@Rommel49, you misinterpreted my stance. I said that the judgement of his character is dependent upon your choices, not that his character is primarily revealed through your choices. Case in point was how you only brought up those examples that proved your point, instead of examining the entirety of his actions to come up with a character judgement.
And I have said before, the man is brash, and prone to panic. I don't see him as being primarily a bad man, however, due to my specific interactions with him.
Except that's not really true, the original claim was that the assessment of Kenny being stupid/cowardly were dependent on your decisions, and they weren't (atleast not in my case).
All of the examples I brought up occur no matter your decisions and do allow for a judgement of his character regardless, to quote Robert Freeman: "character is not made in a crisis, it is only exhibited". Most of the examples you listed are in situations where things are relatively calm, i.e. where it's not possible to judge the guy's courage or lack thereof.
Even when he saves Lee from the drug store, Kenny's at minimal risk. There was only one walker near enough to attack, and it was both in a prone position and focused on Lee. The nearest walkers aside from that one are halfway across the store.
Except that's not really true, the original claim was that the assessment of Kenny being stupid/cowardly were dependent on your decisions, and they weren't (atleast not in my case).
All of the examples I brought up occur no matter your decisions and do allow for a judgement of his character regardless, to quote Robert Freeman: "character is not made in a crisis, it is only exhibited". Most of the examples you listed are in situations where things are relatively calm, i.e. where it's not possible to judge the guy's courage or lack thereof.
Even when he saves Lee from the drug store, Kenny's at minimal risk. There was only one walker near enough to attack, and it was both in a prone position and focused on Lee. The nearest walkers aside from that one are halfway across the store.
In regards to Kenny's character, we of course are going to draw conclusions based on what we were shown in our specific playthroughs. The mere possibility of something happening does not prove or disprove the traits of a person. At anyone time there are thousands of possibilities for how someone may or may not respond, and it is based on more than just a persons "character" (there are always determining outside factors that need to be considered)..
THAT was my original argument, so you can stop putting words in my mouth. My proof of this is where you bring up only the actions that support your assessment of him being a cowardly idiot. When I bring up evidence to the contrary, you attempt to diminish the situation. (By the way, running back into a room full of walkers is dangerous, as is standing your ground protecting someone who is attempting to make a rescue while you are being approached by a horde of walkers, AS IS bum-rushing the man who is holding your child at gun-point, so your claim that he is a coward based on only about half of his actions is false.)
At least when I make my character assessment, I can evaluate him based on the entire picture I am shown. He is liable to panic (as evidenced with Shawn on Herschel's farm). He often acts without thinking through the entire situation (the meat locker, and rushing the guy with the gun being the most notable of these situations). He is, however, a man with good intentions, willing to help out people who are in need. He will, however, always put his family's safety ahead of anything else (which you can't really fault him for, because this would be ANYBODY'S first choice, unless you're just heartless).
THAT was my original argument, so you can stop putting words in my mouth. My proof of this is where you bring up only the actions that support your assessment of him being a cowardly idiot. When I bring up evidence to the contrary, you attempt to diminish the situation. (By the way, running back into a room full of walkers is dangerous, as is standing your ground protecting someone who is attempting to make a rescue while you are being approached by a horde of walkers, AS IS bum-rushing the man who is holding your child at gun-point, so your claim that he is a coward based on only about half of his actions is false.)
At least when I make my character assessment, I can evaluate him based on the entire picture I am shown. He is liable to panic (as evidenced with Shawn on Herschel's farm). He often acts without thinking through the entire situation (the meat locker, and rushing the guy with the gun being the most notable of these situations). He is, however, a man with good intentions, willing to help out people who are in need. He will, however, always put his family's safety ahead of anything else (which you can't really fault him for, because this would be ANYBODY'S first choice, unless you're just heartless).
Except in that very same post, this was your statement:
Basically, each of us is going to see what we want, based upon how OUR decisions played out. So, go ahead and call Kenny a coward and an idiot - in your playthrough, that assessment may be totally correct.
- Emphasis mine.
That's what I responded to, and hint, it's not putting words in your mouth if it's something you said. Every example I cited occurs in every playthrough, regardless of your decisions.
Now, I suppose in some bizzaro world you could try to claim he wasn't stupid/cowardly in the examples cited (however, I'll note you never even tried to contest that), but where most of us come from, repeatedly doing things with the readily forseeable consequence of getting several people killed for questionable or no gain tends to qualify as stupid, you haven't even attempted to justify them: Hell, I'd love to see someone explain the upside of drawing attention to your position by talking to yourself when you just escaped and your group's still unarmed.
