I find it funny that people give Kenny a pass for wanting to kill Ben because of Duck/Katjaa, but theft isn't a good enough reason because... freeblibeebs! By what reasonable standard is theft in a post-apocalyptic situation not a good enough reason? That's potentially a slow death sentence, whether by starvation or eventual infection.
To basically cut/paste what I've said elsewhere; it's not like today where if somebody steals your food or drugs you can just head to the grocery store to buy replacements or call up the pharmacy for a refill. And more than anything else, drugs like antibiotics can't be replaced - you can learn to hunt for food, you can boil water to make it drinkable, you get an infection from an injury while working or hunting or a burn from boiling water? Only recourse is to pick a fungus, pray, and hope it works (it probably won't).
By necessity, the death penalty (or its equivalent) would become a lot more common regardless of the crime. There's not a whole lot of man-hours you can expend on due process before it takes time away from little things like survival. Ditto for whatever punishment you'd prefer for the guilty party. Imprison them? More man-hours expended watching them and resources spent on a non-productive group member. Sentence them to hard labour? Again, more man-hours expended to make sure they do it. Exile? Odds are that's just a more inhumane death sentence where you can pretend your hands are clean.
Had Lilly only killed Ben, I would've atleast entertained taking her. There was enough to convince me Ben was guilty too. We didn't necessarily have good evidence Ben was guilty; that's not the same as having no evidence.
I wanna point out, that while arguing about whether Kenny or Lily were wrong in trying to kill Ben/Carley, we seem to forget that the person we play as is a convicted murderer. And yet, we're all so sad that he died. Why? Why does he get a free pass for killing someone, while Ben doesn't get a free pass for accidentally causing some people's deaths. Lee purposefully murdered the senator, he went into an actual court, and was found guilty. Why did he kill the man? Because he found the man sleeping with his wife. A crime which is less serious than condemning someone to a slow death, or accidentally causing someones death. And yet, Kenny and Lily are horrible people for trying to kill Ben/Carley for this, and yet Lee is a great man, despite killing a man for a relatively minor act. Why does Lee get special treatment?
We never see the act or anything leading up to Lee's murder and know very little about the circumstances surrounding it. He himself can state it was an accident in episode 2. With Lilly and Kenny we know exactly why they want to kill someone and exactly how it happens. With Lee, there is not enough information to go on.
We never see the act or anything leading up to Lee's murder and know very little about the circumstances surrounding it. He himself can state it was an accident in episode 2. With Lilly and Kenny we know exactly why they want to kill someone and exactly how it happens. With Lee, there is not enough information to go on.
He admits that he hurt his wife. He went to court and was sentenced. Lee also is able to say all sorts of different things that aren't true. It's up to the player to decide, but my point is that people shouldn't be so quick to condemn others without looking at the person they got so sad about.
He admits that he hurt his wife. He went to court and was sentenced. Lee also is able to say all sorts of different things that aren't true. It's up to the player to decide, but my point is that people shouldn't be so quick to condemn others without looking at the person they got so sad about.
When Lee can say people do get sent to jail when they shouldn't in episode 3, this could be a hint that he was innocent but could not be proven so, but i guess it is indeed up to the player to determine if those words are the truth.
You weren't there, but he at least speaks about it. he was guilty of killing her, but was a victim himself. He wanted a family, but his wife didn't. They had many fights. But that doesn't mean you cheat on the man you married. If you hate him, divorce. Get a restraining order! But don't cheat on your 'lover'. Considering it was a long time before Lee caught her cheating, who knows how long the affair was going on. You don't know how the fight happened. All you know is he was on him, and before he knew it, he had killed the senator. he could have gotten pissed and tried to get him off, and the senator attacked. Lee could have killed him in self-defense, pure rage, or both. No matter what it was a justified killing as "temporarily insane" or mentally impaired. When something like that happens, you just react to the emotions. I feel Lee was innocent; that he wasn't a bad man. But that's what I think.
We never see the act or anything leading up to Lee's murder and know very little about the circumstances surrounding it. He himself can state it was an accident in episode 2. With Lilly and Kenny we know exactly why they want to kill someone and exactly how it happens. With Lee, there is not enough information to go on.
So why did Lily wanna kill Carly? She does not have a reason I can think of. Maybe Carly callin Lily out on her bullshit. Not really a reason though.....Lee/Kenny/Larry have all told her she was wrong or to be quiet/shut up. So.....
So why did Lily wanna kill Carly? She does not have a reason I can think of. Maybe Carly callin Lily out on her bullshit. Not really a reason though.....Lee/Kenny/Larry have all told her she was wrong or to be quiet/shut up. So.....
Just search up Jaded X Gamer's post history...
He goes way more in depth than i ever could about explaining how bad a person Lilly is right from episode 1 and why she would end up doing something like murdering Carley.
I think it was just Carley standing up to her. Lilly's a tyrant and wants everyone to bow before her, and she gets royally pissed if you don't. Combined with losing the motor inn(which she desperately wanted to stay at for no real reason), having a traitor in a group, and losing her father the rage just swelled up inside her and she cracked, killing Carley. It's not a good enough reason for murder, but Lilly didn't care.
He goes way more in depth than i ever could about explaining how bad a person Lilly is right from episode 1 and why she would end up doing something like murdering Carley.
I think it was just Carley standing up to her. Lilly's a tyrant and wants everyone to bow before her, and she gets royally pissed if you don't. Combined with losing the motor inn(which she desperately wanted to stay at for no real reason), having a traitor in a group, and losing her father the rage just swelled up inside her and she cracked, killing Carley. It's not a good enough reason for murder, but Lilly didn't care.
No. She's a mentally unstable person. Not a "tyrant". She seems to have what's known as a superiority complex, in which you act superior to cover up your own insecurities and feeling inferior to everyone else. She wants to be the leader, and she seems to always has. However, she wasn't able to actually work in the military, and was stuck working a desk job. When she got the chance to be a leader, she jumped at it, not realizing how hard it was to actually lead. She didn't like Kenny because he challenged her, so with the hardships of being a leader in a disaster, along with the death of her father, she was obviously not stable.
As hinted at a few times, she might have been romantically interested in Lee, and yet Carley seemed to be better than her in many ways. She was closer to Lee, was a better shot, and Lee seemed to like Carley more. When Carley pointed out her flaws, she shot her. She obviously did care, but not so much about Carley, but about how everyone else reacted to her killing Carley.
Of course, I'm not a psychologist, so I could be dead wrong. This is just a theory.
No. She's a mentally unstable person. Not a "tyrant". She seems to have what's known as a superiority complex, in which you act superior to cover up your own insecurities and feeling inferior to everyone else. She wants to be the leader, and she seems to always has. However, she wasn't able to actually work in the military, and was stuck working a desk job. When she got the chance to be a leader, she jumped at it, not realizing how hard it was to actually lead. She didn't like Kenny because he challenged her, so with the hardships of being a leader in a disaster, along with the death of her father, she was obviously not stable.
As hinted at a few times, she might have been romantically interested in Lee, and yet Carley seemed to be better than her in many ways. She was closer to Lee, was a better shot, and Lee seemed to like Carley more. When Carley pointed out her flaws, she shot her. She obviously did care, but not so much about Carley, but about how everyone else reacted to her killing Carley.
Of course, I'm not a psychologist, so I could be dead wrong. This is just a theory.
No, she was a tyrant. She argues with Kenny and others even if she knows they are right, just because she wants her way. It doesn't matter how many people decide differenly, she wants to lead the group her own way. She admits to the importance of things and then goes around them purposely, and has gone againt group voting (deaths of Carley/Doug). You really need to read some of JadedxGamer's posts. They can do my stance more justice.
No, she was a tyrant. She argues with Kenny and others even if she knows they are right, just because she wants her way. It doesn't matter how many people decide differenly, she wants to lead the group her own way. She admits to the importance of things and then goes around them purposely, and has gone againt group voting (deaths of Carley/Doug). You really need to read some of JadedxGamer's posts. They can do my stance more justice.
Look up what tyrant means before throwing the word around. And try actually reading my post.
No. She's a mentally unstable person. Not a "tyrant". She seems to have what's known as a superiority complex, in which you act superior to cover up your own insecurities and feeling inferior to everyone else. She wants to be the leader, and she seems to always has. However, she wasn't able to actually work in the military, and was stuck working a desk job. When she got the chance to be a leader, she jumped at it, not realizing how hard it was to actually lead. She didn't like Kenny because he challenged her, so with the hardships of being a leader in a disaster, along with the death of her father, she was obviously not stable.
As hinted at a few times, she might have been romantically interested in Lee, and yet Carley seemed to be better than her in many ways. She was closer to Lee, was a better shot, and Lee seemed to like Carley more. When Carley pointed out her flaws, she shot her. She obviously did care, but not so much about Carley, but about how everyone else reacted to her killing Carley.
Of course, I'm not a psychologist, so I could be dead wrong. This is just a theory.
That was my realization upon replays. She wasn't sorry for killing Carley, she was sorry that in killing Carley she turned the group against her. Her reaction with Doug might suggest she might have cared about killing him but I just think it was her coming to the afore mentioned realization sooner. With killing Carley she probably holds on to some sliver of hope in rationalizing what she did to the others ("She couldn't trusted!"), with Doug she immediately realized she just fucked herself over.
I don't disagree about Lilly having superiority complex either but I think her insistence on being a leader served a specific purpose, giving herself a justification for not putting herself at risk. I think she was a lot more afraid of what was going on then she ever let on and calling herself the leader gave her an excuse to put herself in whatever was the safest position.
She didn't want anyone to open the door at the drug store, she never wanted to leave the Motor-Inn, she wanted to leave the dairy the very second she saw Mark hurt because it probably made her realize she could get hurt. She consistently refused to leave anywhere remotely safe and freaks the fuck out whenever that happens.
She's terrified of what's going on out there but she won't admit it. It's why we never see her do supply runs or hunt for food. It's why she's against any kind of change in scenery. It's why she's on watch in episode two, where's she's off the ground where walkers can't get the jump on her, and it's why she's off watch in episode three, because they're under attack by things that shoot back.
She also disappears during the pharmacy attack. Supposedly to get her dad out but we see Larry waiting in the office to punch Lee, so where'd Lilly go? Why didn't she help Doug, Lee and Carley defend the store? Really the only time we see her putting herself at risk is at the St. Johns and the bandit attack, both situations where risk was nigh unavoidable, and both times she let's Lee go first while she lags behind with a rifle that let's her keep her a relative safe distance.
This is what really kills me when people compare Kenny and Lilly and act like they're mostly the same. No matter how you play, Kenny takes a shitload more risks than Lilly ever did. Whenever for just himself or not is debatable, but people who complain about Kenny trying to leave them behind often fail to realize that Lilly never even bothers to come with you in the first place. She lacks the courage to leave her comfort zone.
No matter what your choices, Kenny goes hunting for food, goes on supply runs, and goes to Crawford. Crawford in particular really highlights the key difference between Kenny and Lilly in my opinion. Kenny doesn't hesitate to go with Brie to get gas and leaves Ben in the safety of the classroom. In episode three, Lilly was sulking in her room while Ken and Lee went out for supplies and Ben of all people was put on watch, probably because she's too afraid to stay outside while the bandits are still a threat.
Ultimately, fear was probably why she stole the R.V. as well. No way in hell the group was going to let her lag behind somewhere safe after what she did, so she takes what little relative safety there's left and ditches everybody to protect herself. And even if Lee says he'll come with her she'll ditch him too, probably because she was afraid he would go tell the others what she was doing.
Carley really nailed it when she called Lilly a scared little girl masquerading as a tough bitch. All her bravado was really just to hide how frightened she was of everything.
That was my realization upon replays. She wasn't sorry for killing Carley, she was sorry that in killing Carley she turned the group against her. Her reaction with Doug might suggest she might have cared about killing him but I just think it was her coming to the afore mentioned realization sooner. With killing Carley she probably holds on to some sliver of hope in rationalizing what she did to the others ("She couldn't trusted!"), with Doug she immediately realized she just fucked herself over.
I don't disagree about Lilly having superiority complex either but I think her insistence on being a leader served a specific purpose, giving herself a justification for not putting herself at risk. I think she was a lot more afraid of what was going on then she ever let on and calling herself the leader gave her an excuse to put herself in whatever was the safest position.
She didn't want anyone to open the door at the drug store, she never wanted to leave the Motor-Inn, she wanted to leave the dairy the very second she saw Mark hurt because it probably made her realize she could get hurt. She consistently refused to leave anywhere remotely safe and freaks the fuck out whenever that happens.
She's terrified of what's going on out there but she won't admit it. It's why we never see her do supply runs or hunt for food. It's why she's against any kind of change in scenery. It's why she's on watch in episode two, where's she's off the ground where walkers can't get the jump on her, and it's why she's off watch in episode three, because they're under attack by things that shoot back.
