Doesn't mean you pull a gun on them! She put a vote to who would stay or not, and she was hypocritical to try to kill him anyway. And in Lilly's case, she tried to kill Carley with no evidence, and it was proved she was innocent
And Kenny does pretty much the same thing with Ben the very next episode at Crawford when he wants Lee to drop Ben (Kenny'll also basically admit that he would have dropped Ben had he been making the call). Hell, that's even a case where the vote can theoretically end up being to keep Ben if you bring Clementine: She votes to keep Ben, Lee can vote to keep Ben, Christa will abstain if Clem's there, with Kenny being the obvious "no" vote. Nevermind the case with Larry if Lee opts to help Lilly try and save him, in that case it's effectively a majority decision to make the attempt and Kenny overrides it anyway.
Really, the choice between Lilly and Kenny really is yet another one that boils down to whether you want your poo sandwich on wheat or whole grain.
That's hardly evidence, it's just assumptions and theories. Now, if the group happened to find some fingerprinting tool-kits or witnesses, then it's a different story...
Maybe one of the group could have been an expert con-man, and waited so long solely to build up trust from the other survivors. Making everyone think you are the least likely candidate creates a perfect opportunity to commit the crime. Unlikely, but could have been possible. People do worse things in the zombie apocalypse.
Ben's apology could have been seen as him apologizing for doing a crappy job on watch and not killing the bandits before they got inside the inn. That IS the purpose of the watch. Since he states that he's deathly afraid of Lilly, it adds up.
First, it's "no evidence", then "hardly evidence". That's shifting the goal posts.
Likewise, by that standard, "Maybe" the sun won't come up tomorrow or gravity will stop doing its thing after I post this because... pickles. Prior trends are evidence. None of the original group members apparently stole anything during the previous time of plenty either (and that was almost certainly a bigger haul, I highly doubt there was enough in the station wagon to keep the group going for three months, afterall).
People tend to forget that even in a modern court of law, the standard is "reasonable doubt" not "all doubt"; stuff like fingerprints tend to actually be pretty rare. It's ridiculous to hold a group of post-apocalyptic survivors to a higher standard than we hold a modern court with all the bells and whistles. People have been convicted with less evidence than what we had against Ben. I wasn't the only one who predicted that Ben was guilty, and the fact that people were able to accurately predict it was Ben is a pretty good indicator there was evidence against him.
I suppose it's based on what an individual perceives as evidence. I know nothing of the modern court system and don't claim to, but regardless of how it works in real life i personally see evidence as physical explanations that prove without a doubt who did what(like security camera footage, for example). In that regard, there was no evidence to indict Ben.
There was also nothing to support the idea that Lilly was willing and able to shoot a member of the group dead(with the sole exception being Kenny), and they were with her for three months, as well. Anyone can change.
I suppose it's based on what an individual perceives as evidence. I know nothing of the modern court system and don't claim to, but regardless of how it works in real life i personally see evidence as physical explanations that prove without a doubt who did what(like security camera footage, for example). In that regard, there was no evidence to indict Ben.
There was also nothing to support the idea that Lilly was willing and able to shoot a member of the group dead(with the sole exception being Kenny), and they were with her for three months, as well. Anyone can change.
Which is an unrealistic and unreasonable standard; by that criteria even an eyewitness wouldn't qualify, nor would a confession, pretty much nothing would. Hell, even your own chosen example of fingerprints wouldn't in this case (or any): afterall, somebody could've planted those fingerprints or deliberately fudged the test - at best, it'd only prove Ben touched the stuff, not that he actually stole it.
There is always a margin of error (however small) when trying to determine what occurred during an event in the past. By definition, that leaves a non-zero amount of doubt in any circumstance. There's a reason the standard is "reasonable doubt", not "all doubt".
By necessity, the harsh reality is that in a post-apocalyptic scenario, justice would become a lot more fast and loose. It's not like today where if somebody steals your food or medicine you can just take a trip to the grocery store or call the pharmacy to request a refill. You can only expend so many man-hours on due process (a multi-month trial is right out). You can't really incarcerate the accused/guilty party for all that long since that's just going to be a non-productive person that's going to be a drain on resources...
It wasn't even close to the same. First off, Lilly killed a member of the group who was INNOCENT. Lilly didnt even kill the one responsible, and even I she did, it wasn't justified. What did Ben really cause by 'stealing supplies'? He gave Kenny enough time to fix up the rv, allowed the group to gain more supplies, and let everyone live longer. Had Lilly not shot up the bandits, a deal would have been made, and they could have snuck out in the middle of the night. Duck wouldn't have been bitten, Kat wouldn't have been injured, and Carley/Doug wouldn't have been shot. I blame Lilly's leadership for the deaths, not Ben.