Most of your evidence to the contrary wasn't actually evidence to the contrary; there's nothing particularly brave about offering a guy and a little girl a trip to a place that you're heading to anyway. I and others addressed most of your evidence, the two cases you previously mentioned, i.e. the drugstore where he supposedly puts himself at risk, he's... really not, there's potentially one walker within range to attack him, that's both prone and focused on Lee, the others only manage to reach the halfway point of the store. Likewise while watching your back while trying to free the guy from the trap, we see how slowly the walkers move - they never get within 30 feet of the group.
And the point that went unanswered is that in no objective way does the good outweigh the bad here when weighing the potential negative consequences (e.g. little things like potentially getting the group killed) with the positives. It's like arguing we shouldn't put criminals in jail to be rehabilitated/punished as long as they happen to be fine, upstanding citizens most of the time. Seriously, not everything is a shade of grey, there is such a thing as the golden mean fallacy.
The reason why I ended with "your" playthrough is that he does do SOME things differently based on your decisions. Therefore, you may possibly have more evidence than myself that he is indeed "cowardly/an idiot". For example, in my playthrough he jumps in to save me in the barn, using the sickle to stab the brother in the neck before he can shoot me. I would definitely put that in the "not cowardly" category. Neither his "static" behavior nor his "variable" behavior is enough to completely judge the man, especially when you just ignore the points being made contrary to your assessment. However, as my point proves, it is your specific playthrough that is going to solidify your character assessment.
And not every piece of evidence I brought forth was an example of just his "bravery" - remember that you also brought up the notion that he was an idiot. Getting an extra pair of helping hands does not seem like an "idiot" thing to me. Making sure that everyone's time is spent well in the drug store does not feel like a dumb decision. Suggesting to bunker down in the Motor Inn for the time being is not a "stupid" suggestion. Forcing Lee to stop fiddling with the trap so that you still have time to escape from the walkers is not "unintelligent". Wanting to leave the Motor Inn instead of possibly starving to death is not a "fool's" notion. And, would you look at that! I have come up with just as many specific examples as you have (and my evidence is only for his intelligence, I'm sure the evidence for his bravery would put me over here) - so if we're playing tit for tat, then why wouldn't the good necessarily outweigh the bad?
As far as the "courage" part, in hindsight you can always say that the situation was not that dangerous. The fact of the matter was that Kenny had not been in the Drug Store since before Doug/Carley's death. Going back to the store to save Lee put him in unknown danger, especially if you consider that they had just lost a member of the group to Walkers in there. He could have possibly just walked into a hot bed of Walkers and gotten himself killed, all to save Lee's life - the point is that he didn't know it was "safe" to go back, and that's what makes it a courageous act.
Sure, you can claim that he has done a few stupid things...but for that matter, so has Glenn, Carley, Doug, and even Lee (remember, he also stands around shouting in Clementine's yard, even though there were walkers just on the other side of the fence that he knew about!). I could even make the argument that it was Kenny's shouting that got them saved, because it is possible that the group in the drugstore would have never known they were out there, otherwise.
Besides, I've already offered my assessment of the man. Where you say "cowardly", I would say "panicked". Where you say "stupid" I would say "brash". It's clear from the connotatively negative words that you pick means that you think of Kenny as a bad man. That is why I will never be able to agree with you.
Your decisions have nothing to do with Kenny's temperament and character. He is who he is, regardless of his friendliness or hostility to you.
He gives Lee and Clem a ride to Macon, despite having no obligation to do so.
He needs you to feel safer.
He assigns people on jobs in the drug store (all of which make sense).
Which is really odd indeed. First of all, he is the only one that doesn't do anything. He just sits there, basically doing nothing. He was the one to alert the zombies. He didn't check his son for bites but then openly attack the group that just saved their lives. Plus, no one has appointed him for a leader. He can hardly make a decision without Lee.
He comes back to help Lee in the drug store (risking his life to save yours REGARDLESS of whether or not you have had his back).
Again he is the first one to run away and later comes to find you because you are the closest thing he has to an ally. He needs and he clearly doesn't care about you as shown in EP 2.
He watches Lee's back as he tries to free the teacher, but ultimately is the one who makes the executive decision to leave him there when it gets to dangerous to stay.
He doesn't watch your back... Mark watches your back better than him. He just complains that he is wasting ammo, putting pressure on the situation and making you rush your decision. After that he keeps his "I'm the leader" attitude.
Kenny is the same character in every possible playthrough. If he wasn't than the game wouldn't be interesting. He may be friendly to you, but the very moment you stop following his lead, he will show his true colours.
Haven't you all had a friend that you knew wasn't a real friend despite your friendly relationship with him. And when one day this friendliness fades, you can see that person for whom they really are.
Sisterofshane, I will laugh really hard when Kenny does something to your Lee, despite your friendliness with him. Then I will come back to this topic and wait you to come and start defending his next fucked-up decision.
