She's been known to kill zombies with her knife before.
And both Kenny and Clem have just been through the same Blizzard without experiencing any whiteout.
And even then, temporarely loosing her eyesight, she would have felt the baby dropping. Every person with an ounce of compassion would have stopped right there, trying to pick it back up. Not to mention babies tend to cry in situations like these, making them easier to find.
The list of possible scenarios in which the baby could have just vanished without a trace and Jane would have had no means to save it is just really really short. Arguably too short for a broken man who she has previously tried her best to piss off.
There were very good reasons not to believe her accident story (and the events proved that gut feeling right)
Blizzard - whiteout conditions. You can't defend against what you can't see. Sure Clem shot a couple but if you're paying attention you real… moreize that Jane's holster is empty and you really have no idea how many are actually out there.
The only reason you can't think of any reasons is because you're not trying.
You're wasting your time man. Kenny haters will believe whatever they want to, no matter the logic against them.
All good points by the way. There really is no plausible way that she could have accidentally gotten the baby killed. Its not impossible I suppose, but it was a highly suspect story and she did nothing to explain her actions even though she could have done so at any time (yes Kenny haters, even after the fact of Kenny becoming violent).
Jane only said it was an "accident" to keep Clem on her side while continuing to bait Kenny into a fight.
Name the kind of accident that would make Jane (a person known for her competence and cool under fire) loose a 5kg baby while walking around… more among a small number of frozen, mostly harmless zombies?
Dropped it? You'd notice. Babys don't just poof away.
Got attacked by walkers? Then why isn't she hurt?
Baby froze to death? Then why not bring it with you to try warming it up, or at least giving it a burial or whatever.
Name one plausible scenario. There isn't one. Even if it was an accident, she clearly did the minimum amount to save the baby and just dropped it/left it to die. Else she wouldn't be here completely unscathed without it.
I never said he didn't shove her (though shove often implies violent intent). I'm only saying that he didn't shove her to the ground. Watch the video I provided. He never shoved her to the ground. He just pushed her arm out of the way so he could get to Jane.
He shoved her.
Taking your arms, extending them towards someone, and then thrusting said arms toward a direction away from yourself is shoving. He shoved her. She actually hit the ground as well.
When Kenny was about to stab Jane, the only right thing to do for me was to pull the trigger.
Even though she instigated the fight and then tried to kill him once he responded violently? At the point that Kenny kills Jane he was fighting for his life.
I guess it depends on if you could tell that she was trying to manipulate Kenny or not. At the point that she tells Clem that she was about to see Kenny for what he "really is", I knew she had manipulated him.
When Kenny was about to stab Jane, the only right thing to do for me was to pull the trigger.
After finding out about Jane's "plot", I wa… mores pretty pissed, but ditching Jane would have more or less equaled suicide, so I went with her. I kind of did get her intentions of "showing what Kenny was capable of", I constantly had a feeling that Kenny really was a timebomb just waiting to blow. Through the entire second season you can just tell that Kenny was quite unstable. Never willing to compromise, always so snappy and short-tempered.. You cant blame him, after everything he's been through. I really wanted to stay loyal to him, but I just couldnt agree with the way he was doing things.
Also, I just couldn't help but feel that Kenny thought of AJ as somekind of a replacement for Duck.. He just needed somebody to take care of, because he didn't really care about himself anymore. And Im pretty sure he would have been willing to do some crazy st… [view original content]
Really? Anyone questions Kenny's integrity and it's baseless in spite of his stubborn refusal to listen to anyone throughout the entire series along with his demonstrated violent streak but Jane is assumed to be guilty no matter what? That's completely biased and irrational. Have you ever tried to reason with somebody during a fight? It's damn near impossible if you're not some silver-tongued master orator. I've been there.
Stop acting like you're some arbiter of pure reason. You're not. You're just too blind to see your own biases.
You're wasting your time man. Kenny haters will believe whatever they want to, no matter the logic against them.
All good points by the w… moreay. There really is no plausible way that she could have accidentally gotten the baby killed. Its not impossible I suppose, but it was a highly suspect story and she did nothing to explain her actions even though she could have done so at any time (yes Kenny haters, even after the fact of Kenny becoming violent).
Jane only said it was an "accident" to keep Clem on her side while continuing to bait Kenny into a fight.
Jane definitely did not stay on the defensive. If anything, it was the other way around.
After Kenny had Jane pinned against the wall (very similar to his issue with Mike in Episode Three), I managed to seperate them. Jane responded by taking the opportunity to smash her fist into Kenny's bad eye, knocking him to the ground. She then jumped on him and attempted to land a ton of blows to his face area, but he was able to block them. After pulling her off of Kenny, she immediately got a lethal weapon in hand (her knife) and slashed Kenny's stomach after he had gotten up and walked towards her. After slashing him she charged him once he had retreated outside. She then walked towards him with knife in hand while he slowly tried to distance himself. She then lunged and tried to slash him with her knife. Kenny dodged the slash, and then Jane followed it up with a stab. Kenny dodges the stab as well, and then caught her arm and threw her to the ground, bringing himself down in the process. Kenny thought about then picking up the knife, but Jane jumped on his back from behind and started gouging out his bad eye. Kenny was yelling in pain at this point and asking for help, but Jane refused to stop. After Clementine pulls Jane off, Kenny grabbed the knife and stabbed Jane in the leg. He crawled on top of her... and the rest is left up to the player.
Also, if you try to stop Jane from advancing on Kenny with the knife..
Note that Clem is telling Kenny to run away from Jane..
I viewed Kenny as the agressor. Jane claimed it was "an accident", although she chose not to leave. However, Kenny attacked Jane and had the… more knife against her chest, ready to kill her. Jane stayed on the defensive the whole time (probably on purpose) and Kenny's the one who keep charging.
Nobody is defending Kennys integrity. Guy's way over the edge at this point. But everyone knows that. Yet Jane keeps pushing him for no good reason.
But that's besides the point. It's not about Kenny but about wether Janes story is initially plausible to a completely devastated Kenny (and the observing player). And it is not. She told us minutes ago that she sees the baby as a liability and then after people have been carrying that baby through gunfights and over frozen lakes and through god knows what else, the second she gets her hands on it its gone?
Not fucking likely.
Is there a slim chance that she's saying the truth? Absolutely! Is it likely, given what we know about her abilities (to keep herself and her stuff safe) and motives? Hell no.
