Uh no. The scene with Jabba was never in any version of Star Wars prior to 1997. And yes it was shown a lot throughout the late '70's and early '80s but never were they altered (other than the scroll in '81) between theatrical releases.
It comes down to you being a extremist and wanting the original prints in cell frames enlarged hanging above your toilet....and across from the toilet....
I'm fine with my copies, but I guess I'm just a sale out or supporting Lucas's evil ways.
You really take this all too seriously, but you're a film buff, probably in film or college ed film. That's fine.
I don't care anymore, I guess I'm off this particular subject.
I think my copies are fine.
People act like this movie is the holy bible...
Well maybe it is to some of you. I guess I'm not a true fan boy after all, all these years I've liked my VHS and DVD copies.
Oh well, I can appreciate your higher understanding of film quality and all of that...
I have all the original 3 on DVD and that's good enough for me.
BUT I never knelt by my bed side and prayed for the originals in upgraded bluray. Maybe I should, maybe that isn't such a bad idea, Star Wars on bluray...
I'm sorry but where are these personal attacks coming from all of a sudden? I have never once made any claim against you or your love of Star Wars. All I've been doing in this thread is illustrating the importance of preserving the films in their original form and how easily it could be done if Lucas wanted to.
I'm sorry but where are these personal attacks coming from all of a sudden? I have never once made any claim against you or your love of Star Wars. All I've been doing in this thread is illustrating the importance of preserving the films in their original form and how easily it could be done if Lucas wanted to.
Very mature of you, my juvenile twisted side is struggling to play Hyde on me.
I'm bored, I'm injured and some times I'm just a idiot. I'm sorry man, some times I just cut loose. I apologize, you're alright. I wish I had been born in the 70s or sooner.
I wasn't really making fun of anyone. On a good day I respect most people and their opinions, values, on a good day. I do...but today I'm just distracted and loopy. I think it's just a combination of things that have been going on.
BACK ON TOPIC, I agree with you. I know how crazy that sounds, after all of this, but I agree with you. It still annoys me to see people complaining about something that is done in the way it was done.
This is a reality of variation, and yes, it would AWESOME to have the originals on blue ray. I agree, honestly.
But this wasn't meant to be that, and people might be upset, but honestly I never expected lucas to do that. So I never had those expectations, as for the changes he made, yeah he did that...that was the idea behind it all.
The real argument you guys have here, in my opinion, that I respect , is that there is no blu ray release of the original copies.
And I've been stupid, because I'm twisted some times, but I can see, appreciate that.
This thread was just too easy, and silly from the get go though.
I mean what's it called, Special edition on Blue Ray? At any rate, that's what Lucas does, it's sort of expected.
The idea that LucasFilm "Taped Over" the original films is, at best, a PR smokescreen based on carefully chosen wording meant to obscure the issue. At the VERY WORST, something that is highly unlikely, they'd have to scan in an original 35mm theatrical print that exists in many private collections. Far more likely is that, following normal standards for film preservation that all studios use, they have a very close generational copy of the film, even if the "original" original negative is destroyed, in cold storage. They damn near have to have not just one but several copies of the original negative in pristine condition that could be easily, at the lowest amount of effort, be simply run through a machine that they already own to make tons of people happy. There are films that are EXTREMELY niche in appeal that are getting far better treatments than the original Star Wars theatrical cuts, and the budget allocated to their release is many orders of magnitude lower. The ONLY reason we do not have a pristine copy of the original films, at this point, is sheer and childish spite by Lucas.
The copyright holders, so far, have not been completely diligent in preserving the original negatives of films they control. In order to reconstruct old negatives, many archivists have had to go to Eastern bloc countries where American films have been better preserved.
In the future it will become even easier for old negatives to become lost and be "replaced" by new altered negatives. This would be a great loss to our society. Our cultural history must not be allowed to be rewritten.
I deserve to be wrong,I've been a clown, playing games with people. I still say that's the most interesting subject in here, that's the slightly sane part of me speaking.
Seriously I was being a idiot, no one in here is old, everyone has be born at some time, everyone has peers their age.
I was just being a idiot. A young punk...I was joking...sometimes I just go bat sh(t crazy...
