Sorry I was confusing. I didn't want to use some one famous originally because then some one would know what was going on early on.
So, let me get this straight. Girl A's a man (who dresses up as a girl) and Girl B's a man who had operation to be a 'she'? Because you didn't stop being confusing and didn't explain why you were talking about girl A
So, let me get this straight. Girl A's a man (who dresses up as a girl) and Girl B's a man who had operation to be a 'she'? Because you didn't stop being confusing and didn't explain why you were talking about girl A
No, no, stop confusing me too. Girl B is a real girl.
I was feeling lazy and didn't want to be intellectual so I just dropped the link of the famous model as a added bonus to the conversation.
Girl A- we worked through this
Girl B- Is a normal model/ woman model.
Anyway, I suspect there's a flame war that's going to start soon (I mean, you do realize what hell you're about to unleash? ) so I'm going out of the thread (do not want to participate in all the possible shit).
Well played, doodo!
PS. And I'm still not freaked out that I voted for Girl A
He's a full-fledged 'she' now (aside from the baby-part-question, as I said I don't know if she can have them).
There are also people who are born women and can't have kids, so I don't think that should be such a deciding factor as to whether someone is a female or not.
For the record though, people who have had sex changes can't have kids as their new sex. People who did not go all the way in getting an operation might have kids as their birth sex (so you end up with a man who is pregnant, for instance, because he was born a female and kept his uterus and ovaries).
no freakout here either, I've never equated appreciating a man's looks with being gay
In this case, it's someone who looks like a female, no matter what their sex or gender is. I mean, if you're a gay guy, you're not likely to be attracted to guys who look like girls. You're more likely to be attracted to girls who look like guys, really. People who are attracted to someone because they look like a girl are attracted to girls, whether the person turns out to be a dude or not.
edit: You're attracted to what you're attracted to. The fact that they were born with the wrong parts really don't (or at least shouldn't) mean anything. Transgendered folk are the gender they say they are. They always have been, otherwise they wouldn't have gone down the pretty hefty path they go down (hormones, surgery, that stuff).
In this case, it's someone who looks like a female, no matter what their sex or gender is. I mean, if you're a gay guy, you're not likely to be attracted to guys who look like girls. You're more likely to be attracted to girls who look like guys, really. People who are attracted to someone because they look like a girl are attracted to girls, whether the person turns out to be a dude or not.
Exactly. I mean, I certainly see the pic differently now, but I can still comfortably say "You know what, that's an attractive human being."
edit: You're attracted to what you're attracted to. The fact that they were born with the wrong parts really don't (or at least shouldn't) mean anything. Transgendered folk are the gender they say they are. They always have been, otherwise they wouldn't have gone down the pretty hefty path they go down (hormones, surgery, that stuff).
inb4 transphobia/misunderstandings everywhere.
True, you see some stunning trans ...people (i'm not sure what the "in-term" is at the moment, I think was still using "African American" before Christmas ) but i'd always like to think that there'd still be a masculine air or something to the person that you'd notice after a while that'd make a big difference.
Last thing i'd want is to go out with someone who's like me I guess
So, can we now agree that Girl A is not entirely real ?
Not real because she's pre-op, or because she's post-op?
You know, I think people who dislike piercings and tattoos are more likely to be fine with changes that that deem to have a "purpose", such as surgery that's not just aesthetic but also practical.
(By that, I don't mean "more likely than people who do like piercings" I mean "more likely to be fine with that than with piercings").
Also, I'm using "she" because so far we don't really know what she likes or feels like, but I'd like to point out that lots of guys like to dress up as females and have female persona but still feel like men, or like they have two "sides" to themselves, so dressing up as a female does not mean that girl A is a she inside, either. There are lots of misconceptions about transvestites (that they're secretly gay, that they want to get surgery, that they feel like women) and while all of these do happen (there are drag queen, transgenders and transsexuals) it doesn't mean it's always the case, either. So I wanted to throw that out there as well, there is a broad range and they're not all mashed up into the same.
On the other hand, consider that there's plenty of transgendered people out there who won't feel complete even with all the surgery in the world if they can't get the uterus they'll never have.
However, if what current surgery can achieve is enough for her, then more power to her.
On the other hand, consider that there's plenty of transgendered people out there who won't feel complete even with all the surgery in the world if they can't get the uterus they'll never have.
However, if what current surgery can achieve is enough for her, then more power to her.
