@Shadowknight1, I think what Joop is referring to about Skyward Sword's linearity is: 1) there is no Hyrule Field to traverse which connects the areas, giving the feeling that you could explore everywhere if only you had the right equipment. Instead the major areas are physically inaccessible (ie. you first don't even know what type of areas they are); and 2) When you go to a place where further progress is blocked, often instead of just having a presently impassable obstacle, you are also notified by Fi that you can't go that way yet.
Also, Nintendo did once give "someone else" the opportunity to make Zelda games and that's where we get the "unholy triforce" of the CD-i from, so truth be told, I don't trust Zelda with anyone but the people who have proved they know what they're doing.
You're wrong about that. For the last time, Nintendo didn't authorize those games. They didn't give the license to Phillips with the intention of them making games out of them. Phillips discovered that they legally owned the rights to make games out of certain Nintendo licenses from when they were still in talks for a CD-ROM drive for the SNES with Nintendo and decided to cash in on it.
Maybe what I should have said is I'd like to see a new developer pick up Zelda who already has a love for the series and can take it in new areas while keeping its core identity intact.
Maybe what I should have said is I'd like to see a new developer pick up Zelda who already has a love for the series and can take it in new areas while keeping its core identity intact.
Yeah, they did good. But it's still more of the same. They basically copied Nintendo's approach (or listened closely to what they wanted). I'm talking about something that would change it up in a much bigger way but still feel like a Zelda game.
Sure, there's always been some linearity in Zelda games. But Skyward Sword to me feels to linear. At least Ocarina of Time, Majora's Mask and the Wind Waker (at least after the first two dungeons) give you the oppertunity to mix things up, you know, do things your way. With Skyward Sword I've got the feeling that the game keeps pushing me to my goals, even though the sidequests are really good and are put in places to change the pace a little bit.
Uhhh...Ocarina of Time? Seriously? The only time that you're allowed any freedom in choosing which dungeon to do next is choosing to do either the Shadow or Spirit Temple first. Majora's Mask is a little bit better, but Tatl still tells you to go to the swamp, or mountains, etc. Wind Waker...that one still has some linearity. Not as bad as the others, but it is there. You basically get to choose whether to do the Earth or Wind Temple before the other. Also, I personally found the lack of a temple or dungeon to get the last pearl really anti-climactic.
Seriously, most of those games, you have to have something from another dungeon in order to progress further.
Also GuruGuru...as great as those games are, I wouldn't want Capcom to be given the reins again. They've done nothing lately that gives me any confidence in them.
Well, you can't really blame Capcom's development teams for decisions made by Capcom's higher-ups. Something as high-profile as a Nintendo-licensed Zelda game wouldn't be subject to most of the issues that have been giving them bad press lately. I'd love to see a 2D Zelda with the cleverness of Minish Cap done in HD, but I suppose that's a pipe dream.
Also I think with linearity, it's more about the game creating the illusion that players can go wherever they want, and then making the player feel like they're making the right choices on their own... and neither TP nor SS are particularly good at that, but that hand-holding syndrome is basically industry-wide right now.
And frankly the idea of a really bold reinvention of the Zelda series is rather unsettling to me. I enjoy the familiarity of the structure and I don't mind these incremental changes that each game makes, but I worry that a huge change in that structure would make it tough to maintain the Zelda feel. One drastically changed element at a time is probably enough.
Nope. The closest thing to it would be flying around in the sky, as that is how you access the three major overworld areas of the game. Think of the sky in Skyward Sword like a more compact (ie. more quickly traversable) version of the sea from Wind Waker, where the rest of the world is accessible through warp points (of a sort; they're actually openings in the clouds) at certain places on the map. Until each point is discovered, you have no idea that the corresponding area even exists or what climate it is.
The difference between the sea from WW and the sky from SS is that your bird in the sky is paying attention to your controller angle, while your boat on the sea would just keep going in the same direction until it went off the map or hit something. Certainly the sky isn't nearly as large, but I found myself wanting not to have to babysit my bird's movements.
Nope. The closest thing to it would be flying around in the sky, as that is how you access the three major overworld areas of the game. Think of the sky in Skyward Sword like a more compact (ie. more quickly traversable) version of the sea from Wind Waker, where the rest of the world is accessible through warp points (of a sort; they're actually openings in the clouds) at certain places on the map. Until each point is discovered, you have no idea that the corresponding area even exists or what climate it is.
The difference between the sea from WW and the sky from SS is that your bird in the sky is paying attention to your controller angle, while your boat on the sea would just keep going in the same direction until it went off the map or hit something. Certainly the sky isn't nearly as large, but I found myself wanting not to have to babysit my bird's movements.