She also disappears during the pharmacy attack. Supposedly to get her dad out but we see Larry waiting in the office to punch Lee, so where'd Lilly go? Why didn't she help Doug, Lee and Carley defend the store? Really the only time we see her putting herself at risk is at the St. Johns and the bandit attack, both situations where risk was nigh unavoidable, and both times she let's Lee go first while she lags behind with a rifle that let's her keep her a relative safe distance.
This is what really kills me when people compare Kenny and Lilly and act like they're mostly the same. No matter how you play, Kenny takes a shitload more risks than Lilly ever did. Whenever for just himself or not is debatable, but people who complain about Kenny trying to leave them behind often fail to realize that Lilly never even bothers to come with you in the first place. She lacks the courage to leave her comfort zone.
No matter what your choices, Kenny goes hunting for food, goes on supply runs, and goes to Crawford. Crawford in particular really highlights the key difference between Kenny and Lilly in my opinion. Kenny doesn't hesitate to go with Brie to get gas and leaves Ben in the safety of the classroom. In episode three, Lilly was sulking in her room while Ken and Lee went out for supplies and Ben of all people was put on watch, probably because she's too afraid to stay outside while the bandits are still a threat.
Ultimately, fear was probably why she stole the R.V. as well. No way in hell the group was going to let her lag behind somewhere safe after what she did, so she takes what little relative safety there's left and ditches everybody to protect herself. And even if Lee says he'll come with her she'll ditch him too, probably because she was afraid he would go tell the others what she was doing.
Carley really nailed it when she called Lilly a scared little girl masquerading as a tough bitch. All her bravado was really just to hide how frightened she was of everything.
Yes. You're right on pretty much everything, except saying that she didn't care about killing Doug. Doug didn't do anything to undermine her leadership. Doug was fine, and in her eyes a good ally. She didn't think of him as competition, because she knew she didn't specialize in any of the things he did, and she didn't have to compete with Doug for Lee's affection.
Lilly shouldn't be judged on her being a bad person. She's just not cut out for the role she tries to play, and due to her issues, she doesn't want to admit it. She's not a bad person. She's just, as Carley put it... A scared little girl.
However, that doesn't mean Kenny is much better. He's too worried about his own family to be a good leader. He's a more or less good guy, but he's been pushed too far. He takes anything not exactly for him, as against him and his family.
Also; this is how you write a concise argument. Don't just point to someone else and shout "They can do it better!" You aren't winning any debates like that.
Also; this is how you write a concise argument. Don't just point to someone else and shout "They can do it better!" You aren't winning any debates like that.
If that was directed at me, i was not trying to debate at all. Someone directly asks me for a reason behind Lilly's actions, and if i can't provide one but can point to someone else who can(or can bring a closer answer), I'll do so rather than leaving them in the dark.
If that was directed at me, i was not trying to debate at all. Someone directly asks me for a reason behind Lilly's actions, and if i can't provide one but can point to someone else who can(or can bring a closer answer), I'll do so rather than leaving them in the dark.
Actually, more so at Mark$man. You put that you didn't know, but Mark$man just tried to argue, and then put that I had to read Jaded X Gamer's post history.
No me lo tomen a mal.
Una cosa es no dejar a nadie de los tuyos cuando son un equipo y otra es cuando se matan unos a otros, jamás debes permitir que esto pase porque se rompe la integridad dentro del equipo cuestionan tu autoridad, en este caso debes ver por los demás suena feo pero es verdad si tengo una niña a mi cargo y permito que se maten pensara que todos van a morir tarde o temprano si el grupo se destruye con forme avanza la historia lo más razonable es dejar el grupo y llevarte a la niña para mantener su integridad física ya que la integridad mental no se puede restablecer dentro del equipo. Para tener adiestramiento dejo claro que es una persona inestable y eso es un verdadero problema te puede matar en cualquier momento alegando que podías ser un peligro por pensar diferente en el caso de Lee y Clementine principalmente la consideraría un peligro potencial dentro del grupo por ser débil físicamente y pondríamos más atención en ella, en vez del grupo.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxDo not get me wrong.
One thing is to not let anyone in your family when one team and another is when they kill each other, you must never let this happen because it breaks the integrity within the team questioning your authority, in this case you should see the other sounds bad but it's true if I have a girl in my office and let them kill think that all will die sooner or later if the group is destroyed to form the story progresses it is reasonable to leave the group and take the girl to keep their physical and mental integrity that can not be restored within the team. To have made it clear that training is an unstable person and that's a real problem can kill you at any time alleging that could be a danger for thinking differently in the case of Lee and Clementine mainly considered a potential hazard within the group for being weak physically and would put more attention on it, instead of the group.
Jaded X had Lilly nailed. Not really a lot i can say because it's already been put so well.
Voted yes. Her killing Ben in place of Carley wouldn't have effected me to the same extent since i cared about her more than him and if it was him i could buy that the decision to kill was based on anything other than hate, but ultimately Lilly's crime is the same and punishment would have been the same.
IMO she's just lucky not to get the death penalty.
Actually, more so at Mark$man. You put that you didn't know, but Mark$man just tried to argue, and then put that I had to read Jaded X Gamer's post history.
I do that because Jaded does it better, and has it already written out. The point of the threads are to be read. I don't mean to argue, but I just really hate Lilly. I tolerated her before she kills Doug/Carley, after which I just can't stand her.
Look up what tyrant means before throwing the word around. And try actually reading my post.
And I read your post before replying, and I really don't get what you are talking about. I really don't care about her mentality as to her being basically a tyrant. And yes, I know what it means, although I may put my own twist to it. I'd say maybe more of a dictator. She is such a hypocrite that no matter the voting, her say is all that matters. Even though everyone wanted her to stop her accusations and voted to stop for the time being, she continued accusing Ben and Carley, and later tried to execute someone with no evidence or reason. Even after Kenny and others purpose to leave the motor inn, she still refuses to leave even though there is nothing there, just for her 'safety'. She puts her father and herself over anyone else, and as a leader that is not allowed. She is anything less than a leader, and as a leader she acts like how Kenny calls her "own personal dictatorship". I don't expect others to understand my hatred of Lilly or if they do, agree with it. However, it is how I feel that she is a horrible person and I feel that if I had had an option, I would have executed her. Sorry if you don't like that.
And I read your post before replying, and I really don't get what you are talking about. I really don't care about her mentality as to her being basically a tyrant. And yes, I know what it means, although I may put my own twist to it. I'd say maybe more of a dictator. She is such a hypocrite that no matter the voting, her say is all that matters. Even though everyone wanted her to stop her accusations and voted to stop for the time being, she continued accusing Ben and Carley, and later tried to execute someone with no evidence or reason. Even after Kenny and others purpose to leave the motor inn, she still refuses to leave even though there is nothing there, just for her 'safety'. She puts her father and herself over anyone else, and as a leader that is not allowed. She is anything less than a leader, and as a leader she acts like how Kenny calls her "own personal dictatorship". I don't expect others to understand my hatred of Lilly or if they do, agree with it. However, it is how I feel that she is a horrible person and I feel that if I had had an option, I would have executed her. Sorry if you don't like that.
Do...
Okay. You obviously don't understand what I was trying to say.
I cited a REAL psychological complex that fit with Lilly, and explained how that fit with everything she did. It's not really her fault, it's more everyone else's fault for not stepping in and getting her to stop, before she did more damage to herself and the group. She's not a "horrible person" because she's not real, and she's fucking SICK. Like, this isn't a never gonna get better sick. This is the kind of sick that a little bit of time with a psychiatrist could help. Or, hell, maybe just helping her face her insecurities, and giving her some time off from leadership would help.
There's a reason people with mental illnesses don't get executed.
Okay. You obviously don't understand what I was trying to say.
I cited a REAL psychological complex that fit with Lilly, and explained how that fit with everything she did. It's not really her fault, it's more everyone else's fault for not stepping in and getting her to stop, before she did more damage to herself and the group. She's not a "horrible person" because she's not real, and she's fucking SICK. Like, this isn't a never gonna get better sick. This is the kind of sick that a little bit of time with a psychiatrist could help. Or, hell, maybe just helping her face her insecurities, and giving her some time off from leadership would help.
There's a reason people with mental illnesses don't get executed.
More like a shit load of time after being committed to a mental hospital. In addition to her insecurities she has zero empathy for anyone who's not her father and even then she seems more concerned with her own safety than his. (Unlike Kenny, she won't refuse food if her family isn't feed first.) Then there's her antisocial, borderline sociopathic behavior. If you call her an asshole in Macon she seems to wear the insult as a badge of pride by saying "That's what it takes!"
I disagree that Lilly was not a bad person. We don't know what she was like pre-apocalypse but from the little tidbits I gleamed and the way her father acts and how she reacts to him suggests to me she was probably a lousy person before things went bad. Obviously not a crazy killer or anything drastic, but I think she was probably a shitty person in normal life and the ZA pushed her to drastic new lows in the end. For me, taking the R.V. was a clear sign of the type of person she really was.
Both Lilly and Larry feel like those specific kind of selfish assholes everyone seems to get as a boss at some point. You know the type. Never pleased with anything anyone does, goes around yelling at people, blames their fuck-ups on others, take their problems out on people who have nothing to do with them, and at the end of the day everyone else gathers around to talk about what assholes they are. Their role in the story, to me, was to show just how dangerous those people would really be in such dire circumstances.
It's just speculation on my part but when you ask Lilly what she does she says she "works with a bunch of shitheads and bureaucrats" with a sense of resentment that suggests she doesn't like any of the people she works with. Contrast that with Carley who calls her news editor an asshole but is still clearly upset by her death and finds her radio station's sudden sign off distressing. You can also see Lilly’s lack of humanity in how quick she is to throw anyone out who isn’t useful to her.
Judging from her father and her anti-social behavior, (she seems almost at a loss what to say when Lee gives her an energy bar) I'm thinking she never really had many, if any friends. Larry probably raised her to believe she had to always be ruthless to get things done and even if he didn't, just having Larry as a father probably scared off a lot of potential friends. Imagine going over to her house and running into this...
I don't think it's a stretch to say Larry was probably a fairly shitty father. I doubt he ever beat Lilly or anything severe like that but, even if it was unintentional, he was probably responsible for a lot of his daughter's psychological issues. He's the one both pushing Lilly into the role as leader and insisting she rule as a heartless prick and considering what an awful judge of character he is (tries to murder Lee, sucks up to family of cannibals) he’s probably passed on his own fucked up perspective to Lilly.
He constantly berates her anytime she acts like less than a bossy asshole and she clearly never worked up the courage to tell her old man off, so she just does whatever he says to placate him. She even says she didn't agree with him on the Duck being bitten thing, but didn't object just the same. It's probably been that way her whole life. Constantly vying for her father's approval by doing what he wants, then covertly running damage control with other people because on some level she knows he's a jackass.
And since she never got the nerve up to go against Larry, he probably chased off any possible friends she could ever make. And that would make him all Lilly has in the world, and that probably caused her to double down on appeasing him out of fear of being completely alone. But she's a fucking grown woman and she's surrounded by other people. At some point it became a conscious choice. Larry said it himself. “She can make her own friends.” She chooses not to.
While I agree she's sick in the head and a tragic character, I still think she's a bad person. Lilly doesn't want to be helped and she doesn't want to change. The issue isn't she can't get better as much as she doesn't want to. You suggest the others should have stepped up to stop her from being leader but what more could they have done that they didn’t already try?
Kenny questions her leadership from the moment he meets her, Carley and Glenn disobey her in Macon, nobody acted to get rid of Ben and Travis/David when they were brought in and Mark, Carley, Kenny and possibly Lee all argue against her. Kenny flat out tells her in episode three that someone needs to make decisions for the group and he doesn't think Lilly's capable anymore. She responds by changing the subject, then when Kenny tries to follow up on that line of thought, she changes it again and yells at everyone to get out. You can’t have a discussion with someone who doesn’t want to talk.
Other than forcing her at gunpoint to give up her claim as a leader, an act that may have been seen as crazy and certainly hostile in itself, what were the others suppose to do? She wouldn't accept "time off from leadership" either because that means not being leader which means she might be put in a position of potential risk. Instead she asks for a week of not hearing about real problems the group was facing, not suggesting that someone else handle these problems in her absence. The missing supplies probably would have gone uninvestigated if Carley/Doug didn’t prod Lee into looking for them.
And good luck at tackling her insecurities, she interprets anything said about her that's not entirely complimentary as an attack. If she doesn't counterattack what you say she just deflects it. If you try to address her mental instability in episode three she just changes the subject back to the missing supplies. You try to talk to her in the R.V. after she shoots someone she just complains about being tied up, then outright refuses to talk at all if you try to follow up with her.