I do care about Star Wars. I love Star Wars. However, I respect the filmmaker's opinion if he thinks things need to be changed and therefore any new cuts are superior.
Yes. It's his film, and I won't disagree with the filmmaker.
If you want to follow Lucas to the ends of the earth like a sheep crying out to the world that he can do no wrong then you're welcome to. But that doesn't mean that everyone should share that opinion. Indeed, not everyone does. Don't try to tell me that that standpoint for me personally is a ridiculous one to have, because I could say the same thing about you. I just want to watch the original films in HD that I first saw as a child. Lucas is destroying my personal memories of the film by rewriting everything and not including the originals.
I will not buy this collection. I still have my THX VHS release of the original trilogy recorded to DVD....but it's fullscreen, unfortunately. And the theatrical versions that were released in 2006 are in worse quality than my VHS-to-DVD conversion!
I guess releasing a version of Star Wars that was TOO good, would mean no-one would buy that next SUPERMEGAULTRA edition that would come out in the next few years! XD
Mr Lucas wants to keep those originals as a last resort! XD
My brother and I had this conversation and I said the triology is Luca's and he said, no Lucas believes the trilogy is his. I thought that was interesting.
I was saying for 20 years the franchise has been his, and he's done whatever he wants with it, releasing special editions and he said for 20 years he's believed the franchise was his ,and it's the people.
As fans we both want to see the new versions, just to laugh. We love laughing at them or enjoying them for what is good, different.
I still stand by my statements; every change he's made has been for the better, in his eyes, and therefore we shouldn't be asking 'why did you change it' but rather 'why didn't you have it like this last time'.
Well that goes back to the main fan boy argument. Who's is it really?
Ours or his?
I understand one argument, and that's that he didn't direct Return of the Jedi so it isn't his right to change it. That's about the only arguement I feel has legitimate backing.
I understand one argument, and that's that he didn't direct Return of the Jedi so it isn't his right to change it. That's about the only arguement I feel has legitimate backing.
The problem is, that as much as vocal as those that really hate these changes are, these re-releases still rack in zillions of dollars hand over fist. I for one am not going to buy 'em, but I'm sure everyone else in the entire world will. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go see if anyone on my Facebook has the equipment to transfer VHS to DVD.
@Ribs, it's not a question of whether he owns the copyright.
He created a universe in which many people around the world have become highly fascinated and have invested quite a bit of their attention, money and interest in. They care about Star Wars. They care about the characters. They care about showing it the proper respect that it deserves as a result of gaining such a great impact on our culture, on filmmaking and on our very lives.
We question George Lucas' competence. You say that because he is the filmmaker, he by definition is infallible and that, no matter what effect it will have on the thousands (and possibly more) of people who have invested so much interest in the franchise, he can do whatever he wants and the rest of the world be damned for not agreeing with him.
He does not show Star Wars the respect it is due. All he cares about at this point is making money, and I suspect that Dashing is right that he has heard enough people criticize his work that he is quite likely deliberately withholding the release of an HD original version of the OT just to spite those critics.
@Ribs, it's not a question of whether he owns the copyright.
He created a universe in which many people around the world have become highly fascinated and have invested quite a bit of their attention, money and interest in. They care about Star Wars. They care about the characters. They care about showing it the proper respect that it deserves as a result of gaining such a great impact on our culture, on filmmaking and on our very lives.
We question George Lucas' competence. You say that because he is the filmmaker, he by definition is infallible and that, no matter what effect it will have on the thousands (and possibly more) of people who have invested so much interest in the franchise, he can do whatever he wants and the rest of the world be damned for not agreeing with him.
He does not show Star Wars the respect it is due. All he cares about at this point is making money, and I suspect that Dashing is right that he has heard enough people criticize his work that he is quite likely deliberately withholding the release of an HD original version of the OT just to spite those critics.
It wasn't about the copyright, either. He does own the rights to that. The guy I was arguing with was talking about how it isn't morally right to change another man's work, especially in a case like Empire where it may in fact be their best film ever.
I think at its core, this isn't an argument about ownership, it's an argument about which version is the "real" one.