You say I'm trying to be an arbiter of "pure reason" here, but that's what you are You're trying to paint this as some calm situation in which the protagonists can just all take a step back, collect all the evidence and then carefully weigh in wether or not her story is plausible. It is not.
You have a guy hanging to sanity by a thread, who just learned that a girl, which has made it very clear she sees the baby as a liability, has - oops - lost it in a snowstorm by "accident".
Fat chance.
Given the circumstances he has every reason not to believe her (a fact she was actually banking on herself, in order to start the fight)
Really? Anyone questions Kenny's integrity and it's baseless in spite of his stubborn refusal to listen to anyone throughout the entire seri… morees along with his demonstrated violent streak but Jane is assumed to be guilty no matter what? That's completely biased and irrational. Have you ever tried to reason with somebody during a fight? It's damn near impossible if you're not some silver-tongued master orator. I've been there.
Stop acting like you're some arbiter of pure reason. You're not. You're just too blind to see your own biases.
I wasn't referring to you as portraying yourself as the arbiter of pure reason - that mock title goes to Belan.
She had a very good reason for bringing the worst out in Kenny - it was going to come out eventually, better to deal with it on her terms rather than his. I'd rather confront the beast while I know it's coming rather than have it rear up on me when I least expect it.
The conflict needed to end - forcing Kenny to reveal his true colors was the only way to do that.
Nobody is defending Kennys integrity. Guy's way over the edge at this point. But everyone knows that. Yet Jane keeps pushing him for no good… more reason.
But that's besides the point. It's not about Kenny but about wether Janes story is initially plausible to a completely devastated Kenny (and the observing player). And it is not. She told us minutes ago that she sees the baby as a liability and then after people have been carrying that baby through gunfights and over frozen lakes and through god knows what else, the second she gets her hands on it its gone?
Not fucking likely.
Is there a slim chance that she's saying the truth? Absolutely! Is it likely, given what we know about her abilities (to keep herself and her stuff safe) and motives? Hell no.
You say I'm trying to be an arbiter of "pure reason" here, but that's what you are You're trying to paint this as some calm situation in which the protagonists can just all take a step back… [view original content]
I agree, Kenny was obstinate midst the vehement clash that led to one another's death or both of them at all. In my first playthrough I shot Kenny because I thought he was distinctly going to kill us all. I don't think this thoughtlessness could work in an apocalypse. Sure, it's an apocalypse at all but snapping out in an insane way that worsens the situation so much that it potentially, or does really become fatal is unacceptable in my book.
Jane- " I didn't kill him it was an accident, Kenny! I won't back down from you, Kenny."
Kenny -"Shut up."
Clem- "Kenny, let her talk."
K… moreenny "I'm done talking, Clem."
Jane: sheathing her knife "Don't you come near me, you son of a bitch."
Kenny attacks
Where exactly was he willing to listen? Where did she get an opportunity to explain herself? As Kenny said - He was done talking. There was nothing she could say to him that would satiate his blood lust.
I'm not so sure about that "true colours" argument. It's not like Kenny was making a secret out of it.
Most everyone would be unstable after what he's been through, but he's clearly been trying to keep his shit together. Why keep poking the hornets nest any further?
Trying to push him over the edge completely just to get a chance to "preventively" kill him is an incredibly cynical thing to do, and I'd rather take my chance with Kenny (a guy who might snap but is trying hard not to and has shown on multiple occasions that he genuinely cares about the group) than with somebody who is willing to methodically drive another person insane with grief just to remove a possible liability.
I wasn't referring to you as portraying yourself as the arbiter of pure reason - that mock title goes to Belan.
She had a very good reaso… moren for bringing the worst out in Kenny - it was going to come out eventually, better to deal with it on her terms rather than his. I'd rather confront the beast while I know it's coming rather than have it rear up on me when I least expect it.
The conflict needed to end - forcing Kenny to reveal his true colors was the only way to do that.
Kenny is not a guy who "might" snap. Kenny is a guy who WILL snap. He has on more than one occasion - violently. He drove everyone away with his erratic and threatening behavior. The only reason Mike and Bonnie abandoned the group was because they feared Kenny - and rightly so. Kenny didn't like Jane from the start and treated her like trash from the start. I'd rather be with the person who can calmly assess a threat and deal with it head on rather than somebody who is too stubborn to listen to anyone, threatens people at the drop of a hat, beats defenseless teenagers, and attempts to control every situation. He was a constant looming threat that needed to be dealt with.
I'm not so sure about that "true colours" argument. It's not like Kenny was making a secret out of it.
Most everyone would be unstable afte… morer what he's been through, but he's clearly been trying to keep his shit together. Why keep poking the hornets nest any further?
Trying to push him over the edge completely just to get a chance to "preventively" kill him is an incredibly cynical thing to do, and I'd rather take my chance with Kenny (a guy who might snap but is trying hard not to and has shown on multiple occasions that he genuinely cares about the group) than with somebody who is willing to methodically drive another person insane with grief just to remove a possible liability.
I saved Jane, and i regret only that she didn't go to Wellington
Jane is better than Kenny, cause Jane knows how to survive and isn't broken like Kenny
TeamJane xD
When Clem leaves Jane behind she says:"Clem I did this for you...I can't do this alone.Is that what you wanted to hear?!"
I cannot believe I got played like that...She was nitpicking Kenny's dead family and her dead girlfriend Sarita even though Jane said that Rebecca had no "right" to talk about her dead sibling...And then she tries to proof to an 11 year old how Kenny truly is!!
I never said he didn't shove her (though shove often implies violent intent). I'm only saying that he didn't shove her to the ground. Watch … morethe video I provided. He never shoved her to the ground. He just pushed her arm out of the way so he could get to Jane.
More like a traumatized dog subject to violent outbursts, but the owner's daughter knew what triggered him and that she could help him to get better in time. But there was this shitty neighbour lady who had already decided the dog needed to be put down, so one day she jumps over the fence and take the dog's cub and hides it, causing the dog to get mad and attack her.
Thats right. I'd shoot him again and he admits it before dying that he let everyone down. He was insane. I see it no more evil than putting down a rabid dog.
This is my main issue with the argument. We had totally different experiences of the characters based on our choices. I both tried to keep Kenny calm but I also disagreed with him on many points causing him to be more hostile to my Clem and more hostile to Jane. What people saw as manipulation from Jane I saw as her articulating things that I was already thinking myself. I didn't shoot Kenny because he was a bad guy. I didn't shoot him because I hated him. I shot him because my choices made him more hostile to me. In getting to know Jane I interpreted her action before it was made explicit - I saw that she didn't kill the child/the child didn't die because if she got emotional killing a man who was shooting at people she grew to care about (Clem and Luke) she would have been distraught about the baby regardless of whether or not she didn't like it (I interpreted it more as discomfort because the baby made me nervous as well.) I couldn't let Kenny kill Jane because I understood what she was doing and I understood that Kenny was not justified in trying to kill her.
a rabid dog
Not a great comparison.
