For me,I'm just thinking it's time for Kenny to go,without him Mike & Bonnie wouldn't betray us,and it was him who insult Jane in the first place,do you remember the line when Kenny said I know exactly what you are. Nothing. Nobody cares about you, and you care about nobody but yourself. And that makes you nothing. he just pour gasoline on the spark.Hell,even Rebecca felt sorry after said that.
It seems that Rebecca rubbed off on Jane. Rebecca immediately dismissed Jane's grief as nothing special because she herself had lost her loved one - while harsh, Jane does the same thing by dismissing Kenny's losses. The point is that it's not a competition of misery. Everybody's lost someone by this point, and your loved ones' deaths should not be justification for your own insane behavior.
For me,I'm just thinking it's time for Kenny to go,without him Mike & Bonnie wouldn't betray us,and it was him who insult Jane in the fi… morerst place,do you remember the line when Kenny said I know exactly what you are. Nothing. Nobody cares about you, and you care about nobody but yourself. And that makes you nothing. he just pour gasoline on the spark.Hell,even Rebecca felt sorry after said that.
We don't really know this at all. I mean.. Jane didn't even try to properly explain herself. That was the point though. She was being vague and shady on purpose.
Behavior immediately following the death of a loved one is kind of different though. Especially when talking about the possibility of murder (which Jane was clearly heavily trying to push on Kenny).
It seems that Rebecca rubbed off on Jane. Rebecca immediately dismissed Jane's grief as nothing special because she herself had lost her lo… moreved one - while harsh, Jane does the same thing by dismissing Kenny's losses. The point is that it's not a competition of misery. Everybody's lost someone by this point, and your loved ones' deaths should not be justification for your own insane behavior.
Which applies to both adults.
You're right. But Kenny's still the one that starts it and Jane reacted. After being choked, the first (obviously defensive) slash and the sight of blood, the adrenaline set in. After that, it was on. Remember the best defense is a good offense. As long as Jane felt in danger, she was also defending herself. Of course, I guess that applies to Kenny too after you get between them.
Jane definitely did not stay on the defensive. If anything, it was the other way around.
After Kenny had Jane pinned against the wall (ve… morery similar to his issue with Mike in Episode Three), I managed to seperate them. Jane responded by taking the opportunity to smash her fist into Kenny's bad eye, knocking him to the ground. She then jumped on him and attempted to land a ton of blows to his face area, but he was able to block them. After pulling her off of Kenny, she immediately got a lethal weapon in hand (her knife) and slashed Kenny's stomach after he had gotten up and walked towards her. After slashing him she charged him once he had retreated outside. She then walked towards him with knife in hand while he slowly tried to distance himself. She then lunged and tried to slash him with her knife. Kenny dodged the slash, and then Jane followed it up with a stab. Kenny dodges the stab as well, and then caught her arm and threw her to the g… [view original content]
There and then, I didn't see what Jane was doing as manipulation. I presumed she had lost the baby fighting off walkers or whatever.. Last time we saw her before the rest stop, she was in a pretty crappy situation, so it could have happened.
Not giving Jane any time to explain what has happened, Kenny violently attacks her. In my eyes, Kenny was the instigator of that fight, not Jane.
Also, Jane attempts to end the fight shedding her knife, and telling Kenny it was an accident, but again, Kenny ain't listening. I can understand him getting furious at her, but attacking her, without even knowing what has really taken place is a bit crazy.
I thought that these events showed Kennys clouded judgement and violent temper even more clearly than ever. Yes, Jane deliberately pushed Kennys buttons to make him snap, but I saw this as her trying to bring out what she knew was there: an obsessed violent man. Do I agree with what she did? Hell no, but I can understand why she would do it.
Now, I'll just say, that Im definitely not with "Team Jane" or "Team Kenny" or whatever. They both had their flaws (some big ones too lol), but I just acted on what I felt was right at the moment and what I thought would keep Clem safe.
When Kenny was about to stab Jane, the only right thing to do for me was to pull the trigger.
Even though she instigated the fight a… morend then tried to kill him once he responded violently? At the point that Kenny kills Jane he was fighting for his life.
I guess it depends on if you could tell that she was trying to manipulate Kenny or not. At the point that she tells Clem that she was about to see Kenny for what he "really is", I knew she had manipulated him.
I think Jane probably pushed Clem out of the way, because she feared that Kenny would jump at her again - either that or she didn't want to be seen to "use" Clem as a shield.
And yeah - when Jane said to trust her, I did. I knew she hadn't lost the baby, and that was also why I tried to stop Kenny doing what he wanted to do, since I trusted Jane to do what was right - which she did.
Only difference is that I was smiling all over when I got to shoot Kenny, but other than that - I hear ya
I'm not a Kenny hater, I just don't see him doing the right thing in that episode. Jane pushed you out of the way because you were holding h… moreer back. I'd have done the exact same thing. She's almost 99% like me. She promised me that she will never abandon me again.
Also, Kenny's idea of respect bugged me.
Also, Jane's test to Kenny's patience was pretty predictable. I predicted it all along ever since she told me to trust her. Jane and My Clem are a perfect harmony. I almost cried when I had to shoot Kenny, We've been through a lot together.
I think Jane probably pushed Clem out of the way, because she feared that Kenny would jump at her again - either that or she didn't want to … morebe seen to "use" Clem as a shield.
And yeah - when Jane said to trust her, I did. I knew she hadn't lost the baby, and that was also why I tried to stop Kenny doing what he wanted to do, since I trusted Jane to do what was right - which she did.
Only difference is that I was smiling all over when I got to shoot Kenny, but other than that - I hear ya
Yeah, Because Kenny is out of control. What I've been always trying to indicate while talking to you about Snow or Kenny, That there're two opinions and the two are very valid, You just have to pay much attention to the game. Me and Flog agreed that the Lee's dream sequence was actually a foreshadow of Kenny becoming Lilly 2.0, And that you're gonna have to be given a choice, Either to help Lilly 2.0 overcome their problems by sacrificing your new friend, Or to save your new friend, There's no right or wrong scenario.
It'd personally depend on you as a person to decide how to trust and for your own reasons. And that's has been Telltale's point all along, Who will you trust, Who will you become? There's no, Jane was right scenario or Kenny was right scenario.
Because he attacked her prior to that??