Kenny can never be a leader, because the leader needs to take initiative. Kenny never does anything, he always waits for Lee to do them and then criticize. Lilly was the one to ration the food and take the blame from all, Lee was the one to save Carley/Doug, go for gas, find the key and decide whether to give the gun to the bitten girl or not. He then decides if he should chop the teacher's leg and kills the zombie. He goes to the Dairy first, he helps there, he goes to the forest to look for the bandits, HE DISCOVERS THE TRUTH ABOUT THE BACK DOOR AT THE BARN, he founds Mark, he prevents the rest from eating, he find the way out of the meat locker, he deals with Danny, Andy and with Brenda.
The only thing that Kenny ever did on his own was to finish Larry. What kind of leadership skills do we exactly talk about? Since when is simple bossing called leadership. Kenny is the worst person for a leader. I can't really get how you claim otherwise.
Wow, Yami. Why don't you tell me how you really feel?
Besides, I try not to judge people for their decisions unless they deliberately try to screw me over. I think I would be more disappointed in Tell Tale if they decide to go this route than I would be with Kenny's character.
The thing is, you do typically survive by making friends. To reiterate, people who like/love you do so even while you're sleeping. A person that likes you is more likely to trust and go out of their way for you (indeed, the game tends to show us as much).
I didn't explain good. Kenny it's my friend, I'll defend him and his family and I trust him. But if in the future I disagree with him in something and he treats me like crap then (like in your gameplay), he would disappoint me and I would be over with him.
For that reason I said "I see your point now, Kenny haters". You must replay Episode 2 to see the "Kenny supporter" point of view.
what do you mean right at most things...what are these "most things"
assides from the meat locker, and attracting zombie attention, and running away, has he ever done anything...just wondering
edit: OH, I know...when he blindly runs out and gets shot like a fool...thats the "most things" he was right about
Think through and remember, please. He lets you coming with his family along when Hershel's kicked them out. He saves your life when Larry tries to kill Lee... even when you treated like crap (if you chose not saving Duck). He comes running to help when he hears the teacher screaming believing that was Lee or Mark. He helps you out with Danny at the barn.
For me that it's not being a coward at all.
I'm agree with him at crushing Larry's head at the meat locker. We cannot afford to risk that someone like Larry comes back as a zombie when we are locked up. We cannot count on Lilly, I would bet that she couldn't kill to zombified Larry version. It would be 2 starving and weak people vs zombie Larry.
I'm agree with him at picking up the car trunk's content.
I'm agree with him when he suspects something about the St. John's family. I was suspecting too before him.
I disagree when he starts saying that we would take the dairy for us. Sometimes he says stupid things like this or smashing the barn's door but It's the situation (and he's not perfect, he's human, like us). Glad Lee it's there to say to Kenny that was a bad idea.
Your decisions have nothing to do with Kenny's temperament and character. He is who he is, regardless of his friendliness or hostility to you.
He needs you to feel safer.
Which is really odd indeed. First of all, he is the only one that doesn't do anything. He just sits there, basically doing nothing. He was the one to alert the zombies. He didn't check his son for bites but then openly attack the group that just saved their lives. Plus, no one has appointed him for a leader. He can hardly make a decision without Lee.
Again he is the first one to run away and later comes to find you because you are the closest thing he has to an ally. He needs and he clearly doesn't care about you as shown in EP 2.
He doesn't watch your back... Mark watches your back better than him. He just complains that he is wasting ammo, putting pressure on the situation and making you rush your decision. After that he keeps his "I'm the leader" attitude.
Kenny is the same character in every possible playthrough. If he wasn't than the game wouldn't be interesting. He may be friendly to you, but the very moment you stop following his lead, he will show his true colours.
Haven't you all had a friend that you knew wasn't a real friend despite your friendly relationship with him. And when one day this friendliness fades, you can see that person for whom they really are.
Sisterofshane, I will laugh really hard when Kenny does something to your Lee, despite your friendliness with him. Then I will come back to this topic and wait you to come and start defending his next fucked-up decision.
Kenny can never be a leader, because the leader needs to take initiative. Kenny never does anything, he always waits for Lee to do them and then criticize. Lilly was the one to ration the food and take the blame from all, Lee was the one to save Carley/Doug, go for gas, find the key and decide whether to give the gun to the bitten girl or not. He then decides if he should chop the teacher's leg and kills the zombie. He goes to the Dairy first, he helps there, he goes to the forest to look for the bandits, HE DISCOVERS THE TRUTH ABOUT THE BACK DOOR AT THE BARN, he founds Mark, he prevents the rest from eating, he find the way out of the meat locker, he deals with Danny, Andy and with Brenda.