More like a traumatized dog subject to violent outbursts, but the owner's daughter knew what … moretriggered him and that she could help him to get better in time. But there was this shitty neighbour lady who had already decided the dog needed to be put down, so one day she jumps over the fence and take the dog's cub and hides it, causing the dog to get mad and attack her.
Kenny wasn't trying to kill Jane up until she tried to kill him. He was violent, but he was not trying to kill her. If you understand what Jane was doing, you would understand she was manipulating Kenny into a fight. There is no other reason for doing what she did. Even before Kenny came back into the shelter, Jane says: "You're going to see him for what he really is". She was intending to have Kenny flip out. What she did was pretty sick and twisted.
This is my main issue with the argument. We had totally different experiences of the characters based on our choices. I both tried to keep K… moreenny calm but I also disagreed with him on many points causing him to be more hostile to my Clem and more hostile to Jane. What people saw as manipulation from Jane I saw as her articulating things that I was already thinking myself. I didn't shoot Kenny because he was a bad guy. I didn't shoot him because I hated him. I shot him because my choices made him more hostile to me. In getting to know Jane I interpreted her action before it was made explicit - I saw that she didn't kill the child/the child didn't die because if she got emotional killing a man who was shooting at people she grew to care about (Clem and Luke) she would have been distraught about the baby regardless of whether or not she didn't like it (I interpreted it more as discomfort because the baby made me nervous as well.) I couldn't let K… [view original content]
This is my main issue with the argument. We had totally different experiences of the characters based on our choices. I both tried to keep K… moreenny calm but I also disagreed with him on many points causing him to be more hostile to my Clem and more hostile to Jane. What people saw as manipulation from Jane I saw as her articulating things that I was already thinking myself. I didn't shoot Kenny because he was a bad guy. I didn't shoot him because I hated him. I shot him because my choices made him more hostile to me. In getting to know Jane I interpreted her action before it was made explicit - I saw that she didn't kill the child/the child didn't die because if she got emotional killing a man who was shooting at people she grew to care about (Clem and Luke) she would have been distraught about the baby regardless of whether or not she didn't like it (I interpreted it more as discomfort because the baby made me nervous as well.) I couldn't let K… [view original content]
Really? Anyone questions Kenny's integrity and it's baseless, in spite of his stubborn refusal to listen to anyone throughout the entire series along with his demonstrated violent streak, but Jane is assumed to be guilty no matter what? That's completely biased and irrational.
I'll add some punctuation for you in the quote... because that was really hard to follow at first. Either way its like the longest run on sentence ever, but what can ya do.
No, Jane should not be assumed guilty no matter what. I have never said or implied that. Please do not put words in my mouth.
It's damn near impossible if you're not some silver-tongued master orator. I've been there.
So that means she should not have done anything to try and explain what happened? That doesn't make any sense. She was intentionally being vague. If she elaborated on the accident it would have been counter productive to her agenda of getting Kenny to flip out on her.
Even after Kenny retreats outside after getting slashed across the stomach, Jane charges after him with knife in hand. She wasn't trying to defuse the situation.
Stop acting like you're some arbiter of pure reason. You're not. You're just too blind to see your own biases.
Until you do a good job of pointing out said biases, that means pretty much nothing.
Really? Anyone questions Kenny's integrity and it's baseless in spite of his stubborn refusal to listen to anyone throughout the entire seri… morees along with his demonstrated violent streak but Jane is assumed to be guilty no matter what? That's completely biased and irrational. Have you ever tried to reason with somebody during a fight? It's damn near impossible if you're not some silver-tongued master orator. I've been there.
Stop acting like you're some arbiter of pure reason. You're not. You're just too blind to see your own biases.
She did manipulate him and it proved her point that Kenny has reached a point where he is too dangerous to be around.
She witnessed him brutally kill Carver - Carver deserved to die, sure, but Kenny did it in such a brutal fashion and he felt no remorse for it. He displayed incredible mental instability where he could be set off at any moment. He brutalized Arvo who had just lost his family and couldn't understand what Kenny was saying. If I didn't intervene he would have probably killed Arvo. Then when the group decided against his plan he flipped out with a complete disregard for everyone - he was not a team player, never has been.
All of his behavior leading to that point demonstrated that he was violent and mentally unstable. He was dangerous to be around. There is no way in hell without Mike and Bonnie backing up Jane and Clem that he would ever listen to them for any reason - he'd probably end up using his usual threatening demeanor to coerce them into following him.
He was a threat that needed to be confronted. You say it's sick and twisted, I think it was the smart play. Confront him on her terms and he did exactly what was expected - he tried to murder her without even considering the idea that she might be innocent. He didn't care if she was innocent. He just wanted to kill her. He didn't deserve to die, but he needed to die.
Kenny wasn't trying to kill Jane up until she tried to kill him. He was violent, but he was not trying to kill her. If you understand what J… moreane was doing, you would understand she was manipulating Kenny into a fight. There is no other reason for doing what she did. Even before Kenny came back into the shelter, Jane says: "You're going to see him for what he really is". She was intending to have Kenny flip out. What she did was pretty sick and twisted.
It didn't matter that I killed the child walker in the attic
Actually, to score "Kenny points" in this situation, one musn't kill the walker child for him but talk Kenny into doing it himself and give him the gun, so he finally does what he couldn't with Duck : put a poor zombie kid out of his misery.
If you do that the game tells you that "You helped Kenny", and next time you see Kenny he looks slightly better than if someone else did it for him.
That's also his biggest problem. He's only loyal when it's easy. It's always about what his plans are. Disagree with him and it's done. It d… moreidn't matter that I carried the burden of killing Duck for him. It didn't matter that I killed the child walker in the attic or that I defended Duck at the pharmacy. I didn't kill Larry or steal from the station-wagon and it was all over from there.
But the ability to discern right from wrong - unless you're some form of hardcore deontology fan - also comes from the conditions.
You could say that killing someone is worse than letting someone die. And that's probably a decent point.
But others could say that letting a one-eyed maniac kill a teenage/early-twenties girl, and then dragging an infant on a fool's errand to El Dorado is bad, and should be prevented.