There is no "real" version. All these versions exist, and will keep existing (or at the very least, they will keep having existed), and anyone may have any of them as their favourite. The fact that a change was made by the author does NOT make that change "right". An author is still a human being with their own opinion, which can change over time, and their own vision, which can change over time. While it can be argued that some things weren't done because they couldn't be done at the time, some others could have been done and were not. Today's Lucas's choice is not more valid because he is more recent. People don't constantly improve, and changing one's mind doesn't always mean changing it for the better.
The original version is a version, and from the second it was released to other people, it became some people's favourite version. Maybe some people would prefer things that were considered but never done and released. It doesn't make them any less valid, either, that they were scraped before the movie was made. It just means they didn't get the exposure necessary for people to defend them.
The man has the right to "correct" what he sees as "mistakes". But it's the kind of thing an author shouldn't fall victim of, I think. Your work is never perfect in your eyes. You always want to change it, improve on it. You need to move on at some point and work on something different. He has the right to go back and change it, but because it already has emotional weight to a lot of people, such retcons are going to affect the fans. Some will be fine with some changes, some will prefer the changes, some will hate them. The more versions there are, the more divided the fanbase can be, because they might prefer any specific version or even some hybrid (liking some changes of a version but not some others).
All of these versions are canon. Saying the latest one is the only true one, or that the earliest one is the only true one, both of these things are wrong. However, you can look at the specific changes, and ask yourself, did it improve on the work or remove from it? A lot of people, most people it seems, believe that the changes made, for the most part, take from the original work. Therefore they don't enjoy it being done to a movie they liked, and being released as the new "only true version". It's not the only true version. It's one version, and an inferior one in their eyes.
Lucas has the right to say each new version is his favourite one so far. But what he's doing is saying "this is now the only version". He doesn't want people to play the other versions. It seems he doesn't want people to like the other versions. What people dislike is not that his opinion differs from theirs, but that he's implying that their opinion is objectively wrong based on the fact that it differs from his.
They're opinions. As long as you back them up, you're entitled to them. But you can't just decide that someone else's opinion is plain wrong, especially when it was your own not too long ago and when, presumably, your latest opinion will soon be one of the ones you disown in a few more years.
Because, you know, he wasn't the only one that worked on the film. We place a lot of emphasis, culturally, on directors and screenplay writers, but he's not the only human being that put work into the film. Are the cast and crew to be discounted entirely? Would it have been the same film if Lucas had full control, but with a completely different set of people cast in the roles and an entirely disparate set of folks, who were not merely Lucas's puppets to be moved about during filming and post-production(excluding the ACTUAL puppets, naturally).
A film of the size of the Star Wars trilogy is NOT a one-man show, it is a collaborative effort by a great number of people. Even if you want to give ownership to the creators rather than the fans, the "creators" in this case is a rather large group whose viewpoints are not necessarily being reflected in these updates. To a certain extent, a director has more control and responsibility over the "overall" feel of the film, but even then, by the time the film is released his job is done.
It wasn't about the copyright, either. He does own the rights to that. The guy I was arguing with was talking about how it isn't morally right to change another man's work, especially in a case like Empire where it may in fact be their best film ever.
I would say that George Lucas doesn't respect the fans with these changes.
You say the fans don't legally own the copyright to Star Wars, so we shouldn't complain.
I say that the fans have invested themselves in it. They have invested their money, time, attention, emotions, memories... to such a degree as to even want to expose their children to the franchise. Our opinions and our feelings about that in which we have invested ourselves do matter. They may not stop Lucas from destroying something wonderful, but they do matter.
It's a dick move to the fans. That's what I say. He should offer both versions. Then I wouldn't say anything. I'd totally buy it and watch it with legitimate interest and compare the two versions because I love that. I'd give him more money than he's asking for now if he offered both versions. That's just the way I am. I like multiple versions. In fact, I've been tempted over the years to buy all the different special editions because each one is slightly different and adds more changes or improves on the changes made beforehand (like the cut scene with Jabba from ANH, the VHS SE had really bad CGI, while the DVD release was improved upon). But simply for the fact that he isn't offering the originals remastered (like everyone else does) I'm not supporting him.
