I felt the same way about Ben. There are many bandits and they would have known about the motel. (The traumatised woman was able to view the motel from one of their camps.) By trading food and supplies, Ben kept the bandits from raiding the group.
But yeah, his secrecy was stupid. He should have explained the situation and let group members leave or stay. :P
No, because he's a coward when dealing with the rest of the group, which is Ben's fault. ...IMO the root cause of the problem was Ben trying to be a diplomat rather than doing his job.
He's a 17-year-old boy, without family, in a group of strangers he's known for a week, in the middle of a zombie apocalypse.
I felt the same way about Ben. There are many bandits and they would have known about the motel. (The traumatised woman was able to view the motel from one of their camps.) By trading food and supplies, Ben kept the bandits from raiding the group.
But yeah, his secrecy was stupid. He should have explained the situation and let group members leave or stay. :P
No his secrecy probably saved his life, it wasn't stupid, it was selfish, as is evident from my massive numerated post.
I don't see how Lilly's actions can be justified as logical. She was logical when she said a witch hunt would be ridiculous, but she betrayed that bit of logic. Her dealing with the bandits and the situation wasn't logical, it was instinctive and emotional.
Think about it, why did she need to shoot who ever the traitor was? Because in her mindset everyone was willing to shoot her in the face as much she was them, that's not logical, that's lacking understanding of those around her, that's refusal to take the time to think about why the traitor was doing this, it wasn't logic, it was emotion.
If anything Ben was the most logical, if we grant that his actions were thought out, My big numerated post shows that a very logical path can be found to the choice Ben made. Not that getting into that mess in the first place wasn't stupid though.
Also Lilly is the one alone, and Ben is the still in the group, so from an absolutist perspective clearly Lilly did something wrong and Ben did something right.
He's a 17-year-old boy, without family, in a group of strangers he's known for a week, in the middle of a zombie apocalypse.
Making how he behaved understandable but not tolerable, IMO. In the ZA, people either adapt, die, or latch onto a group that they indirectly destroy and Ben showed which category he was in. Maybe he'll change, maybe he'll stay the same, but I know I wouldn't gamble with half of another team to find out, especially one with Clem, Kenny, and Chuck.
So you'd rather pull a Lilly and play judge, jury and executioner?
Nah, I'd only play judge and jury and tell Ben to start walking. Maybe, I'd also give him a pep talk on teamwork in the hopes that he'll do better if he has the luck to join another group. IMO, the first priority in a ZA is the safety of the group and keeping around somebody whose performance has ranged from near uselessness to indirect destruction of half the group doesn't help that. And I wouldn't kick him out just because I'm mad at him, the kid f-ing scares me, it's only one week and he wrecked the group worse than the walkers, bandits, or the St. Johns.
He still caused the chain of events that led to that.
He might not have pulled the trigger, but he set the events in motion that led to that.
And besides, even if we overlook Carley/Doug's demise, Duck getting bitten, Kat's suicide and Lilly's exile.... he is still fully responsible for stealing from the group.
Stealing meds, which might have been needed to keep the group well or even alive.
And while I tend to question some of Lilly's rants, I agree with her 100% on the theft issue... stealing from the group, he may as well have slit someone's throat while they slept.
He should have owned up to it instead of letting a woman take the blame. And his actions led to the deaths of 3 people. There is no "defence of Ben" in my opinion.
I really hope he is taken out sooner than later and I hope Kenny gets to do it.
Bleeding hearts will be wave 1 of casualties in a ZA.
Deer in headlight types like Ben realistically wouldnt have made it this far and people who let emotions cloud their judgement simply wont be able to see a clear and present danger in Ben and how much of a liability he is to the entire group, they'll most likely die as well. Not to walkers directly, but letting irrational thinking like how 'nice' a person is as opposed to how effective or how much of a contribution he brings to the group. One person causes the death of three. Then lies about it to the point that he'll let another die (one way more valuable than him), and you bring this thing along with you to further jeopardize the lives of your remaining group? Laughable.
It's what it is. Why would anyone want to carry on being around someone who would turn around and shoot them without a second thought? They think someone has is a 'liability' , so kills them (or leaving them, could easily be the same thing in the ZA). That is cold blooded. Doing something without thinking of the consequences, or doing somethig in a moment of rage, is really nothing compared to that. In that case, you could be seen as the liability. When are you going to decide someone is no longer useful?
Because no one said 'Welcome to the group Ben, please be effective or we'll kill you' so your argument kinda makes no sense.
