Boobs: an artistic discussion
Secret Fawful wrote: »I decided to do some Morgan fanart, since I've barely contributed to this topic at all. And I used the opportunity to try a bit of a new style.
Sketch to Finished Product-
That looks great! I love Winslow's expression.
And I also agree that Thriller Guybrush needs to be an official smiley.
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Comments
What well-endowed is varies from character to character. For instance I'm working on fanart of Elaine right now, and even though she's well endowed, her face and hair takes up more of the viewer's attention, and the picture is more serene. Morgan is very well built, and becomes the "butt" of jokes for it, but Elaine is much classier. Morgan is destined to become the Jessica Rabbit of the pirate world, sultry and sly, but for now she's very young and naive and has a lot to learn.
but it may be for the best I do not want to be responsible for melting the internets
But... Morgan doesn't even have big breasts to begin with >.>
She's got wide hips and big sizes, but she's got some kind of chest-flattening corset or something. The kind that gives you cleavage but from the side you're all flat, you know?
Anyways, I was just making a joke there
I really didn't see Morgan as anything like Jessica Rabbit, though, I have to say. She's not trying to seduce anyone and she feels pretty tomboyish to me. She just happens to be a woman, that's all.
And yeah, she didn't originally have big breasts. Its just how I tend to draw female characters, but I keep meaning to practice NOT doing that.
Thanks!
I think it's a bit like you tend to see males drawn either all skinny or all muscular, but more rarely with a more reasonable amount of muscles that's not all over the place.
Especially when you're less experienced.
Any way, it can be a style too, the question is just whether it's intended or nor :P
What seems the weirdest in the drawing his her head being small and her neck long, although that's the case in the game too, you just accentuated it.
I think her shoulders are too broad. My general rule tends to be to draw males with broader shoulders than hips and females with broader hips than shoulders (androgynous people with both the same width). That seems especially true for Morgan due to her hips/thighs area being her main "feature", let's say.
However she is strong an athletic so I guess the muscular shapes too. I'd say you can have somewhat broad shoulders, but I'd make them just a bit more narrow.
The arm that goes behind her back also feels a bit weird. It seems to be in front of her torso (not her breast, the side of her torso) but should it be behind it? As in, shouldn't her side hide part of her arm rather than the other way around? (That's y gut feeling but I could be wrong).
Also, it makes you wonder exactly where and how is her hand. I think it might have looked better if you could see just a bit of it.
Her waist looks very good, as does the cleavage (just so you don't think I hate everything about your drawing xD I like a lot of things about it actually but since you said you wanted comments...)
Again, sketch to final-
High-Res Image
Okay, I lied a bit, she's well-endowed too, but I think this time her face and hair are the most defining features.
I think the harder thing about drawing breasts is the weight. Trying to remember that large breasts are held down by weight and that small ones aren't is hard to portray on paper, and I have a much harder time with that. Also keeping them proportionally correct and sitting how they normally would; very tough. As far as drawing more unique breasts that are in-between the extremes, I think a lot of webcomic artists tend to do this and do it very well, especially the artist for the webcomic Questionable Content.
In my case, it usually is, unless the character calls for something different.
Very good observation. This is a common mistake I make quite often, and one of my biggest foils as an artist. I constantly tend to draw the shoulders too broad, because I have a hard time sensing what is too slouched and what is too raised. Although in this case, it was because I made the upper half of her torso so wide. It's something I'll watch for in the future, and something I think I've managed to avoid in the fanart of Elaine.
It's not in front of it, but next to it, and as far as the arm being behind the back, that's due to the "sway" she does as she walks, as Irishmile described. However, I think I gave her a bit TOO MUCH sway, and as I look at it, and even tried to walk that way myself to test it, if she walked with her hip extended that far compared to the swing of her arms, she would instantly fall over. Because I instantly fell over.
Yeah, I agree. The arm was a bad design decision. I probably should have outlined her fingers where she is holding her sword as well.