The only thing that Kenny ever did on his own was to finish Larry. What kind of leadership skills do we exactly talk about? Since when is simple bossing called leadership. Kenny is the worst person for a leader. I can't really get how you claim otherwise.
I really think Kenny is the same character in every playthrough - Loyal to his friends, hateful to his enemies, and always reminding you through his actions that if shit hits the fan, he'll be looking after his family first and foremost. The problem is he does this so extremely, barely looking out for the group at all. There's no way he'd be able to do what Lilly does, although Lilly has her problems too.
Lee can be the perfect combination of the two. Time for him to take charge!
Given the fact that you can turn into his enemy by not disagreeing only once with him, after all the good you've done I would say that most of what you say Kenny supporters isn't really true. A true friend would never leave you to die.
You can be his best buddy to the meat locker scene and after that he will leave you to rot. Nice friends you make guys
P.S Have you noticed how many times Kenny says "sorry"? He does something stupid and he says "sorry". He lets Shawn get eaten and he says "sorry". He make racist remarks to Lee and he says "sorry". He kills Larry and he says "sorry".
Well guess what. I will quote Hershel Greene "Sorry, SORRY? Your son is alive, you don't get to be sorry!"
Given the fact that you can turn into his enemy by not disagreeing only once with him, after all the good you've done I would say that most of what you say Kenny supporters isn't really true. A true friend would never leave you to die.
You can be hist best buddy to the meat locker scene and after that he will leave you to rot. Nice friends you make guys
i tried to play the other way, agreeing w/kenny over the larry situation. afterwards, i had to cut the game off. i felt like a true monster after pulling lilly away from larry, just so kenny could finish him off.
i want to like kenny but i just cant. i can tell he's the type of person that would stab me in the back at the drop of a dime unless i'm 110% loyal to his decisions
P.S Have you noticed how many times Kenny says "sorry"? He does something stupid and he says "sorry". He lets Shawn get eaten and he says "sorry". He make racist remarks to Lee and he says "sorry". He kills Larry and he says "sorry".
Well guess what. I will quote Hershel Greene "Sorry, SORRY? Your son is alive, you don't get to be sorry!"
Well Ive been known to say sorry a lot too, that's just a personality thing, you cant blame him for that. His actions yeah maybe haaha
mooneysuzuki, I respect people who apologize for their mistakes. However, in Kenny's situation you can't just say "sorry" and believe you are forgiven. His sorry feels like a hypocritical remark more than an actually apology.
You can't just let a boy die/kill a guy and say "sorry".
he gives you a ride to Macon (because he needs someone who can bust a few heads)
delegates jobs in the store (Doug, you just keep doin what you are already doin...Carley, I need you ready to save my fam again, Me and Kat are just going to sit here a do absolutly nothing...thanks)
comes back for Lee (wow, only one zombie and he is facing away from me, axe...come on Lee, I just rescued you so you gotta be my toady now)
comes running when the teacher screams thinking it mite be Lee (wheres the proof he thought that, he very well could of been hiding and watching untill he saw Lee show up)
Now bad points for Kenny:
doesn't help shawn with fence (no need for me to repay you for allowing me and my family a place to stay)
doesnt help shawn (even stares a few seconds before he runs off)
gets zombies after everyone (hey guys, you freindly)
doesn't help carley and lee fight off thos zombies (Im just to scared)
is confrontational with Lilly and Lary in drugstore even before Larry noticed duck (How dare you say that your group shouldnt risk itself for my benifit)
...now I could list many more bad points but as the bad is already winning I will stop there...if I missed any good ones just let me know
also, whether you say cowardly and stupid or panicky and brash doesnt matter...you dont need a leader (or member) with those charectoristics
mooneysuzuki, I respect people who apologize for their mistakes. However, in Kenny's situation you can't just say "sorry" and believe you are forgiven. His sorry feels like a hypocritical remark more than an actually apology.
You can't just let a boy die/kill a guy and say "sorry".
yeah totally agree with that man, theres certain stuff that sorry wont fix, like bashing some ones head in;)
yeah totally agree with that man, theres certain stuff that sorry wont fix, like bashing some ones head in;)
Bashing some corpse's head in, you meant. Larry was dead. It's something tragic but they needed to do that.
I thought that the walking deads were the bad guys here. Now ensure that a corpse won't wake up is it bad? Wow, you will survive in TWD universe... like 5 or 10 minutes. :rolleyes:
Deadk1ng, you didn't even get to the barn scene and I already hate him.
The_Ripper, I'm sorry but you are the one who won't last long. Once you off someone from your group because "you know he was dead" (despite there's absolutely no proof of that), be prepared to be left to die the first time you are in any danger. Nobody tolerates cowards.
