What are your feeling on abortion?
I feel it's wrong in all circumstances. If a woman suffers a miscarriage, then that's sadly one thing. But for a woman to kill her unborn baby all because it's an inconvenient time for her to be a mom, that's wrong!
And if her baby is the product of rape, while it is tragic that she went through that; something no person-period should ever have to go through, that still doesn't make having an abortion right.
The child couldn't help that it was conceived, nor the circumstances of its conception; which is true of every living person alive today. None of us could choose that we were conceived, nor the circumstances surrounding our conception, who or what our parents were, or how they raised us.
Therefore with that being said, that child doesn't deserve to pay for the heinous actions of its "father", but rather it is the male who for the crime who deserves to pay the price for what he did.
(I use the term male, because such a person doesn't deserve to be called a Man. Real Men don't commit crimes against there fellow human beings - period!)
Movie actor Jeremy Irons made a comment that while he is against abortion, he supports a woman's "right" to have one.
And when I heard that, I couldn't help but think of it as such a wishy-washy, inconsistent statement to make. Either you're in support of something, or you're against it, but you can't have it both ways. There is rarely - if ever - a middle-ground.
That's the way life in itself works! Everytime you make a decision, or stand up for something, you also sacrifice something in the process.
So what are your thoughts? And when replying, I ask that we please stay civil. If I see people insulting each other, I will personally flag the person who is doing it.
And to any moderator who reads this, I realize that this could be considered a political issue, but I ask that it not be moved to the "Political Thread".
I want to address this completely as a social and ethical issue, and am not, and do not wish to drag politics into it.
Thank you!
Comments
I support a woman's right to choose 100%
Personally though, it depends on the circumstances.
A couple has an accident and a woman decides that she's not done with the party life? That's kind of BS to me.
(I mention that very specifically, because I've heard that one)
Rape on the other hand? That's one of those circumstances.
Again though, I'm not a woman, so my opinion is null.
I'm pro-choice so obviously I support a woman's right to choose. There is one thing I want to address regarding your post, though.
I think what Jeremy Irons was trying to say is that while he is personally against abortion, he's going to mind his own business and isn't going to shame anybody who decides to have one. I don't think he was trying to "have it both ways."
I don't like the practice of abortion. I think it should be used only as a last resort. That being said, I don't believe it is right to force someone to carry a baby to term. Carrying a baby and then giving birth to them is not an easy thing, and to do so should be appreciated, not mandatory. In the case of rape especially, it's no less right to force a woman to carry the baby to term when they are the victim of a traumatizing crime (I feel very strongly on this point, as there has been a story over here recently about a girl who was raped at thirteen and committed suicide two years later due to the trauma and bullying).
There is only one instance in which I believe abortion should be restricted. I think the 'I'm not ready' reason is a weak excuse unless the couple tried to use protection. I don't believe a woman should be able to use abortion as a contraceptive if she doesn't bother to take precautions. You are responsible for your own body and well-being, and you should have to pay for the consequences if you get yourself into that situation without taking any precautions (this doesn't just apply to abortion, you should also front the costs if you have a medical condition which is the result of your actions).
I'd also like to add that I don't believe abortion to be a 'women's issue', and I don't buy the idea that men have no right to talk about it because they can't get pregnant. The majority of people who oppose abortion hold that belief because it is the same as murder in their eyes, not because they're sexist.
I think if men were the ones that got pregnant this whole abortion debate wouldn't exist because they would mainly be in favor of it.
I am pro choice a embryo isnt a person its a tiny clump of cells it doesn't have feelings or hopes and dreams it doesn't look forward to life and dream of becoming the president its little more than a cancer during the early stages.
Abort as many times as you want. I really don't care nor is it my business.
There are circumstances where you have the "moral high ground" aborting it and circumstances where you may look selfish. You do you.
Abort everything, you go girls, ur bodies yeehah
Actually rather be honest then say popular answer
I'm not for murdering babies with abortion only in extreme circumstances like rape
I also think the father should have a say in it as if I ever got girl pregnant found out I was father and she got it easily aborted without even asking my opinion or me knowing that would destroy me.
Saying this just my opinion wouldn't force it on anyone or ever talk about it unless someone asked my opinion directly
The problem with the father part is that we're not the ones going through months of pain and discomfort to bring the child into this world. Midnight runs for pickles and ice cream isn't exactly on par. That said, I do agree that it would be preferable to have a say. I would want one, but I don't think we should "have to" have one.
God's reaction when seeing this thread:
Against it in every instance, except for conditions wherein the pregnancy is a threat to the mother's life. It's not just a "cluster of cells" It's a cluster of cells that make up an individual human being, just like you. It's human offspring, conceived by human parents, with its own set of human DNA, and willfully murdering it in the womb for convenience is not a "human right". Before you hit me with the "BUT A WOMAN'S RIGHT TO CHOOSE, PRO-CHOICE!" let me tell you something interesting: I am also pro-choice, but in a different way. I am pro-choice in the sense that women should be able to choose to engage in sexual activity, protected or unprotected. I KNOW that contraceptives don't always work, and if you don't want to take that small risk, don't have sex at all. If you describe yourself as pro-choice, why does this choice matter so little? Maybe you're pro-choice, but anti-accountability.