I would say that George Lucas doesn't respect the fans with these changes.
You say the fans don't legally own the copyright to Star Wars, so we shouldn't complain.
I say that the fans have invested themselves in it. They have invested their money, time, attention, emotions, memories... to such a degree as to even want to expose their children to the franchise. Our opinions and our feelings about that in which we have invested ourselves do matter. They may not stop Lucas from destroying something wonderful, but they do matter.
I'm with you on this. Whenever i meet a kid who has never seen the original movies, yes they do exist, I go back and show them the original VHS to show how much the series has evolved with so many changes. What they need to do is have a special viewing of the movie on the disc, they should have the original version, special edition and/or prequel addition all separate on the disc. That way people can watch star wars however they want to.
This thread is a good bonding experience I haven't replied to all the posts but I think if anyone reads this thread even past the silly posts alot of good points were made that favor both sides rather fairly. Nice thread guys, girls...
Because, you know, he wasn't the only one that worked on the film. We place a lot of emphasis, culturally, on directors and screenplay writers, but he's not the only human being that put work into the film. Are the cast and crew to be discounted entirely?
Good point. Except it's actually worse than that. George Lucas only has sole director and screenwriting credit on one of the three original Star Wars films, and that's A New Hope. The Empire Strikes Back was directed by Irvin Kershner, and its screenplay was written by Leigh Brackett and Lawrence Kasdan. Return of the Jedi was directed by Richard Marquand, and George only has partial screenwriting credit (screenplay by Lawrence Kasdan and George Lucas). The only film that he's credit as "writing and directing" is A New Hope, and even then it's not exactly accurate; George's screenplay was significantly touched up by Bill and Gloria Huyck, who went uncredited.
So even if a movie did "belong" solely to the writer and director (which is ludicrous), the Stars Wars films STILL aren't "his" in any sense, aside from the fact that he bought the copyrights from Fox in exchange for distribution rights for the prequels.
I recall in interviews before the prequels came out that Lucas said he probably wouldn't direct them. If he did he'd only do the first one to set the tone for the rest of the two films. He ended up doing all three.
I also recall Spielburg begging Lucas to direct one of them and Lucas wouldn't budge.
I recall in interviews before the prequels came out that Lucas said he probably wouldn't direct them. If he did he'd only do the first one to set the tone for the rest of the two films. He ended up doing all three.
I also recall Spielburg begging Lucas to direct one of them and Lucas wouldn't budge.
Oh yeah the prequels. Any changes confirmed for them. For example recutting and taking out all the stupid political crap? Or maybe re-shoots with dialogue that is watchable? Or maybe delivered differently. (not walking slowly & talking and not sitting and talking shot back to back). Or any change that makes the world look less sterile.
I'll Just stick with Ady's versions I think, his ESB is nearly ready.
Didn't you hear? It won't be out until May next year at least. His father was having major health problems before passing away. He seems to be back on it now, but we've still got a while to wait.
Comments
I'm fine with my copies, but I guess I'm just a sale out or supporting Lucas's evil ways.
You really take this all too seriously, but you're a film buff, probably in film or college ed film. That's fine.
I don't care anymore, I guess I'm off this particular subject.
I think my copies are fine.
People act like this movie is the holy bible...
Well maybe it is to some of you. I guess I'm not a true fan boy after all, all these years I've liked my VHS and DVD copies.
Oh well, I can appreciate your higher understanding of film quality and all of that...
I have all the original 3 on DVD and that's good enough for me.
BUT I never knelt by my bed side and prayed for the originals in upgraded bluray. Maybe I should, maybe that isn't such a bad idea, Star Wars on bluray...
Very mature of you, my juvenile twisted side is struggling to play Hyde on me.
I'm bored, I'm injured and some times I'm just a idiot. I'm sorry man, some times I just cut loose. I apologize, you're alright. I wish I had been born in the 70s or sooner.
I wasn't really making fun of anyone. On a good day I respect most people and their opinions, values, on a good day. I do...but today I'm just distracted and loopy. I think it's just a combination of things that have been going on.