Though, in a way, each section can almost be equated to a small Hyrule Field.
And I honestly prefer the flying to the sailing. Just preference, I suppose.
Though, in a way, each section can almost be equated to a small Hyrule Field.
Agreed. Each major area is so dang large, and full of obstacles to traverse, that I can go along with that. I just kinda wish the whole world felt more connected.
@Shadowknight1, I think what Joop is referring to about Skyward Sword's linearity is: 1) there is no Hyrule Field to traverse which connects the areas, giving the feeling that you could explore everywhere if only you had the right equipment. Instead the major areas are physically inaccessible (ie. you first don't even know what type of areas they are); and 2) When you go to a place where further progress is blocked, often instead of just having a presently impassable obstacle, you are also notified by Fi that you can't go that way yet.
Thanks Chyron, that's exactly what I mean.
I was wondering how you people feel about my last point, that Nintendo puts those helping hands in the games, like special power ups if you can't beat a level.
Finished Majora's Mask. I almost screwed up and had to add an extra trip back in time. I was at the end of the Anju and Kafei quest, ready to go into Sakon's hideout, and I fell off the ledge into the river. By the time I swam around to the dock and ran back, Kafei and Sakon were already gone. I managed to get into the hideout using the roll glitch (and on my second try, too), and luckily, the rest of the sequence played out properly.
And I just realized that the Zelda series came in pairs for the longest time. We had The Legend of Zelda/The Adventure of Link, A Link to the Past/Link's Awakening, Ocarina of Time/Majora's Mask, and Oracle of Ages/Oracle of Seasons. Then Four Swords broke the combo by not having its sequel come out directly after it, and then by having a prequel as well. Then The Wind Waker had three games between itself and its sequel, then it had another sequel. And Twilight Princess is the only orphaned game in the series, if you count Skyward Sword as a direct prequel to Ocarina of Time (which I won't have an opinion on until I own it).
I was wondering how you people feel about my last point, that Nintendo puts those helping hands in the games, like special power ups if you can't beat a level.
That's not exclusive to Nintendo. Sadly, the difficulty of games has declined greatly over the years. It's been a long time since "Nintendo hard" and I really think that the current generation is to blame. That being said, except for Navi and Fi telling you, "Hey, the next place you should go is X," the Zelda series doesn't have that too much, at least as far as making you use the hints. Yes, there are the Sheikah Stones in Ocarina of Time 3D and Skyward Sword, but you can totally ignore the things. Or in the case of the ones in Skyward Sword, whack them with your sword.
GuruGuru, I'm not sure what they could do with a Twilight Princess sequel. Unless the game's going to be Link trying to find a way into the Twilight Realm to see Midna again, I don't see a point.
I didn't say Twilight Princess needed a sequel (or a prequel), I was just commenting on how Twilight Princess is the only game in the series that's not directly connected to another.
That said, now that you bring it up, I could see potential in a game with a much larger portion in the Twilight Realm. I wouldn't want it to be Link trying to find a way back in, but the realm could open by other means (or other hands). I could also see potential in a prequel involving the origin of the Twili, especially if they tied them to Majora's Mask.
And I'm not necessarily saying I want these games to be made, just that I can see where they could make a decent sequel or prequel to Twilight Princess if they wanted to.
That said, now that you bring it up, I could see potential in a game with a much larger portion in the Twilight Realm. I wouldn't want it to be Link trying to find a way back in, but the realm could open by other means (or other hands). I could also see potential in a prequel involving the origin of the Twili, especially if they tied them to Majora's Mask.
Yes! I thought it was very interesting and intriguing how Midna's mask thing looked an awful lot like Majora's. So much lore to consider there! I love how Zelda does that every now and then. Combines aspects of lore from different games which slowly starts showing a bigger picture.
I agree that 2.5D is a term that can rot in hell, but not for the same reason. My problem with it is that spriting is all but dead outside of indie games. I have been dying for a Zero Mission style remake of Metroid II, and now if I'm ever lucky enough to see it happen, it's almost guaranteed to be in 2.5D.
Of course, there's no chance in hell of that, so I guess I shouldn't be worried about it.
I think we can call that at least a partial link fail since I can't see that image on my computer.
I'm still a bit wary of playing either Phantom Hourglass or Spirit Tracks. I'm not too fond of the idea of playing the entire game with a stylus to the screen.
I would say that the Zelda titles with stylus controls aren't bad at all, they're just not what I want. I would definitely encourage you to give them a try, I just wouldn't encourage Nintendo to stick with this model, especially now that they have the slide pad on the 3DS.