I'm not saying whether she had justification for her actions or not. I was simply saying tha… moret wasn't just defending herself (someone had said that she was mainly only defending herself). She took it much further than that.
Seriously though, I'm all for good debates, I don't mean to be rude, But the simple idea that you just don't accept any other ideas rather than your own is pretty annoying. You can't jsut state your opinions as facts.
I'm not doing that at all. I'm just telling you that I went back and tried literally every option and didn't get the supposed result that you did. That is why I want proof. Maybe you should just go back replay the scene.. because I really think you're confused.
My point was that Jane didn't start the fight. Kenny can't just go ahead hitting her and expecting no retaliation. Specially after the latest tensions between the two of them.
Only saying that wasn't just straight up defending herself.
I dont think he was a terrrible person. He was a kid who was in a group of adults who more or less told him what to do. He tried to barter for his life with the only thing he had, a place to go that had food. It wasnt pointless. Everything he promised was there. Yeah, the house was half built and there were only two bags of food, but it was better than nothing. And what happened to Luke was a horrible accident. I dont think thats what Arvo intended. I think he just wanted to get away from the guy who indicated in every way that he wanted to kill him. He already tried a couple of times at that point. Anyone would have done the same thing.
As for what Jane did, she herself admitted that it was a bad idea and that she didn't believe Kenny would go as far as he did. I'm not condoning it but I think we saw enough of Kenny, in this episode alone, and the other's reactions to him, particularly Mike's, to see that he was escalating. He was scaring everyone in the group. Eventually, based on his actions and attitude, I think we can see that Kenny wasn't just going to snap out of it and be a reasonable guy. I saw this Kenny all the way back in season 1 with the boat thing and he has just gotten worse. Both Kenny and Jane were kind of hardheaded and I really dont believe they could have worked together. Frankly, I was surprised he took her in the truck with him at all.
The thing that concerned me about Kenny with the baby, and maybe I was influenced by the comments I read on the board about people calling him Kenny's baby and Kenny needs the baby to keep his sanity and things like that, is that the baby was less a person and more an object for Kenny to focus on. His whole state of mind was tied to trying to keep the baby alive. Its not fair to make a baby responsible for a grown man's mental health. The whole thing with Kenny taking almost full responsibility for AJ just bothered because I felt Kenny was so unstable. Anyway, those are my thoughts on the subject. I really hope we can move on completely next season.
I understand being a bit rough with Arvo. He was a terrible person that almost got the entire group killed. He then debatably had a hand in … morecausing Luke to die, and led the group on a long pointless journey for a couple of cans of food.
I think Jane chose that method because it would get him to explode quicker but he was already getting there on his own.
That isn't very fair though. Doing something horrible to someone in order to get them to explode so you can have an excuse to get rid of them is just wrong. We have no way of knowing how things would have turned out if Jane had not instigated that fight.
There was no way all four of them were going to get to Wellington together. That violent argument in the truck would have gotten worse.
I guess it depends if Jane was willing to get on board with Kenny's plan or not. If she did come around and decided to go with him though, then things could very well have been fin… [view original content]
You might be right, if Jane did tell Kenny the baby was alive, he'll probably be like "You're just trying to save your own skin!" But she also can say where the Baby's whereabouts are so Kenny could check it out and see that wasn't lying. So, I guess that Jane would have to say AJ is alive and where he is at for Kenny to stop fighting. But she could have still easily said that when the fight cam to a pause for a second after Jane sliced Kenny. Also, if this is what would happened, Kenny would have realized he can't protect the people cares for anymore and would have ask Jane to take care of them. So you see, Kenny did not need to die, Jane could have just done that and everything would have been fine. If you don't believe, look at all the endings and what Kenny says to Clem. If you shoot him, he'll tell Clem she made the right choice. If you kill him after Jane dies, he'll just say do it, realizing he have gone coco. Also, if you leave Kenny, he'll be understanding and realize that Clem is right, he is too dangerous. He even tells you that at Wellington where he says he can't protect Clem and AJ, believing he is unable to. So if Jane done that, there will probably, PROBABLY, been no death. To be honest, maybe Jane did just wanted to show Clem Kenny's true colors and that it. But I felt like she got lost in the fight and it became all about death.
I agree Belan. I often find another helpful way to view the situation is to switch the characters out for different ones:
Kenny - Lee
Jane - Ben
AJ - Clem
Now. Suppose the old season 1 group gets separated, but the last thing Lee sees is Ben and Clem taking off in one direction with walkers everywhere. Ben runs into Lee later on at a safe point, where Lee asks him where the hell Clementine is. Cue usual Ben stammering and talking about how it was an accident. Ben is a known screw-up, and has abandoned Clementine once before.
Lee. Would. Flip. He would assume that once again, Ben just took off and left her behind. Or maybe accidentally removed a hatchet that was holding back a horde of walkers.
I found Kenny's reaction believable and justified. Jane has a reputation as a loner survivalist, and her being vague that AJ was lost in some kind of accident wouldn't have sounded convincing at all, just as Lee probably wouldn't have believed Ben at all either.
Except that Lee wouldn't have gone ape-shit on Ben - at least my Lee wouldn't have.
He would've waded out there till he found Clem and if she was dead, he would make damn sure she didn't become/remain a walker.
I agree Belan. I often find another helpful way to view the situation is to switch the characters out for different ones:
Kenny - Lee
Ja… morene - Ben
AJ - Clem
Now. Suppose the old season 1 group gets separated, but the last thing Lee sees is Ben and Clem taking off in one direction with walkers everywhere. Ben runs into Lee later on at a safe point, where Lee asks him where the hell Clementine is. Cue usual Ben stammering and talking about how it was an accident. Ben is a known screw-up, and has abandoned Clementine once before.
Lee. Would. Flip. He would assume that once again, Ben just took off and left her behind. Or maybe accidentally removed a hatchet that was holding back a horde of walkers.
I found Kenny's reaction believable and justified. Jane has a reputation as a loner survivalist, and her being vague that AJ was lost in some kind of accident wouldn't have sounded convincing at all, just as Lee probably wouldn't have believed Ben at all either.
I think he would have. A thing consistent with all Lees is that he will threaten Ben and warn him that walkers will be the least of his concerns if he ever puts her in danger again. The only way to not threaten him with this is to simply not talk to him about Clem at all. Him showing up with no Clem at all stammering about how he's sorry and that it was an accident would set him off.
