Beyond the Alley of the Dolls Speculation Thread

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  • edited June 2010
    Weird. I thought there was liquid in the urn, which would be why the brain was in an urn in the first place instead of being in a glass case or something. I remember Sammun-Mak mentioning having his brain preserved in crocodile tears and something else.

    In fact, I'm just assuming. Sammun Mak did have intructions about his what to do with his brain, but I'm somewhat sure that Crocodrile Tears weren't there when Sam pick up the brain. Also, Gordon was also "dead" until they used the Demon Broth, but he still was (somewhat) moisty even if he was dead.
  • edited June 2010
    Grrr I tried to post a really long reply but is got swallowed dammit! I'm not happy but I'll try again, using Notepad.

    There are 4 things that you're all forgetting that are crucial to the entire season:

    1) It's no coincidence the Narrator and the Devil have pretty much the same voice with only an accentual difference - both are voiced by Kid Beyond. Dr Norrington, however, had a different voice actor.

    2) Upon our first visit to Papierwaite's office, during his conversation with Dr Norrington, he mentions the tapestry as "the Tapestry of Yog-Soggoth" as opposed to "your tapestry", so Yog-Soggoth and Dr Norrington are separate entities, even if they are all vying for the same goal (to get Yog-Soggoth into the physical realm).

    3) Four things didn't quite add up in episode 204 - Momma Bosco rubbing shoulders with the then president; Momma Bosco didn't bat an eyelid to the elevator appearing then Sam & Max popping out of it; Superball was perfectly entertaining towards Sam & Max strolling about the 1960s' Oval Office freely and letting Max change the official date; he certainly seemed to me to imply he knew Momma Bosco personally. I have a theory that Superball and Momma Bosco go waaaaay back, involving cloning and time-travel, I daresay.

    4) Momma Bosco had all those portraits of those dog-human hybrids and hyperkinetic rabbitty-things. So it's probable she knows more about Sam & Max's lineage than she will ever let on.


    I would like to put the suggestion forward to you folks that Momma Bosco has been tracking Sam & Max ever since they told her Max had started collecting the Toys of Power. When Skun-ka'pe removed Max's brain, she set to work on an army of Sam clones to protect both Max and the Toybox. They were pretty much ready for deployment when Sammun-Mak altered reality so were released the moment reality returned to normal (notice that only Max wasn't brainwashed, so it's almost certain Momma Bosco forgot temporarily why she'd created the clones).


    I would also like to suggest the so-called villain lineup is only the supporting cast of main antagonists, whether deliberately keeping Max/Maximus from the Toybox or not. Think about it - is it at all probable that the Stinkys and Sal even know about the Toybox? I bet Kringle doesn't even know what potential the Toys of Power have. Can we justifiably call the 1901 moles villains? We're more villainous towards Jurgen than the other way round, even if he was trying to capture the Toybox for Yog-Soggoth (perhaps for Dr Norrington). The Giant Max could easily be the shrine in 303 and we have a real Giant Max coming up.
  • edited June 2010
    tbm1986 wrote: »
    I would like to put the suggestion forward to you folks that Momma Bosco has been tracking Sam & Max ever since they told her Max had started collecting the Toys of Power. When Skun-ka'pe removed Max's brain, she set to work on an army of Sam clones to protect both Max and the Toybox. They were pretty much ready for deployment when Sammun-Mak altered reality so were released the moment reality returned to normal (notice that only Max wasn't brainwashed, so it's almost certain Momma Bosco forgot temporarily why she'd created the clones).
    Keep in mind that there's less than a day between Max starting to collect the Toys and his brain being stolen. It's a bit hard to swallow that she could create a clone army that quickly.
  • edited June 2010
    And the reincarnation theory is very well thought out, Queen of Lobsters. If reincarnation does exist in the real world, there's the theory that some English kings have had such relationships with advisors, the ones I'm thinking of being Henry II & Thomas Becket and Henry VIII & Thomas More.
  • edited June 2010
    Harald B wrote: »
    Keep in mind that there's less than a day between Max starting to collect the Toys and his brain being stolen. It's a bit hard to swallow that she could create a clone army that quickly.