Of course. My point was simply that there is a broad range, and, well, you tend to hear more about gay men dressing up as female occasionally, or females born into male bodies (whether they get surgery or not). I just wanted to add that there are also straight men who like to wear female clothes for a variety of reasons, and they're straight, and they're men inside and out. I guess I'm adding that because I've been reading a lot of "my husband likes to wear women's clothes, is he gay/actually a woman?" letters lately, as well as many "I'm afraid my girlfriend/wife will think I'm gay or less of a man if I tell her I like wearing women's clothing" (these letters aren't addressed to me, but to Dan Savage, by the way).
So, I thought I'd throw it out there. There are lots of possibilities, and as much as I want transgendered people to get the respect and understanding they deserve, I also want people to be aware that dressing up as a female doesn't mean you are a female inside necessarily. So check with the people concerned before assuming stuff, as they're the one who will know.
If girl a is a transwoman, then she's a goddamn woman. Just as "real" as any other woman.
Not in my eyes, sorry. Maybe i'm a horrible biggot but there's no escaping Mother Nature no matter how much wishful thinking and treatment is involved. You play the cards you're dealt on some level.
No ill wishes or malice obv, but if you're born a bloke i'm gonna think of you as one (assuming I know of course)
I voted for Girl A. Girl B is obviously airbrushed and all that, and girls who take that much time to look like she does are often very shallow. (Also, I've heard that the point of wearing makeup is to appear as though you're not/barely wearing any makeup at all, and Girl B doesn't seem to grasp this concept.)
Girl A looks more real/natural, and is therefore more appealing. Nevermind the pink hair.
Not in my eyes, sorry. Maybe i'm a horrible biggot but there's no escaping Mother Nature no matter how much wishful thinking and treatment is involved. You play the cards you're dealt on some level.
No ill wishes or malice obv, but if you're born a bloke i'm gonna think of you as one (assuming I know of course)
As I've learned from Giant Topiary, there is a difference between "sex" and "gender". Girl A may be a "male" but she is still a "girl." "Sex" is physical, mother nature, "gender" is psychological, what you say/act like you are.
For example, I am a male man. Girl A is a male girl. Girl B is (I assume) a female girl, and Fawful is a male pig.
Sorry, but the whole difference-between-sex-and-gender thing is just crazy to me really. I mean, I'm all for trying to understand where people are coming from, but seriously. If you're a guy, then you're a guy. You might be highly effeminate, you might be gay, you might be both... but you're still a guy. Now, if there was an entire operation involved where sexual organs are changed and stuff, then maybe.
But I don't know. Call me insensitive, but the idea of kissing Girl A only to find out that she's a guy just... makes my skin crawl.
Sorry, but the whole difference-between-sex-and-gender thing is just crazy to me really. I mean, I'm all for trying to understand where people are coming from, but seriously. If you're a guy, then you're a guy. You might be highly effeminate, you might be gay, you might be both... but you're still a guy. Now, if there was an entire operation involved where sexual organs are changed and stuff, then maybe.
That's exactly what I said, but we are putting two words together that aren't synonymous. We do that often, clump words that don't go together; happiness and entertainment, boredom and tiredness, random and unexpected. We use them interchangeably, but that's not how it was intended. Psychologically, meaning what you perceive of as yourself, you are a guy or a girl. Sex is physical (Teehee). Of course, the word is defined by how people use it, so maybe 'gender' has become 'sex'. This could be very likely. Words only mean what people know and use them to mean. Maybe we need a new word for 'gender.' But until that happens, and as long as the dictionary says so, gender is not sex.
You don't have to be fine with being in a relationship with a trans person as long as you're honest about it. As hurtful as it might be for them, well it's good for them to be warned. And I think it would be only fair of them to warn potential partners, because if the partners find out later that could be pretty bad.
Sure, it shouldn't matter, I see where they're coming from about that, but to a lot of people it does, and hiding something important about yourself (and
gender re-assignment is something major) isn't such a great idea.
For the record, I'm more likely to have sex with a pre-op MTF than a pre-op FTM (even the ones who otherwise completely look like a guy such as porn star Buck Angel for instance). I would say that sex matters more to me than gender does, but even that isn't really true since Buck isn't just a guy inside, he's a guy outside too for all purposes apart from his genitals. So I guess I care about genitals more than the rest? That sounds pretty bad. Although since I'm talking about sex, I guess that's fairly normal?