Except that Lee wouldn't have gone ape-shit on Ben - at least my Lee wouldn't have.
He would've waded out there till he found Clem and if she was dead, he would make damn sure she didn't become/remain a walker.
If Lee saw Ben about to harm Clementine in any way - then he would not have hesitated to crush him. But if Clem was missing (presumed dead), then you'd be hard pressed to hold him back. There'd be no point in attacking Ben - that would simply waste time.
Your Lee might have been different, but that's at least how mine would/should have reacted (I say should, because just cause that's the character I was imparting on him, there's no security that there would be any way of avoiding him acting "out of character" - as it were)
I think he would have. A thing consistent with all Lees is that he will threaten Ben and warn him that walkers will be the least of his conc… moreerns if he ever puts her in danger again. The only way to not threaten him with this is to simply not talk to him about Clem at all. Him showing up with no Clem at all stammering about how he's sorry and that it was an accident would set him off.
If Lee saw Ben about to harm Clementine in any way - then he would not have hesitated to crush him. But if Clem was missing (presumed dead), then you'd be hard pressed to hold him back. There'd be no point in attacking Ben - that would simply waste time.
Your Lee might have been different, but that's at least how mine would/should have reacted (I say should, because just cause that's the character I was imparting on him, there's no security that there would be any way of avoiding him acting "out of character" - as it were)
I think he would have. A thing consistent with all Lees is that he will threaten Ben and warn him that walkers will be the least of his conc… moreerns if he ever puts her in danger again. The only way to not threaten him with this is to simply not talk to him about Clem at all. Him showing up with no Clem at all stammering about how he's sorry and that it was an accident would set him off.
You're acting under the presumption that Clementine would be out there missing. This is the wrong thing to presume and not what I've been describing.. We're using the exact same scenario as Kenny-Jane where the baby is presumed to be dead by Kenny due to either malicious intent or negligence on the part of Jane. Not missing and probably dead. Dead dead.
In such a scenario, Lee would absolutely go apeshit on Ben. This is why Kenny's actions are justified.
If Lee saw Ben about to harm Clementine in any way - then he would not have hesitated to crush him. But if Clem was missing (presumed dead),… more then you'd be hard pressed to hold him back. There'd be no point in attacking Ben - that would simply waste time.
Your Lee might have been different, but that's at least how mine would/should have reacted (I say should, because just cause that's the character I was imparting on him, there's no security that there would be any way of avoiding him acting "out of character" - as it were)
I do get that. Still I must say that instead of coming back in and attacking (like Kenny did) Lee would not return till he had found Clem (dead or alive) or he was simply too tired/hurt to continue. And had Kenny done thi, he would eventually have found AJ alive and healthy.
And even if you don't buy that, Lee would have questioned Ben for every detail, in order to optimize his search, at the very least his first reaction would not be one of violence (more likely he'd look inward and blame himself for leaving the car)
You're acting under the presumption that Clementine would be out there missing. This is the wrong thing to presume and not what I've been de… morescribing.. We're using the exact same scenario as Kenny-Jane where the baby is presumed to be dead by Kenny due to either malicious intent or negligence on the part of Jane. Not missing and probably dead. Dead dead.
In such a scenario, Lee would absolutely go apeshit on Ben. This is why Kenny's actions are justified.
People actually shot and killed Kenny based off an assumption that he'll go mad or become Carver or whatever. Yet they completely ignore the fact Jane abandoned the group, didn't try all that hard to save Sarah and instigated the entire ordeal that lead to her deserved death (in my game anyhow). Kenny ain't no saint but who the hell is in this game? I was, of course, rocked by my choice to "Look Away" but I believed it was completely justified when Ken and Clem arrived at Wellington . . . and even MORE justified when Kenny pleaded to let the kids stay. THAT's who Kenny is in my opinion -- so, in a way, Jane was actually correct. His true colors would show.
There haven't been too many of these "multi ending" games that I've walked away feeling completely satisfied with my choices. This was an exception and I can't wait for Season 3.
Really, all the talk of Kenny changing and becoming like Carver by Jane is invalidated by his Wellington ending.
He was still a good man … moredeep down.
Kenny to Lee back in EP2, if Lee feeds the kids: "You thought about the kids before you thought about yourself. That's what a real man does."
Don't get me wrong, I like Jane, but she was not right about him.
I saved Jane, and i regret only that she didn't go to Wellington
Jane is better than Kenny, cause Jane knows how to survive and isn't broken like Kenny
TeamJane xD
I saved Jane, and i regret only that she didn't go to Wellington
Jane is better than Kenny, cause Jane knows how to survive and isn't broken like Kenny
TeamJane xD
You dunno how? Allow me to explain my reasoning then: Firstly (and probably most importantly) I saw through Jane's ploy almost immediately. Obviously it didn't give you that option in game but I personally knew what was up. That was pretty much the nail in the coffin for me when It came to her. Though I liked Jane quite a lot she proved on a number of occasions to be only about herself. I disregard her liking of Clem only because I believe she saw herself in Clem so she felt compelled to stick around her. Meanwhile Kenny would literally walk into a herd of walkers to save somebody he cares for. How about when he shut Clementine up and took blame for the missing radio in episode 3? Jane would never do that. Took charge of Rebecca's pregnancy? Kenny. Had a consistent plan throughout the whole season? Kenny. Always admitted his wrongdoings and made efforts to change? Kenny. Selfless to an absolute fault? Kenny.
Kenny is simply emotional and unhinged. Not a monster. If you ask me I would say Jane is the type to become the next Carver; cold, calculating and way too in tune with a world gone to shit. In my opinion there is absolutely no way Kenny could become like Carver because he cares way too hard. So that is my rationale for allowing Jane to take that blade through the heart. Might not be a child-like decision to make but I'd like to think my Clementine has seen enough of this awful world to see through individuals at that point.
Besides all my hopes were confirmed when Kenny walked off in the sunrise, head high, knowing he'd rescued the only two people he cared about anymore.
I don't know how anyone with a rational mind could back Kenny when he was trying to commit cold blooded murder. He's no worse than Lily or C… morearver at that point and only YOU can save Kenny from fully becoming those monsters by shooting him and saving Jane.