    I must admit you've got me there.
  • edited June 2010
    I've come up with a theory about the Toybox that I like more and more. I think The Devil's Toybox has Yog-Soggoth trapped within it, and that it was made for that purpose. When you draw dark energy from the box or reshape reality with it, you're actually drawing on the power of the god inside to do that. The Toybox is relatively easy to use like that because that is part of the plan: using the power of the box weakens Yog-Soggoth.
    I also think that someone with the Toybox, the right mind and the know-how can use the box to create Toys of Power, and that each Toy has a fragment of the essence of Yog-Soggoth inside that powers it.
    This theory conveniently explains why you absolutely need the Toybox and as many Toys of Power as possible to summon Yog-Soggoth, why Yog-Soggoth worshipers have been going after the Toys since ancient times, and why Papierwaite wasn't surprised when Maximus told him he saw Yog-Soggoth coming out of the box.
  • edited June 2010
    For someone who played such a crucial part in her hi-tech lab in the first episode, Mama Bosco has gone far too quiet far too quickly.

    And why did she 'never exist' under the rule of Sammun-Mak?

    We all know she is trying to become human again but what negative effects could that have on the universe?

    And last of all she seemed to know a little too little about the toys...
  • edited June 2010
    tabstis wrote: »
    For someone who played such a crucial part in her hi-tech lab in the first episode, Mama Bosco has gone far too quiet far too quickly.

    And why did she 'never exist' under the rule of Sammun-Mak?

    We all know she is trying to become human again but what negative effects could that have on the universe?

    And last of all she seemed to know a little too little about the toys...

    Unless we end up INSIDE that Toybox, I think it's highly probable Momma Bosco and Superball will be back within the prologue or Act 1 of 304.
  • edited June 2010
    Harald B wrote: »
    I've come up with a theory about the Toybox that I like more and more. I think The Devil's Toybox has Yog-Soggoth trapped within it, and that it was made for that purpose. When you draw dark energy from the box or reshape reality with it, you're actually drawing on the power of the god inside to do that. The Toybox is relatively easy to use like that because that is part of the plan: using the power of the box weakens Yog-Soggoth.
    I also think that someone with the Toybox, the right mind and the know-how can use the box to create Toys of Power, and that each Toy has a fragment of the essence of Yog-Soggoth inside that powers it.
    This theory conveniently explains why you absolutely need the Toybox and as many Toys of Power as possible to summon Yog-Soggoth, why Yog-Soggoth worshipers have been going after the Toys since ancient times, and why Papierwaite wasn't surprised when Maximus told him he saw Yog-Soggoth coming out of the box.

    I like your thinking, but the opposite could be true, in which case TT are basically ripping off Lord of the Rings.
  • edited June 2010
    Next episode's cliffhanger - Max will have gathered all the toys and they will have defeated all enemies but Yog Soggoth will be summoned by Dr. Norrington using those toys and the box.
  • edited June 2010
    tabstis wrote: »
    Next episode's cliffhanger - Max will have gathered all the toys and they will have defeated all enemies but Yog Soggoth will be summoned by Dr. Norrington using those toys and the box.

    Going by 305's icon, the Yog-Soggoth summoning as a cliffhanger seems most likely.

    ... Or, just to screw with us -- *dons tin-foil hat* -- the episode will end just when Max fulfills the part of the prophecy where he destroys the universe. Which will leave us staring blankly at the credits, wondering " ... Um, how the hell are we supposed to continue from that?"

    Then, consonant with tbm1986's thought a few posts up, 305 opens with only a select few (including Sam and Max, of course) having survived whatever cataclysm destroyed everything else by being sucked into the black box Toybox, which as previously hinted can hold more matter than its size should logically dictate.

    *takes off tin-foil hat* ... But then again, I rather doubt the "destroy the universe" part of the story will come into play that soon. I think we'll see some really-for-real Yog-Soggoth action before that, especially since (if I recall Mama Bosco correctly) it will be the entrance of eldritch gods into Sam and Max's plane of existence that will herald the coming destruction of time and space as we know it -- with perhaps Max's "becoming one with infinity" completing the process.
  • edited June 2010
    Um, how the hell are we supposed to continue from that?"

    Doctor who did it.
  • edited June 2010
    ... So when Sam and Max emerge from the Toybox, they'll be cell-shaded and speak in their voices from the animated series?
  • edited June 2010
    tabstis wrote: »
    Everyone is assuming that they are clones. With the running egyptian theme, aren't they wearing the same stuff as the slaves did and do in the egyptian exhibit?