Carley finally called Lilly out on her cowardly tendencies and got a bullet to the head for her trouble, why? Why does Lilly hate Carley? I refuse to believe it’s because Lilly is in love with Lee and jealous of Carley, especially because it’s possible for Lee to be an utter asshole to Lilly. Lilly hates Carley because Lilly interprets anything Carley does “against” Lilly as a personal attack. Carley argues against Lilly when Ben and company are brought back, she defends herself and Ben against Lilly’s accusations, she disobeyed Lilly in Macon to save Lee and four others. Lilly get’s pissed as hell when Carley offhandedly called Kenny boss in Macon.
People complain about Kenny being a whiny bitch if you don’t “have his back” but Lilly clearly harbors a deep seated hatred for Carley for every minor infraction against Lilly’s already incredibly weak authority. You pay attention to the argument in the R.V. and she accuses Carley, not Ben, of stealing. The only times Ben is brought into the argument is either because both him and Carley are being accused (usually for defending Carley and himself) or because Lilly tells Ben she’ll let him off the hook if he just says it was Carley. And all of this happens before Carley calls Lilly a scared girl.
Lilly is quite literally unreasonable. You can’t reason with her, before or after her dad dies. She also seems to think almost any kind of help or kindness is at best, pity and at worst, deception. She seems to resent the idea of "getting hell" as much as being "coddled" and one her dialogue options is "I'm not going to play the victim." She resents being helped, it probably makes her feel weak, and if you tried to tell her that, she'd probably resent that accusation and tell you "Don't start with me."
And that's if you're on GOOD terms with Lilly. If she hates Lee she's far worse. If you bring up her being unstable then she throws what you and Kenny did back at you and she basically tells you to fuck off for anything you think. In episode two if you don't side with her (literally, just not side with her, if you pick the neutral option) and try to offer her food, she says she doesn't want anything from you. You tell her to take it anyways, she says "This doesn't change anything". You offer an olive branch and she spits on it.
Seriously, the message I took from Lilly was that some people are truly irredeemable. If they're not beyond redemption then they simply don't want it, or don't believe they've done any wrong that requires redeeming. In most games with branching dialogue you're always given that option to talk people down and make them realize what they're doing is wrong. That's not what they did here. Nothing you can say or do changes Lilly. It's most apparent if you actually elect to go with her, the look on her face says it all.
She doesn't believe Lee when he says he'll come with her, despite the fact she was the one who suggested it in the first place. She never expected him to say yes (she literally says that if you refuse) because she refuses to believe anyone could ever genuinely want to help her. And if you challenge this belief, what does she do? She tells Lee to get Clementine to get him out of the R.V. and goes off alone anyways. Even if you don't think that makes Lilly a monster it does prove she doesn't want anyone else’s help. And nothing you say or do ever changes that. Even if your choices as Lee have never once given her any reason to distrust him, she won't trust him.
And this is the very BEST outcome you can reach with Lilly. If you helped Kenny in the meat locker and let her back in the R.V. she tells Lee she could have killed him when his back was turned. Lilly kills Carley for seemingly minor slights, or kills Doug by accident because she’s a careless paranoid lunatic. She might tell Lee she was thinking of killing him and I have no doubt she wanted to kill Kenny too. Everything Lee says about the person he killed suggests he regretted it. Everything Lilly says just makes me think she regretted not killing more people.
And this had nothing to do with her originally being a comic character and having to leave the story. Telltale could have easily contrived things where if you were sympathetic to her you could have talked her down from stealing the R.V. and show she wasn't a complete amoral sociopath. If that happened Kenny would probably insist on leaving Lilly behind after the train was running and since he couldn't take the R.V. with him things would have worked out the same continuity wise.
But that didn't happen because that's not the kind of person Lilly was. This idea that all she needed to be made well was a little TLC is absurd. Ignoring the fact she would in all likely hood refuse such things, curing psychological problems even for people who do want help and want to be cured is typically difficult, time consuming, often requires medication and still has a high chance of failure. And this is under IDEAL circumstances, something the end of the world is not.
We don’t execute people with mental problems but that doesn’t mean we can cure everyone with a mental condition anymore than we can cure everyone with cancer, and again, that’s in a functional world. And even in a functional world, the criminally insane are still locked up where they can’t hurt anyone else until they are possibly cured or rehabilitated, something Lilly seems to resent.
As far as I’m concerned, I gave Lilly every chance I could and she refused every single one. I let her back in the R.V. because Lee got a second chance after committing murder and he went on to do a lot of good. Lilly used it to betray the same person who spared her what was effectively a death sentence. Even a bleeding heart like me has his limits. If Lilly appears in season two I wouldn’t hesitate to kill her on the grounds she’s a dangerous lunatic who’s a threat to others and I saw nothing that would ever suggest that’s going to change about her.
Okay. You obviously don't understand what I was trying to say.
I cited a REAL psychological complex that fit with Lilly, and explained how that fit with everything she did. It's not really her fault, it's more everyone else's fault for not stepping in and getting her to stop, before she did more damage to herself and the group. She's not a "horrible person" because she's not real, and she's fucking SICK. Like, this isn't a never gonna get better sick. This is the kind of sick that a little bit of time with a psychiatrist could help. Or, hell, maybe just helping her face her insecurities, and giving her some time off from leadership would help.
There's a reason people with mental illnesses don't get executed.
People in older times with mental illnesses were plain executed, so quite the opposite until recently, actually :P. And yeah, I understood you talking about Lilly's "insecurities", but it means little to being a dictator lol. I don't see any excuses for her problems. For a mental person, she seemed to do fine with being in the Air Force, taking shit from her father, and her daily life problems. But suddenly when they are all safe, then it's a perfect time to go crazy. Yeah, she lost her father. No offense to her, but I really don't accept that. People lose family all the time, and that man was dead. There were no paramedics, no meds for him, and they were locked in a room with the soon-to-be zombie, and even if they saved him still had to find a way out. And no, she just wasn't a good leader. Even if she got her head straight, she still wouldn't be. Before all the shit that caused her mental breakdown, she was still a terrible person, and not fit for social life lol.
I understand what you are saying, and yeah she probably had those problems, but no matter what they were problems that could not be fixed. Even if you cleared her insanity, she was still a bitch. Yeah, it is a game, but she is a realistic character(in person standards).
People in older times with mental illnesses were plain executed, so quite the opposite until recently, actually :P. And yeah, I understood you talking about Lilly's "insecurities", but it means little to being a dictator lol. I don't see any excuses for her problems. For a mental person, she seemed to do fine with being in the Air Force, taking shit from her father, and her daily life problems. But suddenly when they are all safe, then it's a perfect time to go crazy. Yeah, she lost her father. No offense to her, but I really don't accept that. People lose family all the time, and that man was dead. There were no paramedics, no meds for him, and they were locked in a room with the soon-to-be zombie, and even if they saved him still had to find a way out. And no, she just wasn't a good leader. Even if she got her head straight, she still wouldn't be. Before all the shit that caused her mental breakdown, she was still a terrible person, and not fit for social life lol.
I understand what you are saying, and yeah she probably had those problems, but no matter what they were problems that could not be fixed. Even if you cleared her insanity, she was still a bitch. Yeah, it is a game, but she is a realistic character(in person standards).
Oh no... she's a bitch. Let's execute her? Really?
And, no excuses for her problems? She's probably been talked down to and mentally abused by her father her whole life. I never said she would be a good leader. I fucking said she would be a bad leader. Neither Kenny or Lilly would be good leaders. Hell, Ben would be a better leader than Lilly, because, while he was a dumb coward, he didn't have psychological issues. And you obviously don't understand psychological issues. You aren't just fine until you have a breakdown, and then you're crazy. No, she had these issues before her breakdown.
And not many people have their only family, someone who she'd probably grown to depend upon, have their head destroyed in front of you. Yeah, people lose family, but not like that.
So, you don't understand what I was saying. At all.
More like a shit load of time after being committed to a mental hospital. In addition to her insecurities she has zero empathy for anyone who's not her father and even then she seems more concerned with her own safety than his. (Unlike Kenny, she won't refuse food if her family isn't feed first.) Then there's her antisocial, borderline sociopathic behavior. If you call her an asshole in Macon she seems to wear the insult as a badge of pride by saying "That's what it takes!"
I disagree that Lilly was not a bad person. We don't know what she was like pre-apocalypse but from the little tidbits I gleamed and the way her father acts and how she reacts to him suggests to me she was probably a lousy person before things went bad. Obviously not a crazy killer or anything drastic, but I think she was probably a shitty person in normal life and the ZA pushed her to drastic new lows in the end. For me, taking the R.V. was a clear sign of the type of person she really was.
Both Lilly and Larry feel like those specific kind of selfish assholes everyone seems to get as a boss at some point. You know the type. Never pleased with anything anyone does, goes around yelling at people, blames their fuck-ups on others, take their problems out on people who have nothing to do with them, and at the end of the day everyone else gathers around to talk about what assholes they are. Their role in the story, to me, was to show just how dangerous those people would really be in such dire circumstances.
It's just speculation on my part but when you ask Lilly what she does she says she "works with a bunch of shitheads and bureaucrats" with a sense of resentment that suggests she doesn't like any of the people she works with. Contrast that with Carley who calls her news editor an asshole but is still clearly upset by her death and finds her radio station's sudden sign off distressing. You can also see Lilly’s lack of humanity in how quick she is to throw anyone out who isn’t useful to her.
Judging from her father and her anti-social behavior, (she seems almost at a loss what to say when Lee gives her an energy bar) I'm thinking she never really had many, if any friends. Larry probably raised her to believe she had to always be ruthless to get things done and even if he didn't, just having Larry as a father probably scared off a lot of potential friends. Imagine going over to her house and running into this...
I don't think it's a stretch to say Larry was probably a fairly shitty father. I doubt he ever beat Lilly or anything severe like that but, even if it was unintentional, he was probably responsible for a lot of his daughter's psychological issues. He's the one both pushing Lilly into the role as leader and insisting she rule as a heartless prick and considering what an awful judge of character he is (tries to murder Lee, sucks up to family of cannibals) he’s probably passed on his own fucked up perspective to Lilly.
He constantly berates her anytime she acts like less than a bossy asshole and she clearly never worked up the courage to tell her old man off, so she just does whatever he says to placate him. She even says she didn't agree with him on the Duck being bitten thing, but didn't object just the same. It's probably been that way her whole life. Constantly vying for her father's approval by doing what he wants, then covertly running damage control with other people because on some level she knows he's a jackass.
And since she never got the nerve up to go against Larry, he probably chased off any possible friends she could ever make. And that would make him all Lilly has in the world, and that probably caused her to double down on appeasing him out of fear of being completely alone. But she's a fucking grown woman and she's surrounded by other people. At some point it became a conscious choice. Larry said it himself. “She can make her own friends.” She chooses not to.
While I agree she's sick in the head and a tragic character, I still think she's a bad person. Lilly doesn't want to be helped and she doesn't want to change. The issue isn't she can't get better as much as she doesn't want to. You suggest the others should have stepped up to stop her from being leader but what more could they have done that they didn’t already try?
Kenny questions her leadership from the moment he meets her, Carley and Glenn disobey her in Macon, nobody acted to get rid of Ben and Travis/David when they were brought in and Mark, Carley, Kenny and possibly Lee all argue against her. Kenny flat out tells her in episode three that someone needs to make decisions for the group and he doesn't think Lilly's capable anymore. She responds by changing the subject, then when Kenny tries to follow up on that line of thought, she changes it again and yells at everyone to get out. You can’t have a discussion with someone who doesn’t want to talk.
Other than forcing her at gunpoint to give up her claim as a leader, an act that may have been seen as crazy and certainly hostile in itself, what were the others suppose to do? She wouldn't accept "time off from leadership" either because that means not being leader which means she might be put in a position of potential risk. Instead she asks for a week of not hearing about real problems the group was facing, not suggesting that someone else handle these problems in her absence. The missing supplies probably would have gone uninvestigated if Carley/Doug didn’t prod Lee into looking for them.
And good luck at tackling her insecurities, she interprets anything said about her that's not entirely complimentary as an attack. If she doesn't counterattack what you say she just deflects it. If you try to address her mental instability in episode three she just changes the subject back to the missing supplies. You try to talk to her in the R.V. after she shoots someone she just complains about being tied up, then outright refuses to talk at all if you try to follow up with her.
Carley finally called Lilly out on her cowardly tendencies and got a bullet to the head for her trouble, why? Why does Lilly hate Carley? I refuse to believe it’s because Lilly is in love with Lee and jealous of Carley, especially because it’s possible for Lee to be an utter asshole to Lilly. Lilly hates Carley because Lilly interprets anything Carley does “against” Lilly as a personal attack. Carley argues against Lilly when Ben and company are brought back, she defends herself and Ben against Lilly’s accusations, she disobeyed Lilly in Macon to save Lee and four others. Lilly get’s pissed as hell when Carley offhandedly called Kenny boss in Macon.