However, Kenny could blame him for his family's demise. Also for Doug/Carley incident. He was allowed to be mega pissed, he just found out that a kid who was screwing up everything was the culprit. He directly tried to attack Ben out of anger, unlike Lilly who killed like a coward. Kenny never tried again, and actually let people vote. Christa didn't want Ben in the group, and Brie didnt like him either. Kenny obviously didnt want him there. That leaves the vote between you, Clem, and Vernon. Even if you vote for Ben, it's still basically even. Kenny wanted you to kill him, he didnt try himself. He wanted you to drop him to save yourself(it was a risk to pull him up) to keep everyone safe, as Ben was a danger to the group. I can't say it was right, but it's a ZA. Anyway, I never dropped Ben. Kenny is pissed at that at first, but later he realizes it was wrong to want him dead. Lilly simply tried to justify murdering someone. When Kenny tried to kill him, Ben had admitted it directly to him, had been lying to him, and kept quiet about it all that time. Lilly's case was IMO at least 10x worse than if Kenny had in ep 4. But hey, that's just me.
Which is an unrealistic and unreasonable standard; by that criteria even an eyewitness wouldn't qualify, nor would a confession, pretty much nothing would. Hell, even your own chosen example of fingerprints wouldn't in this case (or any): afterall, somebody could've planted those fingerprints or deliberately fudged the test - at best, it'd only prove Ben touched the stuff, not that he actually stole it.
There is always a margin of error (however small) when trying to determine what occurred during an event in the past. By definition, that leaves a non-zero amount of doubt in any circumstance. There's a reason the standard is "reasonable doubt", not "all doubt".
By necessity, the harsh reality is that in a post-apocalyptic scenario, justice would become a lot more fast and loose. It's not like today where if somebody steals your food or medicine you can just take a trip to the grocery store or call the pharmacy to request a refill. You can only expend so many man-hours on due process (a multi-month trial is right out). You can't really incarcerate the accused/guilty party for all that long since that's just going to be a non-productive person that's going to be a drain on resources...
Be that as it may, your original suggestion of "Ben is guilty because he's the most recent addition to the group and he said I'm sorry" is not evidence in any sense of the word, so Lilly did not have anything to support her murder.
Be that as it may, your original suggestion of "Ben is guilty because he's the most recent addition to the group and he said I'm sorry" is not evidence in any sense of the word, so Lilly did not have anything to support her murder.
I agree. It could have meant anything. It could raise suspicion, but is in no way a confession
It wasn't even close to the same. First off, Lilly killed a member of the group who was INNOCENT. Lilly didnt even kill the one responsible, and even I she did, it wasn't justified. What did Ben really cause by 'stealing supplies'? He gave Kenny enough time to fix up the rv, allowed the group to gain more supplies, and let everyone live longer. Had Lilly not shot up the bandits, a deal would have been made, and they could have snuck out in the middle of the night. Duck wouldn't have been bitten, Kat wouldn't have been injured, and Carley/Doug wouldn't have been shot. I blame Lilly's leadership for the deaths, not Ben.
In a given group, long-term; infections due to a lack of antibiotics would almost certainly kill more people than any other cause. It's the one good that can't be replaced. You can hunt for food, you can boil water. A wound gets infected? Pick a fungus, do some praying and hope it works (hint, it probably won't).
And people tend to forget that the group had actually been holding off the bandits for weeks before they happened to stop attacking, Kenny says as much - hell, look at the wall during Lee's investigation. It's covered with arrows and bulletholes. We know they had been making runs into Macon during that time. All Ben's deal did was get the group to lower its guard... as evidenced by the fact Ben was the one on watch when the bandits were finally able to get in in the first place (he failed to notice an entire group of armed people approaching from an elevated position, Carley was able to spot the St. Johns from ground level).
And you assume the raping, murdering bandits would've kept their end. Next thing they could've done before leaving was take Clementine as collateral.
Be that as it may, your original suggestion of "Ben is guilty because he's the most recent addition to the group and he said I'm sorry" is not evidence in any sense of the word, so Lilly did not have anything to support her murder.
And your standards for evidence are basically worthless - they're self-contradictory. What evidence do we have that gravity will keep doing what it's supposed to do, that the Earth will keep rotating? That a video will accurately record an event?
More practically, why do you think repeat offenders get harsher sentences?
Fact is, if one can accurately predict that Ben was guilty; it means there was evidence. Was it good evidence? That's more in doubt, but I never claimed it was good evidence.
Fair enough... as for the original point, i doubt Lilly had your evidence in mind. Her "evidence" was Ben panicking upon thinking he would be thrown out of the group, and begging to stay. Many will plead like that rather than be thrown into the streets to survive by themselves. She didn't say anything to back up her claims and her willingness to convict Carley and completely forget Ben's crimes if he agreed to do so shows that she either had no evidence or didn't care about it at all, she just wanted someone to take the blame. Even if it was there, Lilly was likely not using it and did not have it.
At the end of the day Lilly was a witch and needs to be burned at the stake. :mad:
Fair enough... as for the original point, i doubt Lilly had your evidence in mind. Her "evidence" was Ben panicking upon thinking he would be thrown out of the group, and begging to stay. Many will plead like that rather than be thrown into the streets to survive by themselves. She didn't say anything to back up her claims and her willingness to convict Carley and completely forget Ben's crimes if he agreed to do so shows that she either had no evidence or didn't care about it at all, she just wanted someone to take the blame. Even if it was there, Lilly was likely not using it and did not have it.
At the end of the day Lilly was a witch and needs to be burned at the stake. :mad:
A "witch" with a capital B . I wouldn't exactly call it fair enough. Lilly had no evidence. And as for evidence, gravity to Ben situation are two completely different things. One of them is a THEORY, and the other is a GUESS.