BACK ON TOPIC, I agree with you. I know how crazy that sounds, after all of this, but I agree with you. It still annoys me to see people complaining about something that is done in the way it was done.
This is a reality of variation, and yes, it would AWESOME to have the originals on blue ray. I agree, honestly.
But this wasn't meant to be that, and people might be upset, but honestly I never expected lucas to do that. So I never had those expectations, as for the changes he made, yeah he did that...that was the idea behind it all.
The real argument you guys have here, in my opinion, that I respect , is that there is no blu ray release of the original copies.
And I've been stupid, because I'm twisted some times, but I can see, appreciate that.
This thread was just too easy, and silly from the get go though.
I mean what's it called, Special edition on Blue Ray? At any rate, that's what Lucas does, it's sort of expected.
He doesn't really release the originals anymore.
It's the way it is, but I do see your side.
Seriously I was being a idiot, no one in here is old, everyone has be born at some time, everyone has peers their age.
I was just being a idiot. A young punk...I was joking...sometimes I just go bat sh(t crazy...
I too have suspected this.
If you want to follow Lucas to the ends of the earth like a sheep crying out to the world that he can do no wrong then you're welcome to. But that doesn't mean that everyone should share that opinion. Indeed, not everyone does. Don't try to tell me that that standpoint for me personally is a ridiculous one to have, because I could say the same thing about you. I just want to watch the original films in HD that I first saw as a child. Lucas is destroying my personal memories of the film by rewriting everything and not including the originals.
I will not buy this collection. I still have my THX VHS release of the original trilogy recorded to DVD....but it's fullscreen, unfortunately. And the theatrical versions that were released in 2006 are in worse quality than my VHS-to-DVD conversion!
When I saw this, I just sat and thought "Why?"
When I saw this, I lost all faith in any future project involving Star Wars.
Mr Lucas wants to keep those originals as a last resort! XD
EDIT: Also, original versions all the way.
Only one real reason why.
EDIT 2: Actually 2, reasons. I forgot about the whole Jabba thing.
I was saying for 20 years the franchise has been his, and he's done whatever he wants with it, releasing special editions and he said for 20 years he's believed the franchise was his ,and it's the people.
As fans we both want to see the new versions, just to laugh. We love laughing at them or enjoying them for what is good, different.
But, hey, we don't know if we'll pay to see it.
Ours or his?
I understand one argument, and that's that he didn't direct Return of the Jedi so it isn't his right to change it. That's about the only arguement I feel has legitimate backing.
He didn't direct Empire either.
And ironically some people consider it the best one. Personally, I love ANH.
Really? Hm. Someone on some other forum was using that as his primary argument and only mentioned that he didn't direct ROTJ.
He created a universe in which many people around the world have become highly fascinated and have invested quite a bit of their attention, money and interest in. They care about Star Wars. They care about the characters. They care about showing it the proper respect that it deserves as a result of gaining such a great impact on our culture, on filmmaking and on our very lives.
We question George Lucas' competence. You say that because he is the filmmaker, he by definition is infallible and that, no matter what effect it will have on the thousands (and possibly more) of people who have invested so much interest in the franchise, he can do whatever he wants and the rest of the world be damned for not agreeing with him.
He does not show Star Wars the respect it is due. All he cares about at this point is making money, and I suspect that Dashing is right that he has heard enough people criticize his work that he is quite likely deliberately withholding the release of an HD original version of the OT just to spite those critics.
It wasn't about the copyright, either. He does own the rights to that. The guy I was arguing with was talking about how it isn't morally right to change another man's work, especially in a case like Empire where it may in fact be their best film ever.
There is no "real" version. All these versions exist, and will keep existing (or at the very least, they will keep having existed), and anyone may have any of them as their favourite. The fact that a change was made by the author does NOT make that change "right". An author is still a human being with their own opinion, which can change over time, and their own vision, which can change over time. While it can be argued that some things weren't done because they couldn't be done at the time, some others could have been done and were not. Today's Lucas's choice is not more valid because he is more recent. People don't constantly improve, and changing one's mind doesn't always mean changing it for the better.
The original version is a version, and from the second it was released to other people, it became some people's favourite version. Maybe some people would prefer things that were considered but never done and released. It doesn't make them any less valid, either, that they were scraped before the movie was made. It just means they didn't get the exposure necessary for people to defend them.