People complain about Kenny being a whiny bitch if you don’t “have his back” but Lilly clearly harbors a deep seated hatred for Carley for every minor infraction against Lilly’s already incredibly weak authority. You pay attention to the argument in the R.V. and she accuses Carley, not Ben, of stealing. The only times Ben is brought into the argument is either because both him and Carley are being accused (usually for defending Carley and himself) or because Lilly tells Ben she’ll let him off the hook if he just says it was Carley. And all of this happens before Carley calls Lilly a scared girl.
Lilly is quite literally unreasonable. You can’t reason with her, before or after her dad dies. She also seems to think almost any kind of help or kindness is at best, pity and at worst, deception. She seems to resent the idea of "getting hell" as much as being "coddled" and one her dialogue options is "I'm not going to play the victim." She resents being helped, it probably makes her feel weak, and if you tried to tell her that, she'd probably resent that accusation and tell you "Don't start with me."
And that's if you're on GOOD terms with Lilly. If she hates Lee she's far worse. If you bring up her being unstable then she throws what you and Kenny did back at you and she basically tells you to fuck off for anything you think. In episode two if you don't side with her (literally, just not side with her, if you pick the neutral option) and try to offer her food, she says she doesn't want anything from you. You tell her to take it anyways, she says "This doesn't change anything". You offer an olive branch and she spits on it.
Seriously, the message I took from Lilly was that some people are truly irredeemable. If they're not beyond redemption then they simply don't want it, or don't believe they've done any wrong that requires redeeming. In most games with branching dialogue you're always given that option to talk people down and make them realize what they're doing is wrong. That's not what they did here. Nothing you can say or do changes Lilly. It's most apparent if you actually elect to go with her, the look on her face says it all.
She doesn't believe Lee when he says he'll come with her, despite the fact she was the one who suggested it in the first place. She never expected him to say yes (she literally says that if you refuse) because she refuses to believe anyone could ever genuinely want to help her. And if you challenge this belief, what does she do? She tells Lee to get Clementine to get him out of the R.V. and goes off alone anyways. Even if you don't think that makes Lilly a monster it does prove she doesn't want anyone else’s help. And nothing you say or do ever changes that. Even if your choices as Lee have never once given her any reason to distrust him, she won't trust him.
And this is the very BEST outcome you can reach with Lilly. If you helped Kenny in the meat locker and let her back in the R.V. she tells Lee she could have killed him when his back was turned. Lilly kills Carley for seemingly minor slights, or kills Doug by accident because she’s a careless paranoid lunatic. She might tell Lee she was thinking of killing him and I have no doubt she wanted to kill Kenny too. Everything Lee says about the person he killed suggests he regretted it. Everything Lilly says just makes me think she regretted not killing more people.
And this had nothing to do with her originally being a comic character and having to leave the story. Telltale could have easily contrived things where if you were sympathetic to her you could have talked her down from stealing the R.V. and show she wasn't a complete amoral sociopath. If that happened Kenny would probably insist on leaving Lilly behind after the train was running and since he couldn't take the R.V. with him things would have worked out the same continuity wise.
But that didn't happen because that's not the kind of person Lilly was. This idea that all she needed to be made well was a little TLC is absurd. Ignoring the fact she would in all likely hood refuse such things, curing psychological problems even for people who do want help and want to be cured is typically difficult, time consuming, often requires medication and still has a high chance of failure. And this is under IDEAL circumstances, something the end of the world is not.
We don’t execute people with mental problems but that doesn’t mean we can cure everyone with a mental condition anymore than we can cure everyone with cancer, and again, that’s in a functional world. And even in a functional world, the criminally insane are still locked up where they can’t hurt anyone else until they are possibly cured or rehabilitated, something Lilly seems to resent.
As far as I’m concerned, I gave Lilly every chance I could and she refused every single one. I let her back in the R.V. because Lee got a second chance after committing murder and he went on to do a lot of good. Lilly used it to betray the same person who spared her what was effectively a death sentence. Even a bleeding heart like me has his limits. If Lilly appears in season two I wouldn’t hesitate to kill her on the grounds she’s a dangerous lunatic who’s a threat to others and I saw nothing that would ever suggest that’s going to change about her.
I agree with every word. I've stated I'd kill Lilly with no problem sleeping that night xD I'd probably have sweet dreams lol. There is no nice Lilly, not in the game, not in the comics, not in the fanfiction. She is horrible 360 degrees. If she comes back to the group I wouldn't let her live, I couldn't trust her around Clem. And yeah, I remember her talking about killing Lee, and with his BACK TURNED. Jesus, how many people does she have to kill like a coward before she feels good about herself? lol I really hate the woman. I love your rants, just because it fuels my rage for Lilly Caul :P
More like a shit load of time after being committed to a mental hospital. In addition to her insecurities she has zero empathy for anyone who's not her father and even then she seems more concerned with her own safety than his. (Unlike Kenny, she won't refuse food if her family isn't feed first.) Then there's her antisocial, borderline sociopathic behavior. If you call her an asshole in Macon she seems to wear the insult as a badge of pride by saying "That's what it takes!"
I disagree that Lilly was not a bad person. We don't know what she was like pre-apocalypse but from the little tidbits I gleamed and the way her father acts and how she reacts to him suggests to me she was probably a lousy person before things went bad. Obviously not a crazy killer or anything drastic, but I think she was probably a shitty person in normal life and the ZA pushed her to drastic new lows in the end. For me, taking the R.V. was a clear sign of the type of person she really was.
Both Lilly and Larry feel like those specific kind of selfish assholes everyone seems to get as a boss at some point. You know the type. Never pleased with anything anyone does, goes around yelling at people, blames their fuck-ups on others, take their problems out on people who have nothing to do with them, and at the end of the day everyone else gathers around to talk about what assholes they are. Their role in the story, to me, was to show just how dangerous those people would really be in such dire circumstances.
It's just speculation on my part but when you ask Lilly what she does she says she "works with a bunch of shitheads and bureaucrats" with a sense of resentment that suggests she doesn't like any of the people she works with. Contrast that with Carley who calls her news editor an asshole but is still clearly upset by her death and finds her radio station's sudden sign off distressing. You can also see Lilly’s lack of humanity in how quick she is to throw anyone out who isn’t useful to her.
Judging from her father and her anti-social behavior, (she seems almost at a loss what to say when Lee gives her an energy bar) I'm thinking she never really had many, if any friends. Larry probably raised her to believe she had to always be ruthless to get things done and even if he didn't, just having Larry as a father probably scared off a lot of potential friends. Imagine going over to her house and running into this...
I don't think it's a stretch to say Larry was probably a fairly shitty father. I doubt he ever beat Lilly or anything severe like that but, even if it was unintentional, he was probably responsible for a lot of his daughter's psychological issues. He's the one both pushing Lilly into the role as leader and insisting she rule as a heartless prick and considering what an awful judge of character he is (tries to murder Lee, sucks up to family of cannibals) he’s probably passed on his own fucked up perspective to Lilly.
He constantly berates her anytime she acts like less than a bossy asshole and she clearly never worked up the courage to tell her old man off, so she just does whatever he says to placate him. She even says she didn't agree with him on the Duck being bitten thing, but didn't object just the same. It's probably been that way her whole life. Constantly vying for her father's approval by doing what he wants, then covertly running damage control with other people because on some level she knows he's a jackass.
And since she never got the nerve up to go against Larry, he probably chased off any possible friends she could ever make. And that would make him all Lilly has in the world, and that probably caused her to double down on appeasing him out of fear of being completely alone. But she's a fucking grown woman and she's surrounded by other people. At some point it became a conscious choice. Larry said it himself. “She can make her own friends.” She chooses not to.
While I agree she's sick in the head and a tragic character, I still think she's a bad person. Lilly doesn't want to be helped and she doesn't want to change. The issue isn't she can't get better as much as she doesn't want to. You suggest the others should have stepped up to stop her from being leader but what more could they have done that they didn’t already try?
Kenny questions her leadership from the moment he meets her, Carley and Glenn disobey her in Macon, nobody acted to get rid of Ben and Travis/David when they were brought in and Mark, Carley, Kenny and possibly Lee all argue against her. Kenny flat out tells her in episode three that someone needs to make decisions for the group and he doesn't think Lilly's capable anymore. She responds by changing the subject, then when Kenny tries to follow up on that line of thought, she changes it again and yells at everyone to get out. You can’t have a discussion with someone who doesn’t want to talk.
Other than forcing her at gunpoint to give up her claim as a leader, an act that may have been seen as crazy and certainly hostile in itself, what were the others suppose to do? She wouldn't accept "time off from leadership" either because that means not being leader which means she might be put in a position of potential risk. Instead she asks for a week of not hearing about real problems the group was facing, not suggesting that someone else handle these problems in her absence. The missing supplies probably would have gone uninvestigated if Carley/Doug didn’t prod Lee into looking for them.
And good luck at tackling her insecurities, she interprets anything said about her that's not entirely complimentary as an attack. If she doesn't counterattack what you say she just deflects it. If you try to address her mental instability in episode three she just changes the subject back to the missing supplies. You try to talk to her in the R.V. after she shoots someone she just complains about being tied up, then outright refuses to talk at all if you try to follow up with her.
Carley finally called Lilly out on her cowardly tendencies and got a bullet to the head for her trouble, why? Why does Lilly hate Carley? I refuse to believe it’s because Lilly is in love with Lee and jealous of Carley, especially because it’s possible for Lee to be an utter asshole to Lilly. Lilly hates Carley because Lilly interprets anything Carley does “against” Lilly as a personal attack. Carley argues against Lilly when Ben and company are brought back, she defends herself and Ben against Lilly’s accusations, she disobeyed Lilly in Macon to save Lee and four others. Lilly get’s pissed as hell when Carley offhandedly called Kenny boss in Macon.
People complain about Kenny being a whiny bitch if you don’t “have his back” but Lilly clearly harbors a deep seated hatred for Carley for every minor infraction against Lilly’s already incredibly weak authority. You pay attention to the argument in the R.V. and she accuses Carley, not Ben, of stealing. The only times Ben is brought into the argument is either because both him and Carley are being accused (usually for defending Carley and himself) or because Lilly tells Ben she’ll let him off the hook if he just says it was Carley. And all of this happens before Carley calls Lilly a scared girl.
Lilly is quite literally unreasonable. You can’t reason with her, before or after her dad dies. She also seems to think almost any kind of help or kindness is at best, pity and at worst, deception. She seems to resent the idea of "getting hell" as much as being "coddled" and one her dialogue options is "I'm not going to play the victim." She resents being helped, it probably makes her feel weak, and if you tried to tell her that, she'd probably resent that accusation and tell you "Don't start with me."
And that's if you're on GOOD terms with Lilly. If she hates Lee she's far worse. If you bring up her being unstable then she throws what you and Kenny did back at you and she basically tells you to fuck off for anything you think. In episode two if you don't side with her (literally, just not side with her, if you pick the neutral option) and try to offer her food, she says she doesn't want anything from you. You tell her to take it anyways, she says "This doesn't change anything". You offer an olive branch and she spits on it.
Seriously, the message I took from Lilly was that some people are truly irredeemable. If they're not beyond redemption then they simply don't want it, or don't believe they've done any wrong that requires redeeming. In most games with branching dialogue you're always given that option to talk people down and make them realize what they're doing is wrong. That's not what they did here. Nothing you can say or do changes Lilly. It's most apparent if you actually elect to go with her, the look on her face says it all.
She doesn't believe Lee when he says he'll come with her, despite the fact she was the one who suggested it in the first place. She never expected him to say yes (she literally says that if you refuse) because she refuses to believe anyone could ever genuinely want to help her. And if you challenge this belief, what does she do? She tells Lee to get Clementine to get him out of the R.V. and goes off alone anyways. Even if you don't think that makes Lilly a monster it does prove she doesn't want anyone else’s help. And nothing you say or do ever changes that. Even if your choices as Lee have never once given her any reason to distrust him, she won't trust him.
And this is the very BEST outcome you can reach with Lilly. If you helped Kenny in the meat locker and let her back in the R.V. she tells Lee she could have killed him when his back was turned. Lilly kills Carley for seemingly minor slights, or kills Doug by accident because she’s a careless paranoid lunatic. She might tell Lee she was thinking of killing him and I have no doubt she wanted to kill Kenny too. Everything Lee says about the person he killed suggests he regretted it. Everything Lilly says just makes me think she regretted not killing more people.