Lilly pulling a gun on ANYONE was wrong. If Ben had tried to grab a weapon or something, then by all rights shoot him. All he did was beg and plead not to be thrown out of the group. I'd say either throw him out or, if you're merciful, tie him up like Lilly and decide from there. I wouldn't trust him around our supplies or with a gun for a long time after that. He, nor anyone else, had to be shot to prove a point. Lilly let her Glock drive that point home through Carley's head while her back was turned, just because Carley told her something she didn't want to hear. It's a good thing Lilly made her exit from the game at that point, be it by fleeing or exile, because straight up murdering a group memberlike she did is nearly unforgiveable.
In a given group, long-term; infections due to a lack of antibiotics would almost certainly kill more people than any other cause. It's the one good that can't be replaced. You can hunt for food, you can boil water. A wound gets infected? Pick a fungus, do some praying and hope it works (hint, it probably won't).
And people tend to forget that the group had actually been holding off the bandits for weeks before they happened to stop attacking, Kenny says as much - hell, look at the wall during Lee's investigation. It's covered with arrows and bulletholes. We know they had been making runs into Macon during that time. All Ben's deal did was get the group to lower its guard... as evidenced by the fact Ben was the one on watch when the bandits were finally able to get in in the first place (he failed to notice an entire group of armed people approaching from an elevated position, Carley was able to spot the St. Johns from ground level).
And you assume the raping, murdering bandits would've kept their end. Next thing they could've done before leaving was take Clementine as collateral.
I didn't say I trusted them to keep their word, but at least wait it out and see. if those pricks tried to take Clem, then shoot their asses. But DON'T just go shooting the bandits if you don't have to. Obviously there were more of them. And no, they had a couple of small attacks by them, but nothing serious. And they were quiet for days after that. If you lower your guard during a zombie apocalypse, you are a fucking dumbass!(sorry for language). Seriously? It's more like that Lee and Kenny are the scavengers, so the only ones who could do watch would be Lilly or Ben(Carley if you chose her). Lilly is too cowardly to actually defend the motel herself, so she has a kid do it.
Boiling infected water probably won't work in ya know blood's case, and you wouldn't want to risk it. Food and water are extremely limited, considering to find food you have to go out and hunt/fish/pick crops/root(which only lasts so long). Fish and animals need food too, and with walkers and humans dwindling their numbers, they aren't a reliable food source. Crops are nice, but you need water for your crops. You also need something protecting them, or others will steak them. If walkers walk by, they kick up sand/dust, yuck :P. If you kill one over them, they get the blood and guts all over 'em. I wouldn't want to grow crops with walkers underneath the ground either. So food and water is most important. Medicine I'd say isn't that important. If you get an infection, unless it's other than a zombie infection, you're fucked. You can't take medicine for it, nor can it stop you from turning. Patching the wound won't help either, unless you cut it off first. So giving a bit of meds to me was worth more than losing ALL the meds, ALL the food, a lot of the weapons, supplies, etc. They lost EVERYTHING, just because Lilly started a shootout.
Either way, no matter who killed who, unless it was absolutely justified, they would be kicked out or executed, depending on the threat they pose. In such case, I'd of had Lilly executed, sorry Lilly fans.
Fair enough... as for the original point, i doubt Lilly had your evidence in mind. Her "evidence" was Ben panicking upon thinking he would be thrown out of the group, and begging to stay. Many will plead like that rather than be thrown into the streets to survive by themselves. She didn't say anything to back up her claims and her willingness to convict Carley and completely forget Ben's crimes if he agreed to do so shows that she either had no evidence or didn't care about it at all, she just wanted someone to take the blame. Even if it was there, Lilly was likely not using it and did not have it.
At the end of the day Lilly was a witch and needs to be burned at the stake. :mad:
Oh, don't get me wrong. I left her on the side of the road and let her choke on my dust; had she only killed Ben though... it would've been a much harder call.
Lilly pulling a gun on ANYONE was wrong. If Ben had tried to grab a weapon or something, then by all rights shoot him. All he did was beg and plead not to be thrown out of the group. I'd say either throw him out or, if you're merciful, tie him up like Lilly and decide from there. I wouldn't trust him around our supplies or with a gun for a long time after that. He, nor anyone else, had to be shot to prove a point. Lilly let her Glock drive that point home through Carley's head while her back was turned, just because Carley told her something she didn't want to hear. It's a good thing Lilly made her exit from the game at that point, be it by fleeing or exile, because straight up murdering a group memberlike she did is nearly unforgiveable.
Under the circumstances, there's really not that many options beyond shooting somebody or just letting people get away with stuff. I've covered this elsewhere. What other options are there, realistically? Don't trust them with a weapon or near supplies? You'll need to expend man-hours keeping an eye on them. Imprisonment? That's a non-productive group member that's still consuming resources. Hard labor? You're expending precious man-hours to make sure they actually do it. You prefer to exile them? Barring very good luck on their part, that's basically just a far less humane death sentence where you can pretend your hands are clean; if you're willing to do that, you might as well just kill them on the spot.
In all cases, you're either expending time and energy better used on little things like survival, or effectively killing the accused/guilty anyway. Though, given what happened, it's a pretty good argument as to why nobody should be within arm's reach of a weapon when tempers are high.