I don't hate women, I don't want to control your body. All I want is for people to be held responsible for their actions and stop the murder of innocent human beings. Yes, they are human beings and frankly, I don't really give a fuck what it subjectively is to you, reality and biology sure as hell don't care either. Shaming women for having an abortion is wrong, of course. But people who use it as a form of birth control are despicable.
Abortion is immoral, and should not be legal for any purpose other than the single exception I have stated. It's not about controlling women's bodies, or being a misogynist. It's purely a moral issue. Anyone who says I don't have a say in it because I'm a man is someone who of course, has already been born. At least be honest to yourself and others if you are for abortion, just say that you don't care. It's more honest than pretending it is not a human life.
Mandatory abortion for everyone all the time unless you receive a "pregnancy pass" or "reproduction receipt".
Can't wait until we have artificial wombs so we can all be neutered at birth and put this shit in the past.
EDIT
http://edmontonjournal.com/storyline/they-knew-he-was-dying-parents-guilty-of-1st-degree-murder-in-sons-death
Just found this on reddit. Procreation permit, that's what I'm sayin'.
All for it. Clearly, nobody seems to care about orphans and rape victims. The only problem is that it's so expensive. But what do I know? I'm disabled, haven't had a vagina, and just woke up, so...
Lmao dude same.
Good news artificial wombs are in development they are going to make one so they can grow a adorable baby mammoth
They're in development, but they have been for quite some time. If an extinct-species-resurrection were to happen right now they would need to use a viable womb, for a mammoth that would likely be some form of elephant.
First off, I disagree with your interpretation of Jeremy Irons' comment. What he said was while he doesn't personally agree with abortion or it's means, he does believe that it should still be there- as an option for the woman. Just because he believes it should be a right, doesn't mean he agrees with it. I don't see how that's a "wishy-washy" answer. I don't like Irons, but there's nothing wrong with his answer. I, for a while, had a similar view.
Anyway with that out of the way, nowadays, I do support abortion. It should be there as a choice and I have no real moral (or religious) beliefs against it. You wanna get an abortion for whatever reasons, by all means, go ahead. I certainty don't think it's a "woman's only issue", though.
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Are you suggesting the media lied to me I think you will find that if its on the news its basically gospel /s
Does that make what I said blasphemy?
Dear media, please find mercy in your cavernous socket where most things contain a heart. Amen.
I'm against it. I'll respect the woman's choice if they want to get one, but I still think it's morally wrong. Because it's still the killing of a child, even if the child hasn't been born yet.
True, but its still the father's child that she's aborting. Obviously it won't affect him physically like it does a woman, but it can still affect him emotionally in a similar way. To be perfectly honest, I'd say the father has just as much of a say in the issue as the mother does.
I'll just keep this short and simple: I'm 100% pro choice.
Wait, people think an embryo is more important than a teenage girl's life?
And men are trying to tell women what to do?
What's next, Obama is making the decisions for Trump? (that wouldn't be so bad, actually...)
Personally, my stance is it's fine. Sure the embryo would grow up to be a human some day, but if the woman is willing to abort the embryo, then she'd probably not raise it if she couldn't. Most likely send the baby to a foster home. And do we really need more homeless babies on our planet? Food supply can't keep up with the human population; face it, population control is going to be necessary at some point.
you mean an embryo? One that can't feel, think, see, hear, anything?
yes, and so is the meat industry, the wool/fur industry, clothing and tablet factories in asia, but I don't see you complaining on that. Are you technology free and always naked? Nope.
Soylent Green is PEOPLE!!!
We had a movement there in France against abortion called the "survivors", because they literally consider themself as survivors. They claim they have a fucking trauma because their brothers were killed (they don't even necessarily had their mother practicing abortion, they just consider embryo as their brothers).
You've got to be fragile af to think that way.
I'm for abortion as the law permits it; meaning as long as it's made on an embryo/foetus not developped enough.
Billions of billions of spermatozoon die every hour, people will soon forbid ejaculation outside marital duty..
You mean the same one that has, or eventually will have, its own DNA, working brain, beating heart, and spinal cord? What exactly, to you, qualifies as a human? If your point is that if it can't feel, hear, nor think, you don't care if it dies, that's fair enough, but I do care. It is highly comparable to that of a coma patient. Is it moral to murder them?
Well I don't recall this thread being about the electronic, meat and clothing industries. I guess not complaining about it means I condone those practices. We can talk animal cruelty/tablet factories another time, but this is completely unrelated. I don't have a clue why you would even bother making the comparison since abortion is the topic of discussion at the time, and last time I checked abortions were never performed to generate any sort of product. I guess the needless slaughter of babies means fuck all because of x issue and y issue.