Well, I admit if someone told me "That looks like crap! Never draw that again!" I would feel bad, but it would just make me try harder. I appreciate all critique. I post art partially to get constructive criticism, and if I don't, it actually disappoints me a bit. I'm glad you liked it.
EDIT: Just to note, I'm better at drawing well-endowed women than I am at drawing muscular men.
np: Autechre - Perlence (Quaristice)
I think you're doing fine. Some people draw them much too round or pointing in front of them or something and it can look pretty weird. While you remember that the nipple is lower than the middle and to the outside, not to the front, so they do look rather natural, if pretty big.
For Elaine, the only thing I'd add is to remember the skin of the breast goes under the arm. what I mean is, on her right breast (right for us), the line almost goes up to where her arm starts, I think it would look more natural for it to be lower than that, or point towards her back a bit rather than towards her neck.
Here, to show you what I mean:
Other than that, and that's going to sound bad, just remember breasts are sacks of fat. Think water balloon. It's filled with liquid, pretty much (behaves like it at least). So when the breasts are a smaller size, movement is limited because there isn't much skin, it's tightly contained if you will. When they get bigger, though, they have more room for movement so they're going to behave more liquidy.
For instance, if a woman is on her back, her breasts will spread and flatten. So less breast on top of the torso (and more importantly not seeming to point up in any way, unless you're drying to draw fake breasts such as implants), more on the sides (but remember the clothes will limit movement too.) If the breasts are rather small they might just seem to vanish, if they're huge they'll pretty much go completely to the sides.
When standing, it's kind of the same principle starting at a certain size. They're going to be weighed down as you said (more or less depending on their clothes, think sports bra vs no bra for instance) but they'll also tend to go to the sides, away from each other (there again, more or less depending on the clothes).
But you probably know all of that already >.>
In the Elaine drawing, apart from the earlier modification I mentioned, I would probably draw the left (our left) nipple a bit lower (not by a lot).
That's possible, although remember she's a woman and you're not. Because of wider hips, the center of gravity is placed differently: men having narrower hips, their feet are closer together, are the closer the feet, the less balance you get (try swaying with your feet glued together, you'll see :P). So women can sway more than men without falling (women with broad hips at least).
I notice that in the two drawings you posted, there are 4 people altogether and only one visible hand. Now, hands are tricky but if you never draw them it can look like you're avoiding that on purpose, making sure they're right out of the drawing and such (which might be what you're doing).
Plus, they can be really useful. Think hand on hips, crossed arms, scratching a head, etc. Not showing hands limits what the character can do since it also limits their arm movements.
Good thing I'm not the only one who spotted that.
That style reminds me of Jollyjack too much, it's uncanny.
Wow, this is the second best breast description I've ever read.
You seem to know quite a bit about them.
And good of you to notice the hand thing.
Hands are tough, but if they work, they pay... (What a strange sentence.)
I didn't actually. I've always just drawn breasts how I see them in real life or how I've seen them drawn, I've never known WHY they do what they do. I know some basic principles like weight, but only BASIC principles. Thanks! I agree, you know quite a lot.
Okay.
Oh, but doesn't it hurt to walk with THAT much sway?
I wasn't avoiding them, I can post a drawing where I've drawn hands if you like.
Good eye. I draw a lot of inspiration from Jollyjack, but I'm not NEARLY as good as he is nor is my style so clean. We tend to draw women in a very similar way, though. Also, while I might draw well-endowed women, if I drew women nearly as well-endowed as he does (Example) I would probably have a long lynch mob at my door.
About 70% of the artists listed affect how I draw male characters, and about 30% of them affect how I draw female characters. Basically, if I don't study great styles, I'll never improve my own.
Thanks!
Mh, it's probably not very comfortable. I can't say I've tried
My point was more that
a) it makes it look like you're avoiding to draw them (probably because a lot of people do)
b) hands can be pretty expressive so it feels (to me) like a shame to have them off-screen.
I don't need proof of anything, but you're welcome to post more drawings of course.
EDIT: @Irishmile: I love drawing animals. In fact I draw more anthropomorphic characters than human, and the first things I drew were animals.