I didn't say I trusted them to keep their word, but at least wait it out and see. if those pricks tried to take Clem, then shoot their asses. But DON'T just go shooting the bandits if you don't have to. Obviously there were more of them. And no, they had a couple of small attacks by them, but nothing serious. And they were quiet for days after that. If you lower your guard during a zombie apocalypse, you are a fucking dumbass!(sorry for language). Seriously? It's more like that Lee and Kenny are the scavengers, so the only ones who could do watch would be Lilly or Ben(Carley if you chose her). Lilly is too cowardly to actually defend the motel herself, so she has a kid do it.
Prove it. "Small attacks" - the wall is covered in arrows and bullet holes. The fact is even despite Ben's incompetence (and that's generously assuming he intentionally didn't report the bandits approaching) which allowed the bandits to get through the outer gate and give them the element of surprise, they still failed to kill a single group member when the bullets started flying.
There's really nothing good that can be said of your plan in this regard. If you're willing to let them in, sit down, negotiate, etc. with them, you've already lost your chance to regain the initiative if they do something like try to take Clem or another group member as collateral. By then, it's basically too late, you've forfeit the element of surprise... and it still requires hoping that that the murderers and rapists keep their end of the bargain.
Lee knew this when he went out; at no point was there any prospect of legitimately negotiating with the bandits. He was out there solely to get them to drop their guard so Lilly could kill them from the high ground.
If not for Ben, it's reasonably certain the bandits never would've even managed to get past the gate. Why? Because they failed to do so before.
Boiling infected water probably won't work in ya know blood's case, and you wouldn't want to risk it. Food and water are extremely limited, considering to find food you have to go out and hunt/fish/pick crops/root(which only lasts so long). Fish and animals need food too, and with walkers and humans dwindling their numbers, they aren't a reliable food source. Crops are nice, but you need water for your crops. You also need something protecting them, or others will steak them. If walkers walk by, they kick up sand/dust, yuck :P. If you kill one over them, they get the blood and guts all over 'em. I wouldn't want to grow crops with walkers underneath the ground either. So food and water is most important. Medicine I'd say isn't that important. If you get an infection, unless it's other than a zombie infection, you're fucked. You can't take medicine for it, nor can it stop you from turning. Patching the wound won't help either, unless you cut it off first. So giving a bit of meds to me was worth more than losing ALL the meds, ALL the food, a lot of the weapons, supplies, etc. They lost EVERYTHING, just because Lilly started a shootout.
Either way, no matter who killed who, unless it was absolutely justified, they would be kicked out or executed, depending on the threat they pose. In such case, I'd of had Lilly executed, sorry Lilly fans.
What the hell are you talking about "infected" water? Damn near all water you collect from outdoors should be boiled due to everyday waterborne pathogens; whether it be protozoa, parasitic, bacterial, viral... this is Survivalism 101 stuff, literally one of the very first things you learn about living outdoors. Worrying about the zombie plague doesn't matter if you're killed by a crapping disease like E. Coli or Dysentery because you didn't boil the water you collected.
Long-term, without things like antibiotics, I'd fully expect mundane diseases to kill more people than walkers do. A walker has to slowly lumber up to somebody and bite them; airborne or waterborne diseases don't care about how thick your walls are or how many guns you have, and they're a lot harder to notice.
Hell, even then it's shown atleast in the TV series that boiling is apparently enough to make things like the prison riot gear taken off dead walkers clean and safe enough to use. Nobody balked at Hershel's suggestion to use the formerly walker-infested prison field to grow crops, etc.
Yeah, but they cleared the dead husks because they were afraid of growing crops on infected soil. And no shit sherlock, I know about purifying water, but it only clears so much. Blood is blood is blood, guts are guts, wherever you are getting your water, it has to be "zombie free". In the TV series, the walker that got trapped in the well? They didn't drink from that water again xD. THAT my friend, is infected water. And yeah, people will surely die of other diseases, and then they'll turn and kill others. The zombie plague will kill A LOT more. And yeah, diseases and the like are dangerous. However, many people are able to avoid them using precautions. People can get over common illnesses, but a bite is a sure death without an amputation(or maybe sucking the bite poison out, idk, never seen that yet). And Lee talks about "the bandits have had our number for days now. But they've been quiet for days". Something like that. Dude, if 30 bandits pop over that fence at once, no kid(especially Ben) will be able to stop them. And at Ben's POV, he proably saw them get the supplies, and when they discovered they weren't there, snuck over the fence. And not negotiate with bandits? Ben had before. Nobody died then? The St. Johns did, and the bandits only retaliated when they didn't receive their food. And not be able to retaliate if they tried to peace talk? They did before. I'd say fuck it and give them double or it all, you can get more meds fairly easily. For a while at least, many places probably weren't looted, and many households have a lot of medications. Even if things went terribly Lee had his pistol and Lilly had a frickin' rifle. I think they could handle several bandits just as they did there. Lilly wasn't seen, so she'd be a good handler if things really did go to shit.
Greetings, people, I'm back! I see the fire is still burning and my topic is HOT
I'm not gonna read the last 3-4 pages because they contain a book of information and I feel lazy :P. So what is the latest debate?