To be fair, I don't think I'd be 100% fine with the breasts, female figure and general and so on, but I could get past it way more easily than getting past female parts where I'd like to see male ones.
Either way, it probably wouldn't work. I don't think a pre-op woman would appreciate the fact that I like her for a body part she probably hates about herself.
You don't have to be fine with being in a relationship with a trans person as long as you're honest about it. As hurtful as it might be for them, well it's good for them to be warned. And I think it would be only fair of them to warn potential partners, because if the partners find out later that could be pretty bad.
Sure, it shouldn't matter, I see where they're coming from about that, but to a lot of people it does, and hiding something important about yourself (and
gender re-assignment is something major) isn't such a great idea.
For the record, I'm more likely to have sex with a pre-op MTF than a pre-op FTM (even the ones who otherwise completely look like a guy such as porn star Buck Angel for instance). I would say that sex matters more to me than gender does, but even that isn't really true since Buck isn't just a guy inside, he's a guy outside too for all purposes apart from his genitals. So I guess I care about genitals more than the rest? That sounds pretty bad. Although since I'm talking about sex, I guess that's fairly normal?
To be fair, I don't think I'd be 100% fine with the breasts, female figure and general and so on, but I could get past it way more easily than getting past female parts where I'd like to see male ones.
Either way, it probably wouldn't work. I don't think a pre-op woman would appreciate the fact that I like her for a body part she probably hates about herself.
I get into the weirdest tangents, don't I?
Lots of preop women don't want to get the surgery.
Also, people can't pretend as if genitals aren't important. If someone perceives something to be too far unnatural then of course they're likely to withdraw.
As I've learned from Giant Topiary, there is a difference between "sex" and "gender". Girl A may be a "male" but she is still a "girl." "Sex" is physical, mother nature, "gender" is psychological, what you say/act like you are.
For example, I am a male man. Girl A is a male girl. Girl B is (I assume) a female girl, and Fawful is a male pig.
I have issue with that definition. Thinking myself to be something doesn't make me something. Even in the construction of the brain, basic elements of how the brain developed do not match up from a woman to a trans woman. Development in uterus, chemical elements that influenced a lifetime of perceptions, things of that nature.
I have issue with that definition. Thinking myself to be something doesn't make me something. Even in the construction of the brain, basic elements of how the brain developed do not match up from a woman to a trans woman. Development in uterus, chemical elements that influenced a lifetime of perceptions, things of that nature.
You're not saying "I have a penis." You're saying "I am a man." I am happy. I am nice. I am funny. I am the man. I'm not saying what I am physically, I'm describing myself.
In my opinion, saying "I am a man" is/should be the same as saying "I have a penis." I mean, who the heck wouldn't initially infer that you have one if you said you were a man, requiring you to go out of your way to explain otherwise? If you look like a woman yet say you're a man, then a lot of confusion arises and people look at you funny, since the mass majority of the populous would... *sigh* equate your sex and gender of being the same thing.
For myself, if you say "I am a man" then, I immediately assume you were born with male parts. If you say "I used to be a man," to me you still are, you're just highly confused about it and wish you weren't, probably as a result of some trauma in your past.
You're playing semantics here, where I see it as a rather simple issue that is being over-complicated. In conversation, so many people immediately assume that ones declared sex and gender are the same thing, that in effect they are the same thing, and if not they should be.
In my opinion, saying "I am a man" is/should be the same as saying "I have a penis." I mean, who the heck wouldn't initially infer that you have one if you said you were a man, requiring you to go out of your way to explain otherwise?
If you say "I am a man" then, I immediately assume you were born with male parts. If you say "I used to be a man," to me you still are, you're just highly confused about it and wish you weren't, probably as a result of some trauma in your past.
It's just too bad the world isn't run on opinions. Just because something is commonly believed, it doesn't make it true.
But language itself is fluid and changing, so if enough people define gender as being synonymous with sex, then at some point, it is.
It's like saying "technically the word 'decimate' means killing off 10%," but my New Oxford American Dictionary says that that is only the historical definition, while the current definition is to "kill, destroy or remove a large percentage or part of; drastically reduce the effectiveness of"
Language changes over time, so just because you argue over the dictionary definition of the word "gender," that doesn't mean what you define it as will always be defined as such. Even if the dictionary currently agrees with you, it doesn't require everyone else in the world to, especially when the dictionary has to be updated every so often to keep up with changes in the perceived meanings of words.
ie. Just because the dictionary defines something, that doesn't write it in stone. A dictionary is a reference for the reflection of a societies current definitions of words. The dictionary itself doesn't set the precedent for what things mean, the intersocial vocabulary does. Therefore, if enough people directly associate sex with gender, then they do mean the same thing because society says so.
