He didn't win against Beast. They were in the middle of tearing each other to pieces when their wives stepped in and stopped the battle. We … moresimply don't know which one of them is stronger - it might very well be Bigby, but it will be tough fight for him, that much is certain.
Huff and Puff is not auto win, it's also unwieldy since it takes some time to perform and faster enemies can take advantage of that. Bigby practically never uses it in one on one fights, and if he's hungry for blood he's even less likely to do so since he will be giving even more to the wolf part of his nature.
The most important thing to note is that Bigby will be alone. Even if he could take every citizen of Fabletown 1v1 (and that's not given), he will not succed in fighting all of them. He will take a lot of lives that day, sure. But he can be hurt, he can tire, and eventually, almost for sure, he will fall.
lol wut. Just because you save someone's life doesn't mean you own them. And just because you have physical power doesn't mean you rule over everyone. Even if that were the case, it's NOT what Bigby wants at all.
I'm not pointing out specific people, hell, not even people in this forum. I've seen people in the comments and such thinking that certain l… moreets players who disagree with snow and were angry at her were being sexist. I wouldn't dare call anyone out directly, especially not on this forum...
Ranting aloud is all, that's nothing unusual, or at least not with those who I hang around. This is usually why I stay away from the Wolf side of the forums... my presence is never really appreciated here.
Fair enough, though I don't really see why you would bring the idea up in this thread if it wasn't a present issue.
Anyway, just wanted to clarify our intentions.
Bigby doesn't mess with people if they are not lying or doing anything wrong. The community just doesn't understand what the crooked man did and I only attacked/hit people that helped him in some way yet I'm still the fucking bad guy. The community wants to fear Bigby and they should for their own protection. Bigby is a good guy and he does his job. The farm animals Bigby tried to kill, Colin and the other pigs are actually rebels and they kill Colin for not stealing the office key.
You dont understand how important it is in their community. He's not even allowed to go to the farm because of his past. If it got to that point with the citizens of Fabletown, he would have nowhere to go.
Ranting aloud is all, that's nothing unusual, or at least not with those who I hang around. This is usually why I stay away from the Wolf side of the forums... my presence is never really appreciated here.
Early on yes, later on no. The worst Bigby does when someone lies to him or threaten him is throw punches or slam against the wall. Bigby adds charges when he's near Snow, mainly resisting arrest.
You're talking about fear in a different sense here. It's not really about characters having the courage to fight him or not, it's about characters feeling safe and secure with Bigby in their town.
I'm mainly talking about the way Bigby handles the Tweedles and the Crooked Man. You also have the smaller events throughout the game, such as how you choose to interrogate Johaan, Toad, and whomever you have under arrest back at the Business Office after Snow's supposed death.
And before you say it, it's not about whether you think you were justified in how you handled those situations or not. It's about how it looks to the rest of the community.
This is really what the game was all about. Do you continue to make progress as a person, or do you just prefer to be The Big Bad Wolf, leaving the community to fear you. I think we all know what side Snow is on.
And why shouldn't they? Whom did Bigby attack that wasn't a known criminal?
The worst is Beast's babyish whining. He cries that Bigby almost ripped his eyes out when he's the one that activated Beastmode and attacked Bigby.
Should Bigby have to spell out that Crane is a potential suspect and that telling him whose head was found on the front steps could impede Bigby's investigation? It's actually kind of amazing that Nerissa isn't dead because of that revelation to Crane that made its way back to the Crooked Man and his goons.
Well by that logic, maybe Snow shouldn't have even told Bigby. After all, it's not impossible that he could have been involved, just as Crane was. The point is, if she had treated everyone as a potential suspect, she would have had to solve the murder by herself. Obviously that isn't realistic though, which is why she informs both Bigby and Crane.
If Bigby tells Snow not to tell Crane, she should either trust that he has a good reason and listen to him, or she should ask him why she shouldn't tell Crane. She shouldn't just ignore his advice. Bigby specifically told her that Crane would complicate things -- he did. And that he didn't want Crane interfering -- he did. If Snow was unsatisfied, she could've asked for more specific concerns that Bigby might have.
Again though, Snow is not obligated to do anything Bigby asks of her. Since she found out about the murder in the first place, it's as much her business as anyone else's. She has a good reason to notify the acting leader of the town that there is a murderer on the loose.
Think about this: What if Bigby was the one who was working for the CM instead of Crane? Obviously if Snow then told no one about the murder other than Bigby, nothing would ever get done about it. Notifying two parties was actually a really good move by Snow.
She could've notified the mundy police as well, if she had reason to believe that Bigby could be hiding something.
That is definitely against Fabletown rules and regulations.
Even if you attack no one without immediate justification except the Crooked Man, Bigby is still accused of abusing mere "suspects." Beast still whines about almost having his eyes gouged out. They're mostly a bunch of babies. Bigby has been the sheriff of Fabletown for decades if not centuries. People know what to expect.
If you attack Georgie or Crane, who never presented a threat, no one says anything about that. Those are the only unjustified attacks that can really happen. And even Snow assaults Crane to make him shut up. Regardless, it's not the smaller genuinely unjustified stuff that's possible that even comes up at the trial.
No one has any reason to think that Bigby is just going to start flying off the handle whenever someone says something he doesn't like, and no reason to think that Bigby is going to abuse mere crime suspects. The game doesn't allow you to go crazy enough to actually give anyone in Fabletown reason to really fear him.
I'm mainly talking about the way Bigby handles the Tweedles and the Crooked Man. You also have the smaller events throughout the game, such … moreas how you choose to interrogate Johaan, Toad, and whomever you have under arrest back at the Business Office after Snow's supposed death.
And before you say it, it's not about whether you think you were justified in how you handled those situations or not. It's about how it looks to the rest of the community.
This is really what the game was all about. Do you continue to make progress as a person, or do you just prefer to be The Big Bad Wolf, leaving the community to fear you. I think we all know what side Snow is on.
Snow has to tell someone about the crime in order to get it investigated, unless she wants to investigate it herself. She's not an investigator. Bigby is. That's his job. If he tells her not to tell Crane, she shouldn't have, and she even admits as much when she's reminded.
I really don't care what Snow was or was not obligated to do. Only what was prudent for her to do. And what would have been prudent would be to generally trust Bigby, who knows how to investigate. Again, if she needed it spelled out for her, she could have asked for clarification about what sorts of complications Bigby was talking about.
Telling Crane absolutely was not prudent. That's very obviously true in hindsight and it's true in general. If she didn't understand the value of discretion, she shouldn't have even bothered covering Faith's head outside. And, if Bigby was the one who committed the murder, who the heck is going to be available to investigate it if no one saw the actual murder?
Should Bigby have to spell out that Crane is a potential suspect and that telling him whose head was found on the front steps could impede B… moreigby's investigation? It's actually kind of amazing that Nerissa isn't dead because of that revelation to Crane that made its way back to the Crooked Man and his goons.
Well by that logic, maybe Snow shouldn't have even told Bigby. After all, it's not impossible that he could have been involved, just as Crane was. The point is, if she had treated everyone as a potential suspect, she would have had to solve the murder by herself. Obviously that isn't realistic though, which is why she informs both Bigby and Crane.
If Bigby tells Snow not to tell Crane, she should either trust that he has a good reason and listen to him, or she should ask him why she shouldn't tell Crane. She shouldn't just ignore his advice. Bigby specifically told her that Crane would complicate things -- he did. And that he… [view original content]
If Snow doesn't have any argument that sparing Dum wouldn't have increased the danger, then she really doesn't have room to criticize Bigby.
Why do you think that she doesn't have any argument? You can't really fairly jump to that conclusion, considering it isn't really discussed in the game. As we have been through, there are definitely reasons for her to feel like killing Dum was unnecessary.
And since he's the one doing the fighting, she should understand the limits of her perceptions and trust him to be honest about his.
You don't need crazy good perception in order to tell that Bigby was completely mopping the floor with the Tweedles. Bigby had a clear cut choice whether to kill Dum or not, and Snow was standing right there to witness the decision.
As for addressing Dum's murder at the trial, I would've expected her not to say that it would be handled internally, I expect her to back me up or change the subject, not suggest potential disciplinary action.
So you want her to either lie or be shady about it. As we have discussed, that isn't the way Snow wants to do things. That was the way Crane handled things, and we all know how that worked out for him and the government.
Snow, Colin, and Bigby had a big argument in Bigby's apartment about Bigby's freedom to do what was necessary according to his judgment. Snow was not willing to acknowledge reality in the middle of an argument about it, so when she later fails to acknowledge reality, it really indicates a lack of awareness of it.
As far as the discussion about Bigby transforming, yes, she was being a tad unrealistic there. Nothing else she said was unrealistic. Thinking that killing Dum was going over the top was not an unrealistic viewpoint.
Bigby doesn't just get to do whatever he wants because he is the sheriff, nor does everyone have to take his perceptions as the correct ones. As Bigby's boss, Snow is totally within her boundaries to question his decision making.
Johann the Butcher was just as much or more of an accomplice as Auntie Greenleaf, and he certainly had no place on the so-called jury.
Forgot about him. Anyway, it doesn't matter. We're never given the reasoning behind it, so we can't speculate. I'm sure Snow wouldn't just have him there for zero reason.
I mean, believe it or not, we've developed some methods of criminal procedure in this country over the last few hundred years that seem to work pretty well and have genuine justification.
Great. Fabletown isn't America.
I've never seen a jury in the adjudication of any crime in the Fables comics. There's a public war tribunal, there's a political murder cover-up, there's a guy who can look at someone and see all of that person's bad deeds, there's straight up murder of traitors and enemy soldiers, and there are informal hearings and adjudications conducted with only government officials. So, convening a jury in advance of even apprehending a criminal suspect is completely at odds with any American criminal procedure, not represented in the comic book canon at all, and just seems silly.
They don't have a cut and dry way of doing things. In this particular situation, Snow wanted to be open with the public, for reasons we have already discussed.
Even if Bigby hadn't killed CM, it was still stupid to go ahead and convene a jury. Apprehending a suspect doesn't mean that the investigation is over and doesn't mean that all witnesses have been secured. Snow never should have convened any sort of jury or any hearing without consulting Bigby first about the status of his entire investigation and the evidence that he has secured.
Not sure why you keep trying to say how things should be done when there isn't any specific way to handle these situations in Fabletown. You've said it yourself, some known criminals don't even get a trial. When the leadership knows there is a known threat to Fabletown, they take care of it in however they see fit. Snow wanted to get rid of the CM, but she wanted a group of people there to see them handle it. You may not have liked the way she handled it, but it really ultimately does not matter.
I don't see how anyone could ever classify an unjustified intentional killing as anything but a crime.
Depending on the intentions of the killer, it doesn't need to be classified as murder. If Bigby honestly thought he was handling things in okay way, then obviously his intentions aren't murderous.
If Snow doesn't have any argument that sparing Dum wouldn't have increased the danger, then she really doesn't have room to criticize Bigby.… more And since he's the one doing the fighting, she should understand the limits of her perceptions and trust him to be honest about his.
As for addressing Dum's murder at the trial, I would've expected her not to say that it would be handled internally, I expect her to back me up or change the subject, not suggest potential disciplinary action.
Snow, Colin, and Bigby had a big argument in Bigby's apartment about Bigby's freedom to do what was necessary according to his judgment. Snow was not willing to acknowledge reality in the middle of an argument about it, so when she later fails to acknowledge reality, it really indicates a lack of awareness of it.
Johann the Butcher was just as much or more of an accomplice as Auntie Greenleaf, and he certainly had no place on the so-called jury. And, again, w… [view original content]
Snow has to tell someone about the crime in order to get it investigated
Yes... I said as much.
She's not an investigator. Bigby is. That's his job. If he tells her not to tell Crane, she shouldn't have, and she even admits as much when she's reminded.
You keeping saying she shouldn't have, but it really just boils down to you not wanting her to. She doesn't have to do what you ask.