P.S Just scanned through the latest posts. Lilly is not a coward. She is definitely messed up but she is not a coward. Ben is a coward, Kenny is a coward... Lilly's not.
Seeing as how you're right about it being too much trouble to just keep Ben tied up, then he should be kicked out. Nobody needed to pull a weapon out, but Lilly decided to do it anyway. The kid didn't need to be shot. Carley didn't, and neither did Doug. Lilly went off the handle, and it cost an innocent person (Doug or Carley) their life.
@Yami, nice to see you back! Ben may be a coward, but how is Kenny? In my game, the man willingly gave his life to save a pregnant woman from a horde of walkers... not exactly something a coward would do.
In my opinion Lily was lucky to just be left behind. It is a chance at life. One Doug/Carly never got. If the option was there I would have had Lee shoot her so she could never kill in cold blood ever again. I know people are gonna scream Kenny killed Larry and Lee is a convicted murderer but in both their cases Right or Wrong they both had good reasons. Kenny killed Larry over him coming back and killing all of them and Lee got into a fight with a guy who is screwin his wife and knocked him out of the window of the hotel in the heat of battle. (My guess on senator's death). Lily killed Doug/Carly for NO REASON at all. After she does it. Instead of explaning herself or truly appologizing she turns and points out Lee is a murderer. Tryin to divert the attention of this horrable act onto Lee. No remorse. Cold hearted. Selfish. Not only did she kill one of the group but also proved she does not care what the rest of the group is thinking. The vote was not totally going her way. So she shot. Leaving a crazy person alive is a liability anyway. Who is to say Her new goal in life is not to get revenge on the group. Again I'd drop that bitch like a bad habit. Lily is truly lucky with a chance at life in my eyes.
Greetings, people, I'm back! I see the fire is still burning and my topic is HOT
I'm not gonna read the last 3-4 pages because they contain a book of information and I feel lazy :P. So what is the latest debate?
P.S Just scanned through the latest posts. Lilly is not a coward. She is definitely messed up but she is not a coward. Ben is a coward, Kenny is a coward... Lilly's not.
Welcome back. And she is a coward, read some other threads because its a bulk of an explanation and I'm busy and too lazy to write it all. I've written about it before as have other people like Jaded.
Yeah, but they cleared the dead husks because they were afraid of growing crops on infected soil. And no shit sherlock, I know about purifying water, but it only clears so much. Blood is blood is blood, guts are guts, wherever you are getting your water, it has to be "zombie free". In the TV series, the walker that got trapped in the well? They didn't drink from that water again xD. THAT my friend, is infected water. And yeah, people will surely die of other diseases, and then they'll turn and kill others. The zombie plague will kill A LOT more. And yeah, diseases and the like are dangerous. However, many people are able to avoid them using precautions. People can get over common illnesses, but a bite is a sure death without an amputation(or maybe sucking the bite poison out, idk, never seen that yet). And Lee talks about "the bandits have had our number for days now. But they've been quiet for days". Something like that. Dude, if 30 bandits pop over that fence at once, no kid(especially Ben) will be able to stop them. And at Ben's POV, he proably saw them get the supplies, and when they discovered they weren't there, snuck over the fence. And not negotiate with bandits? Ben had before. Nobody died then? The St. Johns did, and the bandits only retaliated when they didn't receive their food. And not be able to retaliate if they tried to peace talk? They did before. I'd say fuck it and give them double or it all, you can get more meds fairly easily. For a while at least, many places probably weren't looted, and many households have a lot of medications. Even if things went terribly Lee had his pistol and Lilly had a frickin' rifle. I think they could handle several bandits just as they did there. Lilly wasn't seen, so she'd be a good handler if things really did go to shit.
First and foremost: Paragraphs are your friend.
Second, how many walkers do you think are getting torn in half in rivers, streams, or ponds? You're being just a tad dishonest with that example. The whole exercise in trying to get that walker out in one piece in the first place was to make the well useable to the group... and as previosly noted, boiling the gunk-covered riot gear from the prison walkers was evidently enough to make it useable.
Incidentally, we know from Maggie that the farm's livestock were watered from that well. Given the state of the walker in question, that livestock had to have been watered from the well while that walker was in it. The farm's livestock evidently never became sick and died as a result. That leaves two possibilities; either walkers don't actually contaminate water they're in (the characters only assumed such was the case), or whatever infection(s) walkers carry don't cross species lines. One of the two is demonstrably correct, if not both.
The typical lookout (Carley) was able to spot the St. Johns while at ground level through the wall. Ben had an elevated position; unless he was mind numbingly incompetent or basically a traitor (by permitting the bandits to approach without raising an alarm) there's no way the bandits should have even made it past the treeline without the sentry raising an alarm. It's not like they were all that sneaky wearing white and gray against the background of orange leaves in autumn.
Hell, the smartest thing would've been to just keep letting the bandits impotently fire at the wall. It's one of the basics of military doctrine; it's where the group has a fortified position, little things like cover and concealment... and as a general rule, an attacker needs a three to one advantage to have a reasonably good chance of success (and that assumes roughly equal amounts of competence... which was obviously not the case for the bandits). Make them fight on your terms, not after they've had an oppurtunity to get human shields.
