.
That's why I believe in the Law of Karma , because it justifies and adds moral value to goodness and badness. A rapist who has consciousness of Universal Justice , will think twice before doing so. because he will be tried for acts committed. however, this same rapist knowing that there will be no trial for any of his actions, will not hesitate to satisfy his worldly vices.
It is like a thief that will keep stealing forever, knowing that the system will never arrest him for his crimes.
The idea of an afterlife, is not only a matter of moral justice. is also a hope for the future. Leave a legacy for others, such as Lee did with Clem. is something honorable of course. but what about the personal merits? they do not count? I want to continue to exist after this life, I do not see myself being completely destroyed by natural law, to me nothing is created and nothing is lost. everything is transformed.
I'm an atheist, and I don't think that would change in the case of the ZA. Firstly, I think I'd have bigger concerns on my hands than theological pondering, but further, I don't see zombies as some insane thing that could only be explained by, and increase the plausibility of, the existence of an all-powerful being. Viruses, as we all assume zombies would come from one, are explainable in scientific and medical terms, and although the chaotic, horrific flesh-eating, and 'thought to be possible only in fiction' nature of zombies would definitely make a ZA harder to process than say, a tsunami, they're still both fundamentally the same thing: scary ass shit that nature reminds us it can produce all the time. My faith if I were stuck in either situation would be placed where it is now, on Earth and in people vastly more equipped to deal with it than me: governments, scientists, armies, etc.
Besides, if people that didn't believe before started doing so when the zombies rise up, it wouldn't even be real belief or acceptance of religious doctrine, it'd just be their way of coping with the threat of imminent death and making themselves feel better about it by imagining there's a grand reason for it or that someone is up there looking out for them and will keep them alive, imo.
Hope this wasn't too offensive, hard to tell sometimes with sensitive topics like these...
Yeah man! I fully agree. society is very hypocritical in that sense! it pisses me off.
The kitten, the puppy, the little mouse. are animals just like the pig and kitty and chicken. why the pig may die and turn bacon and the dog can not? bunch of hypocrites..
About the fact that Jesus ate fish, there are no precise information about it. but according to the Spiritist doctrine, if he ate meat, it would be added to his Karma. but hey, the man was in a sacrificial mission. eat a fish in his last supper is a mere detail ..
Is a terrible thing what they do! ;(
Being religious is to practice charity and mercy. is trying to be a person of good character. this is independent of any religion.
have a religion does not mean you are actually practicing what you studies. for many people, religion is just a facade ..
I replied to your other post! >>>>>>
Thank you! -_-
Nice said
LOL God has a sense of humor.
Hence, there is a Miley Cyrus.
I personally don't think there needs to be a system of supernatural judgement for humans after their death. History remembers people for who they were, and I believe it ends there. Each person's judgement is in the perception they leave with their fellow human beings. The simple fact that you placed Hitler in your post as a comparison of good vs evil shows that. As for a system of universal justice I have to disagree, I don't think there is any system of judgement after death beyond that of the surviving human beings. As for moral justice, morality and justice are both man made creation, and so judgement based on them once again is left to humans. If a mass extinction occurred tomorrow and all human beings died, the very ideas of morality and justice would die with us because there would be no humans left to uphold those views.
A finite life doesn't negate the concept of justice, nor does it mean that being bad or good makes no difference. A good person will have a positive affect on the world, whereas a bad person will have a negative one. Humanity itself is left to decide what justice befits a person's actions while they are alive, which is why there is a justice system. Justice systems may not be perfect, but that's because they as well as the idea of justice are once again man made creations. Everything a person does has an affect on this world.
As for personal merits, in the grand scheme of things I don't think they count for anything at all, no. All they count for is the perception others have of you. Life isn't fair, it just simply is. You are absolutely right about only being transformed though. Your consciousness may cease to be when your body dies and the electrical impulses in your brain cease, but your body will decay into the soil and continue the circle of life.
Than why be a "religious" person and not just an honorable and moral one? Being religious implies you are following a religion, but to practice charity, mercy, and good character does not require one, as you already stated, so why attach the connotation?
God cannot directly stop all evil because that would be breaking his promise to us of free will. A lot of evil on Earth comes from our own decisions. Of course, you can pray to Him and the Saints for intervention but he's really not the one to blame when a store is broken into and whatnot.
Hi there!
I'm not implying anything. if this was implicit in the question somehow, I apologize. My goal here is just that people discuss on the subject, and there is a healthy debate among us! ^^
I enjoyed your words about the fact of morality and belief are unrelated. this is true.
Do you really believe that you can find "physical" evidence of God's existence? I think this would be a complete waste of time. Since God, in my opinion is not something "material" or something belonging to this reality. and therefore, tangible evidence of it are impossible.
I think if you want to find God, you need to start looking within yourself.
In other words, you would adapt to this new reality. even if it meant sacrificing part of your humanity for the sake of survival?
I believe in God and i wouldn't lose my faith during the ZA i would maybe wonder why He is doing it but i wouold still believe
Why bad thing happen to good people ? Cause after all the suffering the ultimate reward awaits.