I really don't care what Snow was or was not obligated to do. Only what was prudent for her to do. And what would have been prudent would be to generally trust Bigby, who knows how to investigate
It's illogical just to completely hang your hat on that. You can't argue that keeping Crane in the dark is prudent but then go ahead and trust one single individual with the information. Given that Snow had zero information on the subject, it was perfectly reasonable for her to inform both parties. Heck, it was probably her job to.
You're kind of just basing all of this on opinion instead of a logical way to go about things. Why should she logically trust Bigby but then turn around and not trust Crane? It does not make any sense. It makes far more sense to inform both parties.
Again, if she needed it spelled out for her, she could have asked for clarification about what sorts of complications Bigby was talking about.
Maybe she just doesn't care, because you know, she is capable of making her own decisions and deciding what is right and wrong. If she thought that the Deputy Mayor needed to know, then it ultimately does not matter that Bigby wants her to leave Crane out of it. And as I keep saying, its far safer and more prudent to inform two parties instead of only one.
Telling Crane absolutely was not prudent. That's very obviously true in hindsight and it's true in general.
How is it true in general?? She had no more reason to tell Crane than she had to tell Bigby.
If she didn't understand the value of discretion, she shouldn't have even bothered covering Faith's head outside.
There's a difference between covering up a decapitated head laying out on the doorstep and deciding to be deceitful with the acting Mayor of Fabletown.
. And, if Bigby was the one who committed the murder, who the heck is going to be available to investigate it if no one saw the actual murder?
Not sure what this has to do with anything. I'm sure they would do something in the event that he was actually the murderer.
Just to clarify, I'm not saying that Snow should not have told Bigby. She absolutely should have told him, just like she should have told Crane.
Snow has to tell someone about the crime in order to get it investigated, unless she wants to investigate it herself. She's not an investiga… moretor. Bigby is. That's his job. If he tells her not to tell Crane, she shouldn't have, and she even admits as much when she's reminded.
I really don't care what Snow was or was not obligated to do. Only what was prudent for her to do. And what would have been prudent would be to generally trust Bigby, who knows how to investigate. Again, if she needed it spelled out for her, she could have asked for clarification about what sorts of complications Bigby was talking about.
Telling Crane absolutely was not prudent. That's very obviously true in hindsight and it's true in general. If she didn't understand the value of discretion, she shouldn't have even bothered covering Faith's head outside. And, if Bigby was the one who committed the murder, who the heck is going to be available to investigate it if no one saw the actual murder?
Why do you think that she doesn't have any argument? You can't really fairly jump to that conclusion, considering it isn't really discussed in the game. As we have been through, there are definitely reasons for her to feel like killing Dum was unnecessary.
If she has an argument to make, she is welcome to make it. But she didn't.
You don't need crazy good perception in order to tell that Bigby was completely mopping the floor with the Tweedles. Bigby had a clear cut choice whether to kill Dum or not, and Snow was standing right there to witness the decision.
She didn't make that argument. The game didn't actually let you do what was prudent, which was kill Dum and throw him at Blind Mary, whom Bigby knew was armed. Snow didn't even really bother to argue that what Bigby did was unnecessary. She perhaps needs to express herself more clearly if she wants to get her way.
So you want her to either lie or be shady about it. As we have discussed, that isn't the way Snow wants to do things. That was the way Crane handled things, and we all know how that worked out for him and the government.
Not necessarily, but the point wasn't relevant at the time, regardless, and it wasn't the appropriate time to discuss it. And it has nothing to do with how Crane handled things. Perhaps only in the most vague sense.
Great. Fabletown isn't America.
They don't have a cut and dry way of doing things. In this particular situation, Snow wanted to be open with the public, for reasons we have already discussed.
It was more a criticism of the writing. They took nothing from American procedure nor from the comic book canon. It was a contrived occurrence that they couldn't bother to write two completely different ways depending on the occurrence.
Not sure why you keep trying to say how things should be done when there isn't any specific way to handle these situations in Fabletown. You've said it yourself, some known criminals don't even get a trial. When the leadership knows there is a known threat to Fabletown, they take care of it in however they see fit. Snow wanted to get rid of the CM, but she wanted a group of people there to see them handle it. You may not have liked the way she handled it, but it really ultimately does not matter.
That in no way makes what she did smart. It wasn't. She arranged a trial before a suspect was in custody, before witnesses were secured, before any evidence was gathered. That's just pure stupid. If she wanted a group of CM accomplices and victims on hand to view that shit show, that's just more stupidity on her part, which is really just an aspect of bad writing.
Let's not forget that whole "No evidence!" mess at the end of the trial and the look on everyone's (including Snow's) face. Gee, what other evidence could Bigby have gathered with some time before the trial? Oh, I know, let's interview those Pudding n' Pie girls that are no longer under a curse, let's round up some more Crooked Man accomplices that we can turn against him, and let's perhaps find our buddy Kay who can look at people and see all the evil deeds they have done.
There's not a specific way to handle these situations in Fabletown, but there are stupid ways to handle them, and Snow picked one of them.
Depending on the intentions of the killer, it doesn't need to be classified as murder. If Bigby honestly thought he was handling things in okay way, then obviously his intentions aren't murderous.
If Bigby knew that killing Dum wouldn't increase their imminent risk, then he has no excuse. If he had reason to believe that killing Dum would decrease their imminent risk, then there was little cause for anyone to complain to begin with, and it would be legally justified.
If Snow doesn't have any argument that sparing Dum wouldn't have increased the danger, then she really doesn't have room to criticize Bigby.… more
Why do you think that she doesn't have any argument? You can't really fairly jump to that conclusion, considering it isn't really discussed in the game. As we have been through, there are definitely reasons for her to feel like killing Dum was unnecessary.
And since he's the one doing the fighting, she should understand the limits of her perceptions and trust him to be honest about his.
You don't need crazy good perception in order to tell that Bigby was completely mopping the floor with the Tweedles. Bigby had a clear cut choice whether to kill Dum or not, and Snow was standing right there to witness the decision.
As for addressing Dum's murder at the trial, I would've expected her not to say that it would be handled internally, I expect her to back me up or change the subjec… [view original content]
You keeping saying she shouldn't have, but it really just boils down to you not wanting her to. She doesn't have to do what you ask.
You say that, yet you know what happened because Crane knew, and you know what greater risks resulted from Crane's knowledge.
Is that a foreseeable risk? Yes.
Is that an avoidable risk? Yes.
Is that a necessary risk? No.
I would concede that the foreseeable magnitude of the risk, without the benefit of hindsight, is debatable. If the risk is high, I'm right, and if the risk is negligible, you're right. If it's the first murder in Fabletown in decades, I think there's good reason to trust as few people as necessary, and that the risk that someone in power could interfere with the investigation is too great. So it's not just what I wanted her to do, it's what I believe was prudent and wise for her to do. And she ultimately agreed with that assessment after she had told him.
It's illogical just to completely hang your hat on that. You can't argue that keeping Crane in the dark is prudent but then go ahead and trust one single individual with the information. Given that Snow had zero information on the subject, it was perfectly reasonable for her to inform both parties. Heck, it was probably her job to.
And it's not her job to report crimes to Crane. And it's not Bigby's job to share information about ongoing investigations with the Mayor's office. That's just not how criminal investigations are run, unless there is a media firestorm to manage. And for good reason.
And, again, since Snow acknowledged that she shouldn't have told Crane, that seems a fair indication that she was not obligated to do so even ignoring the comics.
You're kind of just basing all of this on opinion instead of a logical way to go about things. Why should she logically trust Bigby but then turn around and not trust Crane? It does not make any sense. It makes far more sense to inform both parties.
Well, for one, Bigby is the one with the power to do something about it, and Crane isn't. That's a damn good reason to think that Bigby has a greater need to know, isn't it?
Snow personally has good reason to trust Bigby, and no reason I know of to particularly trust Crane. Bigby has already saved countless fables from death and imprisonment at the hands of the Adversary, including Snow and her sister. Despite working with Crane for almost a century, I've never seen anything in the comics that indicates she had any particular reason to trust him, and good reason to believe that he never had Fabletown's best interests at heart.
I mean, if you want to be logical about this, could you at least indicate one thing that Snow could have accomplished by telling Crane?
How is it true in general?? She had no more reason to tell Crane than she had to tell Bigby.
Perhaps you misspoke. I would of course agree that she had no more reason to tell Crane than to tell Bigby. She in fact had much less reason to tell Crane than to tell Bigby.
Not sure what this has to do with anything. I'm sure they would do something in the event that he was actually the murderer.
Just to clarify, I'm not saying that Snow should not have told Bigby. She absolutely should have told him, just like she should have told Crane.
Well, that is the point, isn't it? If she wants someone to investigate the crime, she has to tell Bigby. If she doesn't tell Bigby, there's no one left to investigate the crime. What possible harm could come from not telling Crane?
Snow has to tell someone about the crime in order to get it investigated
Yes... I said as much.
She's not an investigator. Big… moreby is. That's his job. If he tells her not to tell Crane, she shouldn't have, and she even admits as much when she's reminded.
You keeping saying she shouldn't have, but it really just boils down to you not wanting her to. She doesn't have to do what you ask.
I really don't care what Snow was or was not obligated to do. Only what was prudent for her to do. And what would have been prudent would be to generally trust Bigby, who knows how to investigate
It's illogical just to completely hang your hat on that. You can't argue that keeping Crane in the dark is prudent but then go ahead and trust one single individual with the information. Given that Snow had zero information on the subject, it was perfectly reasonable for her to inform both parties. Heck, it was probably her job to.
Y… [view original content]
I don't ''like'' her. I mean, she doesn't really care so much for Bigby. In Episode 5, if you bring the crooked man back death, and Bigby says that Georgie killed Faith and Lilly, she asks why he killed them and didn't bring them to them instead. Bigby can then say it was self-defence and it was. It looks like Snow couldn't think that the Crooked man and the others would'nt make it easy for him. He killed them, because if he hadn't killed them, they would've killed him or would she want Bigby to almost get killed? I didn't like her at that moment.
If she has an argument to make, she is welcome to make it. But she didn't.
Because she said they would talk about it later. She just wanted to focus on catching the CM at the time. Regardless, it's obvious that there is another side to the story, which we have talked about.
She didn't make that argument. The game didn't actually let you do what was prudent, which was kill Dum and throw him at Blind Mary, whom Bigby knew was armed. Snow didn't even really bother to argue that what Bigby did was unnecessary. She perhaps needs to express herself more clearly if she wants to get her way.
It doesn't matter if she made the argument or not, except to satisfy you as the player. Obviously she thought Bigby took things too far with Dum. Simple reasoning allows us to know why she would have a legitimate reason to feel that way.
Maybe if time allowed it they would have sat down and talked the issue through, but they never had time to do so, other than Snow telling Bigby that he took things too far.
Not necessarily, but the point wasn't relevant at the time, regardless, and it wasn't the appropriate time to discuss it. And it has nothing to do with how Crane handled things. Perhaps only in the most vague sense.
How do you want them to not discuss it and yet turn around and criticize Snow for not defending Bigby when it gets brought up..?
If the topic was irrelevant, then the right thing to do was to shelve the argument, which is what Snow tried to do.
It was more a criticism of the writing. They took nothing from American procedure nor from the comic book canon. It was a contrived occurrence that they couldn't bother to write two completely different ways depending on the occurrence.
Why should they take anything from America's procedure? They had no reason to do that. It was true to the comic in the sense that the leadership really just handles these situations however they see fit.
That in no way makes what she did smart. It wasn't. She arranged a trial before a suspect was in custody, before witnesses were secured, before any evidence was gathered. That's just pure stupid. If she wanted a group of CM accomplices and victims on hand to view that shit show, that's just more stupidity on her part, which is really just an aspect of bad writing.