Hope I wasn't late to the constructive criticism party! I just wanted to mention a few things that haven't been brought up yet.
See what's happening to the fabric in-between the breasts; it's not clinging, but rather it's just stretching from boob-to-boob. With the exception of spandex and other dance/fitness knits, no fabric can cling to every inch of a woman's rack, especially if she's got a large one. This is true even when she's got cleavage like that... but of course, I'm not sure if she should even be having that much cleavage anyway (see bulletpoint #3).
(By the way, if drawing well-endowed women is your thing, you really ought to study this guy's art if you haven't already. I assure you that every Western professional 'sexy girl' artist today was influenced one way or another by Frank Frazetta. Also, here's the full image.)
Notice that the top of her breast is almost a flat plane instead of being swollen. Even if they're large, breasts are just naturally going to sag a little without some support. Which brings me to my next point...
Lastly...
Now, I'm not saying that your proportions are Liefeld-caliber, but they're a little too close for comfort right now. Part of the problem, I think, is that you've drawn a woman who has an enormous chest but looks to be starving underneath her skintight clothes. Unless you get surgery, that just isn't possible. Take a look at Bruce Timm's Wonder Woman picture. Girl's got a heck of a waist, fo' sho, but at least she has a normal-sized chest to balance it out (also notice that her breasts are round and perky only because her costume has support, and even then, there's still a visible gap between them). Now take a look at Rob Liefeld's picture. He tried to go all the way by giving the woman a huge chest (and a huge, oblong ribcage for some reason) and a stick waist, and the results are terrible. The key to exaggeration is to purposefully exaggerate body parts in a way that makes sense. Bruce Timm knows that; Rob Liefeld doesn't.
Also, notice that, like you, Liefeld decided to accentuate her ribcage, which is definitely what completes the 'starved' look. That is the main difference between someone who's just thin and someone who's anorexic: whether or not you can see his or her ribcage sticking out. So unless you want an anorexic look, you ought to put on some flesh between the ribcage and waist. Not only will Elaine look healthier, but it will actually help define her waist better!
Okay, so, that's all I can think of for now. Since you mentioned earlier that you want to start drawing women with smaller or at least normal-sized breasts, I'm going to direct you to some excellent sites for reference pictures of women in a variety of poses. However, since there's a lot of nudity (albeit tasteful, artistic nudity) on these sites, I'm just going to send them to you in a PM so I don't get banned. So take at look at those, draw some more, and have fun!
I love how you illustrated it all with various references.
Well, to start off, I will say that I did give the left (our left) breast a little too much lift. As far as the cling, actually fabric can cling to a woman like that, although not in the cleavage, which you can see here -
A difference here is that my breast is higher than hers is. However, Elaine's right breast I do believe carries perfect weight and is low enough. As far as the cleavage, there's a simple reason why there's too much. I drew the entire outline of the breasts, which was a bad decision. I didn't have any reasoning for it, and it does show my inexperience with breasts. I definitely don't think that the fabric can cling to the cleavage as I drew it, but I do think that it can cling to the outside areas as I drew it. Now, one big difference between Elaine and the example I posted as well is that the woman in the example has implants, and Elaine does not. However, the reason Elaine looks as if she does is because I wasn't really interested in drawing the breasts realistically when I did, and wanted to exaggerate and balloon them. Anyway, you're correct, cleavage = not right. So I fixed it. I also fixed the right boob as avistew suggested.
CHANGE 1-
In this case, I did draw it as in the picture you posted, but the way I drew it masks that because of the way the outlines are drawn, outside of the waist.
As you can see the outlines are basically the same, but the outlines of her coat gets in the way of the outline of the folds around her actual breast in her shirt. The main problem is that the left breast is still a little too high. So I fixed that too. I had to significantly reduce the top of the breast, but it's much more..er...fixed now.