Well said. I don't see how anyone could just take Jane's word for it that the whole baby incident was just an "accident" based on what we know about her character and what she has done in the past. And then the fact that she was seemingly not interested in explaining herself made it look even worse.
People actually shot and killed Kenny based off an assumption that he'll go mad or become Carver or whatever. Yet they completely ignore the… more fact Jane abandoned the group, didn't try all that hard to save Sarah and instigated the entire ordeal that lead to her deserved death (in my game anyhow). Kenny ain't no saint but who the hell is in this game? I was, of course, rocked by my choice to "Look Away" but I believed it was completely justified when Ken and Clem arrived at Wellington . . . and even MORE justified when Kenny pleaded to let the kids stay. THAT's who Kenny is in my opinion -- so, in a way, Jane was actually correct. His true colors would show.
There haven't been too many of these "multi ending" games that I've walked away feeling completely satisfied with my choices. This was an exception and I can't wait for Season 3.
The message from that "Clementine wakes up" scene is to prove that no matter what a person have been through, they still care for people. Jane believes that being "alone" is best for herself.
It's a beet hesitant to say that Jane coming back to the group proved that she "cared" about the group. But she says that she shouldn't have came back in the beginning.
That proves the Kenny is a good guy, and he's loyal aswell.
I saved Jane, and i regret only that she didn't go to Wellington
Jane is better than Kenny, cause Jane knows how to survive and isn't broken like Kenny
TeamJane xD
Soooooooo we're just ignoring the fact Arvo puts a round in Clem's shoulder for no damn reason whatsoever then? Okay cool. Not a bad guy at all. Hahaha. I never robbed that dork, offered him rum and was nice to him every chance I could get -- because I understood. And he still shoots Clem. So, yeah, Arvo's a dick. If people use the rationale that Kenny shouldn't be so crazy because he's lost people . . . shouldn't that apply to Arvo too? Or because he's semi-kidnapped it's different? I just feel there are too many exceptions and blind eyes toward other characters' faults compared to Kenny's. Kenny is the simplest of all these characters; He's emotional, near broken and gets angry quickly. Period. He has no ulterior motives beyond caring for AJ and Clem. He's pure -- if just a bit bloodied from Carver's face flying everywhere. =D
I dont think he was a terrrible person. He was a kid who was in a group of adults who more or less told him what to do. He tried to barter f… moreor his life with the only thing he had, a place to go that had food. It wasnt pointless. Everything he promised was there. Yeah, the house was half built and there were only two bags of food, but it was better than nothing. And what happened to Luke was a horrible accident. I dont think thats what Arvo intended. I think he just wanted to get away from the guy who indicated in every way that he wanted to kill him. He already tried a couple of times at that point. Anyone would have done the same thing.
As for what Jane did, she herself admitted that it was a bad idea and that she didn't believe Kenny would go as far as he did. I'm not condoning it but I think we saw enough of Kenny, in this episode alone, and the other's reactions to him, particularly Mike's, to see that he was escalating. He was scaring… [view original content]
Plus Arvo led his group to go after Clem's group for revenge, even if you did not steal from him. Its a miracle no one in the group got killed during that exchange. If someone would have died, I bet more people would be a lot more open to being rough with Arvo. Arvo is no better than the Stranger.
Soooooooo we're just ignoring the fact Arvo puts a round in Clem's shoulder for no damn reason whatsoever then? Okay cool. Not a bad guy at … moreall. Hahaha. I never robbed that dork, offered him rum and was nice to him every chance I could get -- because I understood. And he still shoots Clem. So, yeah, Arvo's a dick. If people use the rationale that Kenny shouldn't be so crazy because he's lost people . . . shouldn't that apply to Arvo too? Or because he's semi-kidnapped it's different? I just feel there are too many exceptions and blind eyes toward other characters' faults compared to Kenny's. Kenny is the simplest of all these characters; He's emotional, near broken and gets angry quickly. Period. He has no ulterior motives beyond caring for AJ and Clem. He's pure -- if just a bit bloodied from Carver's face flying everywhere. =D
Nope. If you let the timer run out, Jane rushes past Clem, charging Kenny (who's backing away) with the knife drawn. Sorry, there's no way I bought into Jane's Stranger/Campman 2.0 crap. She was wrong about the sugar crystals in the bottle, just like she was wrong about Kenny. Except in my play through there was no "sister" around to save her. Maybe she shouldn't have left her real one to die.
I think Jane probably pushed Clem out of the way, because she feared that Kenny would jump at her again - either that or she didn't want to … morebe seen to "use" Clem as a shield.
And yeah - when Jane said to trust her, I did. I knew she hadn't lost the baby, and that was also why I tried to stop Kenny doing what he wanted to do, since I trusted Jane to do what was right - which she did.
Only difference is that I was smiling all over when I got to shoot Kenny, but other than that - I hear ya
Kenny has a MUCH shorter temper then Lee does and lashes out with far less provocation. It's perfectly in character for him to be more interested in vengeance rather then making sure that there was no chance that AJ was alive before attacking Jane.
Also, it's more reasonable to think that Clem could still be alive since she can actually move on her own. If you lose a baby that baby isn't going anywhere. If you lose a baby when walkers are nearby, that baby is dead. It's very reasonable to think AJ was dead. I personally thought the baby was dead, not abandoned, DEAD, and I wasn't much interested in looking around to prove it. Not that it would change my opinion of her, even if he was alive.
I think it's a much better example to see it like in Episode 4 where Ben abandoned Clem but instead of shovel man saving her, walkers got her instead. Then you get the choice "forgive" or "kill" Ben. I'd pick kill, just like I did for Lilly after she killed Carley.
I do get that. Still I must say that instead of coming back in and attacking (like Kenny did) Lee would not return till he had found Clem (d… moreead or alive) or he was simply too tired/hurt to continue. And had Kenny done thi, he would eventually have found AJ alive and healthy.
And even if you don't buy that, Lee would have questioned Ben for every detail, in order to optimize his search, at the very least his first reaction would not be one of violence (more likely he'd look inward and blame himself for leaving the car)
Kenny has a MUCH shorter temper then Lee does and lashes out with far less provocation. It's perfectly in character for him to be more interested in vengeance rather then making sure that there was no chance that AJ was alive before attacking Jane.