Well. seems like we got to the point of our debate in which there are no longer counter-arguments. we both defined our opinions about what we think.
You are resigned to this life and it's concepts. and is happy with things as they are.
I on the other hand, am a guy who is not content just with the "labels" and try to make sense of what exists beyond the packaging.
But I must thank you Eddie_Maiden for this intelligent conversation! it was very interesting and I'm glad for it!
You have my thanks as well. It always impresses me how religion can be discussed in this community without unnecessary violence.
Adapting would be a necessity for survival. But im not sure having a new outlook on humanity would mean losing a part of it. It could go bad and good but i would like to say that i would never lose my solidarity with my fellow humanbeings.
Hey guys! I am very thankful for all of you are so professionally debating the issues of this topic. this is the third time I post here. and it seems that this thread was very successful. I apologize for not replying to you all. is that I get home late from work. and all opinions here are very well constructed and intelligent. it takes time to answer questions of this level. ^^
But I promise I will do my best to try and talk with everyone.
I'm going to sleep now! peace. -_-
Very nice comment and I doubt you'll get dislikes, since the majority of people truly believe in god while at the same time doubting his existence.
I'd like to warn, that my comment might sound like a Darwin's witness knocking on your door and with every cell in my body I'm trying not to sound intolerant.
Usually, you turn to god when you spiritually need him and since we're all the same sinful and scared little beings in our huge universe, we all need to believe in something, either it's a man with a nice beard and a loving face or just something Divine we can't see, or even ourselves.
When you dive in into science even more, you can't ignore the fact that the theory of creationism sounds too fantastical compared to evolution. You've just seen the Astronomical side, which showed you the little inaccuracies in the Bible. What I'd like to point out here is that you haven't heard the other parts of the story (yet).
I'm sure everyone heard of periodic table of elements, more associated with Chemistry. Well, if you examine it more closely, you'll notice that from one element, another can be made (with a lot of energy); add one atom to another and a molecule can be made. If these atoms exist in space now, why couldn't they've existed 4.5 billion years ago, creating our world?
In Archaeology you'll find that some species don't exist anymore. Some species haven't existed millions of years ago, a hundred years ago. Does God keep creating those for fun, or does it sound more like evolution?
In living organisms, biology shows us that we are what we eat, if you don't eat you die. Because our bodies digest food to molecules and from those molecules we create what is needed in our body. Again, nothing divine in it, no magic. When we die, if we're put into the ground, decomposers will eat us, if we're burnt, we become CO2 and fly away. People might say they'll go to heaven, but again, it is believed that you must have a soul for that. I think, that our brains, hormones, genes make us who we are (girls sometimes have days, when they want to shoot somebody's head off, but it doesn't mean they are bad people ;D).
And my favourite -- genetics; DNA is the god people should be praying to. This baby has a bigger defense mechanism than the Terminator. Did you know that a few minutes in the sun creates millions of DNA mutations in your skin? We don't get cancer so easily, because of that defense. And I'm not talking about Xrays, gamma rays and other stuff that basically kills us on a cellular level. I wouldn't want to bore you with scientific stuff (I'm sure I've done it already), but genetic material and changes in it has created so many species, out of which only the strongest (best suited for the environment) have survived.
Holding on to genetics, have you heard about cloning? All you take is a little DNA and you are a god...
My point was, that evolution made us,people, who we are. My gods are my mum and dad, they created me. That's who you should be praising.
I'd like to repeat myself, I'm not saying religion is bad. It's GOOD. The philosophical things it teaches people are important for everyone to become a true Person. It just shouldn't be taken so literally, just like any other book. If you know history, religion used to be a tool for power and control. It's easier to control a person who's scared of the almighty God. Now we have schools, where they teach kids what is good and what is bad. Maybe, it's essential to learn about god first, engrain the good inside of you and then learn about life. Until a better way is created.
And now, so that my lips wouldn't be sealed forever in this forum for talking so much off topic, I'll answer Clem_Everett's question:
In my darkest fantasies I have thought about it as I'm a huge ZA movie,book,game fan. It wouldn't make me rethink my opinion on God, because of reasons above and I agree, that it would probably be caused by something horrible humans have created, like a virus or other disease. Also, it would mean degradation of humanity, since we've built so much in our world.
That's why I'm scared of catastrophes such as asteroids or unexpected tsunami which can happen anytime.
Speaking of morality, I've always seen TWD other people's choices as a little experiment, whether they'd save strangers in such event ;D Maybe it doesn't show the real truth, but I think such games make you ponder, if you'd have the guts to do something selfless or horrible. My ZA plan would be gather a group of people, save anyone who still can be saved and be peaceful (not steal from others or be a cruel dictator).
Now that I think about it, I'd trust people who believe in God, only because they wouldn't be selfish or gone crazy and be killing everyone, but that's the 'stereotypical me' speaking.