But language itself is fluid and changing, so if enough people define gender as being synonymous with sex, then at some point, it is.
It's like saying "technically the word 'decimate' means killing off 10%," but my New Oxford American Dictionary says that that is only the historical definition, while the current definition is to "kill, destroy or remove a large percentage or part of; drastically reduce the effectiveness of"
Language changes over time, so just because you argue over the dictionary definition of the word "gender," that doesn't mean what you define it as will always be defined as such.
Of course, the word is defined by how people use it, so maybe 'gender' has become 'sex'. This could be very likely. Words only mean what people know and use them to mean. Maybe we need a new word for 'gender.' But until that happens, and as long as the dictionary says so, gender is not sex.
Anyway, if Girl A really is a guy, then I want to change my vote to "one more so than the other" or "neither," because I don't hold a lot of interest for shallow-looking women like Girl B.
More modest and less makeup, then sure, but not looking like that.
No problem. I just had this discussion with Tope a while back, and took your side. After doing some looking into it, I found she was right, and continued to tell her she was wrong.
Actually let's take something closer to the human experience. I am a handicapped individual. In order to further this belief I will dry ice my legs until they die.
maybe it's because I know several transfolk, but it really isn't rocket science here. does a trans individual hurt themselves or others by the fact that they are the way they are? no. are they happier they way they've become who they believe to be? 9 times out of 10, yes. i knew a transwoman whom i didn't know was a transwoman until transition, and prior to transition, she was a total douchebag and bitchy all the time. as soon as she started transitioning, she was a much happier and overall nicer individual.
as far as I concerned, a transwoman is a woman and a transman is a man. if you guys weren't told that that an individual was trans, most of you wouldn't even realize it.
There where Sailor Moon characters who could go from male civilian form to female Sailor Senshi form just by using there transformation devise.
I believe in the original Japanese version it's a bio female (not sure if it's a transman or a tomboy female) and that it was changed for the English version, but I'm not a Sailor Moon fan so I can't really be more specific or accurate than this.
Honestly, if someone says they're a man/woman inside, I believe them and treat them that way. I don't think it's a problem. If they have male parts and say "I have female parts" then yeah, it's as wrong as saying "I'm a tree", but gender isn't something physical, it's something psychological. And I strongly believe it's something only the person can decide for themselves, not people around them. If someone was born a man but is a woman inside, that doesn't mean they're not allowed to do things that are stereotypically "men" things. That doesn't make them a man any more than any other woman becomes a woman because she does stereotypically man things.
Sex and gender are complicated issues, in part because of intersex people (and if gender really is about the parts you have, what do you call intersex people, then?) but also because they can seem so subjective. From my point of view I don't even have a gender. If I turned into a male body I would have no problem switching to male pronouns and remaining exactly the same person in every other way. That's because I don't feel like I have a gender at all, I wouldn't have that need to go back to my right body, because either way is just the same for me.
But I figure, since I'm in a female body, sure I'm female, whatever.
That doesn't mean I think the same applies to everyone else. Just like I want people to respect the fact that I feel that way and not tell me I'm wrong ("It's impossible to feel like neither, you feel like a woman, you just don't realise it because you're cisgendered!"), I'm going to respect the fact that things work differently for them. It's not going to change anything for me, I'm not going to treat them differently, because I don't really get gender to begin with, but I'll certainly use the pronouns they want me to use, because it's not like it makes any difference for me.
maybe it's because I know several transfolk, but it really isn't rocket science here. does a trans individual hurt themselves or others by the fact that they are the way they are? no. are they happier they way they've become who they believe to be? 9 times out of 10, yes. i knew a transwoman whom i didn't know was a transwoman until transition, and prior to transition, she was a total douchebag and bitchy all the time. as soon as she started transitioning, she was a much happier and overall nicer individual.
as far as I concerned, a transwoman is a woman and a transman is a man. if you guys weren't told that that an individual was trans, most of you wouldn't even realize it.