Precisely! I'm not saying it isn't in keeping with Kenny's horrible character, it is. I'm just saying that trying to garner sympathy by flipping the characters involved doesn't make any sense, because the scenario would play out very differently depending who is faced with the choice.
I'm rather surprised that anyone actually thought Jane had killed the baby. If she wanted to kill the baby then just throw it underneath the car after you get out - plus she tells Clem to trust her. Jane isn't an idiot, she would know that killing the baby would be abhorrent to Clem, and as Clem is her path to redeem herself for abandoning her sister, there's no way she would kill the baby.
Kenny has a MUCH shorter temper then Lee does and lashes out with far less provocation. It's perfectly in character for him to be more inter… moreested in vengeance rather then making sure that there was no chance that AJ was alive before attacking Jane.
Also, it's more reasonable to think that Clem could still be alive since she can actually move on her own. If you lose a baby that baby isn't going anywhere. If you lose a baby when walkers are nearby, that baby is dead. It's very reasonable to think AJ was dead. I personally thought the baby was dead, not abandoned, DEAD, and I wasn't much interested in looking around to prove it. Not that it would change my opinion of her, even if he was alive.
I think it's a much better example to see it like in Episode 4 where Ben abandoned Clem but instead of shovel man saving her, walkers got her instead. Then you get the choice "forgive" or "kill" Ben. I'd pick kill, just like I did for Lilly after she killed Carley.
Think about it, Jane wanted to show Clem, What Kenny was like. She defended herself at first, But how many times do you have to get hit, Before you say, I have to kil this person or else I'm going to die.
Aright, I've thought long and hard on this situation and I came to this conclusion.
**Jane was trying to kill Kenny too. **
Her origin… moreal goal was to show Kenny was crazy and, honestly, I was buying into it when the fight happened. I was trying very hard to stop him. I liked both Jane and Kenny and didn't want them to fight. However, later on, I asked myself why Jane having abandoned the baby didn't bother me.
In retrospect, it was the same sort of situation as Ben abandoning Clementine to the walkers in episode 4. Now, suppose Clem died from walkers in that scene. What would I have done? Clearly, I would have had Lee shoot Ben, just like I had left Lilly to die after she killed Carley (the only reason I didn't kill her is because I didn't get the option so I picked the next best thing). However, I didn't give two figs about that baby so whether or not it died was of no consequence to me. So I focused instead on trying to stop Kenny. … [view original content]
Hitting and stabbing someone are two different things. When Kenny attacked Lee, he didn't pull out a weapon and use it. In fact, my Lee didn't defend himself at all. I was emotionally BROKEN from all the shit in episode three. Guess what though, Lee didn't die.
So, what was the point of this situation? Jane claims she wants Kenny to show his true self to Clem but what was her actual plan after making him think she had left the baby to die? The more I think about it the more I think that it was always her intention to kill or be killed by Kenny. If he had backed down after she had pulled out the knife the first time, then that really isn't enough to get the result she wanted. Her telling Clem to stay out of it, no matter what and her comment that she knew Kenny would kill her says to me that this was intended as a death match from the beginning. Her early lack of aggression was simply so that she could make it seem like Kenny was the aggressor.
She never tried to stop it. Never said the baby was alive. Some have said that wouldn't have been enough anyway, but if Kenny had kept attacking even though Jane had said he was alive, that is evidence that Kenny is too mentally deranged for Clem to stay with him. Her plan makes no frikken SENSE. What was this point that Jane was looking for that she felt was enough to prove Kenny's "true" nature?
Speculation: Is it possible that Jane always had intended to be killed by Kenny? What better way to prove that Kenny is too violent then to have him kill Jane? I really doubt that Jane was counting on Clem to kill Kenny for her, especially since she told Clem to stay out of it, no matter what.
Think about it, Jane wanted to show Clem, What Kenny was like. She defended herself at first, But how many times do you have to get hit, Before you say, I have to kil this person or else I'm going to die.
Jane tosses you out of the way and then sprints into Kenny swinging her knife if you try to tell her to run. You tell her to run and she says "Not gonna happen." And throws Clem aside and charges. Okay, everyone.
A teenager who gets his friends to steal a group of people's supplies even if a person who isn't there took a gun from him because he was pointing it at a little girl, a teenager who essentially causes the death of Luke, a teenager who shoots a little girl even if she is unarmed and agrees to go with them.
I admit I feel sorry for Arvo, but to say he's completely without fault is stupid.
She put the knife away, Then Kenny charged her. Maybe she would of stopped if he didn't go for her after that. Plus I think that she of rather died then told Kenny the baby was alive because then Kenny wouldn't let her be around Clem.
Hitting and stabbing someone are two different things. When Kenny attacked Lee, he didn't pull out a weapon and use it. In fact, my Lee didn… more't defend himself at all. I was emotionally BROKEN from all the shit in episode three. Guess what though, Lee didn't die.
So, what was the point of this situation? Jane claims she wants Kenny to show his true self to Clem but what was her actual plan after making him think she had left the baby to die? The more I think about it the more I think that it was always her intention to kill or be killed by Kenny. If he had backed down after she had pulled out the knife the first time, then that really isn't enough to get the result she wanted. Her telling Clem to stay out of it, no matter what and her comment that she knew Kenny would kill her says to me that this was intended as a death match from the beginning. Her early lack of aggression was simply so that she could make it seem like Kenny was the aggres… [view original content]
Plus I think that she of rather died then told Kenny the baby was alive because then Kenny wouldn't let her be around Clem.
So you're pretty much admitting that she would rather fight to the death rather than take a chance on her agenda not working. Yet somehow killing Kenny is the right thing to do? That is very unfair.
She put the knife away, Then Kenny charged her. Maybe she would of stopped if he didn't go for her after that. Plus I think that she of rather died then told Kenny the baby was alive because then Kenny wouldn't let her be around Clem.
I just didn't understand these two being your choices. They had built up Luke vs. Kenny since Chapter 2. Jane and Kenny had too similar of a… more worldview. They both trusted no one but Clementine. They were both prone to violence and downright insanity. They both had been morphed and jaded beyond repair from the apocalypse. The game asks you to pick between two characters with the Carver viewpoint of things.