And this had nothing to do with her originally being a comic character and having to leave the story. Telltale could have easily contrived things where if you were sympathetic to her you could have talked her down from stealing the R.V. and show she wasn't a complete amoral sociopath. If that happened Kenny would probably insist on leaving Lilly behind after the train was running and since he couldn't take the R.V. with him things would have worked out the same continuity wise.
But that didn't happen because that's not the kind of person Lilly was. This idea that all she needed to be made well was a little TLC is absurd. Ignoring the fact she would in all likely hood refuse such things, curing psychological problems even for people who do want help and want to be cured is typically difficult, time consuming, often requires medication and still has a high chance of failure. And this is under IDEAL circumstances, something the end of the world is not.
We don’t execute people with mental problems but that doesn’t mean we can cure everyone with a mental condition anymore than we can cure everyone with cancer, and again, that’s in a functional world. And even in a functional world, the criminally insane are still locked up where they can’t hurt anyone else until they are possibly cured or rehabilitated, something Lilly seems to resent.
As far as I’m concerned, I gave Lilly every chance I could and she refused every single one. I let her back in the R.V. because Lee got a second chance after committing murder and he went on to do a lot of good. Lilly used it to betray the same person who spared her what was effectively a death sentence. Even a bleeding heart like me has his limits. If Lilly appears in season two I wouldn’t hesitate to kill her on the grounds she’s a dangerous lunatic who’s a threat to others and I saw nothing that would ever suggest that’s going to change about her.
This is what I admire the most about you; you completely understand the characters in The Walking Dead way more than the rest of us and tell what their background history is before the plague, their feelings, reasons for their choices, their role, and other stuff like that.
I do not care what mental problems she may or may not of had. Air Force must of lowered standards if she is mental. I do know she is a weak minded selfish wanna be dictator cold blooded murdering hypocritical bitch that was lucky to suck my RV dust and not Carlys Glock.
Oh no... she's a bitch. Let's execute her? Really?
And, no excuses for her problems? She's probably been talked down to and mentally abused by her father her whole life. I never said she would be a good leader. I fucking said she would be a bad leader. Neither Kenny or Lilly would be good leaders. Hell, Ben would be a better leader than Lilly, because, while he was a dumb coward, he didn't have psychological issues. And you obviously don't understand psychological issues. You aren't just fine until you have a breakdown, and then you're crazy. No, she had these issues before her breakdown.
And not many people have their only family, someone who she'd probably grown to depend upon, have their head destroyed in front of you. Yeah, people lose family, but not like that.
So, you don't understand what I was saying. At all.
Yeah, I really DO. I've had family die right in front of my eyes asshole! I don't even know where my brother is, I haven't seen him in maybe 3 years. My sister has been in a relationship with a damn psycho who tried committing suicide many times. You know nothing about me as a person, so until you do, don't give me that shit! I love my family more than a lot of people, even those who don't care about me back. But I won't murder someone on the spot for no reason. Don't fucking give Lilly that excuse that she can kill whoever she wants either, especially someone who has been nothing but beneficial to the group, because her precious daddy died! That's not how it works. I don't know what world you are living in man, but ANYONE who murders someone in cold blood, mentally stable or not, is going to prison. Same with Lee right? At least Lee had a reason, and a good one. Lilly killed Carley because she actually used her "freedom of speech".
Yeah, in a functional world, she'd receive help, and be taken care of, but in the story, they can't drag a mentally unstable woman around with them, and I wouldn't let her just leave. She has thought about killing Lee, and so has most likely thought about killing Kenny. Ben? Definitely. She is a threat to the group, and who knows how long before HER itchy trigger finger got another person killed. There are no prisons, no mental asylums, and no supplies to keep a liability around. She had no sympathy for killing Carley/Doug, she just knew she was fucked, and that now she had nowhere to go. She killed Carley because she never liked her, but that is NO EXCUSE. You say how she is so dangerous, and yet you'd let her run free, that "get out of jail free" card. She was a terrible leader, you agree. So, since she knew she was snapping, why did she remain leader? Even after Kenny and Lee tried to step up while she recovered? Nobody could fill in? Sounds legit.
I don't care about her problems, she knew she wasn't thinking clearly, she knew she had problems, yet she was playing leader and running around with a pistol. Don't give the "it's dangerous out there". In case you haven't realized, Clem and Ben and Duck had been running around with no weapons, Clem and Duck for three episodes. Yeah, Duck was bitten, but that was more of stupidity than anything, that they waited so long to head for the RV. That and bad timing as Lee was distracted.
I didn't want her executed for being a bitch, I know many, and I wouldn't try to kill them even if I could, because I'm not like that. But put a gun to someone I care about? Harm them? Threaten those I like? Yeah, I will. And Lilly did all three for Lee. So yeah, I'd want her dead. Considering she was once made to be the Lilly of the comics, she never gets better. Actually, she gets worse, working for someone like the Governor. Her departure could have been a lot better than stealing the RV too.
And yeah, I understand psychological issues too, but the thing is, it doesn't matter! I have known many people, none have a bad bone in their body. It is the combination of such, plus the fact she is an asshole, is why I can't forgive her. Kill Larry? She upright hates you. But leave Dan or Andy alive? Suddenly you are a dick for letting "piece of shits" live.
I wouldn't let her live because if she makes it back to the group, she could cost another member of the group their life. So yeah, if I could, I'd probably have her killed, just as others dropped Ben for his in-capabilities,
or wanted Larry or Duck dead since meeting them.
Edit: Dude, I'm sorry for snapping at you, but don't go at someone for coming at their personal life if you don't know them. I'm not a bad guy, but I just wouldn't let her live, not after what she did. I just couldn't trust her, and there would be nothing able for her, as if it would matter. She'd still be horrible. But yeah, I have my opinions, you have yours. If you are going to argue, could you please not point at my lack of knowledge, my ignorance, my personal life, or stuff like that. It's walking dead, not Mark$man's story :P. But yeah... I sincerely apologize. That was out of tone. Sorry.
Every time i come on here to reply to post about Lilly there's a an essay from Jaded X that is so much better than anything i could write.
In the end there are a lot of reasons why she turns out the way she does, some of them sympathetic, others less so, but regardless she is dangerous and well past the point of no return with what she has done, there is no excuse that could ever be good enough.
As for her mental state the sick may not be executed by they are kept well out of the way of people they might hurt and are then treated by professional psychologists, not exactly possible in the situation, so while it's interesting to examine her character it doesn't really matter because the only choice that makes sense is to leave her, if not kill her before she hurts anyone else.
If an 8 year old girl can maintain after losing both parents. If Kenny can watch his wife and son die. If Lee can lose both parents and hack his brothers head into. If Carly can watch her news crew get eaten and listen to deaths of her friends. All these people dealing with death in number of ways some good some bad some sad but none of them turned and started shootin the people around them. For this reason it just proves how unstable Lily is. Sure no one wants to see there family killed but that is no excuse for Lily to threaten a child. Ben is a child. 16 is not an adult mind. Any adult that wants to kill a kid for stealing is fuckin sick. Nor is it reason enough to shoot an innocent woman who has not threaten Lily with any violence. So Larry getting his face mashed in is no excuse.
I may be in the wrong on this point, but i do not find insanity a valid reason for murder.
She wants to be the leader. If someone else tries to take charge, she always goes against them. Whatever psychological problems brought upon her from leadership is her own fault.
You do not get your hands dirty if you abandon Lilly on the road, since she has fought against the walkers for three months, knows how they act and how to avoid them/kill them, and has had good military experience. If we left someone like Ben on the road, who is fragile, frightened, uneducated militarily and can't stand being alone, then it would be the equivalent of murder. But with Lilly, leaving her is a completely different story. She knows how to survive.
Mentally unstable or not, she burned her seat on that RV by pulling the trigger of that pistol.
Apologies if I'm just rehashing what was said in the mega-post a little ways above, I'm short on time here and can't read it all.
Frankly, I think the group could have challenged her leadership successfully if Lee didn't have the baggage of his past and everyone else wasn't so afraid of confrontation.
Kenny of course challenged Lilly. Lee may have his back but he never really pushed for a leadership change. Everyone else except Larry was clearly uncomfortable with Lilly but generally avoided conflict. And I supposed most people would naturally rather avoid conflict when living in a group. This was a problem in a sense that for Lilly to step down, people needed to challenge her together.
When you think of it, what were Lilly's credentials to be leader? IMHO, her time in the Air Force is a weak claim. As anyone with military experience can tell you, the majority of servicemen and women have limited combat training and experience. Lilly is basically a pogue with a desk job (she clearly states she did "mechanical admin stuff" in ep 1). Besides whatever limited combat training she might have got a long time ago in Basic, her skill set isn't all that different from a civilian desk jockey. In other words, she isn't all that special from the other group members. Heck, I am willing to bet Carley has more firearms experience than Lilly.
While she may have gained useful management skills in the the Air Force, just having "military experience" doesn't automatically make one a qualified leader in a dangerous world. Officers and NCOs in combat trades have specific training courses, team culture, and experiences that prepare them for the sort of leadership Lilly was clearly unsuited for.
Lee as a history professor would know this. Carley would too, if saved in episode 1, because her character bio states she used to be a war correspondent , which meant she would've seen the difference between fobbits and actual combat soldiers.
So why do people tolerate Lilly as a leader? Because they are afraid of conflict. Whenever Lilly is challenged, both Lilly and Larry basically pop a few blood vessels, cause a massive scene, and stress everyone out. In a sense, Lilly's claim to leadership is maintained by her and Larry's ability to intimidate others into avoiding conflict.
If Lee wasn't afraid of his past, he could've spoke out a lot strongly against Lilly alongside Kenny and that might have perhaps rallied the others to ask Lilly to step down.
Finally, I am not saying Lilly couldn't be useful. But rather, she doesn't have strong credentials to be a leader, and her leadership seemed to be maintained by others timidity towards her and Larry's hotheadedness. I'm not saying one necessarily need to be a veteran to be a leader. Other qualities make a good leader, but Lilly simply lacks such qualities such as Lee's tactfulness (unless you play asshole Lee).
Frankly, I think the group could have challenged her leadership successfully if Lee didn't have the baggage of his past and everyone else wasn't so afraid of confrontation.
Kenny of course challenged Lilly. Lee may have his back but he never really pushed for a leadership change. Everyone else except Larry was clearly uncomfortable with Lilly but generally avoided conflict. And I supposed most people would naturally rather avoid conflict when living in a group. This was a problem in a sense that for Lilly to step down, people needed to challenge her together.
When you think of it, what were Lilly's credentials to be leader? IMHO, her time in the Air Force is a weak claim. As anyone with military experience can tell you, the majority of servicemen and women have limited combat training and experience. Lilly is basically a pogue with a desk job (she clearly states she did "mechanical admin stuff" in ep 1). Besides whatever limited combat training she might have got a long time ago in Basic, her skill set isn't all that different from a civilian desk jockey. In other words, she isn't all that special from the other group members. Heck, I am willing to bet Carley has more firearms experience than Lilly.
While she may have gained useful management skills in the the Air Force, just having "military experience" doesn't automatically make one a qualified leader in a dangerous world. Officers and NCOs in combat trades have specific training courses, team culture, and experiences that prepare them for the sort of leadership Lilly was clearly unsuited for.
Lee as a history professor would know this. Carley would too, if saved in episode 1, because her character bio states she used to be a war correspondent , which meant she would've seen the difference between fobbits and actual combat soldiers.
So why do people tolerate Lilly as a leader? Because they are afraid of conflict. Whenever Lilly is challenged, both Lilly and Larry basically pop a few blood vessels, cause a massive scene, and stress everyone out. In a sense, Lilly's claim to leadership is maintained by her and Larry's ability to intimidate others into avoiding conflict.
If Lee wasn't afraid of his past, he could've spoke out a lot strongly against Lilly alongside Kenny and that might have perhaps rallied the others to ask Lilly to step down.
Finally, I am not saying Lilly couldn't be useful. But rather, she doesn't have strong credentials to be a leader, and her leadership seemed to be maintained by others timidity towards her and Larry's hotheadedness. I'm not saying one necessarily need to be a veteran to be a leader. Other qualities make a good leader, but Lilly simply lacks such qualities such as Lee's tactfulness (unless you play asshole Lee).
Lol, but asshole Lee is fun! "Do I get a vote?" "NO" LMAO.
Anyway, Lee and co. tried to get her to step down from leadership many times, but Lilly never wants to deal with it. You can't become leader if the leader won't step down from power, and she wouldn't even listen to it. "I just want a week of peace... of NOT hearing it!" The only way I could see to make her step down would be forcefully, with a gun to her forehead. That wouldn't end well, she has thought about killing Lee before, and that definitely means Kenny, and obviously she wanted Carley dead too. So... I don't see a way to remove her from her dictatorship that wouldn't end with a bullet through her skull, and the group wouldn't do that.