Why are you being so stubborn about this? You have it set in your head that things need to be done a certain way, and that just isn't how it is in Fabletown. In the event that the CM gets brought back as a corpse, there is still a reason for having the jury there. The whole point of having those people there was for them to see the CM's fate. It ultimately does not matter if it ended up being a "shit show". She wants to be open with the people, and anyone involved. Its up to you to defend your own actions.
Let's not forget that whole "No evidence!" mess at the end of the trial and the look on everyone's (including Snow's) face. Gee, what other evidence could Bigby have gathered with some time before the trial? Oh, I know, let's interview those Pudding n' Pie girls that are no longer under a curse, let's round up some more Crooked Man accomplices that we can turn against him, and let's perhaps find our buddy Kay who can look at people and see all the evil deeds they have done.
There wasn't any evidence as far as the murders go, but they still had all they needed in order to throw the guy down the well, based on all of the other charges. Honestly, the point of the trial was just making sure that the involved parties were satisfied with the result, and that ended up being the case (in the event of the actual trial obviously).
There's not a specific way to handle these situations in Fabletown, but there are stupid ways to handle them, and Snow picked one of them.
I guess you can feel that way if you want to, but there is plenty of reason to think otherwise (described above).
If Bigby knew that killing Dum wouldn't increase their imminent risk, then he has no excuse.
That's why I said "depending on the intentions of the killer". Obviously if Bigby had other intentions, then there would be reason to label him as a murderer.
If he had reason to believe that killing Dum would decrease their imminent risk, then there was little cause for anyone to complain to begin with
How do you figure..? His intentions were in the bounds of the law, but his actions could be interpreted differently by certain individuals. It's all about Fabletown's image. That's why Snow says that while she doesn't see Bigby as a murder, there wouldn't be much she could do if the citizens of Fabletown saw his actions differently and called for his resignation.
If Snow isn't satisfied with the results of his work, and the people aren't satisfied with the results of his work, then yes, there is reason to dismiss him regardless if he broke the law or not. You don't have to break the law in order for someone to be unsatisfied with your work results.
Why do you think that she doesn't have any argument? You can't really fairly jump to that conclusion, considering it isn't really discussed … morein the game. As we have been through, there are definitely reasons for her to feel like killing Dum was unnecessary.
If she has an argument to make, she is welcome to make it. But she didn't.
You don't need crazy good perception in order to tell that Bigby was completely mopping the floor with the Tweedles. Bigby had a clear cut choice whether to kill Dum or not, and Snow was standing right there to witness the decision.
She didn't make that argument. The game didn't actually let you do what was prudent, which was kill Dum and throw him at Blind Mary, whom Bigby knew was armed. Snow didn't even really bother to argue that what Bigby did was unnecessary. She perhaps needs to express herself more clearly if she wants to get her way.
So you want her to either lie or be shady about… [view original content]
Because she said they would talk about it later. She just wanted to focus on catching the CM at the time. Regardless, it's obvious that there is another side to the story, which we have talked about.
How hard is it for her to even say the words "It wasn't necessary" in any of the discussions they had about this? She never did. If she really believed that, she should say it.
It doesn't matter if she made the argument or not, except to satisfy you as the player. Obviously she thought Bigby took things too far with Dum. Simple reasoning allows us to know why she would have a legitimate reason to feel that way.
Maybe if time allowed it they would have sat down and talked the issue through, but they never had time to do so, other than Snow telling Bigby that he took things too far.
No, simple reasoning doesn't allow us to know why she would have a legitimate reason to feel that way. She didn't get to play through the game twice and see two difference scenarios play out identically. You did.
If the topic was irrelevant, then the right thing to do was to shelve the argument, which is what Snow tried to do.
Poorly.
Why should they take anything from America's procedure? They had no reason to do that. It was true to the comic in the sense that the leadership really just handles these situations however they see fit.
They should find a smart way to do it. Either do it according to the comic or use some sensible procedures from American procedure. It was poor writing.
Why are you being so stubborn about this? You have it set in your head that things need to be done a certain way, and that just isn't how it is in Fabletown. In the event that the CM gets brought back as a corpse, there is still a reason for having the jury there. The whole point of having those people there was for them to see the CM's fate. It ultimately does not matter if it ended up being a "shit show". She wants to be open with the people, and anyone involved. Its up to you to defend your own actions.
My God, I know how things are in Fabletown. I've read the comics. This scene had absolutely nothing to do with the way things are run in Fabletown. My goodness, can you not even understand that there was more work that needed to be done before having an appropriate trial, even if the Crooked Man was in custody? How freaking hard is that to understand? How hard is it to understand that witnesses are helpful in a trial? How hard is it to understand that it's helpful to complete an investigation before conducting a trial? I mean, do I just have to keep repeating myself on that point before you acknowledge it or refute it? If you think I'm just being stubborn, at least come up with a sensible argument why I'm wrong that waiting would be smarter.
It was stupid. It wasn't the way things ever work in the comics. It was a lot of talk about "due process" without any of the hallmarks of sensible American jurisprudence. It was a shit show with no evidence and was poor writing.
If she has an argument to make, she is welcome to make it. But she didn't.
Because she said they would talk about it later. She just… more wanted to focus on catching the CM at the time. Regardless, it's obvious that there is another side to the story, which we have talked about.
She didn't make that argument. The game didn't actually let you do what was prudent, which was kill Dum and throw him at Blind Mary, whom Bigby knew was armed. Snow didn't even really bother to argue that what Bigby did was unnecessary. She perhaps needs to express herself more clearly if she wants to get her way.
It doesn't matter if she made the argument or not, except to satisfy you as the player. Obviously she thought Bigby took things too far with Dum. Simple reasoning allows us to know why she would have a legitimate reason to feel that way.
Maybe if time allowed it they would have sat down and talked the issue through, but they never had tim… [view original content]
You say that, yet you know what happened because Crane knew, and you know what greater risks resulted from Crane's knowledge.
Is that a foreseeable risk? Yes. Is that an avoidable risk? Yes. Is that a necessary risk? No.
It wasn't the smartest move but it was a logical one, it made Bigby's words have solid grounds and added Crane to Bigby's suspect list, which is justifiable.
And it's not her job to report crimes to Crane. And it's not Bigby's job to share information about ongoing investigations with the Mayor's office. That's just not how criminal investigations are run, unless there is a media firestorm to manage. And for good reason.
Actually she knew of the crime first. Bigby could discourage it, but Crane would need to find out since it would and did arouse Bigby's suspicions.
Well, for one, Bigby is the one with the power to do something about it, and Crane isn't. That's a damn good reason to think that Bigby has a greater need to know, isn't it?
She told Bigby first. The only judicial party in Fabletown is Crane, speeding up the judicial process could be what was on Snow's mind.
You keeping saying she shouldn't have, but it really just boils down to you not wanting her to. She doesn't have to do what you ask.
… more You say that, yet you know what happened because Crane knew, and you know what greater risks resulted from Crane's knowledge.
Is that a foreseeable risk? Yes.
Is that an avoidable risk? Yes.
Is that a necessary risk? No.
I would concede that the foreseeable magnitude of the risk, without the benefit of hindsight, is debatable. If the risk is high, I'm right, and if the risk is negligible, you're right. If it's the first murder in Fabletown in decades, I think there's good reason to trust as few people as necessary, and that the risk that someone in power could interfere with the investigation is too great. So it's not just what I wanted her to do, it's what I believe was prudent and wise for her to do. And she ultimately agreed with that assessment after she had told him.
It's illogical jus… [view original content]
You say that, yet you know what happened because Crane knew, and you know what greater risks resulted from Crane's knowledge.
Is that a foreseeable risk? Yes. Is that an avoidable risk? Yes. Is that a necessary risk? No.
Obviously bad things came of it (nothing big though), but that isn't the point. Neither Snow or Bigby could have guessed that Crane worked for the CM, just like Snow would have no way of knowing if Bigby worked for the CM. There was risk in telling anyone at all, but she obviously had to do it. And she couldn't just tell one person. That in itself is taking a risk, because the one person you're telling may or may not be involved in the crime. The only sensible thing you can do is notify the leadership and go from there.
I would concede that the foreseeable magnitude of the risk, without the benefit of hindsight, is debatable. If the risk is high, I'm right, and if the risk is negligible, you're right. If it's the first murder in Fabletown in decades, I think there's good reason to trust as few people as necessary
And they do trust as few people as necessary. The only two people Snow notifies are Bigby and Crane. You can't honestly fault her for one of those two people secretly working for the CM. Especially when said person is in charge of all town operations and is the acting mayor of the town.
And it's not her job to report crimes to Crane.
That's just silly. So only the sheriff is allowed to present crimes and problems to the acting mayor?
That's just not how criminal investigations are run, unless there is a media firestorm to manage. And for good reason.
Again, you keep stating that you know how things are run when you really don't. This is Fabletown, not America. Fabletown does not have to follow American law procedure. How you understand America to do things is completely irrelevant to how Fabletown does things.
And, again, since Snow acknowledged that she shouldn't have told Crane, that seems a fair indication that she was not obligated to do so even ignoring the comics.
She only said that because Crane was angry. That was the only reason. She only wished she had had more information to give him before telling him.
Well, for one, Bigby is the one with the power to do something about it, and Crane isn't. That's a damn good reason to think that Bigby has a greater need to know, isn't it?
It doesn't matter who has a greater reason to know or not, we're simply talking about who to trust. Logically if you label Crane as a suspect simply because you don't know that he didn't commit the crime, you should be giving Bigby the same treatment.
Snow personally has good reason to trust Bigby, and no reason I know of to particularly trust Crane
If you don't really know if she had reason to trust Crane or not, then you can't blame her for trusting the man with the information considering that you're admitting that you don't know anything about her reasons for trusting him. Given that, the purpose of the comparison in this statement doesn't really hold any ground.
I mean, if you want to be logical about this, could you at least indicate one thing that Snow could have accomplished by telling Crane?
I already have. Having two parties aware of the situation lessens the risk of you getting strung along. Obviously if Bigby was the murderer and Snow had only told him about what she had found, the investigation would never get solved (unless Bigby framed someone else).
Other than that, it isn't crazy to think that informing the leadership could be a good thing to do. We don't know the complete details of what his job entails, but as the deputy mayor he would want to do something about the problem, such as maybe warning the public. He ultimately decides discretion is the best way to go about it, but that's besides the point.
And honestly, the more I think about it, notifying Crane (or anyone for that matter) was not even a potential risk in the minds of either Snow or Bigby. As far as they knew, the killer was being entirely open with their own actions. As far as they knew, the killer had dropped his victim's head right on their doorstep. Even Bigby admits that he thinks the killer is acting openly. Therefore notifying Crane was not a risk in either of their minds based on the perceived truths that they had on hand.
Deciding to tell Snow not to notify Crane is entirely up to the player anyway, and has nothing to do with Crane being a potential suspect or accomplice.
Perhaps you misspoke. I would of course agree that she had no more reason to tell Crane than to tell Bigby. She in fact had much less reason to tell Crane than to tell Bigby.
Nah, I didn't misspeak. I could have worded that better, though. I was again solely talking about the reasoning behind trusting one or the other.
Well, that is the point, isn't it? If she wants someone to investigate the crime, she has to tell Bigby. If she doesn't tell Bigby, there's no one left to investigate the crime
Yes.. which is why she needed to tell Bigby regardless of the very small risk that he himself could in fact be a suspect. She then implemented a sort of fail-safe to the situation by notifying another member the leadership.
You keeping saying she shouldn't have, but it really just boils down to you not wanting her to. She doesn't have to do what you ask.
… more You say that, yet you know what happened because Crane knew, and you know what greater risks resulted from Crane's knowledge.
Is that a foreseeable risk? Yes.
Is that an avoidable risk? Yes.
Is that a necessary risk? No.