It's not an issue of "hurting" others, but that sexuality is such a core aspect of a person's identity that it's a tough issue to deal with. It's not anywhere near the same thing as talking about whether I like cats or that I voted for Barack Obama. Sexuality is much more a part of who we are, how we see ourselves individually, and how we relate to others. For someone to basically devote such a major part of their life to such a drastic change is bound to unnerve some people, if not most, especially considering societal norms and how such a drastic deviation from understood sexual behaviors in our culture is bound to impact people in a certain way.
So just because I think that it'd be creepy to kiss a girl who turns out really to be a guy, or that "I am male" is/should be an obvious and in no way ambiguous statement, it doesn't make me irrationally fearful or woefully misunderstood about the whole subject.
Comments
So, let me get this straight. Girl A's a man (who dresses up as a girl) and Girl B's a man who had operation to be a 'she'? Because you didn't stop being confusing and didn't explain why you were talking about girl A
No, no, stop confusing me too.
I was feeling lazy and didn't want to be intellectual so I just dropped the link of the famous model as a added bonus to the conversation.
Girl A- we worked through this
Girl B- Is a normal model/ woman model.
Girl in the link is just added for fun.
Anyway, I suspect there's a flame war that's going to start soon (I mean, you do realize what hell you're about to unleash?
Well played, doodo!
PS. And I'm still not freaked out that I voted for Girl A
You probably meant "girl" there?
There are also people who are born women and can't have kids, so I don't think that should be such a deciding factor as to whether someone is a female or not.
For the record though, people who have had sex changes can't have kids as their new sex. People who did not go all the way in getting an operation might have kids as their birth sex (so you end up with a man who is pregnant, for instance, because he was born a female and kept his uterus and ovaries).
In this case, it's someone who looks like a female, no matter what their sex or gender is. I mean, if you're a gay guy, you're not likely to be attracted to guys who look like girls. You're more likely to be attracted to girls who look like guys, really. People who are attracted to someone because they look like a girl are attracted to girls, whether the person turns out to be a dude or not.
EDIT: this last bit reminds me of this comic.
edit: You're attracted to what you're attracted to. The fact that they were born with the wrong parts really don't (or at least shouldn't) mean anything. Transgendered folk are the gender they say they are. They always have been, otherwise they wouldn't have gone down the pretty hefty path they go down (hormones, surgery, that stuff).
inb4 transphobia/misunderstandings everywhere.
Exactly. I mean, I certainly see the pic differently now, but I can still comfortably say "You know what, that's an attractive human being."
My exact words:
So I was half right.
True, you see some stunning trans ...people (i'm not sure what the "in-term" is at the moment, I think was still using "African American" before Christmas
Last thing i'd want is to go out with someone who's like me I guess
Interesting how the conversation managed to turn to body mods, and nobody managed to hit on the biggest body mod of them all.
That's a attractive dude though...
I'm still not sure what the point of this was...my mind is being utilized in a video game production right now so I can't even make something up...
If girl a is a transwoman, then she's a goddamn woman. Just as "real" as any other woman.
Not real because she's pre-op, or because she's post-op?
You know, I think people who dislike piercings and tattoos are more likely to be fine with changes that that deem to have a "purpose", such as surgery that's not just aesthetic but also practical.
(By that, I don't mean "more likely than people who do like piercings" I mean "more likely to be fine with that than with piercings").
Also, I'm using "she" because so far we don't really know what she likes or feels like, but I'd like to point out that lots of guys like to dress up as females and have female persona but still feel like men, or like they have two "sides" to themselves, so dressing up as a female does not mean that girl A is a she inside, either. There are lots of misconceptions about transvestites (that they're secretly gay, that they want to get surgery, that they feel like women) and while all of these do happen (there are drag queen, transgenders and transsexuals) it doesn't mean it's always the case, either. So I wanted to throw that out there as well, there is a broad range and they're not all mashed up into the same.
However, if what current surgery can achieve is enough for her, then more power to her.
Of course. My point was simply that there is a broad range, and, well, you tend to hear more about gay men dressing up as female occasionally, or females born into male bodies (whether they get surgery or not). I just wanted to add that there are also straight men who like to wear female clothes for a variety of reasons, and they're straight, and they're men inside and out. I guess I'm adding that because I've been reading a lot of "my husband likes to wear women's clothes, is he gay/actually a woman?" letters lately, as well as many "I'm afraid my girlfriend/wife will think I'm gay or less of a man if I tell her I like wearing women's clothing" (these letters aren't addressed to me, but to Dan Savage, by the way).