I may be in the wrong on this point, but i do not find insanity a valid reason for murder.
She wants to be the leader. If someone else tries to take charge, she always goes against them. Whatever psychological problems brought upon her from leadership is her own fault.
You do not get your hands dirty if you abandon Lilly on the road, since she has fought against the walkers for three months, knows how they act and how to avoid them/kill them, and has had good military experience. If we left someone like Ben on the road, who is fragile, frightened, uneducated militarily and can't stand being alone, then it would be the equivalent of murder. But with Lilly, leaving her is a completely different story. She knows how to survive.
Mentally unstable or not, she burned her seat on that RV by pulling the trigger of that pistol.
Apologies if I'm just rehashing what was said in the mega-post a little ways above, I'm short on time here and can't read it all.
The only other person that really seemed to want the job was Kenny, and we saw how following his plan went: the remainder of the group with the exception of Clementine end up dead, with Omid, Christa and Kenny himself potentially surviving.
And I kinda feel the need to say that I pretty much predicted that happening way back before Episode 3 was released... I could probably track down the posts. Right down to figuring that there probably wouldn't be any useable boats at the dock, to the group running into more walkers as they neared the coast than they had anywhere else, so it's not like these were unforseeable consequences.
Anywho... Realistically, it'd be a death sentence to just leave either one without supplies. Yeah, the odds of Lilly's survival are probably better than Ben's, but in the same way that somebody's more likely to get struck by lightning than winning the lottery. The chances are pretty damn remote in either case.
Things like dehydration have zero fucks to give about how badass you think you are.
That said, I still left her. With Ben being the only potential "victim"? Much harder call (for me anyway). Had I the option, I would've left him behind then and there.
I would have left her no matter who she shot. The mere fact she would shoot someone in the group disgusts me. She shot Carley because she just does not like her. Why? I don't know. Maybe because she's jealous of her, jealous of Carley and Lee's relationship. I personally think its because Carley does not want to be bossed around by Lilly and Carley doesn't see her as a leader. Lilly won't accept that as mentioned before when Carley calls Kenny Boss in the drugstore Lilly shows annoyance. Its also why she ainly accuses Carley instead of Ben, because she personally does not like Carley. The fact she would shoot anyone is enough for me to leave her. The fact she shot Carley out of spite makes me absolutely hate her.
A kill is a kill. Doesn't matter who it was, if she would just shoot someone in the head because of an argument, then she is too dangerous and unpredictable to keep with us. Well, I say that, but I didn't leave her even when she shot Carley. Don't like killing people, for whatever reason.
Depends on the viewpoint. If you see Ben as a traitor who ruined a lot of lifes and as a not team player (being a team and not just a group helps in survival) then Lily did the right thing. No room for mistakes in a ZA. Instead, seeing him as an abandoned survivor who needed help but never got it, then Lily acted wrongly. Half the blame goes to the group for not helping him. Also killing someone doesn't help him become a better person, it helps him become either a z-meal or a walker.
Even if she killed Doug, Carly or her original target Ben, she was still good to Lee and Clementine in my play through and she had just saved the group from the bandits attack. She only ran off with the RV because she had been tied up and probably thought the group were planning to kill her or leave her somewhere any way. If she wasn't tied up she wouldn't have stole the RV she would have gone to Savannah if she was forgiven. The only person that would of been in danger would of been Ben. She was tied to keep her from killing Ben. (I seem to recall someone else wanting to kill Ben for the same reason as her. Oh yeah it was Kenny in ep4) She was cool with everybody else. If she wanted Kenny dead he would have been dead already.
The fact that she stole the RV even if you sided with her 100% shows she never gave a damn about Lee or Clementine. The bandit attack, she took a chance with that, luckily those bandits were stupid, they could've killed the whole group after that one shot. Besides, it was her stubbornness the bandits attacked in the first place by keeping the whole group at the motel even when she knows bandits are in the area. If the group wanted her dead after what she did to Carley, they would've killed her and she knew that, this is the group that had no intention of killing the St Johns, there reaction to Lee to kicking Andy St John into the electric fence says it all.
If she wasn't tied up, she would've tried something else, taking the RV shows that, if she had a gun, she would've killed Lee if he had tried to stop her but lucky for her, Lee was weak. Surely she should know why she had to be tied up yet she complains about it, what did she expect the group to do after she murdered a kind & useful member of the group? Rub her belly and tell her it's OK. Her taking the RV shows how selfish she is because she was leaving people who never did anything to her(excluding Kenny & possibly Lee) for dead.
She was not only a danger to Ben, if she can kill someone as innocent as Carley, she can kill anyone including Lee, heck, she even stated that she wanted to kill him when his back was turned and Kenny's not far behind, how much more proof do you need? the thought that she can snap when someone sticks up for themselves is enough to prove that. And forgiveness is a lot to ask and there was no forgiving that, besides, she herself believes she did nothing wrong, that just shows how sick & cold blooded she is. She was not cool with everybody else, she constantly snaps and yells, she even stated she has a list of people she trusts get smaller each day when she has no reason to distrust them.
Granted, Kenny wanted Ben dead but that's it. There's a difference between wanting someone who got your family killed dead and actually killing someone for no reason. She wanted Kenny dead but she didn't have the guts to kill anyone to their face, why do you think she sent him for a supply run even though he has a gun shot wound? but after her first victim, Kenny would most likely have been next.
So many leaved her behind? I really liked her, he got allot of weight on her shoulders and she pushed trough it, her dad's fucking head was crushed in front of her, and she still saved me, two times against the two brothers.
She was a crack shot like Carley, she was a huge asset to the team. I hate that she had to run with the r/v, she was like Andrea+Michonne+Abraham = Lilly.
Well, i just hope i found her alive in upcoming episodes.
Comments
Whether or not I regretted it later, I tried to support what fragments of the group I had left.
To basically cut/paste what I've said elsewhere; it's not like today where if somebody steals your food or drugs you can just head to the grocery store to buy replacements or call up the pharmacy for a refill. And more than anything else, drugs like antibiotics can't be replaced - you can learn to hunt for food, you can boil water to make it drinkable, you get an infection from an injury while working or hunting or a burn from boiling water? Only recourse is to pick a fungus, pray, and hope it works (it probably won't).
By necessity, the death penalty (or its equivalent) would become a lot more common regardless of the crime. There's not a whole lot of man-hours you can expend on due process before it takes time away from little things like survival. Ditto for whatever punishment you'd prefer for the guilty party. Imprison them? More man-hours expended watching them and resources spent on a non-productive group member. Sentence them to hard labour? Again, more man-hours expended to make sure they do it. Exile? Odds are that's just a more inhumane death sentence where you can pretend your hands are clean.
Had Lilly only killed Ben, I would've atleast entertained taking her. There was enough to convince me Ben was guilty too. We didn't necessarily have good evidence Ben was guilty; that's not the same as having no evidence.
He admits that he hurt his wife. He went to court and was sentenced. Lee also is able to say all sorts of different things that aren't true. It's up to the player to decide, but my point is that people shouldn't be so quick to condemn others without looking at the person they got so sad about.
When Lee can say people do get sent to jail when they shouldn't in episode 3, this could be a hint that he was innocent but could not be proven so, but i guess it is indeed up to the player to determine if those words are the truth.
So why did Lily wanna kill Carly? She does not have a reason I can think of. Maybe Carly callin Lily out on her bullshit. Not really a reason though.....Lee/Kenny/Larry have all told her she was wrong or to be quiet/shut up. So.....
Just search up Jaded X Gamer's post history...
He goes way more in depth than i ever could about explaining how bad a person Lilly is right from episode 1 and why she would end up doing something like murdering Carley.
I think it was just Carley standing up to her. Lilly's a tyrant and wants everyone to bow before her, and she gets royally pissed if you don't. Combined with losing the motor inn(which she desperately wanted to stay at for no real reason), having a traitor in a group, and losing her father the rage just swelled up inside her and she cracked, killing Carley. It's not a good enough reason for murder, but Lilly didn't care.
No. She's a mentally unstable person. Not a "tyrant". She seems to have what's known as a superiority complex, in which you act superior to cover up your own insecurities and feeling inferior to everyone else. She wants to be the leader, and she seems to always has. However, she wasn't able to actually work in the military, and was stuck working a desk job. When she got the chance to be a leader, she jumped at it, not realizing how hard it was to actually lead. She didn't like Kenny because he challenged her, so with the hardships of being a leader in a disaster, along with the death of her father, she was obviously not stable.
As hinted at a few times, she might have been romantically interested in Lee, and yet Carley seemed to be better than her in many ways. She was closer to Lee, was a better shot, and Lee seemed to like Carley more. When Carley pointed out her flaws, she shot her. She obviously did care, but not so much about Carley, but about how everyone else reacted to her killing Carley.
Of course, I'm not a psychologist, so I could be dead wrong. This is just a theory.
No, she was a tyrant. She argues with Kenny and others even if she knows they are right, just because she wants her way. It doesn't matter how many people decide differenly, she wants to lead the group her own way. She admits to the importance of things and then goes around them purposely, and has gone againt group voting (deaths of Carley/Doug). You really need to read some of JadedxGamer's posts. They can do my stance more justice.
Look up what tyrant means before throwing the word around. And try actually reading my post.
That was my realization upon replays. She wasn't sorry for killing Carley, she was sorry that in killing Carley she turned the group against her. Her reaction with Doug might suggest she might have cared about killing him but I just think it was her coming to the afore mentioned realization sooner. With killing Carley she probably holds on to some sliver of hope in rationalizing what she did to the others ("She couldn't trusted!"), with Doug she immediately realized she just fucked herself over.
I don't disagree about Lilly having superiority complex either but I think her insistence on being a leader served a specific purpose, giving herself a justification for not putting herself at risk. I think she was a lot more afraid of what was going on then she ever let on and calling herself the leader gave her an excuse to put herself in whatever was the safest position.
She didn't want anyone to open the door at the drug store, she never wanted to leave the Motor-Inn, she wanted to leave the dairy the very second she saw Mark hurt because it probably made her realize she could get hurt. She consistently refused to leave anywhere remotely safe and freaks the fuck out whenever that happens.
She's terrified of what's going on out there but she won't admit it. It's why we never see her do supply runs or hunt for food. It's why she's against any kind of change in scenery. It's why she's on watch in episode two, where's she's off the ground where walkers can't get the jump on her, and it's why she's off watch in episode three, because they're under attack by things that shoot back.
She also disappears during the pharmacy attack. Supposedly to get her dad out but we see Larry waiting in the office to punch Lee, so where'd Lilly go? Why didn't she help Doug, Lee and Carley defend the store? Really the only time we see her putting herself at risk is at the St. Johns and the bandit attack, both situations where risk was nigh unavoidable, and both times she let's Lee go first while she lags behind with a rifle that let's her keep her a relative safe distance.
This is what really kills me when people compare Kenny and Lilly and act like they're mostly the same. No matter how you play, Kenny takes a shitload more risks than Lilly ever did. Whenever for just himself or not is debatable, but people who complain about Kenny trying to leave them behind often fail to realize that Lilly never even bothers to come with you in the first place. She lacks the courage to leave her comfort zone.
No matter what your choices, Kenny goes hunting for food, goes on supply runs, and goes to Crawford. Crawford in particular really highlights the key difference between Kenny and Lilly in my opinion. Kenny doesn't hesitate to go with Brie to get gas and leaves Ben in the safety of the classroom. In episode three, Lilly was sulking in her room while Ken and Lee went out for supplies and Ben of all people was put on watch, probably because she's too afraid to stay outside while the bandits are still a threat.
Ultimately, fear was probably why she stole the R.V. as well. No way in hell the group was going to let her lag behind somewhere safe after what she did, so she takes what little relative safety there's left and ditches everybody to protect herself. And even if Lee says he'll come with her she'll ditch him too, probably because she was afraid he would go tell the others what she was doing.
Carley really nailed it when she called Lilly a scared little girl masquerading as a tough bitch. All her bravado was really just to hide how frightened she was of everything.
Yes. You're right on pretty much everything, except saying that she didn't care about killing Doug. Doug didn't do anything to undermine her leadership. Doug was fine, and in her eyes a good ally. She didn't think of him as competition, because she knew she didn't specialize in any of the things he did, and she didn't have to compete with Doug for Lee's affection.
Lilly shouldn't be judged on her being a bad person. She's just not cut out for the role she tries to play, and due to her issues, she doesn't want to admit it. She's not a bad person. She's just, as Carley put it... A scared little girl.
However, that doesn't mean Kenny is much better. He's too worried about his own family to be a good leader. He's a more or less good guy, but he's been pushed too far. He takes anything not exactly for him, as against him and his family.
Also; this is how you write a concise argument. Don't just point to someone else and shout "They can do it better!" You aren't winning any debates like that.