You might be free from most blame if you simply stay out of it (as Jane told you to), but you surely aren't acting good.
If you interfere, then you are at least taking some responsibility.
No situation happens in a vacuum. The preceding conditions must always be taken into account.
Yes, but it shouldn't effect your abil… moreity to understand right from wrong. Jane was clearly in the wrong in the situation. You were simply taking advantage of the situation for your own purposes. Again, I don't think that makes you better than the man you're killing. If you're fine with that, then whatever. I just don't see any justification for your actions.
I wanted to reconcile the situation but when push came to shove I knew that it had to be him that had to go.
Push came to shove? Jane clearly maniuplated him.. and then tried to kill him. By your logic you should have killed them both.
You see Kenny as this noble guy because of your experience through your choices - it's a bias. The Kenny I experienced was less noble and more antagonistic.
He retreated because of the wound, not because he was looking to end the engagement. Kenny already articulated that he wasn't interested in talking. He said it twice. Kenny charged her first - after she disarmed and backed up. Not even Clementine could talk him down, do you think Jane could have?
Since when does being manipulated justify murder?
I'll ask the question again - have you ever tried to talk someone down during a fight? I have. It didn't end so well for me. There's a reason the term "blind rage" exists - because people who are enraged are so angry that they are blind to everything but their intent to harm. She told him that she didn't kill him. You say he doesn't have any reason to believe her. But he does have every reason to try to find out the circumstances first.
She didn't force his hand. He gave in to the rage that was boiling within - it was only a matter of time. She did what she needed to do to survive.
Really? Anyone questions Kenny's integrity and it's baseless, in spite of his stubborn refusal to listen to anyone throughout the entire ser… moreies along with his demonstrated violent streak, but Jane is assumed to be guilty no matter what? That's completely biased and irrational.
I'll add some punctuation for you in the quote... because that was really hard to follow at first. Either way its like the longest run on sentence ever, but what can ya do.
No, Jane should not be assumed guilty no matter what. I have never said or implied that. Please do not put words in my mouth.
It's damn near impossible if you're not some silver-tongued master orator. I've been there.
So that means she should not have done anything to try and explain what happened? That doesn't make any sense. She was intentionally being vague. If she elaborated on the accident it would have been counter productive to her agenda of getting Kenny to flip out o… [view original content]
Aright, I've thought long and hard on this situation and I came to this conclusion.
**Jane was trying to kill Kenny too. **
Her original goal was to show Kenny was crazy and, honestly, I was buying into it when the fight happened. I was trying very hard to stop him. I liked both Jane and Kenny and didn't want them to fight. However, later on, I asked myself why Jane having abandoned the baby didn't bother me.
In retrospect, it was the same sort of situation as Ben abandoning Clementine to the walkers in episode 4. Now, suppose Clem died from walkers in that scene. What would I have done? Clearly, I would have had Lee shoot Ben, just like I had left Lilly to die after she killed Carley (the only reason I didn't kill her is because I didn't get the option so I picked the next best thing). However, I didn't give two figs about that baby so whether or not it died was of no consequence to me. So I focused instead on trying to stop Kenny. Kenny, on the other hand, was having his own, "Ben left my kid to die" moment. So, yea, him attacking her makes perfect sense, he had an emotional investment in the kid that was far greater then that of any of us players. You need to think of it in the terms of Ben leaving Clem to die, and you should see that his attack was understandable.
What doesn't make sense is Jane. The plan was to show that Kenny was too unstable to be around. What actually happened was Jane LOST IT and got so involved in the fight that she was no longer following the plan. She went from trying to show Kenny was crazy to actively trying to kill him. Keep in mind that Jane also was the one that escalated the situation by pulling out her knife.
A fist fight is not necessarily to the death. I've seen Kenny mad like this before when he fought Lee on the train. During that particular time, I honestly didn't have the mental fortitude to fight back, so Kenny just beat the shit out of Lee until he broke down crying. The situation with Ben's ill timed confession was similar, Kenny immediately attacked. If he hadn't been held back he would have beat the crap out of Ben. Not sure he would have killed him like that though, although it's a possibility since he would have let Ben fall down the tower later on. Still, Kenny WAS able to see reason after Ben stood up for himself. Something Jane didn't really do.
When it was Carver, he used a weapon to kill. He's never killed a person with just his hands before. Fighting barehanded does have a certain implication that the fight isn't to the death and Clem is fully able to stop them from doing a finishing blow, as long as they don't have weapons. Maybe Kenny would have strangled her to death, maybe not, I don't know. What I DO know, though, is that the moment the knife was used, any chance of a peaceful resolution was over. Jane was fully into it by that point. Even so, until I found out that she had actually hid the baby, I was still willing to give her the benefit of the doubt. The fact that she DID provoke that fight has made me decide otherwise.
A thing no one asks is what would have happened if Jane was the one that was about to kill Kenny instead. Would she have stopped on her own? Or would she have plunged the knife into his chest, just like he did to her? I don't see any reason to doubt it, she wanted him dead. When you realize that the entire situation was set up by her in the first place and she was the one that needed to have a cooler head to show herself as being the one Clem should rely on, I started to rethink my decision on who needed to die.
Kenny had a bad side shown over a lot of this story. Personally, I wanted that Russian dead as well so him beating on him didn't bother me much. The glares he gave Clem, plus the fact that she killed his sister's zombie, marked him as being too dangerous to stay around. Kenny being nice or mean would not have changed this. Still, his actions did concern me and I had some severe thoughts about leaving him, so I can understand the worries others had on him, although taking all the food was a dick move, no matter how you slice it. That said, this fight? I'm going to side with Kenny killing her.
Besides, there is no way I was not going to Savanahm and you can only do that with Kenny alive. Myth or not, I wouldn't be able to live with myself never knowing if Crista got there too.
You see Kenny as this noble guy because of your experience through your choices - it's a bias. The Kenny I experienced was less noble and more antagonistic.
You're making that up yourself. I don't think I have even said a word about that when discussing this situation.
He retreated because of the wound, not because he was looking to end the engagement.
That isn't the point..
That was a perfect opportunity for Jane to personally cool things down. She doesn't though, because she wasn't interested in doing that. Instead she pursued him and aimed two kill shots(a slash and a stab with her knife) at him even though he was backing off. The point is, she was trying to escalate the situation, not diffuse it.
Not even Clementine could talk him down, do you think Jane could have?