Luke represented the other side of things. He still had his humanity. He still wanted to trust and protect people. He still tried to solve problems in ways other than violence. His weakness was that he wasn't as strong as the others and that this trust of people might get Clem and others into trouble. Not to mention his tendency to think more about less important things like having fun and fulfilling desires in a world where that's not too much of an option anymore. So both Kenny and Luke had their strengths and weaknesses and they were bo… [view original content]
She wanted to look after Clem. She wanted Kenny to go, She didn't trust him. She knew Clem wouldn't just leave him. I shot Kenny because he was the one trying to finish Jane off. If it was Jane trying to kill Kenny she would of died.
Plus I think that she of rather died then told Kenny the baby was alive because then Kenny wouldn't let her be around Clem.
So you'r… moree pretty much admitting that she would rather fight to the death rather than take a chance on her agenda not working. Yet somehow killing Kenny is the right thing to do? That is very unfair.
Well said. I don't see how anyone could just take Jane's word for it that the whole baby incident was just an "accident" based on what we kn… moreow about her character and what she has done in the past. And then the fact that she was seemingly not interested in explaining herself made it look even worse.
Comments
There is nothing in the title to hint that there is any conflict he just put those two names. It seems rather silly to report him over that.
For me,I'm just thinking it's time for Kenny to go,without him Mike & Bonnie wouldn't betray us,and it was him who insult Jane in the first place,do you remember the line when Kenny said I know exactly what you are. Nothing. Nobody cares about you, and you care about nobody but yourself. And that makes you nothing. he just pour gasoline on the spark.Hell,even Rebecca felt sorry after said that.
It seems that Rebecca rubbed off on Jane. Rebecca immediately dismissed Jane's grief as nothing special because she herself had lost her loved one - while harsh, Jane does the same thing by dismissing Kenny's losses. The point is that it's not a competition of misery. Everybody's lost someone by this point, and your loved ones' deaths should not be justification for your own insane behavior.
Which applies to both adults.
We don't really know this at all. I mean.. Jane didn't even try to properly explain herself. That was the point though. She was being vague and shady on purpose.
Behavior immediately following the death of a loved one is kind of different though. Especially when talking about the possibility of murder (which Jane was clearly heavily trying to push on Kenny).
You're right. But Kenny's still the one that starts it and Jane reacted. After being choked, the first (obviously defensive) slash and the sight of blood, the adrenaline set in. After that, it was on. Remember the best defense is a good offense. As long as Jane felt in danger, she was also defending herself. Of course, I guess that applies to Kenny too after you get between them.
There and then, I didn't see what Jane was doing as manipulation. I presumed she had lost the baby fighting off walkers or whatever.. Last time we saw her before the rest stop, she was in a pretty crappy situation, so it could have happened.
Not giving Jane any time to explain what has happened, Kenny violently attacks her. In my eyes, Kenny was the instigator of that fight, not Jane.
Also, Jane attempts to end the fight shedding her knife, and telling Kenny it was an accident, but again, Kenny ain't listening. I can understand him getting furious at her, but attacking her, without even knowing what has really taken place is a bit crazy.
I thought that these events showed Kennys clouded judgement and violent temper even more clearly than ever. Yes, Jane deliberately pushed Kennys buttons to make him snap, but I saw this as her trying to bring out what she knew was there: an obsessed violent man. Do I agree with what she did? Hell no, but I can understand why she would do it.
Now, I'll just say, that Im definitely not with "Team Jane" or "Team Kenny" or whatever. They both had their flaws (some big ones too lol), but I just acted on what I felt was right at the moment and what I thought would keep Clem safe.
I think Jane probably pushed Clem out of the way, because she feared that Kenny would jump at her again - either that or she didn't want to be seen to "use" Clem as a shield.
And yeah - when Jane said to trust her, I did. I knew she hadn't lost the baby, and that was also why I tried to stop Kenny doing what he wanted to do, since I trusted Jane to do what was right - which she did.
Only difference is that I was smiling all over when I got to shoot Kenny, but other than that - I hear ya
Thank you.
Everyone has their own reasons for trusting or mis-trusting Jane, My idea is to cease to consider any scenario the right scenario.
Yeah, Because Kenny is out of control. What I've been always trying to indicate while talking to you about Snow or Kenny, That there're two opinions and the two are very valid, You just have to pay much attention to the game. Me and Flog agreed that the Lee's dream sequence was actually a foreshadow of Kenny becoming Lilly 2.0, And that you're gonna have to be given a choice, Either to help Lilly 2.0 overcome their problems by sacrificing your new friend, Or to save your new friend, There's no right or wrong scenario.
It'd personally depend on you as a person to decide how to trust and for your own reasons. And that's has been Telltale's point all along, Who will you trust, Who will you become? There's no, Jane was right scenario or Kenny was right scenario.
I dont think he was a terrrible person. He was a kid who was in a group of adults who more or less told him what to do. He tried to barter for his life with the only thing he had, a place to go that had food. It wasnt pointless. Everything he promised was there. Yeah, the house was half built and there were only two bags of food, but it was better than nothing. And what happened to Luke was a horrible accident. I dont think thats what Arvo intended. I think he just wanted to get away from the guy who indicated in every way that he wanted to kill him. He already tried a couple of times at that point. Anyone would have done the same thing.
As for what Jane did, she herself admitted that it was a bad idea and that she didn't believe Kenny would go as far as he did. I'm not condoning it but I think we saw enough of Kenny, in this episode alone, and the other's reactions to him, particularly Mike's, to see that he was escalating. He was scaring everyone in the group. Eventually, based on his actions and attitude, I think we can see that Kenny wasn't just going to snap out of it and be a reasonable guy. I saw this Kenny all the way back in season 1 with the boat thing and he has just gotten worse. Both Kenny and Jane were kind of hardheaded and I really dont believe they could have worked together. Frankly, I was surprised he took her in the truck with him at all.
The thing that concerned me about Kenny with the baby, and maybe I was influenced by the comments I read on the board about people calling him Kenny's baby and Kenny needs the baby to keep his sanity and things like that, is that the baby was less a person and more an object for Kenny to focus on. His whole state of mind was tied to trying to keep the baby alive. Its not fair to make a baby responsible for a grown man's mental health. The whole thing with Kenny taking almost full responsibility for AJ just bothered because I felt Kenny was so unstable. Anyway, those are my thoughts on the subject. I really hope we can move on completely next season.