As a firm believer in the Church of Beard, (formerly Mustache), I think that Our Prophet, Kenny, shall lead his chosen ones to salvation from the Walkers by the means of a Boat, since it is the most important thing in world. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvj1LP7SOvo
(Thanks Jewfreeus for making this vid)
Maybe the problem isn't in feeling fear and more about that we don't understand how our brain's neurons work that causes someone to be rapist or a criminal. Very conversation of that kind end in having a scientific theory that leads to understanding of the whole case in the following years. The Earth isn't flat, We are not the center of the galaxy, Or the universe, .... Etc. However, This theory can't be proven right now.
Who made hell? Who made you imperfect? Who gave you the drive to do evil?
In short, 1) why is there a hell? and 2) who put the fruit in the Garden?
I disagree about the idea of separations of morals and beliefs. Obviously you can be an atheist and be a good person and a Christian and a serial killer, but those moral judgements are yours being placed on that person - from the perspective of the person thinking their morals are going to invariably informed by their beliefs. Consider the level of people against homosexuality in among Christians and among Atheists. You're going to find plenty of Christians supportive of homosexuals and plenty of Atheists against them, but there is going to be a disparity. An extreme example; consider Jihadis. They fall under the serial killer variety, but it is because of their religion. I'm sure the response will be 'they're perverting the religion,' but that doesn't matter one way or the other- what matters is that their religious beliefs, and how those beliefs transfers into values and actions. I've mentioned Christians and Muslims, but I haven't addressed atheists - that is mostly because I, an Agnostic (which a lot of people will say is Atheist, if you use Atheist as an umbrella term, I suppose it is, but I believe the two to be philosophically distinct), basically see a lack of belief in a diety as corresponding to a blank slate in terms of value and morality (a la Nietzsche or Sartre), and it is up then to the individual to decide their values.
Of course, some can interpret Kierkegaard as a sort of agnostic theist - where the individual takes the 'leap of faith' into enacting their values (most famously using the example of the Parable of Abraham and Isaac, where Abraham chose to believe that the voice speaking to him was that of an angel rather than that of a demon), but those people are pretty rare I find.
You're right, and nor can any theory of this nature. It's all a matter of belief. Some people will feel cheated if there's no afterlife so they believe in one. I personally feel that in terms of the self that death is the end. Maybe one day we'll know for sure, but for now it'll just be speculation. Now time for a rant.
My number one problem with afterlife beliefs, other than that I simply don't share them, is that the religious people who believe in them oft seem hypocritical or dogmatic. Believing in an afterlife and acting a certain way only because you think you will be rewarded is not true morality; it's like getting a confession from a torture victim.
These same people will also, in general, treat this world, the one we are all perceivably in, as if it has zero value or meaning. When faced with non-believers or personal questions against their faith they will say, just as Clem_Everett did, that life then has no meaning. They say this when irregardless of if there is an afterlife there are always tangible effects of one's actions on Earth. If an organ donor gives an organ that saves another persons life, that person surely isn't going to think, "Geez, it really is a shame that my donor lived a meaningless life. I am completely ungrateful, and why shouldn't I be since life is meaningless?" My point is, basically, that shameless selfishness seems to prevail amongst those who believe in an afterlife. I don't want anyone to take this as a personal attack, but if you are offended by this you may want to consider why.
End rant, lol.
HOW DARE YOU!
Just kidding,
"I think I'd have bigger concerns on my hands than theological pondering"
-disagree with you there. I'd be like Bob in the TV show. Wandering around alone brooding and reading the occasional book, sleeping on high places where zombies can't get me, each night drinking my sorrows away. Basically, nothing much would change.
Nah, if it that fish stuff was bullshit then maybe I might believe but I couldn't really give a fuck, send me to hell all you want, just shows you like seeing people suffer. And I don't deal with psychopaths. Cannibals and shit.
Well, He did say before that the problem is in us. That some people needs religion. He treats it as a behavior that causes justice and it's completely understandable.
I recognize that god is a being that is not proven with facts, but people put their faith in nontheless. I think that's a bad idea. We don't use faith to leap to such big assumptions when it comes to things other than god, and it doesn't make sense to make an exception. Nothing's wrong with some healthy skepticism.
I dunno, I'm doing pretty good right now. In a nice, air-conditioned room. And while I'm doing this, there's thousands of people living in poverty, dying slowly and painfully as they're unable to feed themselves.
But uh, wouldn't we both be getting the ultimate award? Why do they have to suffer more than me? It doesn't make sense.
part of being in a debate is to let other answer others, don't feel pressured to answer everyone.
All praise the Almighty Boat, for it shall carry us to salvation's shores.
My belief would be confirmed. What do I believe? I believe god exists, I also believe god is a dick. Let's give people free will! And punish them for all eternity for not doing what I say. Look, all the humans are acting up and being bad, better drown everything. Building a tower all by yourselves? How cute, let me break that for you, and then make you all speak different languages so you can't build another! Performing the miracle of flight? Well you don't believe in me so now I'll make you fall and break your legs. Gay marriage and abortion is legal now? better create a zombie apocalypse....
Then you are bad XD no, we all pay or suffer in a different way, not all with poverty .Everyone has a cross to carry through life.
You can't deny that some people suffer more than others. It's not like I don't suffer. But there are people who are worse off than me, who, according to you, will get the same 'ultimate reward' as me.