CHANGE 2-
She wasn't supposed to be wearing a bra. I rarely put enough thought into drawing breasts, with my inexperience in that matter, to draw it as if the woman is wearing a bra, so I throw the bra out altogether. I know as I get better, that will leave and I'll be able to work some bra-tastic magic. Since the "epic cleavage
The exaggerated waist is due to the fact that I study Roger Jackson's art style, and his art tends to..well..
yeah. As well as Shirow Masamune, who also tends to do anorexic waists (and everything else) up the wazoo-
However, I don't ALWAYS draw the exaggerated waist.
I also study and tend to imitate Bruce Timm a lot when it comes to women, as well as Utility Pole Spirit, who draws a lot of large breasts mixed with wide waists-
However in this case, I think again its a matter of the outlines messing up the impression. I wasn't emphasizing her ribs (ugh! nasty! I despise it when artists show ribs through the skin). Here I'll show you what I mean.
Here is where her waist is, and the actual outline of it, and here-
-is where her hips are. The "emphasizing of her ribs" is just the folds and form of her clothing, but I tend to draw those folds at that area of the body more jagged, while I draw folds on the sleeves and pants round and loopy.
So I widened the waist a bit and removed or shortened the folds so its easier to see the waist outline. If it's still too thin, let me know.
Final Change-
I can draw women with more normal sized breasts, and do, just not as often as the well-endowed I showcased here. It's not that I want to stop drawing well-endowed, I just want to draw equally of both, and I definitely thank you for the references you sent me.
EDIT: I noticed in the picture you posted of Frazetta's drawing that my waist was still off on the left side, so I edited it again.
Try to draw a spine to the "Not sexy" picture. Disturbing.
Well, I was specifically referring to how it doesn't cling to the cleavage. Sorry if I wasn't clear the first time around. Still, it isn't because of the fabric that the jacket is form-fitting, it's just tailored that way. But I digress, really... I guess I'm still a little confused as to why you gave Elaine skin-tight clothes in the first place, since that's not what she wears in the game (her vest and blouse are very loose) and it doesn't really fit her character. If Elaine wanted to be sexy, she wouldn't be wearing a tight blouse with no breast support, she'd be wearing fishnets and a corset or something.
Okay, I'm now going to get into something that I should have brought up in my first post: Elaine isn't exactly the bustiest girl, so I'm not really sure why you drew her as such. Honestly, she's a C-cup at most. The whole point of exaggeration is to take what's especially obvious of a figure and, well, exaggerate it. Taking Elane's bust, which is average-sized at best, and enlarging it a lot isn't exaggeration, it's modifying her character completely. With Elaine (at least in Tales), her most obvious feature is her hips, so why not focus on those? It's good that you took out the cleavage, though, and I like the creases on the fabric.
Eh, I think the top of her left breast could still be a tad flatter, but the main issue is ultimately that her breasts are too big. Still, looks a lot better than before.
Not to be rude, but... drawing women with breast support isn't as hard as you make it out to be. Just study women with actual clothes on. Again, it's really out-of-character for Elaine to be going out like that, so I don't know why you've drawn her like that. On a sidenote, though, I've heard that Elaine probably wears a corset instead of a bra, as was custom back in that age. But then again, this is Monkey Island, so anything goes I guess!
UHHHHHH... I wouldn't... copy that guy's art, or at least copy his proportions. I know this is going to sound rude, but it looks like this guy learned his anatomy from Rob Liefeld, and that's reeeeeally not something to be proud of.
Actually, I wouldn't call that anorexic. In fact, she looks very athletic; look at those abs, man! And notice that her hips and bust are fairly small as well (well, okay, her bust is a little big in proportion to the rest of her body, but it isn't over-the-top so it's believable), so overall she's got a pretty well-proportioned body.
Okay, I'm kind of tired at this point and I'm not sure if I'd be able to explain myself correctly with words, so screw it. Look at the redlining below and if you have any questions about it, go ahead and shoot:
Well, you've definitely improved the shape of the breasts, that's for sure. But, really... At this point, I guess I'm really curious to know why you draw Elaine and Morgan with such exaggerated breasts in the first place. Don't take this the wrong way, there's nothing inherently wrong with drawing big breasts, but drawing them on characters that don't have them in the first place?