If that was directed at me, i was not trying to debate at all. Someone directly asks me for a reason behind Lilly's actions, and if i can't provide one but can point to someone else who can(or can bring a closer answer), I'll do so rather than leaving them in the dark.
Actually, more so at Mark$man. You put that you didn't know, but Mark$man just tried to argue, and then put that I had to read Jaded X Gamer's post history.
Una cosa es no dejar a nadie de los tuyos cuando son un equipo y otra es cuando se matan unos a otros, jamás debes permitir que esto pase porque se rompe la integridad dentro del equipo cuestionan tu autoridad, en este caso debes ver por los demás suena feo pero es verdad si tengo una niña a mi cargo y permito que se maten pensara que todos van a morir tarde o temprano si el grupo se destruye con forme avanza la historia lo más razonable es dejar el grupo y llevarte a la niña para mantener su integridad física ya que la integridad mental no se puede restablecer dentro del equipo. Para tener adiestramiento dejo claro que es una persona inestable y eso es un verdadero problema te puede matar en cualquier momento alegando que podías ser un peligro por pensar diferente en el caso de Lee y Clementine principalmente la consideraría un peligro potencial dentro del grupo por ser débil físicamente y pondríamos más atención en ella, en vez del grupo.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxDo not get me wrong.
One thing is to not let anyone in your family when one team and another is when they kill each other, you must never let this happen because it breaks the integrity within the team questioning your authority, in this case you should see the other sounds bad but it's true if I have a girl in my office and let them kill think that all will die sooner or later if the group is destroyed to form the story progresses it is reasonable to leave the group and take the girl to keep their physical and mental integrity that can not be restored within the team. To have made it clear that training is an unstable person and that's a real problem can kill you at any time alleging that could be a danger for thinking differently in the case of Lee and Clementine mainly considered a potential hazard within the group for being weak physically and would put more attention on it, instead of the group.
Voted yes. Her killing Ben in place of Carley wouldn't have effected me to the same extent since i cared about her more than him and if it was him i could buy that the decision to kill was based on anything other than hate, but ultimately Lilly's crime is the same and punishment would have been the same.
IMO she's just lucky not to get the death penalty.
I do that because Jaded does it better, and has it already written out. The point of the threads are to be read. I don't mean to argue, but I just really hate Lilly. I tolerated her before she kills Doug/Carley, after which I just can't stand her.
And I read your post before replying, and I really don't get what you are talking about. I really don't care about her mentality as to her being basically a tyrant. And yes, I know what it means, although I may put my own twist to it. I'd say maybe more of a dictator. She is such a hypocrite that no matter the voting, her say is all that matters. Even though everyone wanted her to stop her accusations and voted to stop for the time being, she continued accusing Ben and Carley, and later tried to execute someone with no evidence or reason. Even after Kenny and others purpose to leave the motor inn, she still refuses to leave even though there is nothing there, just for her 'safety'. She puts her father and herself over anyone else, and as a leader that is not allowed. She is anything less than a leader, and as a leader she acts like how Kenny calls her "own personal dictatorship". I don't expect others to understand my hatred of Lilly or if they do, agree with it. However, it is how I feel that she is a horrible person and I feel that if I had had an option, I would have executed her. Sorry if you don't like that.
Do...
Okay. You obviously don't understand what I was trying to say.
I cited a REAL psychological complex that fit with Lilly, and explained how that fit with everything she did. It's not really her fault, it's more everyone else's fault for not stepping in and getting her to stop, before she did more damage to herself and the group. She's not a "horrible person" because she's not real, and she's fucking SICK. Like, this isn't a never gonna get better sick. This is the kind of sick that a little bit of time with a psychiatrist could help. Or, hell, maybe just helping her face her insecurities, and giving her some time off from leadership would help.
There's a reason people with mental illnesses don't get executed.
More like a shit load of time after being committed to a mental hospital. In addition to her insecurities she has zero empathy for anyone who's not her father and even then she seems more concerned with her own safety than his. (Unlike Kenny, she won't refuse food if her family isn't feed first.) Then there's her antisocial, borderline sociopathic behavior. If you call her an asshole in Macon she seems to wear the insult as a badge of pride by saying "That's what it takes!"
I disagree that Lilly was not a bad person. We don't know what she was like pre-apocalypse but from the little tidbits I gleamed and the way her father acts and how she reacts to him suggests to me she was probably a lousy person before things went bad. Obviously not a crazy killer or anything drastic, but I think she was probably a shitty person in normal life and the ZA pushed her to drastic new lows in the end. For me, taking the R.V. was a clear sign of the type of person she really was.
Both Lilly and Larry feel like those specific kind of selfish assholes everyone seems to get as a boss at some point. You know the type. Never pleased with anything anyone does, goes around yelling at people, blames their fuck-ups on others, take their problems out on people who have nothing to do with them, and at the end of the day everyone else gathers around to talk about what assholes they are. Their role in the story, to me, was to show just how dangerous those people would really be in such dire circumstances.
It's just speculation on my part but when you ask Lilly what she does she says she "works with a bunch of shitheads and bureaucrats" with a sense of resentment that suggests she doesn't like any of the people she works with. Contrast that with Carley who calls her news editor an asshole but is still clearly upset by her death and finds her radio station's sudden sign off distressing. You can also see Lilly’s lack of humanity in how quick she is to throw anyone out who isn’t useful to her.
Judging from her father and her anti-social behavior, (she seems almost at a loss what to say when Lee gives her an energy bar) I'm thinking she never really had many, if any friends. Larry probably raised her to believe she had to always be ruthless to get things done and even if he didn't, just having Larry as a father probably scared off a lot of potential friends. Imagine going over to her house and running into this...
I don't think it's a stretch to say Larry was probably a fairly shitty father. I doubt he ever beat Lilly or anything severe like that but, even if it was unintentional, he was probably responsible for a lot of his daughter's psychological issues. He's the one both pushing Lilly into the role as leader and insisting she rule as a heartless prick and considering what an awful judge of character he is (tries to murder Lee, sucks up to family of cannibals) he’s probably passed on his own fucked up perspective to Lilly.
He constantly berates her anytime she acts like less than a bossy asshole and she clearly never worked up the courage to tell her old man off, so she just does whatever he says to placate him. She even says she didn't agree with him on the Duck being bitten thing, but didn't object just the same. It's probably been that way her whole life. Constantly vying for her father's approval by doing what he wants, then covertly running damage control with other people because on some level she knows he's a jackass.
And since she never got the nerve up to go against Larry, he probably chased off any possible friends she could ever make. And that would make him all Lilly has in the world, and that probably caused her to double down on appeasing him out of fear of being completely alone. But she's a fucking grown woman and she's surrounded by other people. At some point it became a conscious choice. Larry said it himself. “She can make her own friends.” She chooses not to.
While I agree she's sick in the head and a tragic character, I still think she's a bad person. Lilly doesn't want to be helped and she doesn't want to change. The issue isn't she can't get better as much as she doesn't want to. You suggest the others should have stepped up to stop her from being leader but what more could they have done that they didn’t already try?
Kenny questions her leadership from the moment he meets her, Carley and Glenn disobey her in Macon, nobody acted to get rid of Ben and Travis/David when they were brought in and Mark, Carley, Kenny and possibly Lee all argue against her. Kenny flat out tells her in episode three that someone needs to make decisions for the group and he doesn't think Lilly's capable anymore. She responds by changing the subject, then when Kenny tries to follow up on that line of thought, she changes it again and yells at everyone to get out. You can’t have a discussion with someone who doesn’t want to talk.
Other than forcing her at gunpoint to give up her claim as a leader, an act that may have been seen as crazy and certainly hostile in itself, what were the others suppose to do? She wouldn't accept "time off from leadership" either because that means not being leader which means she might be put in a position of potential risk. Instead she asks for a week of not hearing about real problems the group was facing, not suggesting that someone else handle these problems in her absence. The missing supplies probably would have gone uninvestigated if Carley/Doug didn’t prod Lee into looking for them.
And good luck at tackling her insecurities, she interprets anything said about her that's not entirely complimentary as an attack. If she doesn't counterattack what you say she just deflects it. If you try to address her mental instability in episode three she just changes the subject back to the missing supplies. You try to talk to her in the R.V. after she shoots someone she just complains about being tied up, then outright refuses to talk at all if you try to follow up with her.
Carley finally called Lilly out on her cowardly tendencies and got a bullet to the head for her trouble, why? Why does Lilly hate Carley? I refuse to believe it’s because Lilly is in love with Lee and jealous of Carley, especially because it’s possible for Lee to be an utter asshole to Lilly. Lilly hates Carley because Lilly interprets anything Carley does “against” Lilly as a personal attack. Carley argues against Lilly when Ben and company are brought back, she defends herself and Ben against Lilly’s accusations, she disobeyed Lilly in Macon to save Lee and four others. Lilly get’s pissed as hell when Carley offhandedly called Kenny boss in Macon.
People complain about Kenny being a whiny bitch if you don’t “have his back” but Lilly clearly harbors a deep seated hatred for Carley for every minor infraction against Lilly’s already incredibly weak authority. You pay attention to the argument in the R.V. and she accuses Carley, not Ben, of stealing. The only times Ben is brought into the argument is either because both him and Carley are being accused (usually for defending Carley and himself) or because Lilly tells Ben she’ll let him off the hook if he just says it was Carley. And all of this happens before Carley calls Lilly a scared girl.
Lilly is quite literally unreasonable. You can’t reason with her, before or after her dad dies. She also seems to think almost any kind of help or kindness is at best, pity and at worst, deception. She seems to resent the idea of "getting hell" as much as being "coddled" and one her dialogue options is "I'm not going to play the victim." She resents being helped, it probably makes her feel weak, and if you tried to tell her that, she'd probably resent that accusation and tell you "Don't start with me."
And that's if you're on GOOD terms with Lilly. If she hates Lee she's far worse. If you bring up her being unstable then she throws what you and Kenny did back at you and she basically tells you to fuck off for anything you think. In episode two if you don't side with her (literally, just not side with her, if you pick the neutral option) and try to offer her food, she says she doesn't want anything from you. You tell her to take it anyways, she says "This doesn't change anything". You offer an olive branch and she spits on it.
Seriously, the message I took from Lilly was that some people are truly irredeemable. If they're not beyond redemption then they simply don't want it, or don't believe they've done any wrong that requires redeeming. In most games with branching dialogue you're always given that option to talk people down and make them realize what they're doing is wrong. That's not what they did here. Nothing you can say or do changes Lilly. It's most apparent if you actually elect to go with her, the look on her face says it all.
She doesn't believe Lee when he says he'll come with her, despite the fact she was the one who suggested it in the first place. She never expected him to say yes (she literally says that if you refuse) because she refuses to believe anyone could ever genuinely want to help her. And if you challenge this belief, what does she do? She tells Lee to get Clementine to get him out of the R.V. and goes off alone anyways. Even if you don't think that makes Lilly a monster it does prove she doesn't want anyone else’s help. And nothing you say or do ever changes that. Even if your choices as Lee have never once given her any reason to distrust him, she won't trust him.
And this is the very BEST outcome you can reach with Lilly. If you helped Kenny in the meat locker and let her back in the R.V. she tells Lee she could have killed him when his back was turned. Lilly kills Carley for seemingly minor slights, or kills Doug by accident because she’s a careless paranoid lunatic. She might tell Lee she was thinking of killing him and I have no doubt she wanted to kill Kenny too. Everything Lee says about the person he killed suggests he regretted it. Everything Lilly says just makes me think she regretted not killing more people.
And this had nothing to do with her originally being a comic character and having to leave the story. Telltale could have easily contrived things where if you were sympathetic to her you could have talked her down from stealing the R.V. and show she wasn't a complete amoral sociopath. If that happened Kenny would probably insist on leaving Lilly behind after the train was running and since he couldn't take the R.V. with him things would have worked out the same continuity wise.
But that didn't happen because that's not the kind of person Lilly was. This idea that all she needed to be made well was a little TLC is absurd. Ignoring the fact she would in all likely hood refuse such things, curing psychological problems even for people who do want help and want to be cured is typically difficult, time consuming, often requires medication and still has a high chance of failure. And this is under IDEAL circumstances, something the end of the world is not.
We don’t execute people with mental problems but that doesn’t mean we can cure everyone with a mental condition anymore than we can cure everyone with cancer, and again, that’s in a functional world. And even in a functional world, the criminally insane are still locked up where they can’t hurt anyone else until they are possibly cured or rehabilitated, something Lilly seems to resent.
As far as I’m concerned, I gave Lilly every chance I could and she refused every single one. I let her back in the R.V. because Lee got a second chance after committing murder and he went on to do a lot of good. Lilly used it to betray the same person who spared her what was effectively a death sentence. Even a bleeding heart like me has his limits. If Lilly appears in season two I wouldn’t hesitate to kill her on the grounds she’s a dangerous lunatic who’s a threat to others and I saw nothing that would ever suggest that’s going to change about her.