The man has the right to "correct" what he sees as "mistakes". But it's the kind of thing an author shouldn't fall victim of, I think. Your work is never perfect in your eyes. You always want to change it, improve on it. You need to move on at some point and work on something different. He has the right to go back and change it, but because it already has emotional weight to a lot of people, such retcons are going to affect the fans. Some will be fine with some changes, some will prefer the changes, some will hate them. The more versions there are, the more divided the fanbase can be, because they might prefer any specific version or even some hybrid (liking some changes of a version but not some others).
All of these versions are canon. Saying the latest one is the only true one, or that the earliest one is the only true one, both of these things are wrong. However, you can look at the specific changes, and ask yourself, did it improve on the work or remove from it? A lot of people, most people it seems, believe that the changes made, for the most part, take from the original work. Therefore they don't enjoy it being done to a movie they liked, and being released as the new "only true version". It's not the only true version. It's one version, and an inferior one in their eyes.
Lucas has the right to say each new version is his favourite one so far. But what he's doing is saying "this is now the only version". He doesn't want people to play the other versions. It seems he doesn't want people to like the other versions. What people dislike is not that his opinion differs from theirs, but that he's implying that their opinion is objectively wrong based on the fact that it differs from his.
They're opinions. As long as you back them up, you're entitled to them. But you can't just decide that someone else's opinion is plain wrong, especially when it was your own not too long ago and when, presumably, your latest opinion will soon be one of the ones you disown in a few more years.
Why does Lucas get 100% say?
Because, you know, he wasn't the only one that worked on the film. We place a lot of emphasis, culturally, on directors and screenplay writers, but he's not the only human being that put work into the film. Are the cast and crew to be discounted entirely? Would it have been the same film if Lucas had full control, but with a completely different set of people cast in the roles and an entirely disparate set of folks, who were not merely Lucas's puppets to be moved about during filming and post-production(excluding the ACTUAL puppets, naturally).
A film of the size of the Star Wars trilogy is NOT a one-man show, it is a collaborative effort by a great number of people. Even if you want to give ownership to the creators rather than the fans, the "creators" in this case is a rather large group whose viewpoints are not necessarily being reflected in these updates. To a certain extent, a director has more control and responsibility over the "overall" feel of the film, but even then, by the time the film is released his job is done.
I would say that George Lucas doesn't respect the fans with these changes.
You say the fans don't legally own the copyright to Star Wars, so we shouldn't complain.
I say that the fans have invested themselves in it. They have invested their money, time, attention, emotions, memories... to such a degree as to even want to expose their children to the franchise. Our opinions and our feelings about that in which we have invested ourselves do matter. They may not stop Lucas from destroying something wonderful, but they do matter.
The creator gets to do whatever the hell he wants anyway.
If someone told me my writing suddenly was the property of 'the people' I'd say go to hell.
Blade Runner.
The version I have, has EVERY version of that film.
Everyone gets the version they liked.
(I personally like the Final Cut. That was a movie that had changes made for the better!)
Fuck YES that shit is the shit.
Good point. Except it's actually worse than that. George Lucas only has sole director and screenwriting credit on one of the three original Star Wars films, and that's A New Hope. The Empire Strikes Back was directed by Irvin Kershner, and its screenplay was written by Leigh Brackett and Lawrence Kasdan. Return of the Jedi was directed by Richard Marquand, and George only has partial screenwriting credit (screenplay by Lawrence Kasdan and George Lucas). The only film that he's credit as "writing and directing" is A New Hope, and even then it's not exactly accurate; George's screenplay was significantly touched up by Bill and Gloria Huyck, who went uncredited.
So even if a movie did "belong" solely to the writer and director (which is ludicrous), the Stars Wars films STILL aren't "his" in any sense, aside from the fact that he bought the copyrights from Fox in exchange for distribution rights for the prequels.
I also recall Spielburg begging Lucas to direct one of them and Lucas wouldn't budge.
Never mind, have a clip in the meantime.
Good to know I'm not the only one here who's looking forward to it!
+1.