It's not like the bandits negotiated in good faith, and frankly, you'd have to be stupid to think they would. Ben? They originally told him they had his friend (idiot that Ben was, he believed them). Andy'll tell you the bandits killed a bunch of their farmhands. Jolene? She begged the bandits "every way she could" to get her daughter back... that didn't work out well for her.
And I've covered this before. Nobody's producing new medication and every other surviving person is looking for the same resources. There's a reason that during a disaster, you're advised to have things like this before the crap hits the fan. Whatever gets used is gone. Given the specific sort of apocalyptic scenario (infection) in this case; medication like antibiotics were probably used in excess to try and treat it before soceity finally collapsed in its entirety. Even if you are lucky enough to find the stuff lying about? Most people won't even know the majority of antibiotics by name, so they could be looking at somebody's ED pills or birth control for all they know.
Second, how many walkers do you think are getting torn in half in rivers, streams, or ponds? You're being just a tad dishonest with that example. The whole exercise in trying to get that walker out in one piece in the first place was to make the well useable to the group... and as previosly noted, boiling the gunk-covered riot gear from the prison walkers was evidently enough to make it useable.
Incidentally, we know from Maggie that the farm's livestock were watered from that well. Given the state of the walker in question, that livestock had to have been watered from the well while that walker was in it. The farm's livestock evidently never became sick and died as a result. That leaves two possibilities; either walkers don't actually contaminate water they're in (the characters only assumed such was the case), or whatever infection(s) walkers carry don't cross species lines. One of the two is demonstrably correct, if not both.
The typical lookout (Carley) was able to spot the St. Johns while at ground level through the wall. Ben had an elevated position; unless he was mind numbingly incompetent or basically a traitor (by permitting the bandits to approach without raising an alarm) there's no way the bandits should have even made it past the treeline without the sentry raising an alarm. It's not like they were all that sneaky wearing white and gray against the background of orange leaves in autumn.
Hell, the smartest thing would've been to just keep letting the bandits impotently fire at the wall. It's one of the basics of military doctrine; it's where the group has a fortified position, little things like cover and concealment... and as a general rule, an attacker needs a three to one advantage to have a reasonably good chance of success (and that assumes roughly equal amounts of competence... which was obviously not the case for the bandits). Make them fight on your terms, not after they've had an oppurtunity to get human shields.
It's not like the bandits negotiated in good faith, and frankly, you'd have to be stupid to think they would. Ben? They originally told him they had his friend (idiot that Ben was, he believed them). Andy'll tell you the bandits killed a bunch of their farmhands. Jolene? She begged the bandits "every way she could" to get her daughter back... that didn't work out well for her.
And I've covered this before. Nobody's producing new medication and every other surviving person is looking for the same resources. There's a reason that during a disaster, you're advised to have things like this before the crap hits the fan. Whatever gets used is gone. Given the specific sort of apocalyptic scenario (infection) in this case; medication like antibiotics were probably used in excess to try and treat it before soceity finally collapsed in its entirety. Even if you are lucky enough to find the stuff lying about? Most people won't even know the majority of antibiotics by name, so they could be looking at somebody's ED pills or birth control for all they know.
True about the pills, and they eventually expire. However, those meds weren't the only ones on earth.
Also, you basically answered your own question with Ben's incompetence haha.
The bandits were bad people, no doubt, but was the answer to actually start a shootout? One person with a semi or bolt action won't take out four bandits alone, and all the group together couldn't take on the mass amounts of walkers.
Yes, the water was contaminated. It was confirmed somewhere, although I can't remember(how fortunate ). Also, putting riot gear on isn't the same as licking it off xD. They didn't eat the walker glop lol. They cleaned it off. They say most bacteria only lasts three days, and I doubt they would serve their meals on the riot gear! Also, you see those of the group and in the comics drinking bottled water, water caught from rain, or small streams to lakes where they assume the water is drinkable(of course they boil it first though).
I'd be stupid to think they would? They were already going to. Give them the supplies, apologize, and give Ben as an offering in good faith(kidding).
If they tried anything foolish, then shoot the hell out of them. Lee had a pistol ready and Lilly was unnoticed with a rifle. As long as there were only four of them, they could have slit their throats once they went inside to negotiate for all I care lol. Then drive off in the RV before the other bandits could react. But at a leader standpoint? Shooting out in such a situation was a seriously bad call. I can't say there were great ones, but with the information she had, it wasn't a bright idea. Say the bandits weren't complete morons. Lilly can only down one at a time, and the bandits had some of the group at gunpoint. She had no idea how many were out in the woods, nor how many walkers were lurking. She should have known they'd be pressed for time with such an option, and such would cost them more dearly. You talk about how meds are important, but you do realize by doing that they lost ALL the meds? Not to mention the food, weapons, ammunition, and other valuable supplies left behind.
And yeah, if one man shoots a walker in a body of water, blood and possibly guts will flow xD. If a walker was already losing blood or had guts hanging out, it would easily contaminate the water. Remember the zombie with the barely connected head? imagine him trying to cross a harsh-flowing river. Bye bye head, hello brains . And considering the fact that walkers are seriously retarded, they could fall off a cliff and not give a fuck. So... yeah, there's my take on that one lol.
