"I really hope you never get to be in a position where you get to make that call" --> Uniformed jab at my professionalism, making comments on something were you don't know and cannot know.
From what you said, it appears that if it was you who had to decide whether to release the game at the end of the month with lots of known bugs or delay one week, you would have it released buggy, with a patch coming later. And that would really make me loose respect for TTG, since it would affect my level of enjoyment of the game, and could make me consider not to buy the next season. And I'm sure that would be the case for lots of other people (from what I've read in the forums).
So yes, I'm glad you don't get to make that call for the software I buy. It's an honest opinion, I never called you stupid or anything.
Am I talking about web based information systems in general? No.
Me neither, you started talking about Amazon, and Ebay, etc. I'm just saying that the number and experience in computers of people who play videogames are orders of magnitude different from those of other kind of software, that's one of the things that make patching very difficult.
If you want a nice read, I just remembered an article on the subject:
From what you said, it appears that if it was you who had to decide whether to release the game at the end of the month with lots of known bugs or delay one week, you would have it released buggy, with a patch coming later. And that would really make me loose respect for TTG, since it would affect my level of enjoyment of the game, and could make me consider not to buy the next season. And I'm sure that would be the case for lots of other people (from what I've read in the forums).
So yes, I'm glad you don't get to make that call for the software I buy. It's an honest opinion, I never called you stupid or anything.
Having read your article I still argue my case with the development method discussed earlier, of course not all methods (a methodology is a method about methods often miss used in this field) work for everything, but I stand my ground on what I discussed earlier. Would I release a buggy game? No, I would release a game which would have low prioritized features missing. The article is quite right XP and automated tests do not find all bugs, not even acceptance tests find all bugs or faults in the system as a lot of things do not surface until they are running sharp.
But using a top down development instead of the more traditionally layered most methods suggest you don't have this problem. Every feature is bug free before you move on to the next, does this give longer development time? No. For the end result it takes about as long regardless of how you do it but it does mean that if you run up on your deadline you have something you can release which is fully useable and bug free but there may be some low prioritized features missing.
What makes the low prioritized features differ between the 5 words in your article rather then how and when they can be released.
Me neither, you started talking about Amazon, and Ebay, etc. I'm just saying that the number and experience in computers of people who play videogames are orders of magnitude different from those of other kind of software, that's one of the things that make patching very difficult.
If you want a nice read, I just remembered an article on the subject:
The point here being: there's no ONE PERFECT development process, it will be different according to the kind of software you're developing.
Patching a game is not that much harder then an other system, a lot of games today require an internet connection to some extent, look at a game like dragon age were you need to have an internet connection to play in order to play at all once you got some dlc or world of warcraft which is commonly patched and modified. Even look at TTGs games which require an internet connection in order to be: bought/acquired/activated. Putting it embedded within the game you are quite able to distribute your patch to a lot of people fast. Future on, the patch would only contain new features and not bug fixes in greater extent then it would if the game had been fully developed.
I agree on that there is not one perfect development process or method, there is always room for improvement. But developing your software starting and ending at opportune places (discussed above) you are half way there.
Patching a game is not that much harder then an other system, a lot of games today require an internet connection to some extent, look at a game like dragon age were you need to have an internet connection to play in order to play at all once you got some dlc or world of warcraft which is commonly patched and modified. Even look at TTGs games which require an internet connection in order to be: bought/acquired/activated. Putting it embedded within the game you are quite able to distribute your patch to a lot of people fast. Future on, the patch would only contain new features and not bug fixes in greater extent then it would if the game had been fully developed.
In the article there's a different explanation about why games are difficult to patch. I talked about the number of users and their inexperience in computers, difficulties which, as you correctly stated, can be overcame given the use of the internet and automatic patching tools. But when Joel (the article's author) talks about this, he says:
Once your users have played through Duke Nukem 3D, they are not going to upgrade to Duke Nukem 3.1D just to get some bug fixes and new weapons. With some exceptions, once somebody has played the game to the end, it's boring to play it again.
and that PERFECTLY applies to Tales of Monkey Island.
If I play an "unfinished version" (without some minor features) of Chapter 5 at the end of the month, I'm not going to play it again one week later just to see the minor improvements. While some people do play adventure games more than once, I think most people usually don't. I haven't played any chapter of Tales more than once, maybe I will, but not in the near future (I play Grim Fandango once every summer).
If I get a not-as-good-as-it-should-be version of the game, it doesn't matter if it is because it's bugged or just lacking some features, the point is that my enjoyment of the game will be less than it should be.
While some long term games like WoW may be easy to upgrade and patch because people is in constant interaction with the developer. Short adventure games, that you play on one afternoon and it's likely you won't play them again simply (like Joel says) have to get it right the first time.
P.S. English is not my first language, so please excuse any english errors I may have.