I would concede that the foreseeable magnitude of the risk, without the benefit of hindsight, is debatable. If the risk is high, I'm right, and if the risk is negligible, you're right. If it's the first murder in Fabletown in decades, I think there's good reason to trust as few people as necessary, and that the risk that someone in power could interfere with the investigation is too great. So it's not just what I wanted her to do, it's what I believe was prudent and wise for her to do. And she ultimately agreed with that assessment after she had told him.
It's illogical jus… [view original content]
Actually she knew of the crime first. Bigby could discourage it, but Crane would need to find out since it would and did arouse Bigby's suspicions.
Crane didn't have to find out like that. Crane didn't have to find out she was murdered. His reaction could have been gauged when simply asked if he knew her. Bigby could have gotten the information lots of different ways.
She told Bigby first. The only judicial party in Fabletown is Crane, speeding up the judicial process could be what was on Snow's mind.
That's not really going to speed things up when an investigation has barely begun. And, King Cole is the judicial party.
You say that, yet you know what happened because Crane knew, and you know what greater risks resulted from Crane's knowledge.
Is tha… moret a foreseeable risk? Yes. Is that an avoidable risk? Yes. Is that a necessary risk? No.
It wasn't the smartest move but it was a logical one, it made Bigby's words have solid grounds and added Crane to Bigby's suspect list, which is justifiable.
And it's not her job to report crimes to Crane. And it's not Bigby's job to share information about ongoing investigations with the Mayor's office. That's just not how criminal investigations are run, unless there is a media firestorm to manage. And for good reason.
Actually she knew of the crime first. Bigby could discourage it, but Crane would need to find out since it would and did arouse Bigby's suspicions.
Well, for one, Bigby is the one with the power to do something about it, and Crane isn't. That's a damn good reason to think that B… [view original content]
Obviously bad things came of it (nothing big though), but that isn't the point. Neither Snow or Bigby could have guessed that Crane worked for the CM, just like Snow would have no way of knowing if Bigby worked for the CM. There was risk in telling anyone at all, but she obviously had to do it. And she couldn't just tell one person. That in itself is taking a risk, because the one person you're telling may or may not be involved in the crime. The only sensible thing you can do is notify the leadership and go from there.
Telling Bigby means that 2 people know. Why is a 3rd necessary? To say that telling Crane was the only sensible thing to do is absurd. She said herself, in hindsight, that she shouldn't have told him.
And nothing bad happened? You mean, Dee wasn't released because Crane was involved? And that didn't increase the Crooked Man's number of henchmen throughout the rest of the game, and was a particular advantage in 2 incidents in episode 3?
That's just silly. So only the sheriff is allowed to present crimes and problems to the acting mayor?
Your question makes no sense. Just because Snow is allowed to report things to Crane, that doesn't make it her obligation. She simply is not required to report crimes to Crane. Nor is Bigby.
It doesn't matter who has a greater reason to know or not, we're simply talking about who to trust. Logically if you label Crane as a suspect simply because you don't know that he didn't commit the crime, you should be giving Bigby the same treatment.
No, I'm not suggesting that Crane should be labeled a suspect simply because she doesn't know. She just has more reason to be cautious and less reason to trust Crane, and it's not Crane's job to investigate crimes. So he simply doesn't need to know what happened. I don't know if Crane had given her any reason to trust him. I do know that Bigby has. I also know that Bigby never gave her a reason not to. Crane had given her reason to know that he didn't have Fabletown's interests at heart.
Again, you keep stating that you know how things are run when you really don't. This is Fabletown, not America. Fabletown does not have to follow American law procedure. How you understand America to do things is completely irrelevant to how Fabletown does things.
How many times do I have to make it clear that I've read all of the comics? That means I know how they handle things in Fabletown. How hard is it for you to understand the point I've been making about the poor writing on this aspect of the game? Your whole "this is how they run things in Fabletown" argument is simply ridiculous, because it has no basis in any canon other than how things are stupidly handled in this game.
The entire rant about due process was a tribute to our American ideals. But the execution was a ridiculous mockery of them. That has little to do with my ultimate point, anyway. The stupidity of her actions in prematurely convening the jury and the writers fabricating that scene is the primary sin.
You say that, yet you know what happened because Crane knew, and you know what greater risks resulted from Crane's knowledge.
Is tha… moret a foreseeable risk? Yes. Is that an avoidable risk? Yes. Is that a necessary risk? No.
Obviously bad things came of it (nothing big though), but that isn't the point. Neither Snow or Bigby could have guessed that Crane worked for the CM, just like Snow would have no way of knowing if Bigby worked for the CM. There was risk in telling anyone at all, but she obviously had to do it. And she couldn't just tell one person. That in itself is taking a risk, because the one person you're telling may or may not be involved in the crime. The only sensible thing you can do is notify the leadership and go from there.
I would concede that the foreseeable magnitude of the risk, without the benefit of hindsight, is debatable. If the risk is high, I'm right, and if the risk is negligible, you're right. If it's… [view original content]
How hard is it for her to even say the words "It wasn't necessary" in any of the discussions they had about this? She never did. If she really believed that, she should say it.
First off, does she really need to say it? With her not being happy with your actions, she obviously thought there was an alternative that you should have taken.
That being said, she openly says that you should have shown a little more restraint, and she says there are degrees of doing things (implying that yours were too high). She comes right out and says "Please explain to Colin why tearing Dum's throat out was necessary". That was her essentially telling you your actions were unnecessary. After her saying that, if you admit that you went too far in your actions, she says; "That's a good first step".
No, simple reasoning doesn't allow us to know why she would have a legitimate reason to feel that way. She didn't get to play through the game twice and see two difference scenarios play out identically. You did.
Playing through the game multiple times and seeing different situations unfold has nothing to do with it. Even after seeing the scene unfold one time, you can see clear as day that Bigby had a massive advantage over the Tweedles, and they were entirely at his mercy. So yes, she does have a legitimate reason to feel like killing Dum was unnecessary.
Poorly.
Not really. She couldn't completely avoid giving an answer of some sort considering the intention of the CM bringing it up was to turn the crowd against her and Bigby. By addressing the accusation and then saying it was going to be dealt with, she effectively tried to shelve the debate and still address it at the same time. Simply ignoring the accusation would have been a bad idea.
They should find a smart way to do it. Either do it according to the comic or use some sensible procedures from American procedure. It was poor writing.
How can you say it isn't true to the comic when in the comic they don't have any set way of doing things? I don't believe Snow even wanted to have a full blown legitimate trial. If she did, she wouldn't have rushed to get things done and only invited a few concerned members of the public. She simply wanted the involved parties to be satisfied with the result.
My God, I know how things are in Fabletown. I've read the comics. This scene had absolutely nothing to do with the way things are run in Fabletown.
Then why are you acting like there is a set way of doing things, or that your perceptions of how something should be done is how it should be done in Fabletown?
My goodness, can you not even understand that there was more work that needed to be done before having an appropriate trial, even if the Crooked Man was in custody? How freaking hard is that to understand? How hard is it to understand that witnesses are helpful in a trial? How hard is it to understand that it's helpful to complete an investigation before conducting a trial?
You're being comically obtuse and narrow-minded here. I don't know how many times I need to explain this, but the purpose of the trial was really only to get the interested parties (jury) satisfied with the result. It obviously was not a full blown completely legitimate trial, and often times it isn't in the Fables universe. Snow and Bigby already had everything they needed to toss the CM down the witching well just based on the other charges. Sure, they never found evidence that the CM was for sure involved in the murders, but there was literally no evidence to prove otherwise. All they could do is go off of Georgie's confession. Even when Nerissa shows up and gives them her falsified evidence, it really isn't actually evidence at all as she could have been lying... and it turns out she was. It's not like Snow set up this trial empty handed. Honestly if you actually watch the scene unfold, she is more interested in winning over the loyalty of the interested parties at the trial than she is of providing indisputable proof that the CM indeed did order the murders of Faith and Lilly (hint, there is no indisputable proof to be had). At the end of the day even if she wasn't able to win over the crowd about the murder accusations, she could still have the CM tossed down the well because of his indisputable involvement in the other charges.
I mean, do I just have to keep repeating myself on that point before you acknowledge it or refute it? If you think I'm just being stubborn, at least come up with a sensible argument why I'm wrong that waiting would be smarter
I've been explaining this to you over, and over, and over again. I haven't been ignoring your argument, and you know I haven't. You simply have it stuck in your head that things need to be done your way, or that the government should be following some sort of unwritten rules.
I'm definitely not saying that there wouldn't be merit to waiting and searching for more evidence, but it ultimately was not needed to accomplish what Snow wanted to accomplish.
It was stupid. It wasn't the way things ever work in the comics. It was a lot of talk about "due process" without any of the hallmarks of sensible American jurisprudence. It was a shit show with no evidence and was poor writing.
Again, I don't know why you keep saying it differs from the comics when in the comics they basically just do whatever they want. They don't have any set way of handling these issues.
It was a shit show with no evidence and was poor writing.
And you're only saying that because it didn't work out like you wanted it to. You ignore the fact that there many different ways to accomplish a goal. The way Snow handled the trial worked to accomplish her goals.
Because she said they would talk about it later. She just wanted to focus on catching the CM at the time. Regardless, it's obvious that ther… moree is another side to the story, which we have talked about.
How hard is it for her to even say the words "It wasn't necessary" in any of the discussions they had about this? She never did. If she really believed that, she should say it.
It doesn't matter if she made the argument or not, except to satisfy you as the player. Obviously she thought Bigby took things too far with Dum. Simple reasoning allows us to know why she would have a legitimate reason to feel that way.
Maybe if time allowed it they would have sat down and talked the issue through, but they never had time to do so, other than Snow telling Bigby that he took things too far.
No, simple reasoning doesn't allow us to know why she would have a legitimate reason to feel that way. She didn't get to play through the game … [view original content]
Actually she knew of the crime first. Bigby could discourage it, but Crane would need to find out since it would and did arouse Bigby's susp… moreicions.
Crane didn't have to find out like that. Crane didn't have to find out she was murdered. His reaction could have been gauged when simply asked if he knew her. Bigby could have gotten the information lots of different ways.
She told Bigby first. The only judicial party in Fabletown is Crane, speeding up the judicial process could be what was on Snow's mind.
That's not really going to speed things up when an investigation has barely begun. And, King Cole is the judicial party.
How can you say it isn't true to the comic when in the comic they don't have any set way of doing things? I don't believe Snow even wanted to have a full blown legitimate trial. If she did, she wouldn't have rushed to get things done and only invited a few concerned members of the public. She simply wanted the involved parties to be satisfied with the result.
Because they don't do things stupidly in the comics.
Crane ignores a Fable who is a serial murderer because he doesn't think it can be traced back to Fabletown. He's a callous bastard.
King Cole shuts down an investigation of a murder that financially benefited Fabletown. That's pragmatic.
Prince Charming through someone down the Witching Well on the word of one guy who can look at people and see their evil deeds. He wants to keep information from the public.
Bigby and Cindarella murder a traitor without telling anyone back home. They don't want to expose Cindy's secret identity.
Bigby murders countless agents of the Adversary.
Prince Charming allows one of his own agents to be sentenced in order to preserve the secrecy of a mission.
The only thing done remotely above board was a war crimes tribunal to punish the members of an insurrection.
And I never once heard Snow White crusade for due process.And no one ever questioned Bigby's ability to do his job properly or misplaced faith in him to do so.
To argue that any method is reasonable for the writers to use because there's no set method for the comics is absurd.
Because the ultimate rule is that they will do whatever is best for Fabletown, based on the judgment of the administration. And the first thing they wouldn't do is something stupid, like having a public trial that they are at risk of losing without a lying prostitute because Snow White stupidly didn't allow Bigby to finish his investigation.
Do you even really know what Snow wanted to accomplish? And do you not think that a more complete investigation would have accomplished it better? Do you not think that there would have been less risk of that "No evidence!" embarrassment if Snow White hadn't jumped the gun?