And no, maybe the walker had newly found it's way into that well. Most likely, considering the walker still had many blood stains and the like on him. Also, for skin, water deprives of oil, and causes skin to shrivel from the loss of oils. That walker looked fine to me lol. Could have just been you know, invulnerable to water though, who knows!? Take info on zombies with popcorn and a grain of salt. Be entertained, but don't always assume :P. If you don't see someone die, they aren't dead. If you don't hear it said or it isn't seen, it isn't true. If someone says something about the apocalypse, don't always believe it. Unless you are 100% sure, do not eat or drink anything that may be contaminated. And of course, never trust walkers! They may ask for hugs, but they want your intestines! 1-10 retardation scale, with a ten being high-fiving walkers
True about the pills, and they eventually expire. However, those meds weren't the only ones on earth.
Also, you basically answered your own question with Ben's incompetence haha.
The bandits were bad people, no doubt, but was the answer to actually start a shootout? One person with a semi or bolt action won't take out four bandits alone, and all the group together couldn't take on the mass amounts of walkers.
Yes, the water was contaminated. It was confirmed somewhere, although I can't remember(how fortunate ). Also, putting riot gear on isn't the same as licking it off xD. They didn't eat the walker glop lol. They cleaned it off. They say most bacteria only lasts three days, and I doubt they would serve their meals on the riot gear! Also, you see those of the group and in the comics drinking bottled water, water caught from rain, or small streams to lakes where they assume the water is drinkable(of course they boil it first though).
I'd be stupid to think they would? They were already going to. Give them the supplies, apologize, and give Ben as an offering in good faith(kidding).
If they tried anything foolish, then shoot the hell out of them. Lee had a pistol ready and Lilly was unnoticed with a rifle. As long as there were only four of them, they could have slit their throats once they went inside to negotiate for all I care lol. Then drive off in the RV before the other bandits could react. But at a leader standpoint? Shooting out in such a situation was a seriously bad call. I can't say there were great ones, but with the information she had, it wasn't a bright idea. Say the bandits weren't complete morons. Lilly can only down one at a time, and the bandits had some of the group at gunpoint. She had no idea how many were out in the woods, nor how many walkers were lurking. She should have known they'd be pressed for time with such an option, and such would cost them more dearly. You talk about how meds are important, but you do realize by doing that they lost ALL the meds? Not to mention the food, weapons, ammunition, and other valuable supplies left behind.
And yeah, if one man shoots a walker in a body of water, blood and possibly guts will flow xD. If a walker was already losing blood or had guts hanging out, it would easily contaminate the water. Remember the zombie with the barely connected head? imagine him trying to cross a harsh-flowing river. Bye bye head, hello brains . And considering the fact that walkers are seriously retarded, they could fall off a cliff and not give a fuck. So... yeah, there's my take on that one lol.
And no, maybe the walker had newly found it's way into that well. Most likely, considering the walker still had many blood stains and the like on him. Also, for skin, water deprives of oil, and causes skin to shrivel from the loss of oils. That walker looked fine to me lol. Could have just been you know, invulnerable to water though, who knows!? Take info on zombies with popcorn and a grain of salt. Be entertained, but don't always assume :P. If you don't see someone die, they aren't dead. If you don't hear it said or it isn't seen, it isn't true. If someone says something about the apocalypse, don't always believe it. Unless you are 100% sure, do not eat or drink anything that may be contaminated. And of course, never trust walkers! They may ask for hugs, but they want your intestines! 1-10 retardation scale, with a ten being high-fiving walkers
When it comes to a finite good like pills, you don't take chances. Especially given that the infrastructure's probably going to be trashed; no maintained roads, etc. (meaning you'll probably be doing more walking than you'd like).
Start a shootout with the bandits? Absolutely. Hell, had they been contested as soon as they were seen (I'm positive Ben deliberately let them get as close as they did, since he was already working with them and the bandits apparently knew to avoid Doug's alarm); odds are they never would've made it in to take hostages in the first place, as was evidently the case the previous times they attacked. The bandits are coming from the woods, incidentally, any walkers attracted by gunfire are also going to come from the woods (as we saw). That leaves a fortified, defended position to the bandits' front, potentially walkers to their rear.
Ben's dealing with the bandits in the first place and allowing them to get to the gate uncontested was what cost the group their supplies. He chose to be the bandits' accomplice, that's nobody's fault but his and to his credit, even he understood it was his fault.
If the bandits "try anything foolish" while they have hostages? It's basically too late, you've forfeit the initiative. Lilly knew this, as did Lee - at no point was Lee actually trying to make a deal with the bandits, at no point does he disagree with Lilly about the plan. The bandits already have guns on the group - the first "foolish" thing they do could be to kill a hostage like Clem to prove they're serious; whoops, too late for you. By striking first you put them on the defensive. That Lilly only had a bolt-action rifle doesn't matter, because the bandits don't know that. Realistically, she wouldn't need to kill everybody in one go anyway, that's something people get from Hollywood: from experience, when bullets start flying, people seek cover. The overwhelming majority of rounds expended in combat are meant to suppress, i.e. force the enemy to keep their heads down so they're more focused on staying alive rather than say, killing people... and it basically worked, the remaining hostage takers were either too confused to know what to do, or ran for cover.