Deadk1ng, you didn't even get to the barn scene and I already hate him.
The_Ripper, I'm sorry but you are the one who won't last long. Once you off someone from your group because "you know he was dead" (despite there's absolutely no proof of that), be prepared to be left to die the first time you are in any danger. Nobody tolerates cowards.
Have the **lls to do the right thing despite being so tough it's being coward?
You would wait to let someone converts and fight with the zombie using your bare hands being yourself starved and weak?
Do you want proofs? Larry it's not breathing. He has no pulse. Man, what else do you want?
Bashing some corpse's head in, you meant. Larry was dead.
Erm, you don't know this...
Pointless going over the same old tired points but to suggest he WAS dead is just silly, hundreds of thousands of people are resuscitated through CPR every year.
Have the **lls to do the right thing despite being so tough it's being coward?
You would wait to let someone converts and fight with the zombie using your bare hands being yourself starved and weak?
Do you want proofs? Larry it's not breathing. He has no pulse. Man, what else do you want?
Yeah, you would last so long too.
"Having the balls to do the right thing" would have been to take the risks and try to save a mans life, not kill him because he MIGHT turn into a zombie in 5 minutes time.
And the fact you have no pulse does not mean you are dead, it means your heart has stopped hence the need for CPR.
Pointless going over the same old tired points but to suggest he WAS dead is just silly, hundreds of thousands of people are resuscitated through CPR every year.
Lee and Lilly wasn't insuflating air to Larry, that was not a CPR.
Maybe a CR :rolleyes:, so neither Lee or Lilly knew how to make a CPR. Hence, Larry it's condemned and dead.
The_Ripper, I would try to save the people that keep this group alive. In order to survive you need people you can count on and that goes both ways. They need to be able to count on you too.
I guess we have different understanding of what "Having the balls to do the right thing" truly means. I agree with Kinky John Fowler completely.
The_Ripper if you want to bring back the "was Larry really dead" topic just read the last ten pages. I'm sorry but I'm tired of recycling same arguments with the same people over and over again.
Bashing some corpse's head in, you meant. Larry was dead. It's something tragic but they needed to do that.
I thought that the walking deads were the bad guys here. Now ensure that a corpse won't wake up is it bad? Wow, you will survive in TWD universe... like 5 or 10 minutes. :rolleyes:
Hey i was happy to smash his head, if there was an option to do it myself, i would have. Hated that guy.
And in response to myself surviving in TWD, I live in Manhattan so I don't think I'd even be able to get out of my apartment building haha
I was watching the web... It's very interesting that campaign.
However making a RCP doesn't make to one person wake up if he or she had a cardiac arrest. Maybe this is ok for people that drawned. Increases probability of recovery once the ambulance reaches to the place. But at TWD time there's no hospitals or ambulances.
From Wikipedia:
Used alone, CPR will result in few complete recoveries, and those who do survive often develop serious complications. Estimates vary, but many organizations stress that CPR does not "bring anyone back," it simply preserves the body for defibrillation and advanced life support.
I was watching the web... It's very interesting that campaign.
However making a RCP doesn't make to one person wake up if he or she had a cardiac arrest. Maybe this is ok for people that drawned. Increases probability of recovery once the ambulance reaches to the place. But at TWD time there's no hospitals or ambulances.
From Wikipedia:
As someone who just re certified my CPR licence, this was straight up taught me. We are just doing it till someone with advanced life support arrives. Hence why they stress that for adults, even before starting CPR, you call someone so they can be on the way.
On kids, you do 5 cycles of CPR, then you all someone. Either way, calling someone to come back you up/advanced life support equipment is very important. CPR is not to bring anyone back, but to prevent brain death from lack of oxygen.
Kenny's was my main bud first episode. But now the guy's become a massive liability leaving me to die. Because I didn't want to kill someone father while they were watching. Hell if I get a chance I am so pushing Duck and him out of a speeding train his wife a doc so keep her.
The problem with Kenny is his loyalty is razor thin. Step out of line just once and he'll turn on you. I hated Lilly and Larry during the first episode, but now I'm starting to see that while they are much more hard edged than Kenny, they probably wouldnt sell out Lee and Clemantine if it meant protecting themselves. Whereas I totally believe Kenny would leave us all to die if he thought for a single second it would make life easier for his wife and son.
The problem with Kenny is his loyalty is razor thin. Step out of line just once and he'll turn on you. I hated Lilly and Larry during the first episode, but now I'm starting to see that while they are much more hard edged than Kenny, they probably wouldnt sell out Lee and Clemantine if it meant protecting themselves. Whereas I totally believe Kenny would leave us all to die if he thought for a single second it would make life easier for his wife and son.