Would it have been an obviously better way of handling things or not? And if so, is it not stupid to do things in ways that increase the risks to Fabletown's credibility?
How hard is it for her to even say the words "It wasn't necessary" in any of the discussions they had about this? She never did. If she real… morely believed that, she should say it.
First off, does she really need to say it? With her not being happy with your actions, she obviously thought there was an alternative that you should have taken.
That being said, she openly says that you should have shown a little more restraint, and she says there are degrees of doing things (implying that yours were too high). She comes right out and says "Please explain to Colin why tearing Dum's throat out was necessary". That was her essentially telling you your actions were unnecessary. After her saying that, if you admit that you went too far in your actions, she says; "That's a good first step".
No, simple reasoning doesn't allow us to know why she would have a legitimate reason to feel that way. She didn't get to play through the game twice an… [view original content]
Sure, but the Business Office doesn't do his paperwork for him. He finds his own ways to lessen his paperwork.
Like murdering traitors without notifying anyone back home.
Sure, but the Business Office doesn't do his paperwork for him. He finds his own ways to lessen his paperwork.
Like murdering traitors without notifying anyone back home.
Telling Bigby means that 2 people know. Why is a 3rd necessary? To say that telling Crane was the only sensible thing to do is absurd. She said herself, in hindsight, that she shouldn't have told him.
Because if only Bigby knows, he is the only one she is going to be working with to solve the crime (on the scene, and behind the scenes), if she is going to be working with him at all. Nothing would ever get solved, because obviously Bigby wouldn't prove himself to be the murderer. You could argue that Bigby would probably get away with it anyway, but at least you have a chance if you have other individuals involved with the case. You have no chance if Bigby is involved in the murder and he is also the only other person besides Snow who knows a murder even took place.
Your question makes no sense. Just because Snow is allowed to report things to Crane, that doesn't make it her obligation. She simply is not required to report crimes to Crane. Nor is Bigby.
Okay, but you were implying that she shouldn't have done it just basically because it isn't in her job description.
I mean.. why else would you even say what you did?
No, I'm not suggesting that Crane should be labeled a suspect simply because she doesn't know. She just has more reason to be cautious and less reason to trust Crane
Compared to who? Bigby? That isn't even based on anything. You previously said it yourself that you don't know of any reason why she should trust him or not. Given that you don't know, it doesn't make sense to even try and make a comparison to the known reasons she has to trust Bigby. For all we know, she could have decent reasons to trust Crane. It really doesn't even matter though. Even if Bigby is more trustworthy, that doesn't mean one should get notified and the other should not.
It's not Crane's job to investigate crimes. So he simply doesn't need to know what happened.
That's like saying Obama doesn't need to know about a terrorist attack simply because he isn't going to be on the scene solving the problem.
There is more to the incident than solving the murder itself. Perhaps Crane would want to make a statement or warn the public. Perhaps he has his own ideas on who the murderer could be. Obviously Crane doesn't decide to do any of this, but that doesn't mean he shouldn't be informed. You could even argue that informing Crane is for his own safety, as someone is clearly screwing with the Fabletown government.
Crane had given her reason to know that he didn't have Fabletown's interests at heart.
What reasons would those be? He doesn't give her any reason to believe that, until they find out the truth about him in Episode Three.
I also love how you have conveniently ignored the point I made about both Bigby and Snow agreeing to the fact that the murderer was operating out in the open. There was a head placed on their freaking doorstep, and both of them assumed the murderer did it. There really isn't any reason for her not to tell Crane considering how both Bigby and herself think the murderer placed the head on their doorstep.
How many times do I have to make it clear that I've read all of the comics? That means I know how they handle things in Fabletown.
That's like saying: "Come on dude I had math class in school, so obviously I know 4+4 = 25".
I haven't questioned whether you have read the comics or not. The things you have been saying have been faulty though. You have made comparisons to American government more than once. You have stated that the game handles trials differently than is done in the comics, when in the comics there isn't even a set way of handling those issues anyway.
Your whole "this is how they run things in Fabletown" argument is simply ridiculous, because it has no basis in any canon other than how things are stupidly handled in this game.
Please don't put words in my mouth. I have never specifically described how things are run in Fabletown, other than pointing out that they don't have a cut and dry set of rules regarding how they handle trials. So how can my argument be ridiculous when I haven't really even made one?
The entire rant about due process was a tribute to our American ideals. But the execution was a ridiculous mockery of them. That has little to do with my ultimate point, anyway. The stupidity of her actions in prematurely convening the jury and the writers fabricating that scene is the primary sin.
I'm not even going to address this as I already did so in the other conversation that is going on. We don't need to have the same discussion going on in two different places.
Obviously bad things came of it (nothing big though), but that isn't the point. Neither Snow or Bigby could have guessed that Crane worked f… moreor the CM, just like Snow would have no way of knowing if Bigby worked for the CM. There was risk in telling anyone at all, but she obviously had to do it. And she couldn't just tell one person. That in itself is taking a risk, because the one person you're telling may or may not be involved in the crime. The only sensible thing you can do is notify the leadership and go from there.
Telling Bigby means that 2 people know. Why is a 3rd necessary? To say that telling Crane was the only sensible thing to do is absurd. She said herself, in hindsight, that she shouldn't have told him.
And nothing bad happened? You mean, Dee wasn't released because Crane was involved? And that didn't increase the Crooked Man's number of henchmen throughout the rest of the game, and was a particular advantage in 2 inc… [view original content]
I dont understand this thread. Its truly puzzling. Sure, Snow is controlling and has a "my way is the only way" attitude, but it is absolutely stupid to say you hate her. Even if you just are going to argue for the sake of arguing you can't dispute she probably saved Bigbys life in the alley. Without her, the bad guys win. She makes the game worth while to play. Without her, Bigby is just working for a lost cause.
She's not going to be working on anyone else with the investigation, anyhow. Crane sure as hell isn't going to be conducting any investigation. And, yes, you really have no chance if Bigby were the murderer. And, there's more reason to trust that Bigby is not involved than there is to trust that Crane is not somehow involved. Even if there's no reason to think Crane isn't working for the Crooked Man, you can never know if he's connected in some way until you do some preliminary investigations -- before he is needlessly told.
I was saying that it wasn't Snow White's job to report crimes to Crane because you were saying that it was. I was merely contesting that she had any obligation to do so.
I said earlier that I knew of no reason to trust Crane. There are some reasons not to trust him (and the game indicates that they certainly don't have a good working relationship). And I can guarantee that Crane never saved her life like Bigby had.
That's like saying: "Come on dude I had math class in school, so obviously I know 4+4 = 25".
I haven't questioned whether you have read the comics or not. The things you have been saying have been faulty though. You have made comparisons to American government more than once. You have stated that the game handles trials differently than is done in the comics, when in the comics there isn't even a set way of handling those issues anyway.
Obviously when you tell me that I don't know how they handle things in Fabletown, you are questioning my knowledge of the comics. What the hell else would it be? And if you ever tell me that I don't know anything about math, perhaps I will let you know that I have a master's degree in it. Otherwise, if you intend to make insults about what I do and don't know, please back them up with canonical evidence.
What reasons would those be? He doesn't give her any reason to believe that, until they find out the truth about him in Episode Three.
I also love how you have conveniently ignored the point I made about both Bigby and Snow agreeing to the fact that the murderer was operating out in the open. There was a head placed on their freaking doorstep, and both of them assumed the murderer did it. There really isn't any reason for her not to tell Crane considering how both Bigby and herself think the murderer placed the head on their doorstep.
I don't believe they agree on that unless your Bigby indicates that. I don't recall ever saying that when I was playing Bigby. Perhaps it's a dialogue you have no control over. I'm not aware of it.
Even if there's little reason to suspect Crane is himself the murderer, that doesn't mean there isn't reason to suspect that Crane has a connection to it that would compel him to impede the investigation.
Please don't put words in my mouth. I have never specifically described how things are run in Fabletown, other than pointing out that they don't have a cut and dry set of rules regarding how they handle trials. So how can my argument be ridiculous when I haven't really even made one?
I must have misremembered the context of one of your quotes. Regardless, political interference in murder investigations is almost often in opposition to the truth, in Fabletown and anywhere else.
Telling Bigby means that 2 people know. Why is a 3rd necessary? To say that telling Crane was the only sensible thing to do is absurd. She s… moreaid herself, in hindsight, that she shouldn't have told him.
Because if only Bigby knows, he is the only one she is going to be working with to solve the crime (on the scene, and behind the scenes), if she is going to be working with him at all. Nothing would ever get solved, because obviously Bigby wouldn't prove himself to be the murderer. You could argue that Bigby would probably get away with it anyway, but at least you have a chance if you have other individuals involved with the case. You have no chance if Bigby is involved in the murder and he is also the only other person besides Snow who knows a murder even took place.
Your question makes no sense. Just because Snow is allowed to report things to Crane, that doesn't make it her obligation. She simply is not required to report crimes… [view original content]
Because they don't do things stupidly in the comics.
Subjective viewpoint.
Crane ignores a Fable who is a serial murderer because he doesn't think it can be traced back to Fabletown. He's a callous bastard. King Cole shuts down an investigation of a murder that financially benefited Fabletown. That's pragmatic. Prince Charming through someone down the Witching Well on the word of one guy who can look at people and see their evil deeds. He wants to keep information from the public. Bigby and Cindarella murder a traitor without telling anyone back home. They don't want to expose Cindy's secret identity. Bigby murders countless agents of the Adversary. Prince Charming allows one of his own agents to be sentenced in order to preserve the secrecy of a mission. The only thing done remotely above board was a war crimes tribunal to punish the members of an insurrection.
What's your point exactly? This is only helps prove what I have been saying about your comparisons between dealing with criminals in the game and dealing with criminals in the comics. The Fabletown leadership can basically do whatever they want when they know someone is threatening them, and their ways about going about it are not consistent. So how can you logically say Snow's way of handling the CM is not realistic as to what would happen in the comics? Maybe in the comics the leadership would have been fine with Bigby simply killing the CM and being done with it, but we can't really just assume that. The situations are not the same. Snow wants to get the involved parties at the trial back on her side, because it's pretty apparent in the game that everyone hates the government. That is the entire reason why she wanted the CM alive. If she didn't care what anyone thought, she would probably consider letting Bigby handle the CM how he saw fit. But no, in the game she is all about fixing the horrible public perception of the government.
I haven't read all of the comics yet, but from what I have seen, we don't have any reason to think Snow as an individual would do anything differently.
And I never once heard Snow White crusade for due process.And no one ever questioned Bigby's ability to do his job properly or misplaced faith in him to do so.
Ok, but this doesn't have anything to do with what we are talking about. Kind of going off on a tangent here.
To argue that any method is reasonable for the writers to use because there's no set method for the comics is absurd.
Umm... no it isn't at all. We see different ways of doing things done from incident to incident in the comics, so how can we hold the trial in the game to any set standard? That is the only thing absurd here.
Because the ultimate rule is that they will do whatever is best for Fabletown, based on the judgment of the administration. And the first thing they wouldn't do is something stupid, like having a public trial that they are at risk of losing without a lying prostitute because Snow White stupidly didn't allow Bigby to finish his investigation.
It's only stupid in your opinion. As I have beaten you over the head with over and over again, it doesn't matter if you think her methods were stupid. They worked. And no, it did not necessarily depend on a lying Nerrissa. Nerrissa doesn't even give any legitimate evidence; she only helps win the crowd over. Snow and Bigby had already been doing this. That was the whole point of the trial, to win the crowd over to their side. Even with Nerissa, nothing gets proven as far as the murders go. The CM questions this, but no one is willing to listen to him because they have already made up their minds. Next thing you know he is getting tossed down the well or getting imprisoned off of zero indisputable evidence towards him being involved in the murders or not.