Because Jane's words would have meant FAR more than anything Clem could say there. He needed an explanation and reasoning from Jane... not Clem.
Since when does being manipulated justify murder?
Oh I don't know. I guess killing someone's baby isn't all that bad of a thing.. right?
Seriously though, Kenny had a reason to be violent. And no, he was not trying to "murder" her until Jane escalated the situation by trying to kill him.
I'll ask the question again - have you ever tried to talk someone down during a fight? I have. It didn't end so well for me.
Yes. In fact, I was the one being attacked in the situation as well.
She told him that she didn't kill him. You say he doesn't have any reason to believe her. But he does have every reason to try to find out the circumstances first.
His baby supposedly just got killed, and Jane was being intentionally shady about it. You're not being realistic in thinking that he should not have flipped out. It was up to Jane to explain herself, but as we have been over, that would have been counter productive to what she was trying to accomplish.
She didn't force his hand. He gave in to the rage that was boiling within - it was only a matter of time. She did what she needed to do to survive.
She did what she needed to do to survive by intentionally starting a fight and getting someone killed? Funny thing is, she would have ended up safely in Wellington if not for her terrible, twisted idea. Her plan was stupid, and in many cases it got her killed.
You see Kenny as this noble guy because of your experience through your choices - it's a bias. The Kenny I experienced was less noble and mo… morere antagonistic.
He retreated because of the wound, not because he was looking to end the engagement. Kenny already articulated that he wasn't interested in talking. He said it twice. Kenny charged her first - after she disarmed and backed up. Not even Clementine could talk him down, do you think Jane could have?
Since when does being manipulated justify murder?
I'll ask the question again - have you ever tried to talk someone down during a fight? I have. It didn't end so well for me. There's a reason the term "blind rage" exists - because people who are enraged are so angry that they are blind to everything but their intent to harm. She told him that she didn't kill him. You say he doesn't have any reason to believe her. But he does have every reason to try to find out the circumstances first.
… [view original content]
You say that he was justified in trying to kill her - pretty it up all you want, he was out to kill her from the start.
I say he would have tried to kill her at some point based on his previous use of gratuitous violence and that she was justified in bringing the conflict to an end on her terms.
You see Kenny as this noble guy because of your experience through your choices - it's a bias. The Kenny I experienced was less noble and mo… morere antagonistic.
You're making that up yourself. I don't think I have even said a word about that when discussing this situation.
He retreated because of the wound, not because he was looking to end the engagement.
That isn't the point..
That was a perfect opportunity for Jane to personally cool things down. She doesn't though, because she wasn't interested in doing that. Instead she pursued him and aimed two kill shots(a slash and a stab with her knife) at him even though he was backing off. The point is, she was trying to escalate the situation, not diffuse it.
Not even Clementine could talk him down, do you think Jane could have?
Because Jane's words would have meant FAR more than anything Clem could say there. He needed an explanation and reasoning from Jane... n… [view original content]
Very well written. Thank you for taking the time to do that. These are my thoughts exactly.
A thing no one asks is what would have happened if Jane was the one that was about to kill Kenny instead. Would she have stopped on her own? Or would she have plunged the knife into his chest, just like he did to her? I don't see any reason to doubt it, she wanted him dead.
I agree. She had already stabbed and slashed at him several times with her knife. If any of those would have connected with him, he probably would have died. Her first slash was pretty close and drew blood, but it wasn't close enough to split him open.
Aright, I've thought long and hard on this situation and I came to this conclusion.
**Jane was trying to kill Kenny too. **
Her origin… moreal goal was to show Kenny was crazy and, honestly, I was buying into it when the fight happened. I was trying very hard to stop him. I liked both Jane and Kenny and didn't want them to fight. However, later on, I asked myself why Jane having abandoned the baby didn't bother me.
In retrospect, it was the same sort of situation as Ben abandoning Clementine to the walkers in episode 4. Now, suppose Clem died from walkers in that scene. What would I have done? Clearly, I would have had Lee shoot Ben, just like I had left Lilly to die after she killed Carley (the only reason I didn't kill her is because I didn't get the option so I picked the next best thing). However, I didn't give two figs about that baby so whether or not it died was of no consequence to me. So I focused instead on trying to stop Kenny. … [view original content]
I'm not a Kenny hater, I just don't see him doing the right thing in that episode. Jane pushed you out of the way because you were holding her back. I'd have done the exact same thing. She's almost 99% like me. She promised me that she will never abandon me again.
Also, Kenny's idea of respect bugged me.
Also, Jane's test to Kenny's patience was pretty predictable. I predicted it all along ever since she told me to trust her. Jane and My Clem are a perfect harmony. I almost cried when I had to shoot Kenny, We've been through a lot together.
You say that he was justified in trying to kill her - pretty it up all you want, he was out to kill her from the start.
Yeah... that isn't actually based on anything at all though. A fight doesn't necessarily = trying to kill someone.
I say he would have tried to kill her at some point based on his previous use of gratuitous violence and that she was justified in bringing the conflict to an end on her terms.
Just because he has been violent in his past that means he was trying to kill her? That doesn't seem very logical..
This is going nowhere.
You say that he was justified in trying to kill her - pretty it up all you want, he was out to kill her from the s… moretart.
I say he would have tried to kill her at some point based on his previous use of gratuitous violence and that she was justified in bringing the conflict to an end on her terms.
I'm not a Kenny hater, I just don't see him doing the right thing in that episode. Jane pushed you out of the way because you were holding h… moreer back. I'd have done the exact same thing. She's almost 99% like me. She promised me that she will never abandon me again.
Also, Kenny's idea of respect bugged me.
Also, Jane's test to Kenny's patience was pretty predictable. I predicted it all along ever since she told me to trust her. Jane and My Clem are a perfect harmony. I almost cried when I had to shoot Kenny, We've been through a lot together.
He has killed in the past. He would have killed Arvo had the others not been around to prevent it. It's not a stretch to say that he was trying to kill Jane. It doesn't seem very logical to ignore past patterns of behavior in assessing a persons current behavior.
This is going nowhere.
You could always just agree with me
You say that he was justified in trying to kill her - pretty it up… more all you want, he was out to kill her from the start.
Yeah... that isn't actually based on anything at all though. A fight doesn't necessarily = trying to kill someone.
I say he would have tried to kill her at some point based on his previous use of gratuitous violence and that she was justified in bringing the conflict to an end on her terms.
Just because he has been violent in his past that means he was trying to kill her? That doesn't seem very logical..