So, I thought I'd throw it out there. There are lots of possibilities, and as much as I want transgendered people to get the respect and understanding they deserve, I also want people to be aware that dressing up as a female doesn't mean you are a female inside necessarily. So check with the people concerned before assuming stuff, as they're the one who will know.
Dose a person with estrogen, get facial adjustments, etc etc. Nothing to see here really.
Not in my eyes, sorry. Maybe i'm a horrible biggot but there's no escaping Mother Nature no matter how much wishful thinking and treatment is involved. You play the cards you're dealt on some level.
No ill wishes or malice obv, but if you're born a bloke i'm gonna think of you as one (assuming I know of course)
Girl A looks more real/natural, and is therefore more appealing. Nevermind the pink hair.
As I've learned from Giant Topiary, there is a difference between "sex" and "gender". Girl A may be a "male" but she is still a "girl." "Sex" is physical, mother nature, "gender" is psychological, what you say/act like you are.
For example, I am a male man. Girl A is a male girl. Girl B is (I assume) a female girl, and Fawful is a male pig.
Sorry, but the whole difference-between-sex-and-gender thing is just crazy to me really. I mean, I'm all for trying to understand where people are coming from, but seriously. If you're a guy, then you're a guy. You might be highly effeminate, you might be gay, you might be both... but you're still a guy. Now, if there was an entire operation involved where sexual organs are changed and stuff, then maybe.
But I don't know. Call me insensitive, but the idea of kissing Girl A only to find out that she's a guy just... makes my skin crawl.
That's exactly what I said, but we are putting two words together that aren't synonymous. We do that often, clump words that don't go together; happiness and entertainment, boredom and tiredness, random and unexpected. We use them interchangeably, but that's not how it was intended. Psychologically, meaning what you perceive of as yourself, you are a guy or a girl. Sex is physical (Teehee). Of course, the word is defined by how people use it, so maybe 'gender' has become 'sex'. This could be very likely. Words only mean what people know and use them to mean. Maybe we need a new word for 'gender.' But until that happens, and as long as the dictionary says so, gender is not sex.
Sure, it shouldn't matter, I see where they're coming from about that, but to a lot of people it does, and hiding something important about yourself (and
gender re-assignment is something major) isn't such a great idea.
For the record, I'm more likely to have sex with a pre-op MTF than a pre-op FTM (even the ones who otherwise completely look like a guy such as porn star Buck Angel for instance). I would say that sex matters more to me than gender does, but even that isn't really true since Buck isn't just a guy inside, he's a guy outside too for all purposes apart from his genitals. So I guess I care about genitals more than the rest? That sounds pretty bad. Although since I'm talking about sex, I guess that's fairly normal?
To be fair, I don't think I'd be 100% fine with the breasts, female figure and general and so on, but I could get past it way more easily than getting past female parts where I'd like to see male ones.
Either way, it probably wouldn't work. I don't think a pre-op woman would appreciate the fact that I like her for a body part she probably hates about herself.
I get into the weirdest tangents, don't I?
Lots of preop women don't want to get the surgery.
Also, people can't pretend as if genitals aren't important. If someone perceives something to be too far unnatural then of course they're likely to withdraw.
I have issue with that definition. Thinking myself to be something doesn't make me something. Even in the construction of the brain, basic elements of how the brain developed do not match up from a woman to a trans woman. Development in uterus, chemical elements that influenced a lifetime of perceptions, things of that nature.
You're not saying "I have a penis." You're saying "I am a man." I am happy. I am nice. I am funny. I am the man. I'm not saying what I am physically, I'm describing myself.
In my opinion, saying "I am a man" is/should be the same as saying "I have a penis." I mean, who the heck wouldn't initially infer that you have one if you said you were a man, requiring you to go out of your way to explain otherwise? If you look like a woman yet say you're a man, then a lot of confusion arises and people look at you funny, since the mass majority of the populous would... *sigh* equate your sex and gender of being the same thing.
For myself, if you say "I am a man" then, I immediately assume you were born with male parts. If you say "I used to be a man," to me you still are, you're just highly confused about it and wish you weren't, probably as a result of some trauma in your past.
You're playing semantics here, where I see it as a rather simple issue that is being over-complicated. In conversation, so many people immediately assume that ones declared sex and gender are the same thing, that in effect they are the same thing, and if not they should be.