I'm anti-abortion and I'm pro-life and if there's a rape then yeah you should abort,but if there's no rape and you want to abort a baby then it really is worth not to abort at all.
So kind of i think that's my stance is already on this.
I think it's a waste of life, and not necessary in the vast majority of cases, but I am not for forcing a woman to go through the process of pregnancy if she does not wish to.
Just my nitpicking time:
Murder means killing someone who got judicial capacity. As long as the foetus isn't born, they don't have any judicial capacity, at least in my country, and it's probably the same in yours.
Hence why one can't call it a murder, or at least it's false to call it that way.
If you ever live in a society which succeeded to make it illegal, they'll do it anyway, kinda like a black market of abortion.
Bravo, you won the semantics game! So do you believe unborn fetuses should have judicial capacity? Because I do. It doesn't matter to me whether the law grants judicial capacity to a fetus. It is still immoral and you are taking an innocent life. Don't you think it's a bit backward that a baby isn't granted its rights until the moment it is born? Because I do. You say you're only nitpicking, so what is your actual point?
So I guess we shouldn't even make an effort to end an immoral practice? The government should just let it be because you know.... black markets....
Do you have a moral, or scientific argument against my position?
It's always semantic when it's about law; the definitions are needed to know which acts are illegal, and to know who can be sued for what. If the person don't get judicial capacity, then it's not a murder. You can change the law of course, but until that day it is not.
I have law argument and that's the only one I care of in that case.
It allows abortion only when the foetus/embryo is still young; I might understand people wanting to lower the weeks before it isn't allowed anymore, but I don't really understand for not allowing it at all, moreover in a world where we're too many on earth. In term of length of pregnancy, abortion is actually more forbidden than allowed.
Just to be sure: I'm not denying your right to share you POV. My point in the first place was to say it was wrong based on a legal POV.
It is backward. But law doesn't always work on facts. Are you in favor of a right based only on nature?
Well clearly I never made an argument on the basis of what is currently legal or illegal, nor any argument from the standpoint of the current legal standing of abortion. I never meant "murder" in a legal sense, fine 'Killing" or "disposal of human life" if you're still so uptight about it. Take the law out of this, I never intended to bring it in. I was arguing from a purely moral and scientific POV.
What do you mean by this, can you please be more specific?
If the fetus endangers the woman's life, you would find abortion justified. I have a hypothetical of the same vein, but with an additional detail. Say the fetus would absolutely live if the mother carried it to term (House style, if you've seen it), but the mother would likely die. Would you still find abortion justified in this scenario?
Grant me that the mother would ABSOLUTELY die, then yes, in this scenario under these circumstances, I would say it is entirely up to the mother. A life would be lost either way. There is no right or wrong choice in this situation.
Were you going somewhere with this? Do you disagree with anything?
Sure, I'll grant that (that's how I initially phrased it, but changed it to make the decision more difficult).
Say I'm dying and I need a. . . brain. . stem... transplant, or something. Would you allow me to kill a toddler to save my life?
I am going somewhere with this. You're smart, and I'm sure you can already tell where it's going. I find the socratic method is useful when uncovering cognitive dissonance (no offence intended, we all have it in one form or another).
Also, you don't need to be on the defensive with me. I'm not attacking you, just having a philosophical discussion.
EDIT- If you want to move this to PM let me know.
Yet.
Edit- Hypothetically, say you have a newborn baby that is born brain dead, but in only 2 minutes brain activity will assuredly start up and he will continue to grow and develope like any other newborn. Would it be acceptable to kill him?
Sorry, it just seemed like the perfect setup to be honest lol. It felt like neither answer was the right one.
Circumstances, circumstances. It's all complicated, and not a very realistic situation. I say no, I wouldn't. But no matter what my answer, I'm sure we can both agree that in reality, being pro life is reasonable. Philosophically, I'll give you that one, but realistically, I admit no inconsistency.
If you'd like to continue, then sure. PM me.
Don't worry so much about giving the "right answer", just be honest about your stance. God knows my perspective on morality isn't perfect.
It doesn't matter much if it's realistic. The intention isn't to see it out in real life, only how your moral stance would allow you to react to it.
Okay, this is the most important part of your post, though I'll address the rest of it after this.
Why would you not let me kill the toddler in order to save my life? A life is going to be lost in either outcome, so there is no right answer, correct? So it would be up to me to make that decision?
We're jumping the gun. This hypothetical will directly tie into your real life moral code. I'm not going to give my moral opinion until the end, if you don't mind (just so I don't paint the picture one way or the other).
I should have been more specific. It's a philosophical/ethical discussion more than, say, a philosophical/epistemological or philosophical/metaphysical discussion. Because of this in order for your moral stance to be applied consistently in the real world it must be consistent in this hypothetical questionnaire, or at least it should be if you want your moral opinion to mean anything other than "I like it like this, and if you don't you're immoral."
I've answered in a pm.
I love abortions!