If you don't stand in her way, She will back down. Jane is as defensive as me as well, She doesn't like to be controlled or ruled, I believe she felt like she's on her own now, You and Kenny are against her. That's why she did it.
Jane pushed you out of the way because you were holding her back.
Yeah, that's the point I was trying to make when I showed that clip. She was trying to go after Kenny. She wasn't just trying to defend herself.
Comments
She's been known to kill zombies with her knife before.
And both Kenny and Clem have just been through the same Blizzard without experiencing any whiteout.
And even then, temporarely loosing her eyesight, she would have felt the baby dropping. Every person with an ounce of compassion would have stopped right there, trying to pick it back up. Not to mention babies tend to cry in situations like these, making them easier to find.
The list of possible scenarios in which the baby could have just vanished without a trace and Jane would have had no means to save it is just really really short. Arguably too short for a broken man who she has previously tried her best to piss off.
There were very good reasons not to believe her accident story (and the events proved that gut feeling right)
You're wasting your time man. Kenny haters will believe whatever they want to, no matter the logic against them.
All good points by the way. There really is no plausible way that she could have accidentally gotten the baby killed. Its not impossible I suppose, but it was a highly suspect story and she did nothing to explain her actions even though she could have done so at any time (yes Kenny haters, even after the fact of Kenny becoming violent).
Jane only said it was an "accident" to keep Clem on her side while continuing to bait Kenny into a fight.
I never said he didn't shove her (though shove often implies violent intent). I'm only saying that he didn't shove her to the ground. Watch the video I provided. He never shoved her to the ground. He just pushed her arm out of the way so he could get to Jane.
Even though she instigated the fight and then tried to kill him once he responded violently? At the point that Kenny kills Jane he was fighting for his life.
I guess it depends on if you could tell that she was trying to manipulate Kenny or not. At the point that she tells Clem that she was about to see Kenny for what he "really is", I knew she had manipulated him.
Really? Anyone questions Kenny's integrity and it's baseless in spite of his stubborn refusal to listen to anyone throughout the entire series along with his demonstrated violent streak but Jane is assumed to be guilty no matter what? That's completely biased and irrational. Have you ever tried to reason with somebody during a fight? It's damn near impossible if you're not some silver-tongued master orator. I've been there.
Stop acting like you're some arbiter of pure reason. You're not. You're just too blind to see your own biases.
Jane definitely did not stay on the defensive. If anything, it was the other way around.
After Kenny had Jane pinned against the wall (very similar to his issue with Mike in Episode Three), I managed to seperate them. Jane responded by taking the opportunity to smash her fist into Kenny's bad eye, knocking him to the ground. She then jumped on him and attempted to land a ton of blows to his face area, but he was able to block them. After pulling her off of Kenny, she immediately got a lethal weapon in hand (her knife) and slashed Kenny's stomach after he had gotten up and walked towards her. After slashing him she charged him once he had retreated outside. She then walked towards him with knife in hand while he slowly tried to distance himself. She then lunged and tried to slash him with her knife. Kenny dodged the slash, and then Jane followed it up with a stab. Kenny dodges the stab as well, and then caught her arm and threw her to the ground, bringing himself down in the process. Kenny thought about then picking up the knife, but Jane jumped on his back from behind and started gouging out his bad eye. Kenny was yelling in pain at this point and asking for help, but Jane refused to stop. After Clementine pulls Jane off, Kenny grabbed the knife and stabbed Jane in the leg. He crawled on top of her... and the rest is left up to the player.
Also, if you try to stop Jane from advancing on Kenny with the knife..
Note that Clem is telling Kenny to run away from Jane..
Nobody is defending Kennys integrity. Guy's way over the edge at this point. But everyone knows that. Yet Jane keeps pushing him for no good reason.
But that's besides the point. It's not about Kenny but about wether Janes story is initially plausible to a completely devastated Kenny (and the observing player). And it is not. She told us minutes ago that she sees the baby as a liability and then after people have been carrying that baby through gunfights and over frozen lakes and through god knows what else, the second she gets her hands on it its gone?
Not fucking likely.
Is there a slim chance that she's saying the truth? Absolutely! Is it likely, given what we know about her abilities (to keep herself and her stuff safe) and motives? Hell no.
You say I'm trying to be an arbiter of "pure reason" here, but that's what you are
You're trying to paint this as some calm situation in which the protagonists can just all take a step back, collect all the evidence and then carefully weigh in wether or not her story is plausible. It is not.
You have a guy hanging to sanity by a thread, who just learned that a girl, which has made it very clear she sees the baby as a liability, has - oops - lost it in a snowstorm by "accident".
Fat chance.
Given the circumstances he has every reason not to believe her (a fact she was actually banking on herself, in order to start the fight)
I wasn't referring to you as portraying yourself as the arbiter of pure reason - that mock title goes to Belan.
She had a very good reason for bringing the worst out in Kenny - it was going to come out eventually, better to deal with it on her terms rather than his. I'd rather confront the beast while I know it's coming rather than have it rear up on me when I least expect it.
The conflict needed to end - forcing Kenny to reveal his true colors was the only way to do that.
I agree, Kenny was obstinate midst the vehement clash that led to one another's death or both of them at all. In my first playthrough I shot Kenny because I thought he was distinctly going to kill us all. I don't think this thoughtlessness could work in an apocalypse. Sure, it's an apocalypse at all but snapping out in an insane way that worsens the situation so much that it potentially, or does really become fatal is unacceptable in my book.
I'm not so sure about that "true colours" argument. It's not like Kenny was making a secret out of it.
Most everyone would be unstable after what he's been through, but he's clearly been trying to keep his shit together. Why keep poking the hornets nest any further?
Trying to push him over the edge completely just to get a chance to "preventively" kill him is an incredibly cynical thing to do, and I'd rather take my chance with Kenny (a guy who might snap but is trying hard not to and has shown on multiple occasions that he genuinely cares about the group) than with somebody who is willing to methodically drive another person insane with grief just to remove a possible liability.
Kenny is not a guy who "might" snap. Kenny is a guy who WILL snap. He has on more than one occasion - violently. He drove everyone away with his erratic and threatening behavior. The only reason Mike and Bonnie abandoned the group was because they feared Kenny - and rightly so. Kenny didn't like Jane from the start and treated her like trash from the start. I'd rather be with the person who can calmly assess a threat and deal with it head on rather than somebody who is too stubborn to listen to anyone, threatens people at the drop of a hat, beats defenseless teenagers, and attempts to control every situation. He was a constant looming threat that needed to be dealt with.