You might be right, if Jane did tell Kenny the baby was alive, he'll probably be like "You're just trying to save your own skin!" But she also can say where the Baby's whereabouts are so Kenny could check it out and see that wasn't lying. So, I guess that Jane would have to say AJ is alive and where he is at for Kenny to stop fighting. But she could have still easily said that when the fight cam to a pause for a second after Jane sliced Kenny. Also, if this is what would happened, Kenny would have realized he can't protect the people cares for anymore and would have ask Jane to take care of them. So you see, Kenny did not need to die, Jane could have just done that and everything would have been fine. If you don't believe, look at all the endings and what Kenny says to Clem. If you shoot him, he'll tell Clem she made the right choice. If you kill him after Jane dies, he'll just say do it, realizing he have gone coco. Also, if you leave Kenny, he'll be understanding and realize that Clem is right, he is too dangerous. He even tells you that at Wellington where he says he can't protect Clem and AJ, believing he is unable to. So if Jane done that, there will probably, PROBABLY, been no death. To be honest, maybe Jane did just wanted to show Clem Kenny's true colors and that it. But I felt like she got lost in the fight and it became all about death.
I agree Belan. I often find another helpful way to view the situation is to switch the characters out for different ones:
Kenny - Lee
Jane - Ben
AJ - Clem
Now. Suppose the old season 1 group gets separated, but the last thing Lee sees is Ben and Clem taking off in one direction with walkers everywhere. Ben runs into Lee later on at a safe point, where Lee asks him where the hell Clementine is. Cue usual Ben stammering and talking about how it was an accident. Ben is a known screw-up, and has abandoned Clementine once before.
Lee. Would. Flip. He would assume that once again, Ben just took off and left her behind. Or maybe accidentally removed a hatchet that was holding back a horde of walkers.
I found Kenny's reaction believable and justified. Jane has a reputation as a loner survivalist, and her being vague that AJ was lost in some kind of accident wouldn't have sounded convincing at all, just as Lee probably wouldn't have believed Ben at all either.
Except that Lee wouldn't have gone ape-shit on Ben - at least my Lee wouldn't have.
He would've waded out there till he found Clem and if she was dead, he would make damn sure she didn't become/remain a walker.
I think he would have. A thing consistent with all Lees is that he will threaten Ben and warn him that walkers will be the least of his concerns if he ever puts her in danger again. The only way to not threaten him with this is to simply not talk to him about Clem at all. Him showing up with no Clem at all stammering about how he's sorry and that it was an accident would set him off.
If Lee saw Ben about to harm Clementine in any way - then he would not have hesitated to crush him. But if Clem was missing (presumed dead), then you'd be hard pressed to hold him back. There'd be no point in attacking Ben - that would simply waste time.
Your Lee might have been different, but that's at least how mine would/should have reacted (I say should, because just cause that's the character I was imparting on him, there's no security that there would be any way of avoiding him acting "out of character" - as it were)
If Lee saw Ben about to harm Clementine in any way - then he would not have hesitated to crush him. But if Clem was missing (presumed dead), then you'd be hard pressed to hold him back. There'd be no point in attacking Ben - that would simply waste time.
Your Lee might have been different, but that's at least how mine would/should have reacted (I say should, because just cause that's the character I was imparting on him, there's no security that there would be any way of avoiding him acting "out of character" - as it were)
You're acting under the presumption that Clementine would be out there missing. This is the wrong thing to presume and not what I've been describing.. We're using the exact same scenario as Kenny-Jane where the baby is presumed to be dead by Kenny due to either malicious intent or negligence on the part of Jane. Not missing and probably dead. Dead dead.
In such a scenario, Lee would absolutely go apeshit on Ben. This is why Kenny's actions are justified.
I do get that. Still I must say that instead of coming back in and attacking (like Kenny did) Lee would not return till he had found Clem (dead or alive) or he was simply too tired/hurt to continue. And had Kenny done thi, he would eventually have found AJ alive and healthy.
And even if you don't buy that, Lee would have questioned Ben for every detail, in order to optimize his search, at the very least his first reaction would not be one of violence (more likely he'd look inward and blame himself for leaving the car)
People actually shot and killed Kenny based off an assumption that he'll go mad or become Carver or whatever. Yet they completely ignore the fact Jane abandoned the group, didn't try all that hard to save Sarah and instigated the entire ordeal that lead to her deserved death (in my game anyhow). Kenny ain't no saint but who the hell is in this game? I was, of course, rocked by my choice to "Look Away" but I believed it was completely justified when Ken and Clem arrived at Wellington . . . and even MORE justified when Kenny pleaded to let the kids stay. THAT's who Kenny is in my opinion -- so, in a way, Jane was actually correct. His true colors would show.
There haven't been too many of these "multi ending" games that I've walked away feeling completely satisfied with my choices. This was an exception and I can't wait for Season 3.
JANE IS THE BEST !
JANE IS THE BEST !
You dunno how? Allow me to explain my reasoning then: Firstly (and probably most importantly) I saw through Jane's ploy almost immediately. Obviously it didn't give you that option in game but I personally knew what was up. That was pretty much the nail in the coffin for me when It came to her. Though I liked Jane quite a lot she proved on a number of occasions to be only about herself. I disregard her liking of Clem only because I believe she saw herself in Clem so she felt compelled to stick around her. Meanwhile Kenny would literally walk into a herd of walkers to save somebody he cares for. How about when he shut Clementine up and took blame for the missing radio in episode 3? Jane would never do that. Took charge of Rebecca's pregnancy? Kenny. Had a consistent plan throughout the whole season? Kenny. Always admitted his wrongdoings and made efforts to change? Kenny. Selfless to an absolute fault? Kenny.
Kenny is simply emotional and unhinged. Not a monster. If you ask me I would say Jane is the type to become the next Carver; cold, calculating and way too in tune with a world gone to shit. In my opinion there is absolutely no way Kenny could become like Carver because he cares way too hard. So that is my rationale for allowing Jane to take that blade through the heart. Might not be a child-like decision to make but I'd like to think my Clementine has seen enough of this awful world to see through individuals at that point.
Besides all my hopes were confirmed when Kenny walked off in the sunrise, head high, knowing he'd rescued the only two people he cared about anymore.