He didnt have that looming over his head.
I'll rephrase- If a bunch of people save your ass from walkers and then bring you back to their shelter and start taking care of you like one of their own, I think the least amount of appreciation you can show is to be upfront and honest about situations you clearly cannot manage on your own.
Yeah, he could have been honest, but he wouldn't know how things would turn out. We pretty much know how things will turn out if we leave him behind or something. He is unlikely superhero type, but doubt that he is a superhero.
Bleeding hearts will be wave 1 of casualties in a ZA.
Deer in headlight types like Ben realistically wouldnt have made it this far and people who let emotions cloud their judgement simply wont be able to see a clear and present danger in Ben and how much of a liability he is to the entire group, they'll most likely die as well. Not to walkers directly, but letting irrational thinking like how 'nice' a person is as opposed to how effective or how much of a contribution he brings to the group. One person causes the death of three. Then lies about it to the point that he'll let another die (one way more valuable than him), and you bring this thing along with you to further jeopardize the lives of your remaining group? Laughable.
Now my posts were in response to you deciding who was more valuable, who's a liability etc.
I understand now. That's not so much an attack on Ben as my own personal outlook. In that post Im basically saying, if someone is really nice and dumb as rocks, you have to give serious thought "Is keeping this person around in the best interest of the survival of the group?"
From a ZA perspective, how many times can you allow for stupid? How many people is it acceptable to allow to die before you have to get rid of the problem? Apparently 3 isnt the magic number for some in here but is for me
My biggest grip is that it none of this was an accident and all of it was totally avoidable.
Ben had the choice to nip this in the bud and didnt. That was a conscious decision on his part.
My biggest grip is that it none of this was an accident and all of it was totally avoidable.
Ben had the choice to nip this in the bud and didnt. That was a conscious decision on his part.
Exactly. It was avoidable, but it wasn't all Ben. He's a KID, he's been with the group a week and they slap a gun in his hands and stick him on watch. You're right, he is/was a liability and trust is earned. He hadn't earned the trust to accept the responsibilities given him. Someone should have taken him under their wing and coached him along.
But, how do you teach common sense? Show him how to aim; how to detect walkers from afar; how to spot wild berries, ok
How could anyone be prepared for:
Hey Ben if you find any strangers in the woods, avoid making deal with them with our supplies. And if you must, please notify someone
lol, you see?
If you and I were in a group, I would never tell you that because wouldnt it just be assumed that if you ever spotted danger like that, you'd tell me?
Maybe it's me, maybe I'm overestimating human thought, but it seems like a no brainer
If you and I were in a group, I would never tell you that because wouldnt it just be assumed that if you ever spotted danger like that, you'd tell me?
You and I aren't children (at least I presume you're not). Had someone invested some time in the kid it would have bred confidence, trust and loyalty. As it was he was scared, uncertain, alienated and acted in his own best interests. Ben is a wasted asset.
Ben was a passive zeta-male from the get-go. That doesn't exactly breed confidence in his capabilities.
I mean, his "friend" convinced him to STFU because said friend's father was special forces so that his "friend" (AKA Mr Bullet Catcher or Zombie Bait depending on choices) could "handle" it... lol
If Ben hadn't gotten a clue in the first 3 months (pre-E2) I don't think he can.
EDIT:
Of course, maybe he's the mental version of the "ugly ducking" and he's just waiting for his moment to shine... though, several moments have passed already...
There we go. I finally converted you!
I'm never coming back!
/thread
All jokes aside, I really do understand the Ben defenders. Kicking him out is the same as death, I know this. But (in a ZA) better him than me. Like I said in another thread, Im planning on crossing the ZA finish fine and I wont be able to do that with 'Ben-types' in the group.
Who knows, we could start Ep4 with Lee doing just that: breaking it all down to Ben, and what's expected of him as a group member as they chug into Savannah
Comments
But yeah, his secrecy was stupid. He should have explained the situation and let group members leave or stay. :P
He's a 17-year-old boy, without family, in a group of strangers he's known for a week, in the middle of a zombie apocalypse.
My point being that there was a lot of stupidity and not all of it was Ben's.
No his secrecy probably saved his life, it wasn't stupid, it was selfish, as is evident from my massive numerated post.
Think about it, why did she need to shoot who ever the traitor was? Because in her mindset everyone was willing to shoot her in the face as much she was them, that's not logical, that's lacking understanding of those around her, that's refusal to take the time to think about why the traitor was doing this, it wasn't logic, it was emotion.