Yeah, unlike Kenny who sucks at survival, that's why he died in the first days of the zombie apocalypse. Oh wait...
Unfortunately I had the alone path ending...
When Clem leaves Jane behind she says:"Clem I did this for you...I can't do this alone.Is that what you wanted to hear?!"
I cannot believe I got played like that...She was nitpicking Kenny's dead family and her dead girlfriend Sarita even though Jane said that Rebecca had no "right" to talk about her dead sibling...And then she tries to proof to an 11 year old how Kenny truly is!!
Thanks so much Jane.../heavy sarcasm
It doesn't show the scenario where Clem gets between them. That's the option I chose.
Not a great comparison.
More like a traumatized dog subject to violent outbursts, but the owner's daughter knew what triggered him and that she could help him to get better in time. But there was this shitty neighbour lady who had already decided the dog needed to be put down, so one day she jumps over the fence and take the dog's cub and hides it, causing the dog to get mad and attack her.
Ah, it happens when you get between them and try and restrain Kenny. He tosses you out of the way if you do that.
Never knew that.
This is my main issue with the argument. We had totally different experiences of the characters based on our choices. I both tried to keep Kenny calm but I also disagreed with him on many points causing him to be more hostile to my Clem and more hostile to Jane. What people saw as manipulation from Jane I saw as her articulating things that I was already thinking myself. I didn't shoot Kenny because he was a bad guy. I didn't shoot him because I hated him. I shot him because my choices made him more hostile to me. In getting to know Jane I interpreted her action before it was made explicit - I saw that she didn't kill the child/the child didn't die because if she got emotional killing a man who was shooting at people she grew to care about (Clem and Luke) she would have been distraught about the baby regardless of whether or not she didn't like it (I interpreted it more as discomfort because the baby made me nervous as well.) I couldn't let Kenny kill Jane because I understood what she was doing and I understood that Kenny was not justified in trying to kill her.
Boom..
Kenny wasn't trying to kill Jane up until she tried to kill him. He was violent, but he was not trying to kill her. If you understand what Jane was doing, you would understand she was manipulating Kenny into a fight. There is no other reason for doing what she did. Even before Kenny came back into the shelter, Jane says: "You're going to see him for what he really is". She was intending to have Kenny flip out. What she did was pretty sick and twisted.
If you go to block Jane instead of Kenny, she pushes you as well. It's not really a valid argument to show one being crazier then the other.
To be fair, he did have superhuman 'writer's favourite' powers (or something of that ilk at least)
I'll add some punctuation for you in the quote... because that was really hard to follow at first. Either way its like the longest run on sentence ever, but what can ya do.
No, Jane should not be assumed guilty no matter what. I have never said or implied that. Please do not put words in my mouth.
So that means she should not have done anything to try and explain what happened? That doesn't make any sense. She was intentionally being vague. If she elaborated on the accident it would have been counter productive to her agenda of getting Kenny to flip out on her.
Even after Kenny retreats outside after getting slashed across the stomach, Jane charges after him with knife in hand. She wasn't trying to defuse the situation.
Until you do a good job of pointing out said biases, that means pretty much nothing.
She did manipulate him and it proved her point that Kenny has reached a point where he is too dangerous to be around.
She witnessed him brutally kill Carver - Carver deserved to die, sure, but Kenny did it in such a brutal fashion and he felt no remorse for it. He displayed incredible mental instability where he could be set off at any moment. He brutalized Arvo who had just lost his family and couldn't understand what Kenny was saying. If I didn't intervene he would have probably killed Arvo. Then when the group decided against his plan he flipped out with a complete disregard for everyone - he was not a team player, never has been.
All of his behavior leading to that point demonstrated that he was violent and mentally unstable. He was dangerous to be around. There is no way in hell without Mike and Bonnie backing up Jane and Clem that he would ever listen to them for any reason - he'd probably end up using his usual threatening demeanor to coerce them into following him.
He was a threat that needed to be confronted. You say it's sick and twisted, I think it was the smart play. Confront him on her terms and he did exactly what was expected - he tried to murder her without even considering the idea that she might be innocent. He didn't care if she was innocent. He just wanted to kill her. He didn't deserve to die, but he needed to die.
Actually, to score "Kenny points" in this situation, one musn't kill the walker child for him but talk Kenny into doing it himself and give him the gun, so he finally does what he couldn't with Duck : put a poor zombie kid out of his misery.
If you do that the game tells you that "You helped Kenny", and next time you see Kenny he looks slightly better than if someone else did it for him.
But the ability to discern right from wrong - unless you're some form of hardcore deontology fan - also comes from the conditions.
You could say that killing someone is worse than letting someone die. And that's probably a decent point.
But others could say that letting a one-eyed maniac kill a teenage/early-twenties girl, and then dragging an infant on a fool's errand to El Dorado is bad, and should be prevented.
You might be free from most blame if you simply stay out of it (as Jane told you to), but you surely aren't acting good.
If you interfere, then you are at least taking some responsibility.
Not that clever, looking at the stupidity and recklessness of her "plan" to convince Clementine of Kenny's dangerousness.
Not mentioning the fact that leaving a baby in a car while there are walkers everywhere is not the brightest idea.
You see Kenny as this noble guy because of your experience through your choices - it's a bias. The Kenny I experienced was less noble and more antagonistic.
He retreated because of the wound, not because he was looking to end the engagement. Kenny already articulated that he wasn't interested in talking. He said it twice. Kenny charged her first - after she disarmed and backed up. Not even Clementine could talk him down, do you think Jane could have?
Since when does being manipulated justify murder?
I'll ask the question again - have you ever tried to talk someone down during a fight? I have. It didn't end so well for me. There's a reason the term "blind rage" exists - because people who are enraged are so angry that they are blind to everything but their intent to harm. She told him that she didn't kill him. You say he doesn't have any reason to believe her. But he does have every reason to try to find out the circumstances first.
She didn't force his hand. He gave in to the rage that was boiling within - it was only a matter of time. She did what she needed to do to survive.
That's not the point, he claimed Kenny never shoved Clem to the ground when he did.
Aright, I've thought long and hard on this situation and I came to this conclusion.
**Jane was trying to kill Kenny too. **
Her original goal was to show Kenny was crazy and, honestly, I was buying into it when the fight happened. I was trying very hard to stop him. I liked both Jane and Kenny and didn't want them to fight. However, later on, I asked myself why Jane having abandoned the baby didn't bother me.