Well said. I don't see how anyone could just take Jane's word for it that the whole baby incident was just an "accident" based on what we know about her character and what she has done in the past. And then the fact that she was seemingly not interested in explaining herself made it look even worse.
The message from that "Clementine wakes up" scene is to prove that no matter what a person have been through, they still care for people. Jane believes that being "alone" is best for herself.
It's a beet hesitant to say that Jane coming back to the group proved that she "cared" about the group. But she says that she shouldn't have came back in the beginning.
That proves the Kenny is a good guy, and he's loyal aswell.
TEAMKENNY!
Soooooooo we're just ignoring the fact Arvo puts a round in Clem's shoulder for no damn reason whatsoever then? Okay cool. Not a bad guy at all. Hahaha. I never robbed that dork, offered him rum and was nice to him every chance I could get -- because I understood. And he still shoots Clem. So, yeah, Arvo's a dick. If people use the rationale that Kenny shouldn't be so crazy because he's lost people . . . shouldn't that apply to Arvo too? Or because he's semi-kidnapped it's different? I just feel there are too many exceptions and blind eyes toward other characters' faults compared to Kenny's. Kenny is the simplest of all these characters; He's emotional, near broken and gets angry quickly. Period. He has no ulterior motives beyond caring for AJ and Clem. He's pure -- if just a bit bloodied from Carver's face flying everywhere. =D
Plus Arvo led his group to go after Clem's group for revenge, even if you did not steal from him. Its a miracle no one in the group got killed during that exchange. If someone would have died, I bet more people would be a lot more open to being rough with Arvo. Arvo is no better than the Stranger.
Nope. If you let the timer run out, Jane rushes past Clem, charging Kenny (who's backing away) with the knife drawn. Sorry, there's no way I bought into Jane's Stranger/Campman 2.0 crap. She was wrong about the sugar crystals in the bottle, just like she was wrong about Kenny. Except in my play through there was no "sister" around to save her. Maybe she shouldn't have left her real one to die.
Kenny has a MUCH shorter temper then Lee does and lashes out with far less provocation. It's perfectly in character for him to be more interested in vengeance rather then making sure that there was no chance that AJ was alive before attacking Jane.
Also, it's more reasonable to think that Clem could still be alive since she can actually move on her own. If you lose a baby that baby isn't going anywhere. If you lose a baby when walkers are nearby, that baby is dead. It's very reasonable to think AJ was dead. I personally thought the baby was dead, not abandoned, DEAD, and I wasn't much interested in looking around to prove it. Not that it would change my opinion of her, even if he was alive.
I think it's a much better example to see it like in Episode 4 where Ben abandoned Clem but instead of shovel man saving her, walkers got her instead. Then you get the choice "forgive" or "kill" Ben. I'd pick kill, just like I did for Lilly after she killed Carley.
Precisely! I'm not saying it isn't in keeping with Kenny's horrible character, it is. I'm just saying that trying to garner sympathy by flipping the characters involved doesn't make any sense, because the scenario would play out very differently depending who is faced with the choice.
I'm rather surprised that anyone actually thought Jane had killed the baby. If she wanted to kill the baby then just throw it underneath the car after you get out - plus she tells Clem to trust her. Jane isn't an idiot, she would know that killing the baby would be abhorrent to Clem, and as Clem is her path to redeem herself for abandoning her sister, there's no way she would kill the baby.
Think about it, Jane wanted to show Clem, What Kenny was like. She defended herself at first, But how many times do you have to get hit, Before you say, I have to kil this person or else I'm going to die.
Hitting and stabbing someone are two different things. When Kenny attacked Lee, he didn't pull out a weapon and use it. In fact, my Lee didn't defend himself at all. I was emotionally BROKEN from all the shit in episode three. Guess what though, Lee didn't die.
So, what was the point of this situation? Jane claims she wants Kenny to show his true self to Clem but what was her actual plan after making him think she had left the baby to die? The more I think about it the more I think that it was always her intention to kill or be killed by Kenny. If he had backed down after she had pulled out the knife the first time, then that really isn't enough to get the result she wanted. Her telling Clem to stay out of it, no matter what and her comment that she knew Kenny would kill her says to me that this was intended as a death match from the beginning. Her early lack of aggression was simply so that she could make it seem like Kenny was the aggressor.
She never tried to stop it. Never said the baby was alive. Some have said that wouldn't have been enough anyway, but if Kenny had kept attacking even though Jane had said he was alive, that is evidence that Kenny is too mentally deranged for Clem to stay with him. Her plan makes no frikken SENSE. What was this point that Jane was looking for that she felt was enough to prove Kenny's "true" nature?
Speculation: Is it possible that Jane always had intended to be killed by Kenny? What better way to prove that Kenny is too violent then to have him kill Jane? I really doubt that Jane was counting on Clem to kill Kenny for her, especially since she told Clem to stay out of it, no matter what.
Jane tosses you out of the way and then sprints into Kenny swinging her knife if you try to tell her to run. You tell her to run and she says "Not gonna happen." And throws Clem aside and charges. Okay, everyone.
A teenager who gets his friends to steal a group of people's supplies even if a person who isn't there took a gun from him because he was pointing it at a little girl, a teenager who essentially causes the death of Luke, a teenager who shoots a little girl even if she is unarmed and agrees to go with them.
I admit I feel sorry for Arvo, but to say he's completely without fault is stupid.
She put the knife away, Then Kenny charged her. Maybe she would of stopped if he didn't go for her after that. Plus I think that she of rather died then told Kenny the baby was alive because then Kenny wouldn't let her be around Clem.
So you're pretty much admitting that she would rather fight to the death rather than take a chance on her agenda not working. Yet somehow killing Kenny is the right thing to do? That is very unfair.
I'm not really unhappy with that, actually. Everybody saw Luke vs Kenny coming so it was actually surprising. I honestly liked it.
I was referring to how Kenny caused Mike, Bonnie and Arvo leave, not about right before the fight
She wanted to look after Clem. She wanted Kenny to go, She didn't trust him. She knew Clem wouldn't just leave him. I shot Kenny because he was the one trying to finish Jane off. If it was Jane trying to kill Kenny she would of died.
I wish everyone in the community would read these 3 comments!