I don't usually like fan art that much, but this way, I keep watching. ^^
Yeah but I could very well draw elaine with man proportions and say that's just the way i draw fan art of elaine. ...oh wait.
Yes, I did recently try out Phoenix Wright. Why do you ask?
[edit] just don't copy Rob Liefeld's style, lol.[/edit]
Agreed.
For some reason, I'm hearing the voice of Linkara in my head saying "...the alchemy machine from Sultry Teenage Super Foxes #1 that turns dog poop into gold."
Yeah, but, I asked for the critique. I don't mind; it's part of why I post art.
It's not that I feel like the drawings were terrible to begin with, or terrible at all, nor do I feel obligated to please everybody. I'm just willing to show that I don't know everything, and accept advice from others willing to share it.
May I offer one piece of advice too: You need to tone down her left eye a bit. As it is now, it looks like it goes all the way to her ear.
All of Doctor Cello's points are very good... though I notice they don't seem to be in this thread, which is a pity. (ETA: Fixed! Never mind!) I think I've developed a tolerance to seeing women with relatively small chests being drawn with much larger... assets, mostly thanks to DC comics (WTF Harley Quinn is not a D-cup!) and Rule #34. Also, proportions in Tales are pretty skewy to begin with, exhibit A: Morgan. She might not have a large chest, but she has HUEG hips and thighs, and tiny, tiny ankles. A lot of fanart I've seen of her seems to reduce the size of her thighs and add it on to her chest instead. For the record, my personal theory is that despite her curvy hips, Morgan is not naturally well-endowed in the breast department, and wears a corset to give herself the cleavage that she would otherwise lack.
Also, failure to understand how breasts work is not necessarily confined to men. My mother once asked me "don't your breasts get in the way?" in regards to sleeping with other women, and I had to point out that no, they're not airbags. Apparently the topic had come up in conversation at her work, and naturally her response to her co-workers was 'I know, I'll ask my gay daughter'. Sigh.
Being busty isn't always a matter of trying to look sexy. If you got it, there's nothing you can do about it.
Different interpretation. My Elaine is busty. Theirs is not. In my opinion Elaine from the first two games is bustier than what she is now, but there's no real evidence to support this. It's just my opinion, and shes still never been as busty as I made her.
It's hard for me, at least right now anyway. That'll leave me in time.
You explained yourself great so far, and I still appreciate the effort you put into your critique.
Like I said. Different interpretation. The essence of the characters isn't going to leave them with an enhanced bust. If you want it to be canon, we can say that while sparring in the jungle, Elaine and Morgan fell into a mysterious pool that grew their breasts to enormous proportions.
Sure.
As far as DC Comics, another artist I study is Jim Lee, however, moreso in how he draws men. I dislike how he draws his characters in one sense though because they all look the same.
I'm used to people drawing huge breasts and you're not as bad as some people I know. And I personally don't see it as a "canon" representation of either Morgan or Elaine, so I see the bigger-than-they-should be breasts as absolutely voluntary and put there because you want it so. Which you know, why not, I guess.
A woman with these kind of breasts is never going to look 100% realistic, even if you make her less thin. However the changes you made help a lot, and I'm pretty sure you weren't trying to be realistic in the first place.
I've been thinking of posting pictures to help with the physics of it but I need y husband back so he can take them. So maybe tomorrow or later tonight.
Anyway, I do have to say a few things:
a) You didn't give her helium breasts. They do have some gravity to them. They're not super-high or anything. That's one mistake that really makes breasts look fake so it's good that you didn't make it.
b) Although these breasts are too big for my (and a lot of people's) conception of Elaine, they are still a realistic size. It's possible to have breasts that size. So what I mean is she still looks human, which is nice.
I find it funny that we're commenting so much on her breasts when her face is definitely not realistic at all and apart from the comment on the one eye, nobody seems to have a problem with that :P
...you know, that sounds like some grade-A crack!fic material...