Do you even really know what Snow wanted to accomplish? And do you not think that a more complete investigation would have accomplished it better? Do you not think that there would have been less risk of that "No evidence!" embarrassment if Snow White hadn't jumped the gun?
There was no evidence to be had. Not sure why you refuse to acknowledge that. They had all the information possible. I mean really.. what more do you want? A recorded phone call of the CM telling Georgie to kill off the girls? That really isn't possible. Even then, the CM could weasel his way out of even that because he simply told Georgie to "take care of them". He never word for word said to kill them. The only "evidence" to be had is the words of the people who worked for him.
As been said time and time again, Bigby and Snow had all the evidence they needed to toss the CM down the well just based on the other charges. From there is was all about getting the interested parties satisfied and on their side.
Would it have been an obviously better way of handling things or not? And if so, is it not stupid to do things in ways that increase the risks to Fabletown's credibility?
Maybe it would have been better just to be thorough. Was it necessary though? No. There was no increased risk to Fabletown's credibility.
How can you say it isn't true to the comic when in the comic they don't have any set way of doing things? I don't believe Snow even wanted t… moreo have a full blown legitimate trial. If she did, she wouldn't have rushed to get things done and only invited a few concerned members of the public. She simply wanted the involved parties to be satisfied with the result.
Because they don't do things stupidly in the comics.
Crane ignores a Fable who is a serial murderer because he doesn't think it can be traced back to Fabletown. He's a callous bastard.
King Cole shuts down an investigation of a murder that financially benefited Fabletown. That's pragmatic.
Prince Charming through someone down the Witching Well on the word of one guy who can look at people and see their evil deeds. He wants to keep information from the public.
Bigby and Cindarella murder a traitor without telling anyone back home. They don't want to expose Cindy's secret ide… [view original content]
It's not subjective. Going forward with just the evidence at hand is indeed stupid. I don't know how you can acknowledge that things would be better with that evidence and not acknowledge that going forward without it is stupid. Do you not understand that there was a risk of losing the trial? That this risk would have been minimized with more evidence? You realize that Nerissa claimed that she was in the room when CM gave the order, right? That's called "evidence." And if Bigby would have had the chance to talk to her before the trial, it wouldn't have even needed to be false evidence.
And what do you mean they had all the information possible? There were other accomplices to round up and interrogate. There were Pudding n' Pie girls to question once the curse was lifted. There was all kinds of more information out there to be gotten. And that "No evidence!?" embarrassment never would have happened. And my goodness, the finale could have used another hour or so of playtime. A wolf chasing suspects through the city streets is completely at odds with anything Bigby ever would have actually done and is further indicative of the poor writing in the finale.
Regardless, I'm tired of arguing this point. It should be freaking indisputable that it's stupid to gather a jury before a suspect is even in custody and before an investigation is complete.
Because they don't do things stupidly in the comics.
Subjective viewpoint.
Crane ignores a Fable who is a serial murderer beca… moreuse he doesn't think it can be traced back to Fabletown. He's a callous bastard. King Cole shuts down an investigation of a murder that financially benefited Fabletown. That's pragmatic. Prince Charming through someone down the Witching Well on the word of one guy who can look at people and see their evil deeds. He wants to keep information from the public. Bigby and Cindarella murder a traitor without telling anyone back home. They don't want to expose Cindy's secret identity. Bigby murders countless agents of the Adversary. Prince Charming allows one of his own agents to be sentenced in order to preserve the secrecy of a mission. The only thing done remotely above board was a war crimes tribunal to punish the members of an insurrection.
What's your point exactly? This is only helps prove what I … [view original content]
Comments
I felt that Bigby was winning, but it was sort of a tie.
I know that. I'm just saying he can use his huff and puff against them.
Now are you done?
Didn't i said i was done with conversation? I did. Leave me alone. I don't fucking need your two cents.
Exactly. Its as much for his benefit as for anyone elses.
Isn't that maybe a little ridiculous though?
Fair enough, though I don't really see why you would bring the idea up in this thread if it wasn't a present issue.
Anyway, just wanted to clarify our intentions.
Not at all. When my superiors at work tell me to do something, they don't have to justify it by telling me their my boss.
Ranting aloud is all, that's nothing unusual, or at least not with those who I hang around. This is usually why I stay away from the Wolf side of the forums... my presence is never really appreciated here.
Bigby doesn't mess with people if they are not lying or doing anything wrong. The community just doesn't understand what the crooked man did and I only attacked/hit people that helped him in some way yet I'm still the fucking bad guy. The community wants to fear Bigby and they should for their own protection. Bigby is a good guy and he does his job. The farm animals Bigby tried to kill, Colin and the other pigs are actually rebels and they kill Colin for not stealing the office key.
Everyone talked to me so I guess they are just the right amount of scared.
Lol I don't think your presence is unappreciated or anything. Just making sure everyone was on the same page.
Early on yes, later on no. The worst Bigby does when someone lies to him or threaten him is throw punches or slam against the wall. Bigby adds charges when he's near Snow, mainly resisting arrest.
And why shouldn't they? Whom did Bigby attack that wasn't a known criminal?
The worst is Beast's babyish whining. He cries that Bigby almost ripped his eyes out when he's the one that activated Beastmode and attacked Bigby.
Yeah, but if you're doing whatever the hell you feel like or not treating them as your boss, its not out of the question that they would.
I'm mainly talking about the way Bigby handles the Tweedles and the Crooked Man. You also have the smaller events throughout the game, such as how you choose to interrogate Johaan, Toad, and whomever you have under arrest back at the Business Office after Snow's supposed death.
And before you say it, it's not about whether you think you were justified in how you handled those situations or not. It's about how it looks to the rest of the community.
This is really what the game was all about. Do you continue to make progress as a person, or do you just prefer to be The Big Bad Wolf, leaving the community to fear you. I think we all know what side Snow is on.
Well by that logic, maybe Snow shouldn't have even told Bigby. After all, it's not impossible that he could have been involved, just as Crane was. The point is, if she had treated everyone as a potential suspect, she would have had to solve the murder by herself. Obviously that isn't realistic though, which is why she informs both Bigby and Crane.
Again though, Snow is not obligated to do anything Bigby asks of her. Since she found out about the murder in the first place, it's as much her business as anyone else's. She has a good reason to notify the acting leader of the town that there is a murderer on the loose.
Think about this: What if Bigby was the one who was working for the CM instead of Crane? Obviously if Snow then told no one about the murder other than Bigby, nothing would ever get done about it. Notifying two parties was actually a really good move by Snow.
That is definitely against Fabletown rules and regulations.
Even if you attack no one without immediate justification except the Crooked Man, Bigby is still accused of abusing mere "suspects." Beast still whines about almost having his eyes gouged out. They're mostly a bunch of babies. Bigby has been the sheriff of Fabletown for decades if not centuries. People know what to expect.
If you attack Georgie or Crane, who never presented a threat, no one says anything about that. Those are the only unjustified attacks that can really happen. And even Snow assaults Crane to make him shut up. Regardless, it's not the smaller genuinely unjustified stuff that's possible that even comes up at the trial.
No one has any reason to think that Bigby is just going to start flying off the handle whenever someone says something he doesn't like, and no reason to think that Bigby is going to abuse mere crime suspects. The game doesn't allow you to go crazy enough to actually give anyone in Fabletown reason to really fear him.
Snow has to tell someone about the crime in order to get it investigated, unless she wants to investigate it herself. She's not an investigator. Bigby is. That's his job. If he tells her not to tell Crane, she shouldn't have, and she even admits as much when she's reminded.
I really don't care what Snow was or was not obligated to do. Only what was prudent for her to do. And what would have been prudent would be to generally trust Bigby, who knows how to investigate. Again, if she needed it spelled out for her, she could have asked for clarification about what sorts of complications Bigby was talking about.
Telling Crane absolutely was not prudent. That's very obviously true in hindsight and it's true in general. If she didn't understand the value of discretion, she shouldn't have even bothered covering Faith's head outside. And, if Bigby was the one who committed the murder, who the heck is going to be available to investigate it if no one saw the actual murder?
Why do you think that she doesn't have any argument? You can't really fairly jump to that conclusion, considering it isn't really discussed in the game. As we have been through, there are definitely reasons for her to feel like killing Dum was unnecessary.
You don't need crazy good perception in order to tell that Bigby was completely mopping the floor with the Tweedles. Bigby had a clear cut choice whether to kill Dum or not, and Snow was standing right there to witness the decision.
So you want her to either lie or be shady about it. As we have discussed, that isn't the way Snow wants to do things. That was the way Crane handled things, and we all know how that worked out for him and the government.
As far as the discussion about Bigby transforming, yes, she was being a tad unrealistic there. Nothing else she said was unrealistic. Thinking that killing Dum was going over the top was not an unrealistic viewpoint.
Bigby doesn't just get to do whatever he wants because he is the sheriff, nor does everyone have to take his perceptions as the correct ones. As Bigby's boss, Snow is totally within her boundaries to question his decision making.
Forgot about him. Anyway, it doesn't matter. We're never given the reasoning behind it, so we can't speculate. I'm sure Snow wouldn't just have him there for zero reason.
Great. Fabletown isn't America.
They don't have a cut and dry way of doing things. In this particular situation, Snow wanted to be open with the public, for reasons we have already discussed.
Not sure why you keep trying to say how things should be done when there isn't any specific way to handle these situations in Fabletown. You've said it yourself, some known criminals don't even get a trial. When the leadership knows there is a known threat to Fabletown, they take care of it in however they see fit. Snow wanted to get rid of the CM, but she wanted a group of people there to see them handle it. You may not have liked the way she handled it, but it really ultimately does not matter.
Depending on the intentions of the killer, it doesn't need to be classified as murder. If Bigby honestly thought he was handling things in okay way, then obviously his intentions aren't murderous.
Yes... I said as much.
You keeping saying she shouldn't have, but it really just boils down to you not wanting her to. She doesn't have to do what you ask.
It's illogical just to completely hang your hat on that. You can't argue that keeping Crane in the dark is prudent but then go ahead and trust one single individual with the information. Given that Snow had zero information on the subject, it was perfectly reasonable for her to inform both parties. Heck, it was probably her job to.
You're kind of just basing all of this on opinion instead of a logical way to go about things. Why should she logically trust Bigby but then turn around and not trust Crane? It does not make any sense. It makes far more sense to inform both parties.
Maybe she just doesn't care, because you know, she is capable of making her own decisions and deciding what is right and wrong. If she thought that the Deputy Mayor needed to know, then it ultimately does not matter that Bigby wants her to leave Crane out of it. And as I keep saying, its far safer and more prudent to inform two parties instead of only one.
How is it true in general?? She had no more reason to tell Crane than she had to tell Bigby.
There's a difference between covering up a decapitated head laying out on the doorstep and deciding to be deceitful with the acting Mayor of Fabletown.
Not sure what this has to do with anything. I'm sure they would do something in the event that he was actually the murderer.
Just to clarify, I'm not saying that Snow should not have told Bigby. She absolutely should have told him, just like she should have told Crane.
If she has an argument to make, she is welcome to make it. But she didn't.
She didn't make that argument. The game didn't actually let you do what was prudent, which was kill Dum and throw him at Blind Mary, whom Bigby knew was armed. Snow didn't even really bother to argue that what Bigby did was unnecessary. She perhaps needs to express herself more clearly if she wants to get her way.
Not necessarily, but the point wasn't relevant at the time, regardless, and it wasn't the appropriate time to discuss it. And it has nothing to do with how Crane handled things. Perhaps only in the most vague sense.
It was more a criticism of the writing. They took nothing from American procedure nor from the comic book canon. It was a contrived occurrence that they couldn't bother to write two completely different ways depending on the occurrence.
That in no way makes what she did smart. It wasn't. She arranged a trial before a suspect was in custody, before witnesses were secured, before any evidence was gathered. That's just pure stupid. If she wanted a group of CM accomplices and victims on hand to view that shit show, that's just more stupidity on her part, which is really just an aspect of bad writing.