People in older times with mental illnesses were plain executed, so quite the opposite until recently, actually :P. And yeah, I understood you talking about Lilly's "insecurities", but it means little to being a dictator lol. I don't see any excuses for her problems. For a mental person, she seemed to do fine with being in the Air Force, taking shit from her father, and her daily life problems. But suddenly when they are all safe, then it's a perfect time to go crazy. Yeah, she lost her father. No offense to her, but I really don't accept that. People lose family all the time, and that man was dead. There were no paramedics, no meds for him, and they were locked in a room with the soon-to-be zombie, and even if they saved him still had to find a way out. And no, she just wasn't a good leader. Even if she got her head straight, she still wouldn't be. Before all the shit that caused her mental breakdown, she was still a terrible person, and not fit for social life lol.
I understand what you are saying, and yeah she probably had those problems, but no matter what they were problems that could not be fixed. Even if you cleared her insanity, she was still a bitch. Yeah, it is a game, but she is a realistic character(in person standards).
Oh no... she's a bitch. Let's execute her? Really?
And, no excuses for her problems? She's probably been talked down to and mentally abused by her father her whole life. I never said she would be a good leader. I fucking said she would be a bad leader. Neither Kenny or Lilly would be good leaders. Hell, Ben would be a better leader than Lilly, because, while he was a dumb coward, he didn't have psychological issues. And you obviously don't understand psychological issues. You aren't just fine until you have a breakdown, and then you're crazy. No, she had these issues before her breakdown.
And not many people have their only family, someone who she'd probably grown to depend upon, have their head destroyed in front of you. Yeah, people lose family, but not like that.
So, you don't understand what I was saying. At all.
I agree with every word. I've stated I'd kill Lilly with no problem sleeping that night xD I'd probably have sweet dreams lol. There is no nice Lilly, not in the game, not in the comics, not in the fanfiction. She is horrible 360 degrees. If she comes back to the group I wouldn't let her live, I couldn't trust her around Clem. And yeah, I remember her talking about killing Lee, and with his BACK TURNED. Jesus, how many people does she have to kill like a coward before she feels good about herself? lol I really hate the woman. I love your rants, just because it fuels my rage for Lilly Caul :P
This is what I admire the most about you; you completely understand the characters in The Walking Dead way more than the rest of us and tell what their background history is before the plague, their feelings, reasons for their choices, their role, and other stuff like that.
Yeah, I really DO. I've had family die right in front of my eyes asshole! I don't even know where my brother is, I haven't seen him in maybe 3 years. My sister has been in a relationship with a damn psycho who tried committing suicide many times. You know nothing about me as a person, so until you do, don't give me that shit! I love my family more than a lot of people, even those who don't care about me back. But I won't murder someone on the spot for no reason. Don't fucking give Lilly that excuse that she can kill whoever she wants either, especially someone who has been nothing but beneficial to the group, because her precious daddy died! That's not how it works. I don't know what world you are living in man, but ANYONE who murders someone in cold blood, mentally stable or not, is going to prison. Same with Lee right? At least Lee had a reason, and a good one. Lilly killed Carley because she actually used her "freedom of speech".
Yeah, in a functional world, she'd receive help, and be taken care of, but in the story, they can't drag a mentally unstable woman around with them, and I wouldn't let her just leave. She has thought about killing Lee, and so has most likely thought about killing Kenny. Ben? Definitely. She is a threat to the group, and who knows how long before HER itchy trigger finger got another person killed. There are no prisons, no mental asylums, and no supplies to keep a liability around. She had no sympathy for killing Carley/Doug, she just knew she was fucked, and that now she had nowhere to go. She killed Carley because she never liked her, but that is NO EXCUSE. You say how she is so dangerous, and yet you'd let her run free, that "get out of jail free" card. She was a terrible leader, you agree. So, since she knew she was snapping, why did she remain leader? Even after Kenny and Lee tried to step up while she recovered? Nobody could fill in? Sounds legit.
I don't care about her problems, she knew she wasn't thinking clearly, she knew she had problems, yet she was playing leader and running around with a pistol. Don't give the "it's dangerous out there". In case you haven't realized, Clem and Ben and Duck had been running around with no weapons, Clem and Duck for three episodes. Yeah, Duck was bitten, but that was more of stupidity than anything, that they waited so long to head for the RV. That and bad timing as Lee was distracted.
I didn't want her executed for being a bitch, I know many, and I wouldn't try to kill them even if I could, because I'm not like that. But put a gun to someone I care about? Harm them? Threaten those I like? Yeah, I will. And Lilly did all three for Lee. So yeah, I'd want her dead. Considering she was once made to be the Lilly of the comics, she never gets better. Actually, she gets worse, working for someone like the Governor. Her departure could have been a lot better than stealing the RV too.
And yeah, I understand psychological issues too, but the thing is, it doesn't matter! I have known many people, none have a bad bone in their body. It is the combination of such, plus the fact she is an asshole, is why I can't forgive her. Kill Larry? She upright hates you. But leave Dan or Andy alive? Suddenly you are a dick for letting "piece of shits" live.
I wouldn't let her live because if she makes it back to the group, she could cost another member of the group their life. So yeah, if I could, I'd probably have her killed, just as others dropped Ben for his in-capabilities,
or wanted Larry or Duck dead since meeting them.
Edit: Dude, I'm sorry for snapping at you, but don't go at someone for coming at their personal life if you don't know them. I'm not a bad guy, but I just wouldn't let her live, not after what she did. I just couldn't trust her, and there would be nothing able for her, as if it would matter. She'd still be horrible. But yeah, I have my opinions, you have yours. If you are going to argue, could you please not point at my lack of knowledge, my ignorance, my personal life, or stuff like that. It's walking dead, not Mark$man's story :P. But yeah... I sincerely apologize. That was out of tone. Sorry.
In the end there are a lot of reasons why she turns out the way she does, some of them sympathetic, others less so, but regardless she is dangerous and well past the point of no return with what she has done, there is no excuse that could ever be good enough.
As for her mental state the sick may not be executed by they are kept well out of the way of people they might hurt and are then treated by professional psychologists, not exactly possible in the situation, so while it's interesting to examine her character it doesn't really matter because the only choice that makes sense is to leave her, if not kill her before she hurts anyone else.
She wants to be the leader. If someone else tries to take charge, she always goes against them. Whatever psychological problems brought upon her from leadership is her own fault.
You do not get your hands dirty if you abandon Lilly on the road, since she has fought against the walkers for three months, knows how they act and how to avoid them/kill them, and has had good military experience. If we left someone like Ben on the road, who is fragile, frightened, uneducated militarily and can't stand being alone, then it would be the equivalent of murder. But with Lilly, leaving her is a completely different story. She knows how to survive.
Mentally unstable or not, she burned her seat on that RV by pulling the trigger of that pistol.
Apologies if I'm just rehashing what was said in the mega-post a little ways above, I'm short on time here and can't read it all.
Absolutely.
Frankly, I think the group could have challenged her leadership successfully if Lee didn't have the baggage of his past and everyone else wasn't so afraid of confrontation.
Kenny of course challenged Lilly. Lee may have his back but he never really pushed for a leadership change. Everyone else except Larry was clearly uncomfortable with Lilly but generally avoided conflict. And I supposed most people would naturally rather avoid conflict when living in a group. This was a problem in a sense that for Lilly to step down, people needed to challenge her together.
When you think of it, what were Lilly's credentials to be leader? IMHO, her time in the Air Force is a weak claim. As anyone with military experience can tell you, the majority of servicemen and women have limited combat training and experience. Lilly is basically a pogue with a desk job (she clearly states she did "mechanical admin stuff" in ep 1). Besides whatever limited combat training she might have got a long time ago in Basic, her skill set isn't all that different from a civilian desk jockey. In other words, she isn't all that special from the other group members. Heck, I am willing to bet Carley has more firearms experience than Lilly.
While she may have gained useful management skills in the the Air Force, just having "military experience" doesn't automatically make one a qualified leader in a dangerous world. Officers and NCOs in combat trades have specific training courses, team culture, and experiences that prepare them for the sort of leadership Lilly was clearly unsuited for.
Lee as a history professor would know this. Carley would too, if saved in episode 1, because her character bio states she used to be a war correspondent , which meant she would've seen the difference between fobbits and actual combat soldiers.
So why do people tolerate Lilly as a leader? Because they are afraid of conflict. Whenever Lilly is challenged, both Lilly and Larry basically pop a few blood vessels, cause a massive scene, and stress everyone out. In a sense, Lilly's claim to leadership is maintained by her and Larry's ability to intimidate others into avoiding conflict.
If Lee wasn't afraid of his past, he could've spoke out a lot strongly against Lilly alongside Kenny and that might have perhaps rallied the others to ask Lilly to step down.
Finally, I am not saying Lilly couldn't be useful. But rather, she doesn't have strong credentials to be a leader, and her leadership seemed to be maintained by others timidity towards her and Larry's hotheadedness. I'm not saying one necessarily need to be a veteran to be a leader. Other qualities make a good leader, but Lilly simply lacks such qualities such as Lee's tactfulness (unless you play asshole Lee).
Lol, but asshole Lee is fun! "Do I get a vote?" "NO" LMAO.
Anyway, Lee and co. tried to get her to step down from leadership many times, but Lilly never wants to deal with it. You can't become leader if the leader won't step down from power, and she wouldn't even listen to it. "I just want a week of peace... of NOT hearing it!" The only way I could see to make her step down would be forcefully, with a gun to her forehead. That wouldn't end well, she has thought about killing Lee before, and that definitely means Kenny, and obviously she wanted Carley dead too. So... I don't see a way to remove her from her dictatorship that wouldn't end with a bullet through her skull, and the group wouldn't do that.
The only other person that really seemed to want the job was Kenny, and we saw how following his plan went: the remainder of the group with the exception of Clementine end up dead, with Omid, Christa and Kenny himself potentially surviving.
And I kinda feel the need to say that I pretty much predicted that happening way back before Episode 3 was released... I could probably track down the posts. Right down to figuring that there probably wouldn't be any useable boats at the dock, to the group running into more walkers as they neared the coast than they had anywhere else, so it's not like these were unforseeable consequences.
Anywho... Realistically, it'd be a death sentence to just leave either one without supplies. Yeah, the odds of Lilly's survival are probably better than Ben's, but in the same way that somebody's more likely to get struck by lightning than winning the lottery. The chances are pretty damn remote in either case.
Things like dehydration have zero fucks to give about how badass you think you are.
That said, I still left her. With Ben being the only potential "victim"? Much harder call (for me anyway). Had I the option, I would've left him behind then and there.
The fact that she stole the RV even if you sided with her 100% shows she never gave a damn about Lee or Clementine. The bandit attack, she took a chance with that, luckily those bandits were stupid, they could've killed the whole group after that one shot. Besides, it was her stubbornness the bandits attacked in the first place by keeping the whole group at the motel even when she knows bandits are in the area. If the group wanted her dead after what she did to Carley, they would've killed her and she knew that, this is the group that had no intention of killing the St Johns, there reaction to Lee to kicking Andy St John into the electric fence says it all.
If she wasn't tied up, she would've tried something else, taking the RV shows that, if she had a gun, she would've killed Lee if he had tried to stop her but lucky for her, Lee was weak. Surely she should know why she had to be tied up yet she complains about it, what did she expect the group to do after she murdered a kind & useful member of the group? Rub her belly and tell her it's OK. Her taking the RV shows how selfish she is because she was leaving people who never did anything to her(excluding Kenny & possibly Lee) for dead.
She was not only a danger to Ben, if she can kill someone as innocent as Carley, she can kill anyone including Lee, heck, she even stated that she wanted to kill him when his back was turned and Kenny's not far behind, how much more proof do you need? the thought that she can snap when someone sticks up for themselves is enough to prove that. And forgiveness is a lot to ask and there was no forgiving that, besides, she herself believes she did nothing wrong, that just shows how sick & cold blooded she is. She was not cool with everybody else, she constantly snaps and yells, she even stated she has a list of people she trusts get smaller each day when she has no reason to distrust them.
Granted, Kenny wanted Ben dead but that's it. There's a difference between wanting someone who got your family killed dead and actually killing someone for no reason. She wanted Kenny dead but she didn't have the guts to kill anyone to their face, why do you think she sent him for a supply run even though he has a gun shot wound? but after her first victim, Kenny would most likely have been next.
She was a crack shot like Carley, she was a huge asset to the team. I hate that she had to run with the r/v, she was like Andrea+Michonne+Abraham = Lilly.
Well, i just hope i found her alive in upcoming episodes.