While playing my "Lilly for the Win" version, when the time came, and Kenny presented the plan to Lee, he says, "You've NEVER had my back, but this is the time. I need you to back me up THIS TIME."
I have a feeling if you followed Lilly all the way until that moment, it may mean Kenny puts you on his side in his mind because you sided with him on that decision.
Comments
Except that's not really true, the original claim was that the assessment of Kenny being stupid/cowardly were dependent on your decisions, and they weren't (atleast not in my case).
All of the examples I brought up occur no matter your decisions and do allow for a judgement of his character regardless, to quote Robert Freeman: "character is not made in a crisis, it is only exhibited". Most of the examples you listed are in situations where things are relatively calm, i.e. where it's not possible to judge the guy's courage or lack thereof.
Even when he saves Lee from the drug store, Kenny's at minimal risk. There was only one walker near enough to attack, and it was both in a prone position and focused on Lee. The nearest walkers aside from that one are halfway across the store.
THAT was my original argument, so you can stop putting words in my mouth. My proof of this is where you bring up only the actions that support your assessment of him being a cowardly idiot. When I bring up evidence to the contrary, you attempt to diminish the situation. (By the way, running back into a room full of walkers is dangerous, as is standing your ground protecting someone who is attempting to make a rescue while you are being approached by a horde of walkers, AS IS bum-rushing the man who is holding your child at gun-point, so your claim that he is a coward based on only about half of his actions is false.)
At least when I make my character assessment, I can evaluate him based on the entire picture I am shown. He is liable to panic (as evidenced with Shawn on Herschel's farm). He often acts without thinking through the entire situation (the meat locker, and rushing the guy with the gun being the most notable of these situations). He is, however, a man with good intentions, willing to help out people who are in need. He will, however, always put his family's safety ahead of anything else (which you can't really fault him for, because this would be ANYBODY'S first choice, unless you're just heartless).
Nope, they blatantly ignore it.:rolleyes:
You bastards!!!!! There it is!!:D
Except in that very same post, this was your statement:
- Emphasis mine.
That's what I responded to, and hint, it's not putting words in your mouth if it's something you said. Every example I cited occurs in every playthrough, regardless of your decisions.
Now, I suppose in some bizzaro world you could try to claim he wasn't stupid/cowardly in the examples cited (however, I'll note you never even tried to contest that), but where most of us come from, repeatedly doing things with the readily forseeable consequence of getting several people killed for questionable or no gain tends to qualify as stupid, you haven't even attempted to justify them: Hell, I'd love to see someone explain the upside of drawing attention to your position by talking to yourself when you just escaped and your group's still unarmed.
Most of your evidence to the contrary wasn't actually evidence to the contrary; there's nothing particularly brave about offering a guy and a little girl a trip to a place that you're heading to anyway. I and others addressed most of your evidence, the two cases you previously mentioned, i.e. the drugstore where he supposedly puts himself at risk, he's... really not, there's potentially one walker within range to attack him, that's both prone and focused on Lee, the others only manage to reach the halfway point of the store. Likewise while watching your back while trying to free the guy from the trap, we see how slowly the walkers move - they never get within 30 feet of the group.
And the point that went unanswered is that in no objective way does the good outweigh the bad here when weighing the potential negative consequences (e.g. little things like potentially getting the group killed) with the positives. It's like arguing we shouldn't put criminals in jail to be rehabilitated/punished as long as they happen to be fine, upstanding citizens most of the time. Seriously, not everything is a shade of grey, there is such a thing as the golden mean fallacy.
And not every piece of evidence I brought forth was an example of just his "bravery" - remember that you also brought up the notion that he was an idiot. Getting an extra pair of helping hands does not seem like an "idiot" thing to me. Making sure that everyone's time is spent well in the drug store does not feel like a dumb decision. Suggesting to bunker down in the Motor Inn for the time being is not a "stupid" suggestion. Forcing Lee to stop fiddling with the trap so that you still have time to escape from the walkers is not "unintelligent". Wanting to leave the Motor Inn instead of possibly starving to death is not a "fool's" notion. And, would you look at that! I have come up with just as many specific examples as you have (and my evidence is only for his intelligence, I'm sure the evidence for his bravery would put me over here) - so if we're playing tit for tat, then why wouldn't the good necessarily outweigh the bad?
As far as the "courage" part, in hindsight you can always say that the situation was not that dangerous. The fact of the matter was that Kenny had not been in the Drug Store since before Doug/Carley's death. Going back to the store to save Lee put him in unknown danger, especially if you consider that they had just lost a member of the group to Walkers in there. He could have possibly just walked into a hot bed of Walkers and gotten himself killed, all to save Lee's life - the point is that he didn't know it was "safe" to go back, and that's what makes it a courageous act.