Let's not forget that whole "No evidence!" mess at the end of the trial and the look on everyone's (including Snow's) face. Gee, what other evidence could Bigby have gathered with some time before the trial? Oh, I know, let's interview those Pudding n' Pie girls that are no longer under a curse, let's round up some more Crooked Man accomplices that we can turn against him, and let's perhaps find our buddy Kay who can look at people and see all the evil deeds they have done.
There's not a specific way to handle these situations in Fabletown, but there are stupid ways to handle them, and Snow picked one of them.
If Bigby knew that killing Dum wouldn't increase their imminent risk, then he has no excuse. If he had reason to believe that killing Dum would decrease their imminent risk, then there was little cause for anyone to complain to begin with, and it would be legally justified.
You say that, yet you know what happened because Crane knew, and you know what greater risks resulted from Crane's knowledge.
Is that a foreseeable risk? Yes.
Is that an avoidable risk? Yes.
Is that a necessary risk? No.
I would concede that the foreseeable magnitude of the risk, without the benefit of hindsight, is debatable. If the risk is high, I'm right, and if the risk is negligible, you're right. If it's the first murder in Fabletown in decades, I think there's good reason to trust as few people as necessary, and that the risk that someone in power could interfere with the investigation is too great. So it's not just what I wanted her to do, it's what I believe was prudent and wise for her to do. And she ultimately agreed with that assessment after she had told him.
And it's not her job to report crimes to Crane. And it's not Bigby's job to share information about ongoing investigations with the Mayor's office. That's just not how criminal investigations are run, unless there is a media firestorm to manage. And for good reason.
And, again, since Snow acknowledged that she shouldn't have told Crane, that seems a fair indication that she was not obligated to do so even ignoring the comics.
Well, for one, Bigby is the one with the power to do something about it, and Crane isn't. That's a damn good reason to think that Bigby has a greater need to know, isn't it?
Snow personally has good reason to trust Bigby, and no reason I know of to particularly trust Crane. Bigby has already saved countless fables from death and imprisonment at the hands of the Adversary, including Snow and her sister. Despite working with Crane for almost a century, I've never seen anything in the comics that indicates she had any particular reason to trust him, and good reason to believe that he never had Fabletown's best interests at heart.
I mean, if you want to be logical about this, could you at least indicate one thing that Snow could have accomplished by telling Crane?
Perhaps you misspoke. I would of course agree that she had no more reason to tell Crane than to tell Bigby. She in fact had much less reason to tell Crane than to tell Bigby.
Well, that is the point, isn't it? If she wants someone to investigate the crime, she has to tell Bigby. If she doesn't tell Bigby, there's no one left to investigate the crime. What possible harm could come from not telling Crane?
I don't ''like'' her. I mean, she doesn't really care so much for Bigby. In Episode 5, if you bring the crooked man back death, and Bigby says that Georgie killed Faith and Lilly, she asks why he killed them and didn't bring them to them instead. Bigby can then say it was self-defence and it was. It looks like Snow couldn't think that the Crooked man and the others would'nt make it easy for him. He killed them, because if he hadn't killed them, they would've killed him or would she want Bigby to almost get killed? I didn't like her at that moment.
Because she said they would talk about it later. She just wanted to focus on catching the CM at the time. Regardless, it's obvious that there is another side to the story, which we have talked about.
It doesn't matter if she made the argument or not, except to satisfy you as the player. Obviously she thought Bigby took things too far with Dum. Simple reasoning allows us to know why she would have a legitimate reason to feel that way.
Maybe if time allowed it they would have sat down and talked the issue through, but they never had time to do so, other than Snow telling Bigby that he took things too far.
How do you want them to not discuss it and yet turn around and criticize Snow for not defending Bigby when it gets brought up..?
If the topic was irrelevant, then the right thing to do was to shelve the argument, which is what Snow tried to do.
Why should they take anything from America's procedure? They had no reason to do that. It was true to the comic in the sense that the leadership really just handles these situations however they see fit.
Why are you being so stubborn about this? You have it set in your head that things need to be done a certain way, and that just isn't how it is in Fabletown. In the event that the CM gets brought back as a corpse, there is still a reason for having the jury there. The whole point of having those people there was for them to see the CM's fate. It ultimately does not matter if it ended up being a "shit show". She wants to be open with the people, and anyone involved. Its up to you to defend your own actions.
There wasn't any evidence as far as the murders go, but they still had all they needed in order to throw the guy down the well, based on all of the other charges. Honestly, the point of the trial was just making sure that the involved parties were satisfied with the result, and that ended up being the case (in the event of the actual trial obviously).
I guess you can feel that way if you want to, but there is plenty of reason to think otherwise (described above).
That's why I said "depending on the intentions of the killer". Obviously if Bigby had other intentions, then there would be reason to label him as a murderer.
How do you figure..? His intentions were in the bounds of the law, but his actions could be interpreted differently by certain individuals. It's all about Fabletown's image. That's why Snow says that while she doesn't see Bigby as a murder, there wouldn't be much she could do if the citizens of Fabletown saw his actions differently and called for his resignation.
If Snow isn't satisfied with the results of his work, and the people aren't satisfied with the results of his work, then yes, there is reason to dismiss him regardless if he broke the law or not. You don't have to break the law in order for someone to be unsatisfied with your work results.
How hard is it for her to even say the words "It wasn't necessary" in any of the discussions they had about this? She never did. If she really believed that, she should say it.
No, simple reasoning doesn't allow us to know why she would have a legitimate reason to feel that way. She didn't get to play through the game twice and see two difference scenarios play out identically. You did.
Poorly.
They should find a smart way to do it. Either do it according to the comic or use some sensible procedures from American procedure. It was poor writing.
My God, I know how things are in Fabletown. I've read the comics. This scene had absolutely nothing to do with the way things are run in Fabletown. My goodness, can you not even understand that there was more work that needed to be done before having an appropriate trial, even if the Crooked Man was in custody? How freaking hard is that to understand? How hard is it to understand that witnesses are helpful in a trial? How hard is it to understand that it's helpful to complete an investigation before conducting a trial? I mean, do I just have to keep repeating myself on that point before you acknowledge it or refute it? If you think I'm just being stubborn, at least come up with a sensible argument why I'm wrong that waiting would be smarter.
It was stupid. It wasn't the way things ever work in the comics. It was a lot of talk about "due process" without any of the hallmarks of sensible American jurisprudence. It was a shit show with no evidence and was poor writing.
Is that a foreseeable risk? Yes. Is that an avoidable risk? Yes. Is that a necessary risk? No.
It wasn't the smartest move but it was a logical one, it made Bigby's words have solid grounds and added Crane to Bigby's suspect list, which is justifiable.
Actually she knew of the crime first. Bigby could discourage it, but Crane would need to find out since it would and did arouse Bigby's suspicions.
She told Bigby first. The only judicial party in Fabletown is Crane, speeding up the judicial process could be what was on Snow's mind.
Is that a foreseeable risk? Yes. Is that an avoidable risk? Yes. Is that a necessary risk? No.
Obviously bad things came of it (nothing big though), but that isn't the point. Neither Snow or Bigby could have guessed that Crane worked for the CM, just like Snow would have no way of knowing if Bigby worked for the CM. There was risk in telling anyone at all, but she obviously had to do it. And she couldn't just tell one person. That in itself is taking a risk, because the one person you're telling may or may not be involved in the crime. The only sensible thing you can do is notify the leadership and go from there.
And they do trust as few people as necessary. The only two people Snow notifies are Bigby and Crane. You can't honestly fault her for one of those two people secretly working for the CM. Especially when said person is in charge of all town operations and is the acting mayor of the town.
That's just silly. So only the sheriff is allowed to present crimes and problems to the acting mayor?
Again, you keep stating that you know how things are run when you really don't. This is Fabletown, not America. Fabletown does not have to follow American law procedure. How you understand America to do things is completely irrelevant to how Fabletown does things.
She only said that because Crane was angry. That was the only reason. She only wished she had had more information to give him before telling him.
It doesn't matter who has a greater reason to know or not, we're simply talking about who to trust. Logically if you label Crane as a suspect simply because you don't know that he didn't commit the crime, you should be giving Bigby the same treatment.
If you don't really know if she had reason to trust Crane or not, then you can't blame her for trusting the man with the information considering that you're admitting that you don't know anything about her reasons for trusting him. Given that, the purpose of the comparison in this statement doesn't really hold any ground.
I already have. Having two parties aware of the situation lessens the risk of you getting strung along. Obviously if Bigby was the murderer and Snow had only told him about what she had found, the investigation would never get solved (unless Bigby framed someone else).
Other than that, it isn't crazy to think that informing the leadership could be a good thing to do. We don't know the complete details of what his job entails, but as the deputy mayor he would want to do something about the problem, such as maybe warning the public. He ultimately decides discretion is the best way to go about it, but that's besides the point.
And honestly, the more I think about it, notifying Crane (or anyone for that matter) was not even a potential risk in the minds of either Snow or Bigby. As far as they knew, the killer was being entirely open with their own actions. As far as they knew, the killer had dropped his victim's head right on their doorstep. Even Bigby admits that he thinks the killer is acting openly. Therefore notifying Crane was not a risk in either of their minds based on the perceived truths that they had on hand.
Deciding to tell Snow not to notify Crane is entirely up to the player anyway, and has nothing to do with Crane being a potential suspect or accomplice.
Nah, I didn't misspeak. I could have worded that better, though. I was again solely talking about the reasoning behind trusting one or the other.
Yes.. which is why she needed to tell Bigby regardless of the very small risk that he himself could in fact be a suspect. She then implemented a sort of fail-safe to the situation by notifying another member the leadership.
Crane didn't have to find out like that. Crane didn't have to find out she was murdered. His reaction could have been gauged when simply asked if he knew her. Bigby could have gotten the information lots of different ways.
That's not really going to speed things up when an investigation has barely begun. And, King Cole is the judicial party.
Telling Bigby means that 2 people know. Why is a 3rd necessary? To say that telling Crane was the only sensible thing to do is absurd. She said herself, in hindsight, that she shouldn't have told him.
And nothing bad happened? You mean, Dee wasn't released because Crane was involved? And that didn't increase the Crooked Man's number of henchmen throughout the rest of the game, and was a particular advantage in 2 incidents in episode 3?
Your question makes no sense. Just because Snow is allowed to report things to Crane, that doesn't make it her obligation. She simply is not required to report crimes to Crane. Nor is Bigby.
No, I'm not suggesting that Crane should be labeled a suspect simply because she doesn't know. She just has more reason to be cautious and less reason to trust Crane, and it's not Crane's job to investigate crimes. So he simply doesn't need to know what happened. I don't know if Crane had given her any reason to trust him. I do know that Bigby has. I also know that Bigby never gave her a reason not to. Crane had given her reason to know that he didn't have Fabletown's interests at heart.
How many times do I have to make it clear that I've read all of the comics? That means I know how they handle things in Fabletown. How hard is it for you to understand the point I've been making about the poor writing on this aspect of the game? Your whole "this is how they run things in Fabletown" argument is simply ridiculous, because it has no basis in any canon other than how things are stupidly handled in this game.
The entire rant about due process was a tribute to our American ideals. But the execution was a ridiculous mockery of them. That has little to do with my ultimate point, anyway. The stupidity of her actions in prematurely convening the jury and the writers fabricating that scene is the primary sin.
First off, does she really need to say it? With her not being happy with your actions, she obviously thought there was an alternative that you should have taken.
That being said, she openly says that you should have shown a little more restraint, and she says there are degrees of doing things (implying that yours were too high). She comes right out and says "Please explain to Colin why tearing Dum's throat out was necessary". That was her essentially telling you your actions were unnecessary. After her saying that, if you admit that you went too far in your actions, she says; "That's a good first step".