Which reminds me, the biggest gripe I had with Ocarina of Time 3D. Everything else was annoyances, but this legitimately pissed me off. The entire game is button based, with the exception of your inventory. They had both the Start and Select buttons to work with, and the inventory can be manipulated with the buttons once you have it open, but you MUST use the stylus to open the inventory, and the Start and Select buttons serve the exact same function and bring you to the save screen. Whenever I played, I would end up with the stylus unextended, gripped in the last three fingers of my right hand, just so I wouldn't have to keep taking it back out.
I would say that the Zelda titles with stylus controls aren't bad at all, they're just not what I want. I would definitely encourage you to give them a try, I just wouldn't encourage Nintendo to stick with this model, especially now that they have the slide pad on the 3DS.
Which reminds me, the biggest gripe I had with Ocarina of Time 3D. Everything else was annoyances, but this legitimately pissed me off. The entire game is button based, with the exception of your inventory. They had both the Start and Select buttons to work with, and the inventory can be manipulated with the buttons once you have it open, but you MUST use the stylus to open the inventory, and the Start and Select buttons serve the exact same function and bring you to the save screen. Whenever I played, I would end up with the stylus unextended, gripped in the last three fingers of my right hand, just so I wouldn't have to keep taking it back out.
Why are you not using your thumb?
And don't dare give me that 'I wanna keep my screen clean' tosh just in case you were about to. Unless you're an exceptionally dirty beast you can always wipe off a few thumbprints.
Yeah I hate touching the screen, but I got over it.
Phantom Hourglass was really enjoyable. The touch controls totally worked for me, and it was especially fun on stuff like the boomerang. I didn't care for Spirit Tracks because it just felt like "let's do Phantom Hourglass again!", which the Zelda series has usually avoided. There might be more variation in the second half, but I lost interest. But I'd definitely recommend Phantom Hourglass to anybody looking for a novel take on the Zelda series, for sure.
Also, I don't know what purpose "a game where you play as Zelda" would serve. I wouldn't be opposed to it, but I'm not feeling the "need" for it.
And don't dare give me that 'I wanna keep my screen clean' tosh just in case you were about to. Unless you're an exceptionally dirty beast you can always wipe off a few thumbprints.
Pretty as it is, with the stylus being placed in the worst spot ever, you will be broken down. You will become a smudgey serf like the rest of us in due time, mark my words.
Or get a screen-protector like shadowknight, best of both worlds.
Pretty as it is, with the stylus being placed in the worst spot ever, you will be broken down. You will become a smudgey serf like the rest of us in due time, mark my words.
Or get a screen-protector like shadowknight, best of both worlds.
Not if you can't put them on without bubbles!
I can live with the stylus positioning. I can live with the crappy battery life. I can even live with the annoying start/select/home buttons (each should take up a third of the section, not the tiny amount they do!), but what I REALLY hate is the stupid short rubber feet on the top screen. My touchscreen marks the top (and has left a visible line which is unremovable, as it is probably a series of fine scratches) and the thumbpad leaves marks too.
I can live with the stylus positioning. I can live with the crappy battery life. I can even live with the annoying start/select/home buttons (each should take up a third of the section, not the tiny amount they do!), but what I REALLY hate is the stupid short rubber feet on the top screen. My touchscreen marks the top (and has left a visible line which is unremovable, as it is probably a series of fine scratches) and the thumbpad leaves marks too.
I can live with the stylus positioning. I can live with the crappy battery life. I can even live with the annoying start/select/home buttons (each should take up a third of the section, not the tiny amount they do!), but what I REALLY hate is the stupid short rubber feet on the top screen. My touchscreen marks the top (and has left a visible line which is unremovable, as it is probably a series of fine scratches) and the thumbpad leaves marks too.
The bubbles would still be a part of the screen that's not being smudged.
As for the second thing, I would really recommend using that little foam thing that was with the 3DS out of the box to keep the screens slightly apart. Also, have you tried electronic cleaning wipes?
I agree that 2.5D is a term that can rot in hell, but not for the same reason. My problem with it is that spriting is all but dead outside of indie games. I have been dying for a Zero Mission style remake of Metroid II, and now if I'm ever lucky enough to see it happen, it's almost guaranteed to be in 2.5D.
Of course, there's no chance in hell of that, so I guess I shouldn't be worried about it.
I was once involved in an ill-fated attempt to remake Metroid II with Metroid Fusion/Zero Mission style sprites. It was called Metroid II Remixed. There was a demo at one point, but then it fell apart. I mainly helped program the UI.