It's just too bad the world isn't run on opinions. Just because something is commonly believed, it doesn't make it true.
It's like saying "technically the word 'decimate' means killing off 10%," but my New Oxford American Dictionary says that that is only the historical definition, while the current definition is to "kill, destroy or remove a large percentage or part of; drastically reduce the effectiveness of"
Language changes over time, so just because you argue over the dictionary definition of the word "gender," that doesn't mean what you define it as will always be defined as such. Even if the dictionary currently agrees with you, it doesn't require everyone else in the world to, especially when the dictionary has to be updated every so often to keep up with changes in the perceived meanings of words.
ie. Just because the dictionary defines something, that doesn't write it in stone. A dictionary is a reference for the reflection of a societies current definitions of words. The dictionary itself doesn't set the precedent for what things mean, the intersocial vocabulary does. Therefore, if enough people directly associate sex with gender, then they do mean the same thing because society says so.
I already mentioned this.
My bad then.
Anyway, if Girl A really is a guy, then I want to change my vote to "one more so than the other" or "neither," because I don't hold a lot of interest for shallow-looking women like Girl B.
More modest and less makeup, then sure, but not looking like that.
No problem. I just had this discussion with Tope a while back, and took your side. After doing some looking into it, I found she was right, and continued to tell her she was wrong.
Actually let's take something closer to the human experience. I am a handicapped individual. In order to further this belief I will dry ice my legs until they die.
oh hey look woah i was right
maybe it's because I know several transfolk, but it really isn't rocket science here. does a trans individual hurt themselves or others by the fact that they are the way they are? no. are they happier they way they've become who they believe to be? 9 times out of 10, yes. i knew a transwoman whom i didn't know was a transwoman until transition, and prior to transition, she was a total douchebag and bitchy all the time. as soon as she started transitioning, she was a much happier and overall nicer individual.
as far as I concerned, a transwoman is a woman and a transman is a man. if you guys weren't told that that an individual was trans, most of you wouldn't even realize it.
I believe in the original Japanese version it's a bio female (not sure if it's a transman or a tomboy female) and that it was changed for the English version, but I'm not a Sailor Moon fan so I can't really be more specific or accurate than this.
Honestly, if someone says they're a man/woman inside, I believe them and treat them that way. I don't think it's a problem. If they have male parts and say "I have female parts" then yeah, it's as wrong as saying "I'm a tree", but gender isn't something physical, it's something psychological. And I strongly believe it's something only the person can decide for themselves, not people around them. If someone was born a man but is a woman inside, that doesn't mean they're not allowed to do things that are stereotypically "men" things. That doesn't make them a man any more than any other woman becomes a woman because she does stereotypically man things.
Sex and gender are complicated issues, in part because of intersex people (and if gender really is about the parts you have, what do you call intersex people, then?) but also because they can seem so subjective. From my point of view I don't even have a gender. If I turned into a male body I would have no problem switching to male pronouns and remaining exactly the same person in every other way. That's because I don't feel like I have a gender at all, I wouldn't have that need to go back to my right body, because either way is just the same for me.
But I figure, since I'm in a female body, sure I'm female, whatever.
That doesn't mean I think the same applies to everyone else. Just like I want people to respect the fact that I feel that way and not tell me I'm wrong ("It's impossible to feel like neither, you feel like a woman, you just don't realise it because you're cisgendered!"), I'm going to respect the fact that things work differently for them. It's not going to change anything for me, I'm not going to treat them differently, because I don't really get gender to begin with, but I'll certainly use the pronouns they want me to use, because it's not like it makes any difference for me.
It's not an issue of "hurting" others, but that sexuality is such a core aspect of a person's identity that it's a tough issue to deal with. It's not anywhere near the same thing as talking about whether I like cats or that I voted for Barack Obama. Sexuality is much more a part of who we are, how we see ourselves individually, and how we relate to others. For someone to basically devote such a major part of their life to such a drastic change is bound to unnerve some people, if not most, especially considering societal norms and how such a drastic deviation from understood sexual behaviors in our culture is bound to impact people in a certain way.
So just because I think that it'd be creepy to kiss a girl who turns out really to be a guy, or that "I am male" is/should be an obvious and in no way ambiguous statement, it doesn't make me irrationally fearful or woefully misunderstood about the whole subject.