In retrospect, it was the same sort of situation as Ben abandoning Clementine to the walkers in episode 4. Now, suppose Clem died from walkers in that scene. What would I have done? Clearly, I would have had Lee shoot Ben, just like I had left Lilly to die after she killed Carley (the only reason I didn't kill her is because I didn't get the option so I picked the next best thing). However, I didn't give two figs about that baby so whether or not it died was of no consequence to me. So I focused instead on trying to stop Kenny. Kenny, on the other hand, was having his own, "Ben left my kid to die" moment. So, yea, him attacking her makes perfect sense, he had an emotional investment in the kid that was far greater then that of any of us players. You need to think of it in the terms of Ben leaving Clem to die, and you should see that his attack was understandable.
What doesn't make sense is Jane. The plan was to show that Kenny was too unstable to be around. What actually happened was Jane LOST IT and got so involved in the fight that she was no longer following the plan. She went from trying to show Kenny was crazy to actively trying to kill him. Keep in mind that Jane also was the one that escalated the situation by pulling out her knife.
A fist fight is not necessarily to the death. I've seen Kenny mad like this before when he fought Lee on the train. During that particular time, I honestly didn't have the mental fortitude to fight back, so Kenny just beat the shit out of Lee until he broke down crying. The situation with Ben's ill timed confession was similar, Kenny immediately attacked. If he hadn't been held back he would have beat the crap out of Ben. Not sure he would have killed him like that though, although it's a possibility since he would have let Ben fall down the tower later on. Still, Kenny WAS able to see reason after Ben stood up for himself. Something Jane didn't really do.
When it was Carver, he used a weapon to kill. He's never killed a person with just his hands before. Fighting barehanded does have a certain implication that the fight isn't to the death and Clem is fully able to stop them from doing a finishing blow, as long as they don't have weapons. Maybe Kenny would have strangled her to death, maybe not, I don't know. What I DO know, though, is that the moment the knife was used, any chance of a peaceful resolution was over. Jane was fully into it by that point. Even so, until I found out that she had actually hid the baby, I was still willing to give her the benefit of the doubt. The fact that she DID provoke that fight has made me decide otherwise.
A thing no one asks is what would have happened if Jane was the one that was about to kill Kenny instead. Would she have stopped on her own? Or would she have plunged the knife into his chest, just like he did to her? I don't see any reason to doubt it, she wanted him dead. When you realize that the entire situation was set up by her in the first place and she was the one that needed to have a cooler head to show herself as being the one Clem should rely on, I started to rethink my decision on who needed to die.
Kenny had a bad side shown over a lot of this story. Personally, I wanted that Russian dead as well so him beating on him didn't bother me much. The glares he gave Clem, plus the fact that she killed his sister's zombie, marked him as being too dangerous to stay around. Kenny being nice or mean would not have changed this. Still, his actions did concern me and I had some severe thoughts about leaving him, so I can understand the worries others had on him, although taking all the food was a dick move, no matter how you slice it. That said, this fight? I'm going to side with Kenny killing her.
Besides, there is no way I was not going to Savanahm and you can only do that with Kenny alive. Myth or not, I wouldn't be able to live with myself never knowing if Crista got there too.
You're making that up yourself. I don't think I have even said a word about that when discussing this situation.
That isn't the point..
That was a perfect opportunity for Jane to personally cool things down. She doesn't though, because she wasn't interested in doing that. Instead she pursued him and aimed two kill shots(a slash and a stab with her knife) at him even though he was backing off. The point is, she was trying to escalate the situation, not diffuse it.
Because Jane's words would have meant FAR more than anything Clem could say there. He needed an explanation and reasoning from Jane... not Clem.
Oh I don't know. I guess killing someone's baby isn't all that bad of a thing.. right?
Seriously though, Kenny had a reason to be violent. And no, he was not trying to "murder" her until Jane escalated the situation by trying to kill him.
Yes. In fact, I was the one being attacked in the situation as well.
His baby supposedly just got killed, and Jane was being intentionally shady about it. You're not being realistic in thinking that he should not have flipped out. It was up to Jane to explain herself, but as we have been over, that would have been counter productive to what she was trying to accomplish.
She did what she needed to do to survive by intentionally starting a fight and getting someone killed? Funny thing is, she would have ended up safely in Wellington if not for her terrible, twisted idea. Her plan was stupid, and in many cases it got her killed.
We can't just agree over even one thing , Can we?
This is going nowhere.
You say that he was justified in trying to kill her - pretty it up all you want, he was out to kill her from the start.
I say he would have tried to kill her at some point based on his previous use of gratuitous violence and that she was justified in bringing the conflict to an end on her terms.
Very well written. Thank you for taking the time to do that. These are my thoughts exactly.
I agree. She had already stabbed and slashed at him several times with her knife. If any of those would have connected with him, he probably would have died. Her first slash was pretty close and drew blood, but it wasn't close enough to split him open.
That's up to the Kenny haters 8)
I'm not a Kenny hater, I just don't see him doing the right thing in that episode. Jane pushed you out of the way because you were holding her back. I'd have done the exact same thing. She's almost 99% like me. She promised me that she will never abandon me again.
Also, Kenny's idea of respect bugged me.
Also, Jane's test to Kenny's patience was pretty predictable. I predicted it all along ever since she told me to trust her. Jane and My Clem are a perfect harmony. I almost cried when I had to shoot Kenny, We've been through a lot together.
You could always just agree with me
Yeah... that isn't actually based on anything at all though. A fight doesn't necessarily = trying to kill someone.
Just because he has been violent in his past that means he was trying to kill her? That doesn't seem very logical..
I got the ending where I go with Jane back to Carvers (I couldn't make the decision fast enough so the game did it for me), but I seriously regret it.
She faked a baby dying, got kenny killed, all to prove a POINT?! I swear, when I get the chance, Jane is getting a bullet in her face.
I am SO FREAKING PISSED at her, and I wish Kenny put that knife to her throat. Should have given him the chance.
Yeah, that's the point I was trying to make when I showed that clip. She was trying to go after Kenny. She wasn't just trying to defend herself.
He has killed in the past. He would have killed Arvo had the others not been around to prevent it. It's not a stretch to say that he was trying to kill Jane. It doesn't seem very logical to ignore past patterns of behavior in assessing a persons current behavior.
If you don't stand in her way, She will back down. Jane is as defensive as me as well, She doesn't like to be controlled or ruled, I believe she felt like she's on her own now, You and Kenny are against her. That's why she did it.