Also, Phantom Hourglass was not fun because combat consisted of tapping the screen until everything died. That is not enjoyable or challenging.
I was once involved in an ill-fated attempt to remake Metroid II with Metroid Fusion/Zero Mission style sprites. It was called Metroid II Remixed. There was a demo at one point, but then it fell apart. I mainly helped program the UI.
Also, Phantom Hourglass was not fun because combat consisted of tapping the screen until everything died. That is not enjoyable or challenging.
But is that much different from just tapping a button until everything dies?
Phantom hourglass was pretty decent for me, but ruined by the temple of the ocean King. Spirit Tracks was a much better game, with my main gripe being the windflute. I find it really dificult to play in time with the later melodies, as it just doesn't seem to pick it up properly. Add that to the fact that the microphone on the 3DS is partially blocked by your hand if you are using the touchscreen and you get frustration!
Comments
You're wrong about that. For the last time, Nintendo didn't authorize those games. They didn't give the license to Phillips with the intention of them making games out of them. Phillips discovered that they legally owned the rights to make games out of certain Nintendo licenses from when they were still in talks for a CD-ROM drive for the SNES with Nintendo and decided to cash in on it.
Maybe what I should have said is I'd like to see a new developer pick up Zelda who already has a love for the series and can take it in new areas while keeping its core identity intact.
Also, no Hyrule Field?
Like Capcom?
Uhhh...Ocarina of Time? Seriously? The only time that you're allowed any freedom in choosing which dungeon to do next is choosing to do either the Shadow or Spirit Temple first. Majora's Mask is a little bit better, but Tatl still tells you to go to the swamp, or mountains, etc. Wind Waker...that one still has some linearity. Not as bad as the others, but it is there. You basically get to choose whether to do the Earth or Wind Temple before the other. Also, I personally found the lack of a temple or dungeon to get the last pearl really anti-climactic.
Seriously, most of those games, you have to have something from another dungeon in order to progress further.
Also GuruGuru...as great as those games are, I wouldn't want Capcom to be given the reins again. They've done nothing lately that gives me any confidence in them.
Also I think with linearity, it's more about the game creating the illusion that players can go wherever they want, and then making the player feel like they're making the right choices on their own... and neither TP nor SS are particularly good at that, but that hand-holding syndrome is basically industry-wide right now.
And frankly the idea of a really bold reinvention of the Zelda series is rather unsettling to me. I enjoy the familiarity of the structure and I don't mind these incremental changes that each game makes, but I worry that a huge change in that structure would make it tough to maintain the Zelda feel. One drastically changed element at a time is probably enough.
Nope. The closest thing to it would be flying around in the sky, as that is how you access the three major overworld areas of the game. Think of the sky in Skyward Sword like a more compact (ie. more quickly traversable) version of the sea from Wind Waker, where the rest of the world is accessible through warp points (of a sort; they're actually openings in the clouds) at certain places on the map. Until each point is discovered, you have no idea that the corresponding area even exists or what climate it is.
The difference between the sea from WW and the sky from SS is that your bird in the sky is paying attention to your controller angle, while your boat on the sea would just keep going in the same direction until it went off the map or hit something. Certainly the sky isn't nearly as large, but I found myself wanting not to have to babysit my bird's movements.
Though, in a way, each section can almost be equated to a small Hyrule Field.
And I honestly prefer the flying to the sailing. Just preference, I suppose.
Agreed. Each major area is so dang large, and full of obstacles to traverse, that I can go along with that. I just kinda wish the whole world felt more connected.
Thanks Chyron, that's exactly what I mean.
I was wondering how you people feel about my last point, that Nintendo puts those helping hands in the games, like special power ups if you can't beat a level.
And I just realized that the Zelda series came in pairs for the longest time. We had The Legend of Zelda/The Adventure of Link, A Link to the Past/Link's Awakening, Ocarina of Time/Majora's Mask, and Oracle of Ages/Oracle of Seasons. Then Four Swords broke the combo by not having its sequel come out directly after it, and then by having a prequel as well. Then The Wind Waker had three games between itself and its sequel, then it had another sequel. And Twilight Princess is the only orphaned game in the series, if you count Skyward Sword as a direct prequel to Ocarina of Time (which I won't have an opinion on until I own it).
Anyway, onward to Oracle of Ages.
That's not exclusive to Nintendo. Sadly, the difficulty of games has declined greatly over the years. It's been a long time since "Nintendo hard" and I really think that the current generation is to blame. That being said, except for Navi and Fi telling you, "Hey, the next place you should go is X," the Zelda series doesn't have that too much, at least as far as making you use the hints. Yes, there are the Sheikah Stones in Ocarina of Time 3D and Skyward Sword, but you can totally ignore the things. Or in the case of the ones in Skyward Sword, whack them with your sword.