    Hey! That's a good point!
  • edited June 2010
    *takes off tin-foil hat* ... But then again, I rather doubt the "destroy the universe" part of the story will come into play that soon. I think we'll see some really-for-real Yog-Soggoth action before that, especially since (if I recall Mama Bosco correctly) it will be the entrance of eldritch gods into Sam and Max's plane of existence that will herald the coming destruction of time and space as we know it -- with perhaps Max's "becoming one with infinity" completing the process.

    For those of you who have read/watched Lord of the Rings, you can see where I was going now, surely? Possible spoilers of LotR up ahead:
    Yog-Soggoth & Dr Norrington = Sauron; the eldritch gods = the ringwraiths (apocalyptic horsemen basically in the destruction of the universe theory); Sammun-Mak = gollum; Toys of Power/Toybox = the Ring; Momma Bosco/Superball/Sam/Anubis = Gandalf; Papierwaite = Saruman; Max = Frodo; moles = men or hobbits?

    The more Toys a psychic brain has, the more vulnerable the brain is to Yog-Soggoth, the knights and Dr Norrington. The trouble with that theory is Dr Norrington had to use the moles and Max to defeat Sammun-Mak, so maybe the opposite is true.

    But the problem with that is Dr Norrington actually wanted Papierwaite to gather up as many of the Toys as possible. That would mean Yog-Soggoth would have been most vulnerable when Sammun-Mak found the Toybox just before he altered reality.

    I don't think though any of us are in any doubt that the Devil's Toybox, aside from containing the Toys, is both a vortex and a portal/gateway.
  • edited June 2010
    GinnyN wrote: »
    Hey! That's a good point!

    If that leads to what I think you're both on about, that's quite a noticeable plothole. Everything else returned to normal so why should Sammun-Mak's slaves still be there?
  • edited June 2010
    tbm1986 wrote: »
    If that leads to what I think you're both on about, that's quite a noticeable plothole. Everything else returned to normal so why should Sammun-Mak's slaves still be there?

    Because those aren't Sammun-Mak's, those are Anubis'! =P
  • edited June 2010
    GinnyN wrote: »
    Because those aren't Sammun-Mak's, those are Anubis'! =P

    Which leads me to wonder ... if they do belong to Anubis, could this mean Anubis himself isn't too far behind? And wouldn't that suggest the worst-case scenario Mama Bosco predicted for the activation of her dimensional destabilizer is coming to pass (supposing that she finished the machine sometime between when we last saw her and now, of course)?
  • edited June 2010
    Which leads me to wonder ... if they do belong to Anubis, could this mean Anubis himself isn't too far behind? And wouldn't that suggest the worst-case scenario Mama Bosco predicted for the activation of her dimensional destabilizer is coming to pass (supposing that she finished the machine sometime between when we last saw her and now, of course)?

    Question: Which was the worst case scenario Mama Bosco predicted?
  • edited June 2010
    GinnyN wrote: »
    Question: Which was the worst case scenario Mama Bosco predicted?

    Hear, hear! Do we all have to play Penal Zone again or are you (@light_rises) going to satisfy our curiosity?
    GinnyN wrote: »
    Because those aren't Sammun-Mak's, those are Anubis'! =P

    Crikey, I hadn't thought of that! Still, I'd have thought they'd have disappeared when reality reverted to its normal state if that's the case.
  • edited June 2010
    Phew! Found a save on the PS3 version of 301 that would let me hear this again. ^^;

    When you select the dimensional destabilizer for the first time, you get this dialogue:
    Sam: It's Mama Bosco's dimensional destabilizer thing.

    Max: Push that green button! What's the worst it could do?

    Mama Bosco: Tear a hole in the fabric of existence and bring the Elder Gods back to this dimensional plane.

    Max: Oh. [pause] What happens if you double-click it?
  • edited June 2010
    So... That's mean even if Papierwaite fails in the task of Summoning Yog Soggoth, Mamma Bosco will fail in her experiment and Yog Soggoth will come to this plane anyway with any toys needed?
  • edited June 2010
    Does anyone remember from a tDP trailer way back Papierwaite at a console in Momma Bosco's? Maybe he was pressing the green button! I agree with others on here that have suggested Yog-Soggoth succeeds in entering that reality/plane at the end of 304 due to the icon of 305.
  • edited June 2010
    More significantly Papierwaite was OLD in that trailer like he should be.
  • edited June 2010
    tabstis wrote: »
    More significantly Papierwaite was OLD in that trailer like he should be.

