If Lilly would kill Clem would you still forgive her ?
I noticed that Lilly fans always forgive her for many things like :
1 Letting people die outside the pharmacy
2 Killing Carley/Doug
3 Stealing the RV
I don' want to start a flame war with Lilly fans i understand their reason for liking her but i don't like how they always forgive her , pity her and saying that she suffered more than Lee , Clementine and Kenny etc , and they always make both Kenny and Carley look like the bad guys .
With Kenny i understand that he did horrible things but in the end he atoned for his sins and Lilly fans criticize him for that too
With Carley Lilly fans hate her because Carley called her the B word , well she did that because Lilly was accusing her of being a traitor and she wasn't going to calm down .
So here's the scenario : Lilly and Clem are in season 2 and they meet , Lilly wants to kill her because she is a reminder of her crime and her father's death so when Clem turns her back she tries to shoot her but the new protagonist stops her .
If Lilly would do this would you fans and Lilly fans still forgive her and make Clementine look like the bad guy by saying " Well Clem reminds her too much of Carley/Doug and Larry so she has the right to kill her " or stop treating her like a victim and acknowledge her crime .
1 Letting people die outside the pharmacy
2 Killing Carley/Doug
3 Stealing the RV
I don' want to start a flame war with Lilly fans i understand their reason for liking her but i don't like how they always forgive her , pity her and saying that she suffered more than Lee , Clementine and Kenny etc , and they always make both Kenny and Carley look like the bad guys .
With Kenny i understand that he did horrible things but in the end he atoned for his sins and Lilly fans criticize him for that too
With Carley Lilly fans hate her because Carley called her the B word , well she did that because Lilly was accusing her of being a traitor and she wasn't going to calm down .
So here's the scenario : Lilly and Clem are in season 2 and they meet , Lilly wants to kill her because she is a reminder of her crime and her father's death so when Clem turns her back she tries to shoot her but the new protagonist stops her .
If Lilly would do this would you fans and Lilly fans still forgive her and make Clementine look like the bad guy by saying " Well Clem reminds her too much of Carley/Doug and Larry so she has the right to kill her " or stop treating her like a victim and acknowledge her crime .
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Comments
For example... if Lee turned around and straight up murdered Duck for no reason i would hate him(even though i dislike Duck).
Really, I didn't see them with anyone who would do that in their group this season.
If someone kills a person straight up like that then they have no business around me, also her dad who tried to kill you. So if she comes back i'm hitting the GTFO or kill her button.
Overall i did not agree with Lilly at all except in the meat locker, Kenny panicked and made a rushed decision which was stupid.
I agree to the first, though about Kenny:
It is very debatable, because if Larry had turned, the group would have been fucked, considering how little time it took travis/Mr.Parker to turn that was an actual threat to the group. Maybe it was a rushed decision, but helping Lilly was irresponsible in my opinion, I mean Clem was in the room, and if Larry had turned, well then...
I agree the decision is debatable. Kenny wasn't wrong when he said we should kill him... at first i agreed, but damn he isn't gonna turn in 30 seconds... if you help and perform CPR on Larry he starts breathing but Kenny smashes his face. Therefor i call a rushed decision on Kenny, but that's my opinion.
You're right, CarScar. I wouldn't forgive her that, nor would I forgive anyone who hurts their own children. I may be a big fan of Lilly but I'm not a fanatic (even though some people seem to think so).
Now if she or anyone else was to hurt other people's children for some reason... it gets a bit trickier. If it is out of pure spite and evilness, no I won't forgive that. If she was to kill another child to protect Clem for example... hm, it still depends on the situation, but I'm not gonna judge right away.
Took care of her?!? She abandoned Clem on the roadside.
Ben is basically a child. Lily was gonna shoot the shit outta him. Why not Clem. Clem might take one to many energy bars and get shot in the back of the head too. Lily is a lunatic.
....but only because I'd have also felt a massive emo disturbance in the force.....
If Lilly had a VERY good reason to kill Clem, then I can't blame her. Ben isn't a kid like Clem is. She didn't want to blow his head off because she didn't like the way he looked at her, it was because she was coming apart and she (correctly) thought he was the one stealing from the group. She handled it completely wrong and like a total bitch, but she doesn't kill people for the hell of it. Some of her reasons are EXTREMELY petty, like why she killed Carley, and I hate her for that, but she's not a child killer. Lilly isn't a lunatic, she's just a total bitch.
Yeah, she thought he was the traitor, what if she wasn't correct with the assumption? What if it was someone else? Then that stupid bitch had shot an innocent person, and that is why I can not forgive her, you can take precautions based on assumptions, but to kill/toss out someone, you need evidence, you need to know you're punishing the right one, not think.
She wasn't a lunatic, and even if Clem was the traitor she wouldn't just shoot her, she's no child-killer, but she's a bitch, yes that is right, she shot Carley, for taking a stand, and telling Lilly how shitty she did her job, no one else had the balls to do it, so Carley did, and Lilly couldn't take it, she shot an innocent, because she didn't like the way Carley talked to her.
She had evidence. Everybody else was with the group for the previous three months and evidently never stole anything. The theft was recent, ergo, evidence points to the most recent group member. Nevermind that Ben blurts out how he's sorry in the RV, he basically confessed even before we get to the train.
I wasn't the only one who suspected Ben beforehand. Others may have had different reasons for suspecting him, but the fact that his guilt was accurately predicted means there was evidence against him.