Sure, you can claim that he has done a few stupid things...but for that matter, so has Glenn, Carley, Doug, and even Lee (remember, he also stands around shouting in Clementine's yard, even though there were walkers just on the other side of the fence that he knew about!). I could even make the argument that it was Kenny's shouting that got them saved, because it is possible that the group in the drugstore would have never known they were out there, otherwise.
Besides, I've already offered my assessment of the man. Where you say "cowardly", I would say "panicked". Where you say "stupid" I would say "brash". It's clear from the connotatively negative words that you pick means that you think of Kenny as a bad man. That is why I will never be able to agree with you.
He needs you to feel safer.
Which is really odd indeed. First of all, he is the only one that doesn't do anything. He just sits there, basically doing nothing. He was the one to alert the zombies. He didn't check his son for bites but then openly attack the group that just saved their lives. Plus, no one has appointed him for a leader. He can hardly make a decision without Lee.
Again he is the first one to run away and later comes to find you because you are the closest thing he has to an ally. He needs and he clearly doesn't care about you as shown in EP 2.
He doesn't watch your back... Mark watches your back better than him. He just complains that he is wasting ammo, putting pressure on the situation and making you rush your decision. After that he keeps his "I'm the leader" attitude.
Kenny is the same character in every possible playthrough. If he wasn't than the game wouldn't be interesting. He may be friendly to you, but the very moment you stop following his lead, he will show his true colours.
Haven't you all had a friend that you knew wasn't a real friend despite your friendly relationship with him. And when one day this friendliness fades, you can see that person for whom they really are.
Sisterofshane, I will laugh really hard when Kenny does something to your Lee, despite your friendliness with him. Then I will come back to this topic and wait you to come and start defending his next fucked-up decision.
Kenny can never be a leader, because the leader needs to take initiative. Kenny never does anything, he always waits for Lee to do them and then criticize. Lilly was the one to ration the food and take the blame from all, Lee was the one to save Carley/Doug, go for gas, find the key and decide whether to give the gun to the bitten girl or not. He then decides if he should chop the teacher's leg and kills the zombie. He goes to the Dairy first, he helps there, he goes to the forest to look for the bandits, HE DISCOVERS THE TRUTH ABOUT THE BACK DOOR AT THE BARN, he founds Mark, he prevents the rest from eating, he find the way out of the meat locker, he deals with Danny, Andy and with Brenda.
The only thing that Kenny ever did on his own was to finish Larry. What kind of leadership skills do we exactly talk about? Since when is simple bossing called leadership. Kenny is the worst person for a leader. I can't really get how you claim otherwise.
Besides, I try not to judge people for their decisions unless they deliberately try to screw me over. I think I would be more disappointed in Tell Tale if they decide to go this route than I would be with Kenny's character.
I didn't explain good. Kenny it's my friend, I'll defend him and his family and I trust him. But if in the future I disagree with him in something and he treats me like crap then (like in your gameplay), he would disappoint me and I would be over with him.
For that reason I said "I see your point now, Kenny haters". You must replay Episode 2 to see the "Kenny supporter" point of view.
Think through and remember, please. He lets you coming with his family along when Hershel's kicked them out. He saves your life when Larry tries to kill Lee... even when you treated like crap (if you chose not saving Duck). He comes running to help when he hears the teacher screaming believing that was Lee or Mark. He helps you out with Danny at the barn.
For me that it's not being a coward at all.
I'm agree with him at crushing Larry's head at the meat locker. We cannot afford to risk that someone like Larry comes back as a zombie when we are locked up. We cannot count on Lilly, I would bet that she couldn't kill to zombified Larry version. It would be 2 starving and weak people vs zombie Larry.
I'm agree with him at picking up the car trunk's content.
I'm agree with him when he suspects something about the St. John's family. I was suspecting too before him.
I disagree when he starts saying that we would take the dairy for us. Sometimes he says stupid things like this or smashing the barn's door but It's the situation (and he's not perfect, he's human, like us). Glad Lee it's there to say to Kenny that was a bad idea.
You may get disappointed and I believe you just don't really understand Kenny's personality. Of course, it might be the other way around. We will see
LOL, I was about to post that either one of us could be proved wrong in future episodes, but once again we see eye to eye!:p
YOU BASTARDS!
I admit I'm kinda looking forward to when (/if) Kenny dies in the game so I can say that.
With that name it would be a shame if he didn't die...
This IS The Walking Dead, so...if not this season, then maybe the next?
Lee can be the perfect combination of the two. Time for him to take charge!
You can be his best buddy to the meat locker scene and after that he will leave you to rot. Nice friends you make guys
P.S Have you noticed how many times Kenny says "sorry"? He does something stupid and he says "sorry". He lets Shawn get eaten and he says "sorry". He make racist remarks to Lee and he says "sorry". He kills Larry and he says "sorry".