GuruGuru, I'm not sure what they could do with a Twilight Princess sequel. Unless the game's going to be Link trying to find a way into the Twilight Realm to see Midna again, I don't see a point.
That said, now that you bring it up, I could see potential in a game with a much larger portion in the Twilight Realm. I wouldn't want it to be Link trying to find a way back in, but the realm could open by other means (or other hands). I could also see potential in a prequel involving the origin of the Twili, especially if they tied them to Majora's Mask.
And I'm not necessarily saying I want these games to be made, just that I can see where they could make a decent sequel or prequel to Twilight Princess if they wanted to.
Yes! I thought it was very interesting and intriguing how Midna's mask thing looked an awful lot like Majora's. So much lore to consider there! I love how Zelda does that every now and then. Combines aspects of lore from different games which slowly starts showing a bigger picture.
How about I amend that. A GOOD game by NINTENDO that you play as Zelda.
Technically 2.5D, considering still 3D models. I wouldn't count those out forever, just not on the big consoles.
2.5D is a term that can rot in the fiery bowels of hell.
2D is defined by the number of directions you are able to move in, not by what method of rendering the game uses.
Of course, there's no chance in hell of that, so I guess I shouldn't be worried about it.
Here you go...
I think we can call that at least a partial link fail since I can't see that image on my computer.
I'm still a bit wary of playing either Phantom Hourglass or Spirit Tracks. I'm not too fond of the idea of playing the entire game with a stylus to the screen.
Which reminds me, the biggest gripe I had with Ocarina of Time 3D. Everything else was annoyances, but this legitimately pissed me off. The entire game is button based, with the exception of your inventory. They had both the Start and Select buttons to work with, and the inventory can be manipulated with the buttons once you have it open, but you MUST use the stylus to open the inventory, and the Start and Select buttons serve the exact same function and bring you to the save screen. Whenever I played, I would end up with the stylus unextended, gripped in the last three fingers of my right hand, just so I wouldn't have to keep taking it back out.
Why are you not using your thumb?
And don't dare give me that 'I wanna keep my screen clean' tosh just in case you were about to. Unless you're an exceptionally dirty beast you can always wipe off a few thumbprints.
Phantom Hourglass was really enjoyable. The touch controls totally worked for me, and it was especially fun on stuff like the boomerang. I didn't care for Spirit Tracks because it just felt like "let's do Phantom Hourglass again!", which the Zelda series has usually avoided. There might be more variation in the second half, but I lost interest. But I'd definitely recommend Phantom Hourglass to anybody looking for a novel take on the Zelda series, for sure.
Also, I don't know what purpose "a game where you play as Zelda" would serve. I wouldn't be opposed to it, but I'm not feeling the "need" for it.
Linebeck was a playa'!
Good call Daishi, good call.
Maybe if this were my DS Lite, but this thing...
...is staying pristine.
Or get a screen-protector like shadowknight, best of both worlds.
I can live with the stylus positioning. I can live with the crappy battery life. I can even live with the annoying start/select/home buttons (each should take up a third of the section, not the tiny amount they do!), but what I REALLY hate is the stupid short rubber feet on the top screen. My touchscreen marks the top (and has left a visible line which is unremovable, as it is probably a series of fine scratches) and the thumbpad leaves marks too.
Anyway, side tracked: Er...
Okami is the best zelda game ever made.
It's overrated.
The bubbles would still be a part of the screen that's not being smudged.
As for the second thing, I would really recommend using that little foam thing that was with the 3DS out of the box to keep the screens slightly apart. Also, have you tried electronic cleaning wipes?
I was once involved in an ill-fated attempt to remake Metroid II with Metroid Fusion/Zero Mission style sprites. It was called Metroid II Remixed. There was a demo at one point, but then it fell apart. I mainly helped program the UI.
Also, Phantom Hourglass was not fun because combat consisted of tapping the screen until everything died. That is not enjoyable or challenging.
Likely the same thing that happened to the fan-made remake of Link's Awakening or any other fan game. Either lost interest or slapped with a C&D.
Phantom hourglass was pretty decent for me, but ruined by the temple of the ocean King. Spirit Tracks was a much better game, with my main gripe being the windflute. I find it really dificult to play in time with the later melodies, as it just doesn't seem to pick it up properly. Add that to the fact that the microphone on the 3DS is partially blocked by your hand if you are using the touchscreen and you get frustration!