The idea you need to absolutely know for certain before doing something results in nobody getting punished for anything. It's a standard that even modern criminal justice can't meet with DNA tests (which have a mathematical possibility of being wrong, even if that possibility is infinitesimally small). There's always going to be a margin of error when trying to determine what happened during a past event, the question is how big a margin you're comfortable with.
Just because no one else did, doesn't mean he did, though to be honest I thought he was the one stealing supplies too, I mean it was kinda obvious, but there was no 100% assurance.
I didn't say they shouldn't do anything, but kill someone without the neccessary evidence isn't the right way, if you chose to take Lilly with you, they cuffed her, means they had what they needed to cuff someone, so they could have cuffed Ben. I'm sure after a day without food he would have confessed. Or is a murderer's life (Lilly) more worth than a traitor's (Ben) ?
Then again, maybe an apocalypse requires rougher methods, and drawing conclusions based on how little evidence you have...
Good point regarding the cuffing, I'm guessing she was incredibly stressed, worried and desperate then. It's understandable after having everything you've worked for taken by bandits who were just shooting at you because of one traitor
Nothing's ever going to give you a 100% assurance. As I said, the question is how big a margin of error you're willing to tolerate
Well, I left Lilly behind too.
And basically, yeah, it requires harsher methods. Due to both the impact of the crime and the lack of practical punishment options (particularly in a small group). In a survival situation, stealing someone's food or medicine could very well be a death sentence. You can't really imprison somebody, since that's just expending resources and manpower on a nonproductive person. Sentence them to hard labor? Much the same problem, you need to expend man-hours supervising that person to ensure they actually do it and don't repeat the crime. Even just booting them from the group has its issues (like the fact the exiled person can always come back).
Really, the only two options that aren't a substantial drain on the group is to just let them get away with it or killing them. Neither's particularly ideal.
Agreed. Poor Carley, she had zero chance to protect herself, it was almost literally a stab in the back.
Oh...you must mean Clem then. Well, she isn't defenseless anymore either. She has a pistol and knows how to use it!
Ah, finally something we both can agree to. :cool:
Looks like a little, defenseless girl, but in fact she's a kickass-crackshot-zombie-killer badass! Well at least she will be one day, if she keeps learning at that rate.
Pretty much. Given how much Ben screwed the pooch; I would've left him behind then and there. Kinda bugs me that even if you agree with Lilly about him, you're still forced to drag him along. Hell, even after he confesses all you can do is give him a stern talking to, despite the fact Doug/Carley died sticking up for the little shitbird.
The other stuff he did, such as the infamous "take hatchet keeping the blood-soaked doors closed" fuckup in Crawford, yeah, it was obviously detrimental to the group but it wasn't intentional. The same can't be said for the theft of the supplies.
Well, that was only because she shot Doug/Carley; had she just shot Ben... it would've been a much harder call. I agreed with Lilly that Ben was guilty and if we were going to leave him, might as well just shoot him - it'd be more humane if nothing else.
Also, I already want her dead... so... my opinion may be slightly biased >.> .... slightly >:D
If she had killed Clem for any reason other than Clem needing to be put down or something in that regard, she wouldn't last long! I'd personally hack the game just to make my own death scene of that (insert harsh swear here).
Let's imagine an apocalypse and a group struggling for survival. There are 2 dumb people.. for example let's name them Kenny and Ben. They are so dumb, that they risk people's lives on daily basis, and one of them even has the balls to stand up to people who can actually think!
Then after you've been struggling for months to keep some sort of order and peace, one of the dumb asses kills your father, because you see, he THOUGHT it was the right think to do.
Not a week later, you realize that maybe the other one of the dumb asses not only steals from your small and doomed group, but also jeopardizes everybody's lives by making DUMB deals with bandits. The result - you lose the only shelter you've known for the last 2-3 months, the place you call home and the place you felt most secure in.
Yeah, I would say her reaction was quite understandable.
The only thing I understand about Carley's death is that Lilly decided that she didn't like Carley anymore. So then she decided to murder her. Shoot at Kenny? Hell, I'd understand it because she killed your dad. His moustache would probably deflect the bullet anyway. Take a shot at any Lees who helped Kenny? Why not, the plot dictates he can't die for another few days. Then it isn't you being a megalomanical bitch who decides that killing is justified if someone insults you. With Kenny, and Lees who helped Kenny in the meat locker, it's just Lilly not being able to take her father's death anymore. That's an understandable reason. I'd have kept her if she shot at me or Kenny. Instead, she killed an innocent person, not even based on a hunch. It was because she didn't like Carley because Carley wasn't going to take Lilly's crap anymore. Nobody else was safe from that point on. Lilly just became too unhinged.
Agreed. It's really odd, she argues with Kenny pretty much on a daily basis, he is always the one who drops the salt lick on her dad's head, always going against her plans, etc. It would have been understandable if she killed(or at least tried to kill) the guy who screams in her face every day instead of a girl who has done nothing to her(though this is less applicable for Doug, she even gets angry with him).
Directly oppose all of my strategies for survival? Fine with that. Constantly try to usurp leadership from me? Alright by me. Kill my dad? No problem. Call me a bitch? *gasp* immediate death!
I suppose it could be a heat of the moment thing, where she decided to take it out on whoever she was currently upset with at the time, but that's not understandable.