Well guess what. I will quote Hershel Greene "Sorry, SORRY? Your son is alive, you don't get to be sorry!"
exactly, he's not a true friend
i want to like kenny but i just cant. i can tell he's the type of person that would stab me in the back at the drop of a dime unless i'm 110% loyal to his decisions
Well Ive been known to say sorry a lot too, that's just a personality thing, you cant blame him for that. His actions yeah maybe haaha
You can't just let a boy die/kill a guy and say "sorry".
he gives you a ride to Macon (because he needs someone who can bust a few heads)
delegates jobs in the store (Doug, you just keep doin what you are already doin...Carley, I need you ready to save my fam again, Me and Kat are just going to sit here a do absolutly nothing...thanks)
comes back for Lee (wow, only one zombie and he is facing away from me, axe...come on Lee, I just rescued you so you gotta be my toady now)
comes running when the teacher screams thinking it mite be Lee (wheres the proof he thought that, he very well could of been hiding and watching untill he saw Lee show up)
Now bad points for Kenny:
doesn't help shawn with fence (no need for me to repay you for allowing me and my family a place to stay)
doesnt help shawn (even stares a few seconds before he runs off)
gets zombies after everyone (hey guys, you freindly)
doesn't help carley and lee fight off thos zombies (Im just to scared)
is confrontational with Lilly and Lary in drugstore even before Larry noticed duck (How dare you say that your group shouldnt risk itself for my benifit)
...now I could list many more bad points but as the bad is already winning I will stop there...if I missed any good ones just let me know
also, whether you say cowardly and stupid or panicky and brash doesnt matter...you dont need a leader (or member) with those charectoristics
yeah totally agree with that man, theres certain stuff that sorry wont fix, like bashing some ones head in;)
Bashing some corpse's head in, you meant. Larry was dead. It's something tragic but they needed to do that.
I thought that the walking deads were the bad guys here. Now ensure that a corpse won't wake up is it bad? Wow, you will survive in TWD universe... like 5 or 10 minutes. :rolleyes:
The_Ripper, I'm sorry but you are the one who won't last long. Once you off someone from your group because "you know he was dead" (despite there's absolutely no proof of that), be prepared to be left to die the first time you are in any danger. Nobody tolerates cowards.
Have the **lls to do the right thing despite being so tough it's being coward?
You would wait to let someone converts and fight with the zombie using your bare hands being yourself starved and weak?
Do you want proofs? Larry it's not breathing. He has no pulse. Man, what else do you want?
Yeah, you would last so long too.
Pointless going over the same old tired points but to suggest he WAS dead is just silly, hundreds of thousands of people are resuscitated through CPR every year.
"Having the balls to do the right thing" would have been to take the risks and try to save a mans life, not kill him because he MIGHT turn into a zombie in 5 minutes time.
And the fact you have no pulse does not mean you are dead, it means your heart has stopped hence the need for CPR.
Lee and Lilly wasn't insuflating air to Larry, that was not a CPR.
Maybe a CR :rolleyes:, so neither Lee or Lilly knew how to make a CPR. Hence, Larry it's condemned and dead.
http://www.bhf.org.uk/heart-health/life-saving-skills/hands-only-cpr.aspx
I guess we have different understanding of what "Having the balls to do the right thing" truly means. I agree with Kinky John Fowler completely.
The_Ripper if you want to bring back the "was Larry really dead" topic just read the last ten pages. I'm sorry but I'm tired of recycling same arguments with the same people over and over again.
Hey i was happy to smash his head, if there was an option to do it myself, i would have. Hated that guy.
And in response to myself surviving in TWD, I live in Manhattan so I don't think I'd even be able to get out of my apartment building haha
I was watching the web... It's very interesting that campaign.
However making a RCP doesn't make to one person wake up if he or she had a cardiac arrest. Maybe this is ok for people that drawned. Increases probability of recovery once the ambulance reaches to the place. But at TWD time there's no hospitals or ambulances.
From Wikipedia:
As someone who just re certified my CPR licence, this was straight up taught me. We are just doing it till someone with advanced life support arrives. Hence why they stress that for adults, even before starting CPR, you call someone so they can be on the way.
On kids, you do 5 cycles of CPR, then you all someone. Either way, calling someone to come back you up/advanced life support equipment is very important. CPR is not to bring anyone back, but to prevent brain death from lack of oxygen.
While playing my "Lilly for the Win" version, when the time came, and Kenny presented the plan to Lee, he says, "You've NEVER had my back, but this is the time. I need you to back me up THIS TIME."
I have a feeling if you followed Lilly all the way until that moment, it may mean Kenny puts you on his side in his mind because you sided with him on that decision.