If anything Ben was the most logical, if we grant that his actions were thought out, My big numerated post shows that a very logical path can be found to the choice Ben made. Not that getting into that mess in the first place wasn't stupid though.
Also Lilly is the one alone, and Ben is the still in the group, so from an absolutist perspective clearly Lilly did something wrong and Ben did something right.
I would like to refer you to word I used: Absolutist. There is no "more wrong".
But yeah point taken. Though to be honest there's not much right in a zombie apocalypse.
So you'd rather pull a Lilly and play judge, jury and executioner?
Send him packing and you might as well shoot him. That kid's a snack pack with legs.
He might not have pulled the trigger, but he set the events in motion that led to that.
And besides, even if we overlook Carley/Doug's demise, Duck getting bitten, Kat's suicide and Lilly's exile.... he is still fully responsible for stealing from the group.
Stealing meds, which might have been needed to keep the group well or even alive.
And while I tend to question some of Lilly's rants, I agree with her 100% on the theft issue... stealing from the group, he may as well have slit someone's throat while they slept.
I really hope he is taken out sooner than later and I hope Kenny gets to do it.
Deer in headlight types like Ben realistically wouldnt have made it this far and people who let emotions cloud their judgement simply wont be able to see a clear and present danger in Ben and how much of a liability he is to the entire group, they'll most likely die as well. Not to walkers directly, but letting irrational thinking like how 'nice' a person is as opposed to how effective or how much of a contribution he brings to the group. One person causes the death of three. Then lies about it to the point that he'll let another die (one way more valuable than him), and you bring this thing along with you to further jeopardize the lives of your remaining group?
Laughable.
That is also pretty simple.
He didnt have that looming over his head.
I'll rephrase- If a bunch of people save your ass from walkers and then bring you back to their shelter and start taking care of you like one of their own, I think the least amount of appreciation you can show is to be upfront and honest about situations you clearly cannot manage on your own.
Now my posts were in response to you deciding who was more valuable, who's a liability etc.
From a ZA perspective, how many times can you allow for stupid? How many people is it acceptable to allow to die before you have to get rid of the problem? Apparently 3 isnt the magic number for some in here but is for me
Ben had the choice to nip this in the bud and didnt. That was a conscious decision on his part.
Exactly. It was avoidable, but it wasn't all Ben. He's a KID, he's been with the group a week and they slap a gun in his hands and stick him on watch. You're right, he is/was a liability and trust is earned. He hadn't earned the trust to accept the responsibilities given him. Someone should have taken him under their wing and coached him along.
How could anyone be prepared for:
Hey Ben if you find any strangers in the woods, avoid making deal with them with our supplies. And if you must, please notify someone
lol, you see?
If you and I were in a group, I would never tell you that because wouldnt it just be assumed that if you ever spotted danger like that, you'd tell me?
Maybe it's me, maybe I'm overestimating human thought, but it seems like a no brainer
With a shock collar.
Thats my solution
You and I aren't children (at least I presume you're not). Had someone invested some time in the kid it would have bred confidence, trust and loyalty. As it was he was scared, uncertain, alienated and acted in his own best interests. Ben is a wasted asset.
I mean, his "friend" convinced him to STFU because said friend's father was special forces so that his "friend" (AKA Mr Bullet Catcher or Zombie Bait depending on choices) could "handle" it... lol
If Ben hadn't gotten a clue in the first 3 months (pre-E2) I don't think he can.
EDIT:
Of course, maybe he's the mental version of the "ugly ducking" and he's just waiting for his moment to shine... though, several moments have passed already...
There we go. I finally converted you!
I'm never coming back!
/thread
All jokes aside, I really do understand the Ben defenders. Kicking him out is the same as death, I know this. But (in a ZA) better him than me. Like I said in another thread, Im planning on crossing the ZA finish fine and I wont be able to do that with 'Ben-types' in the group.
Who knows, we could start Ep4 with Lee doing just that: breaking it all down to Ben, and what's expected of him as a group member as they chug into Savannah
I mean, I blame Ben for a lot - but the whole group more or less screwed the pooch as a whole.
- Piss poor location
- No vehicle earlier
- Minimal survival inventory
- No real cooperation
Way to take something out of context! I wouldn't be on your team anyway Mr. Bow Chicka Wow Wow.
Yes, I totally FOXNEWS'd that post, but I'll take a victory in any shape or form