Not really. She couldn't completely avoid giving an answer of some sort considering the intention of the CM bringing it up was to turn the crowd against her and Bigby. By addressing the accusation and then saying it was going to be dealt with, she effectively tried to shelve the debate and still address it at the same time. Simply ignoring the accusation would have been a bad idea.
How can you say it isn't true to the comic when in the comic they don't have any set way of doing things? I don't believe Snow even wanted to have a full blown legitimate trial. If she did, she wouldn't have rushed to get things done and only invited a few concerned members of the public. She simply wanted the involved parties to be satisfied with the result.
Then why are you acting like there is a set way of doing things, or that your perceptions of how something should be done is how it should be done in Fabletown?
You're being comically obtuse and narrow-minded here. I don't know how many times I need to explain this, but the purpose of the trial was really only to get the interested parties (jury) satisfied with the result. It obviously was not a full blown completely legitimate trial, and often times it isn't in the Fables universe. Snow and Bigby already had everything they needed to toss the CM down the witching well just based on the other charges. Sure, they never found evidence that the CM was for sure involved in the murders, but there was literally no evidence to prove otherwise. All they could do is go off of Georgie's confession. Even when Nerissa shows up and gives them her falsified evidence, it really isn't actually evidence at all as she could have been lying... and it turns out she was. It's not like Snow set up this trial empty handed. Honestly if you actually watch the scene unfold, she is more interested in winning over the loyalty of the interested parties at the trial than she is of providing indisputable proof that the CM indeed did order the murders of Faith and Lilly (hint, there is no indisputable proof to be had). At the end of the day even if she wasn't able to win over the crowd about the murder accusations, she could still have the CM tossed down the well because of his indisputable involvement in the other charges.
I've been explaining this to you over, and over, and over again. I haven't been ignoring your argument, and you know I haven't. You simply have it stuck in your head that things need to be done your way, or that the government should be following some sort of unwritten rules.
I'm definitely not saying that there wouldn't be merit to waiting and searching for more evidence, but it ultimately was not needed to accomplish what Snow wanted to accomplish.
Again, I don't know why you keep saying it differs from the comics when in the comics they basically just do whatever they want. They don't have any set way of handling these issues.
And you're only saying that because it didn't work out like you wanted it to. You ignore the fact that there many different ways to accomplish a goal. The way Snow handled the trial worked to accomplish her goals.
And King Cole does justice as Crane sees it. Also Crane is acting on his behalf. It would make Bigby have less paperwork and more time to investigate.
Because they don't do things stupidly in the comics.
Crane ignores a Fable who is a serial murderer because he doesn't think it can be traced back to Fabletown. He's a callous bastard.
King Cole shuts down an investigation of a murder that financially benefited Fabletown. That's pragmatic.
Prince Charming through someone down the Witching Well on the word of one guy who can look at people and see their evil deeds. He wants to keep information from the public.
Bigby and Cindarella murder a traitor without telling anyone back home. They don't want to expose Cindy's secret identity.
Bigby murders countless agents of the Adversary.
Prince Charming allows one of his own agents to be sentenced in order to preserve the secrecy of a mission.
The only thing done remotely above board was a war crimes tribunal to punish the members of an insurrection.
And I never once heard Snow White crusade for due process.And no one ever questioned Bigby's ability to do his job properly or misplaced faith in him to do so.
To argue that any method is reasonable for the writers to use because there's no set method for the comics is absurd.
Because the ultimate rule is that they will do whatever is best for Fabletown, based on the judgment of the administration. And the first thing they wouldn't do is something stupid, like having a public trial that they are at risk of losing without a lying prostitute because Snow White stupidly didn't allow Bigby to finish his investigation.
Do you even really know what Snow wanted to accomplish? And do you not think that a more complete investigation would have accomplished it better? Do you not think that there would have been less risk of that "No evidence!" embarrassment if Snow White hadn't jumped the gun?
Would it have been an obviously better way of handling things or not? And if so, is it not stupid to do things in ways that increase the risks to Fabletown's credibility?
I don't really see how it would decrease any burden on Bigby in the course of his investigation.
Bigby does complain about paperwork even twice. He also complains about it in the comics.
Sure, but the Business Office doesn't do his paperwork for him. He finds his own ways to lessen his paperwork.
Like murdering traitors without notifying anyone back home.
The Business Office does 33% of Bigby's paperwork, 33% is done by Bigby, 33% is after the job is done.
Because if only Bigby knows, he is the only one she is going to be working with to solve the crime (on the scene, and behind the scenes), if she is going to be working with him at all. Nothing would ever get solved, because obviously Bigby wouldn't prove himself to be the murderer. You could argue that Bigby would probably get away with it anyway, but at least you have a chance if you have other individuals involved with the case. You have no chance if Bigby is involved in the murder and he is also the only other person besides Snow who knows a murder even took place.
Okay, but you were implying that she shouldn't have done it just basically because it isn't in her job description.
I mean.. why else would you even say what you did?
Compared to who? Bigby? That isn't even based on anything. You previously said it yourself that you don't know of any reason why she should trust him or not. Given that you don't know, it doesn't make sense to even try and make a comparison to the known reasons she has to trust Bigby. For all we know, she could have decent reasons to trust Crane. It really doesn't even matter though. Even if Bigby is more trustworthy, that doesn't mean one should get notified and the other should not.
That's like saying Obama doesn't need to know about a terrorist attack simply because he isn't going to be on the scene solving the problem.
There is more to the incident than solving the murder itself. Perhaps Crane would want to make a statement or warn the public. Perhaps he has his own ideas on who the murderer could be. Obviously Crane doesn't decide to do any of this, but that doesn't mean he shouldn't be informed. You could even argue that informing Crane is for his own safety, as someone is clearly screwing with the Fabletown government.
What reasons would those be? He doesn't give her any reason to believe that, until they find out the truth about him in Episode Three.
I also love how you have conveniently ignored the point I made about both Bigby and Snow agreeing to the fact that the murderer was operating out in the open. There was a head placed on their freaking doorstep, and both of them assumed the murderer did it. There really isn't any reason for her not to tell Crane considering how both Bigby and herself think the murderer placed the head on their doorstep.
That's like saying: "Come on dude I had math class in school, so obviously I know 4+4 = 25".
I haven't questioned whether you have read the comics or not. The things you have been saying have been faulty though. You have made comparisons to American government more than once. You have stated that the game handles trials differently than is done in the comics, when in the comics there isn't even a set way of handling those issues anyway.
Please don't put words in my mouth. I have never specifically described how things are run in Fabletown, other than pointing out that they don't have a cut and dry set of rules regarding how they handle trials. So how can my argument be ridiculous when I haven't really even made one?
I'm not even going to address this as I already did so in the other conversation that is going on. We don't need to have the same discussion going on in two different places.
I dont understand this thread. Its truly puzzling. Sure, Snow is controlling and has a "my way is the only way" attitude, but it is absolutely stupid to say you hate her. Even if you just are going to argue for the sake of arguing you can't dispute she probably saved Bigbys life in the alley. Without her, the bad guys win. She makes the game worth while to play. Without her, Bigby is just working for a lost cause.
She's not going to be working on anyone else with the investigation, anyhow. Crane sure as hell isn't going to be conducting any investigation. And, yes, you really have no chance if Bigby were the murderer. And, there's more reason to trust that Bigby is not involved than there is to trust that Crane is not somehow involved. Even if there's no reason to think Crane isn't working for the Crooked Man, you can never know if he's connected in some way until you do some preliminary investigations -- before he is needlessly told.
I was saying that it wasn't Snow White's job to report crimes to Crane because you were saying that it was. I was merely contesting that she had any obligation to do so.
I said earlier that I knew of no reason to trust Crane. There are some reasons not to trust him (and the game indicates that they certainly don't have a good working relationship). And I can guarantee that Crane never saved her life like Bigby had.
Obviously when you tell me that I don't know how they handle things in Fabletown, you are questioning my knowledge of the comics. What the hell else would it be? And if you ever tell me that I don't know anything about math, perhaps I will let you know that I have a master's degree in it. Otherwise, if you intend to make insults about what I do and don't know, please back them up with canonical evidence.
I don't believe they agree on that unless your Bigby indicates that. I don't recall ever saying that when I was playing Bigby. Perhaps it's a dialogue you have no control over. I'm not aware of it.
Even if there's little reason to suspect Crane is himself the murderer, that doesn't mean there isn't reason to suspect that Crane has a connection to it that would compel him to impede the investigation.
I must have misremembered the context of one of your quotes. Regardless, political interference in murder investigations is almost often in opposition to the truth, in Fabletown and anywhere else.
Subjective viewpoint.
What's your point exactly? This is only helps prove what I have been saying about your comparisons between dealing with criminals in the game and dealing with criminals in the comics. The Fabletown leadership can basically do whatever they want when they know someone is threatening them, and their ways about going about it are not consistent. So how can you logically say Snow's way of handling the CM is not realistic as to what would happen in the comics? Maybe in the comics the leadership would have been fine with Bigby simply killing the CM and being done with it, but we can't really just assume that. The situations are not the same. Snow wants to get the involved parties at the trial back on her side, because it's pretty apparent in the game that everyone hates the government. That is the entire reason why she wanted the CM alive. If she didn't care what anyone thought, she would probably consider letting Bigby handle the CM how he saw fit. But no, in the game she is all about fixing the horrible public perception of the government.
I haven't read all of the comics yet, but from what I have seen, we don't have any reason to think Snow as an individual would do anything differently.
Ok, but this doesn't have anything to do with what we are talking about. Kind of going off on a tangent here.
Umm... no it isn't at all. We see different ways of doing things done from incident to incident in the comics, so how can we hold the trial in the game to any set standard? That is the only thing absurd here.
It's only stupid in your opinion. As I have beaten you over the head with over and over again, it doesn't matter if you think her methods were stupid. They worked. And no, it did not necessarily depend on a lying Nerrissa. Nerrissa doesn't even give any legitimate evidence; she only helps win the crowd over. Snow and Bigby had already been doing this. That was the whole point of the trial, to win the crowd over to their side. Even with Nerissa, nothing gets proven as far as the murders go. The CM questions this, but no one is willing to listen to him because they have already made up their minds. Next thing you know he is getting tossed down the well or getting imprisoned off of zero indisputable evidence towards him being involved in the murders or not.
There was no evidence to be had. Not sure why you refuse to acknowledge that. They had all the information possible. I mean really.. what more do you want? A recorded phone call of the CM telling Georgie to kill off the girls? That really isn't possible. Even then, the CM could weasel his way out of even that because he simply told Georgie to "take care of them". He never word for word said to kill them. The only "evidence" to be had is the words of the people who worked for him.
As been said time and time again, Bigby and Snow had all the evidence they needed to toss the CM down the well just based on the other charges. From there is was all about getting the interested parties satisfied and on their side.
Maybe it would have been better just to be thorough. Was it necessary though? No. There was no increased risk to Fabletown's credibility.
It's not subjective. Going forward with just the evidence at hand is indeed stupid. I don't know how you can acknowledge that things would be better with that evidence and not acknowledge that going forward without it is stupid. Do you not understand that there was a risk of losing the trial? That this risk would have been minimized with more evidence? You realize that Nerissa claimed that she was in the room when CM gave the order, right? That's called "evidence." And if Bigby would have had the chance to talk to her before the trial, it wouldn't have even needed to be false evidence.
And what do you mean they had all the information possible? There were other accomplices to round up and interrogate. There were Pudding n' Pie girls to question once the curse was lifted. There was all kinds of more information out there to be gotten. And that "No evidence!?" embarrassment never would have happened. And my goodness, the finale could have used another hour or so of playtime. A wolf chasing suspects through the city streets is completely at odds with anything Bigby ever would have actually done and is further indicative of the poor writing in the finale.
Regardless, I'm tired of arguing this point. It should be freaking indisputable that it's stupid to gather a jury before a suspect is even in custody and before an investigation is complete.