    Are you sure that's not just the smoke?
  • edited June 2010
    This thread needs some serious demon broth. No, not to be discussed about, I mean, it's dying!
  • edited June 2010
    How long do we think until Mr Mike "I've got back into my S&M writing groove" Stemmle starts the Countdown to BtAotD thread?
  • edited June 2010
    Right here's the fuel: Where will the next episode be set then? How will they vary the locations?
  • edited June 2010
    serializer wrote: »
    Giant max asset = max asset scaled up
    What I'm saying is, it's not a new asset.
    Not necessarily. Max blown up to that size would get really blocky (especially around the head), so it wouldn't be a stretch they made a new model that's more suited to be that big without looking bad.
    Of course it's hard to tell by just seeing feet wheter or not they did.
    After all, they already need new animations to go with the big Max, why not create a whole new model while they're at it?
  • edited June 2010
    I think "big Max" is being saved for Episode 5, Sam clones and "Extreme Summoning" are Episode 4.
  • edited June 2010
    splash1 wrote: »
    I think "big Max" is being saved for Episode 5, Sam clones and "Extreme Summoning" are Episode 4.

    Unless it was the giant statue of Max from this last episode, but I'd tend to doubt it/hope not.
    Not necessarily. Max blown up to that size would get really blocky (especially around the head), so it wouldn't be a stretch they made a new model that's more suited to be that big without looking bad.

    Unless they scale everything down around a regular size Max, possibly so his head doesn't pop out the sky dome.
  • edited June 2010
    Few things I'm willing to agree on here:

    The narrator has nothing to do with anything, except narrate.
    Norrington helped Max because his original scheme with Papierwaite got temporarily flushed down the toilet.

    Then some questions that come to mind:

    Norrington and Papierwaite obviously work together and Norrington is the one in command. Is Norrington Yog-Soggoth? And if not, is Yog-Soggoth above Norrington in the chain of command or a powerful "tool" that Norrington and Papierwaite have under their command?

    What is the connection between Yog-Soggoth and Egypt? The tapestry in the museum portrayed Yog-Soggoth in a very unegyptian way. The Toybox is from Egypt and Yog-Soggoth seems to be inside of it.

    And finally, one thing that seems quite obvious is that Skun-ka'pe can't be the source of all this as the Toybox is from the Earth (ancient Egypt to be exact) and was originally used by Sammun-Mak. However Skun-ka'pe could become the main villain if he has a way to bring Papierwaite, Norrington and Yog-Soggoth under his control. Seems unlikely tho since he was only after the toys and had no knowledge of Yog-Soggoth.
  • edited June 2010
    PainDealer wrote: »

    And finally, one thing that seems quite obvious is that Skun-ka'pe can't be the source of all this as the Toybox is from the Earth (ancient Egypt to be exact) and was originally used by Sammun-Mak.

    The toybox crashed from outer space.
  • edited June 2010
    My swiss cheese brain at it again...
  • edited June 2010
    Superball is the main villain.

    He's also the one who sent the letter to Girl Stinky.
  • edited July 2010
    Falanca wrote: »
    Superball is the main villain.

    He's also the one who sent the letter to Girl Stinky.

    Holy crap. I thought that man would have higher standards.
  • edited July 2010
    PainDealer wrote: »
    And finally, one thing that seems quite obvious is that Skun-ka'pe can't be the source of all this as the Toybox is from the Earth (ancient Egypt to be exact) and was originally used by Sammun-Mak. However Skun-ka'pe could become the main villain if he has a way to bring Papierwaite, Norrington and Yog-Soggoth under his control. Seems unlikely tho since he was only after the toys and had no knowledge of Yog-Soggoth.

    Actually, if you click on the Yog-Soggoth tapestry when talking to Sammun-Mak, he'll mention that Yog-Soggoth worshipers have repeatedly tried to steal the Toybox from him.
  • edited July 2010
    I just have a feeling that Dr. Norrington will be the main villain in Episode 304...
  • edited July 2010
    lightingft wrote: »
    I just have a feeling that Dr. Norrington will be the main villain in Episode 304...

    Its possible but when would they reveal his idenitity?
  • edited July 2010
    Avel wrote: »
    Unless they scale everything down around a regular size Max, possibly so his head doesn't pop out the sky dome.
    Soooooo.... instead of one set of new animations they need to make several for all tiny people (since they would look weird with their regular size ones). That seems, more inefficient.
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