Juanique99, JohanShogun, I think both you guys have made your point. Neither of you is going to convince the other. Your posts have been read, your points have been heard, but at this point you guys are both spinning your wheels a little, I think. Please bring this to a close or give it a rest!
then ive finished assassins creed 2(what a SICK SICK ending, nearly more SICK than the ending in FEAR 2!!! im now totally ready and waiting for ToMi only some few days left!!!!
I've been occupying myself with a massive project. I just finished cataloging my entire video game collection, not including PC games or the Atari, and including WiiWare and the Virtual Console as their own systems. According to my list, I have approximately 197 games, 141 of which I intend to finish. The other 56 were disqualified for one reason or another. Of the ones I intend to finish, I've finished about 91 of them, or about 65%. So what am I doing while I wait for next Tuesday? Whittling down the list.
Last night I beat Sonic Spinball. Tonight, it's Toy Story for the Sega Genesis.
^ I've been trying to finish Sonic Spinball on and off since it came out. My efforts were resumed when I got one of those portable Mega Drive contraptions with the built in games but still had no luck. I got very close (many times) but it's a difficult game! I've never understood why it wasn't better received, it's ace.
I'm starting up Kings quest 1 and 2..till then I wait til the 8th.
Be ware that the first game is impossible unless you know about fairy tales and folklore, I consider this a major weakness to the game. :rolleyes:It's not all about puzzles, alot of the puzzles are external and disconnected from the game. Make sure you know all about fairy tales before you play, I dread that about the game.
^ I've been trying to finish Sonic Spinball on and off since it came out. My efforts were resumed when I got one of those portable Mega Drive contraptions with the built in games but still had no luck. I got very close (many times) but it's a difficult game! I've never understood why it wasn't better received, it's ace.
It's incredibly hard, and honestly, the only reason I managed to beat it this time is because I left my original copy on the shelf, played it in the Homebrew Channel on my Wii, and abused the hell out of save states for the last level. Without such cheating, I can usually make it to the last level but not accomplish anything there.
Also, now that I've played Pokemon Pinball and Metroid Prime Pinball, the pinball physics in Sonic Spinball seem really broken somehow...
It's incredibly hard, and honestly, the only reason I managed to beat it this time is because I left my original copy on the shelf, played...on my Wii, and abused the hell out of...the last level. Without such...I can usually make it to the last level but not accomplish anything there.
...did anybody say it yet? No? :eek: This must be corrected.
Right, I'm sick of this now, I've gotten quite a bit of low jabs and stupid remarks by now and now I'm sick of it. I'm now going to sink to your level and be just as insulting and narrow-minded. This is also going to be my last post on this topic as I am not here to argue with stupid fanboys, I'm here to get my point across to TTG who I hope by now have read what I have to say and realize that they have to use a Swedish expression "have taken a crap in the blue locker".
You're pathetically out of context. Systems you use over and over again like online shops, auction sites, MMORPGs you can just "get out there" once it's good enough and people will start using it, then you improve and attract more users over time.
This is an adventure game, more than half the fun is the story, the puzzles and the jokes. I doubt even 10% will play ToMI more than once, it doesn't matter how good it is - without any surprises in the story, without any new puzzles and with stale jokes it's not good anymore. They will have nothing but the experience at the time they bought it and most will buy it right after release.
In short, you are WRONG and you're handling it badly. You've found a nail you can hammer in and is now trying to apply the same method to bolts and screws clearly not knowing what you're talking about. I too am very glad you're not managing TTG or (hopefully) any of my projects.
The way I see it, there must be a golden middle. You can't blame someone for releasing something a week later (After all, many game developers postpone for a longer period). I mean, if that will make the final product better, why not? There are enough examples when keeping true to the release date (or month, for that matter) made more bad than good. On the other hand, there are also enough examples when dragging out too much also made more bad than good.
After all, developing a game is like making art (why "like"? A game IS art), and though comparison with developing some kind of computer system IS logical by all means, I do not consider it right.
Comments
From what you said, it appears that if it was you who had to decide whether to release the game at the end of the month with lots of known bugs or delay one week, you would have it released buggy, with a patch coming later. And that would really make me loose respect for TTG, since it would affect my level of enjoyment of the game, and could make me consider not to buy the next season. And I'm sure that would be the case for lots of other people (from what I've read in the forums).
So yes, I'm glad you don't get to make that call for the software I buy. It's an honest opinion, I never called you stupid or anything.
Me neither, you started talking about Amazon, and Ebay, etc. I'm just saying that the number and experience in computers of people who play videogames are orders of magnitude different from those of other kind of software, that's one of the things that make patching very difficult.
If you want a nice read, I just remembered an article on the subject:
http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/FiveWorlds.html
The point here being: there's no ONE PERFECT development process, it will be different according to the kind of software you're developing.
You wickedy white wizard you.
Sometimes, what we do..really goes no where. That's a thought in life, do we ever go anywhere? for the sake of the thread.
I hope, this episode is epic!
But using a top down development instead of the more traditionally layered most methods suggest you don't have this problem. Every feature is bug free before you move on to the next, does this give longer development time? No. For the end result it takes about as long regardless of how you do it but it does mean that if you run up on your deadline you have something you can release which is fully useable and bug free but there may be some low prioritized features missing.
What makes the low prioritized features differ between the 5 words in your article rather then how and when they can be released.
Patching a game is not that much harder then an other system, a lot of games today require an internet connection to some extent, look at a game like dragon age were you need to have an internet connection to play in order to play at all once you got some dlc or world of warcraft which is commonly patched and modified. Even look at TTGs games which require an internet connection in order to be: bought/acquired/activated. Putting it embedded within the game you are quite able to distribute your patch to a lot of people fast. Future on, the patch would only contain new features and not bug fixes in greater extent then it would if the game had been fully developed.
I agree on that there is not one perfect development process or method, there is always room for improvement. But developing your software starting and ending at opportune places (discussed above) you are half way there.
In the article there's a different explanation about why games are difficult to patch. I talked about the number of users and their inexperience in computers, difficulties which, as you correctly stated, can be overcame given the use of the internet and automatic patching tools. But when Joel (the article's author) talks about this, he says:
and that PERFECTLY applies to Tales of Monkey Island.
If I play an "unfinished version" (without some minor features) of Chapter 5 at the end of the month, I'm not going to play it again one week later just to see the minor improvements. While some people do play adventure games more than once, I think most people usually don't. I haven't played any chapter of Tales more than once, maybe I will, but not in the near future (I play Grim Fandango once every summer).
If I get a not-as-good-as-it-should-be version of the game, it doesn't matter if it is because it's bugged or just lacking some features, the point is that my enjoyment of the game will be less than it should be.
While some long term games like WoW may be easy to upgrade and patch because people is in constant interaction with the developer. Short adventure games, that you play on one afternoon and it's likely you won't play them again simply (like Joel says) have to get it right the first time.
P.S. English is not my first language, so please excuse any english errors I may have.
Hey guys! Sorry I'm late! What'd I miss? Guys? What are you doing with that? Guys! Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!
Last night I beat Sonic Spinball. Tonight, it's Toy Story for the Sega Genesis.
Be ware that the first game is impossible unless you know about fairy tales and folklore, I consider this a major weakness to the game. :rolleyes:It's not all about puzzles, alot of the puzzles are external and disconnected from the game. Make sure you know all about fairy tales before you play, I dread that about the game.
I hope the second isn't as stupid.
Man, Chapter 5 is gonna be AMAZING!
Without Winslow?
I totally agree.
We'll probably see something new for the release of the final chapter....oooor just the image of Guybrush's grave again.
It's incredibly hard, and honestly, the only reason I managed to beat it this time is because I left my original copy on the shelf, played it in the Homebrew Channel on my Wii, and abused the hell out of save states for the last level. Without such cheating, I can usually make it to the last level but not accomplish anything there.
Also, now that I've played Pokemon Pinball and Metroid Prime Pinball, the pinball physics in Sonic Spinball seem really broken somehow...
...did anybody say it yet? No? :eek: This must be corrected.
LoveGuruMikeMyers,
...
...
...
-smack-
You're pathetically out of context. Systems you use over and over again like online shops, auction sites, MMORPGs you can just "get out there" once it's good enough and people will start using it, then you improve and attract more users over time.
This is an adventure game, more than half the fun is the story, the puzzles and the jokes. I doubt even 10% will play ToMI more than once, it doesn't matter how good it is - without any surprises in the story, without any new puzzles and with stale jokes it's not good anymore. They will have nothing but the experience at the time they bought it and most will buy it right after release.
In short, you are WRONG and you're handling it badly. You've found a nail you can hammer in and is now trying to apply the same method to bolts and screws clearly not knowing what you're talking about. I too am very glad you're not managing TTG or (hopefully) any of my projects.
After all, developing a game is like making art (why "like"? A game IS art), and though comparison with developing some kind of computer system IS logical by all means, I do not consider it right.
I agree.
Let’s watch »Backt to the Future« again!
I bet you won't, chicken!
Sorry. Had to... Can I come Majus?
You mean you guys hang and chill together?
Nobody... calls me... a..
*rapidly opens the door and smashes majus' nose with it*
Film started!
You guys commin?!
No... But for you Mr. Majus... (suggestive look)
Ohhh... -grabs and chews on-
...
-makes like a tree and gets out of here-
-makes like a banana and leaves-
Too bad I don't live near you Mr. Majus.