And yeah, you would have to be stupid to think the bandits would deal in good faith. Ben's deal with them started in the first place because they lied about having Ben's friend; Jolene begged them "every way she could" for her little girl and they laughed in her face.
And no, not only was it stated by the creators in the design of the well walker that it looked the way it did because it had been in the water for quite some time (which is incidentally why it doesn't look like... oh, any other walker in the series). It's really pretty damn obvious to anybody that has these things called "eyes". Particularly given the fact that it was so saturated that it took multiple people to lift it out of the well and that basically it split in half under its own weight when they tried to pull it over the lip of the well. So, again, leaves us two options; either animals are immune, or whatever zombies carry doesn't contaminate water - atleast one is demonstably correct, if not both.
It's just another uncertainty, and TWD really won't go into it. It really doesn't matter to them. One day, they might tell us, but for now, it's not a fact. The Greene's had other wells, so they didn't need that one, and who knows if the animals or anyone drank from it AFTER the zombie got in there. However, Dale certainly caused a panic to T-Dog whi was about to drink the water, and they seemed to want the walker out pretty badly. If having a walker in the water was harmless, why would they try to get him out? Why not just shoot him in the head and let his guts get everywhere if zombies can't contaminate walkers? If they are that thirsty, they'd drink it right? But why go through so much trouble to get the walker out, using Glenn as bait no less lol. It doesn't make any sense, apparently the walkers either contaminate the water, or they just didn't want zombie guts in their water. If I was in an apocalypse, and that water wouldn't kill me or make me sick, hell I'd drink it. I'd take it all, since everyone else wouldn't want it. But no, they leave it alone, moving to a different well. So who knows? Not us :P lol
They took Jolene's daughter because they were "rapist monsters". Besides, Jolene had little use to them. What did she have? lol The St. John's were attacked at the beginning and killed some of their farmhands. However, then they made a deal with them, and they left them alone. They didn't take anyone, nobody was used as a bartering chip/hostage(well... except Duck, but he was meat to them lol). If the bandits killed anyone, they knew they'd be getting themselves into trouble. You don't take hostages to kill all you are holding, you use them to get what you want; the supplies. The bandits had all but Lee and Lilly held hostage, if they wanted to, they could have easily taken the entire place by force. The fact that they didn't mean't they weren't there to kill, just to take what was theirs. They didn't even know Lilly was there, so as far as they were concerned, Lee was the only one left, and the one bandit had him at gunpoint. Why not kill them all, and just take everything? Because they needed them for the supplies, and with them all alive, they'd get insurance on their "finance". keeping the group alive would, in time, produce more supplies for them, if they watched them. And the one bandit even explained "Why? This guy, why? Cause we gotta, that's why!" As in they needed to do it, albeit it was wrong, they needed to do it to survive. Had they made a deal, there is a strong chance a deal would have been made and the bandits would have made peace with the group, maybe keep a better eye on them, but leave them alone. And it would only take one dark night where they couldn't be watched to sneak out with the RV, never to be seen again. I can't say for sure the bandits wouldn't kill someone as a warning (take BEN!) but I think odds were with how the bandits needed the group, that they'd try to stay on their "good side". Killing someone of the group that had family or was liked at least would seriously piss off the group, so if they had to kill someone it'd be like Ben. Only one I can see to take the fall, considering. No offense to Ben, but that'd be a worthy sacrifice. That'd be a trade of Ben for Carley/Doug, Lilly(although I hate her), Katjaa, and Duck. Eventually Brie, Kenny, and I'd say Lee, considering with most the group back, and people who would actually WATCH Clementine from leaving on her own, she'd probably never have been taken by the stranger, and they'd have all survived. The only problem would have been who was going on that boat :P
It's just another uncertainty, and TWD really won't go into it. It really doesn't matter to them. One day, they might tell us, but for now, it's not a fact. The Greene's had other wells, so they didn't need that one, and who knows if the animals or anyone drank from it AFTER the zombie got in there. However, Dale certainly caused a panic to T-Dog whi was about to drink the water, and they seemed to want the walker out pretty badly. If having a walker in the water was harmless, why would they try to get him out? Why not just shoot him in the head and let his guts get everywhere if zombies can't contaminate walkers? If they are that thirsty, they'd drink it right? But why go through so much trouble to get the walker out, using Glenn as bait no less lol. It doesn't make any sense, apparently the walkers either contaminate the water, or they just didn't want zombie guts in their water. If I was in an apocalypse, and that water wouldn't kill me or make me sick, hell I'd drink it. I'd take it all, since everyone else wouldn't want it. But no, they leave it alone, moving to a different well. So who knows? Not us :P lol
Again with an appeal to ignorance. The characters don't know that walkers contaminate wells, because they never confirmed it (not that it's an unwise precaution). They simply assumed the walker contaminated the well.
It's like saying because you should always boil or otherwise purify water found on the ground, such water will always make you sick if you don't. No, it's possible (or probable) it could make you sick. Same thing here.
The only way to actually confirm that the infection can be spread via water or when otherwise ingested? Know that someone drank that sort of water, die and reanimate from no other cause.
What we do know is that the farm's livestock were presently drinking from that well and had in the past: Maggie explicitly says they use that well for the farm's animals, present tense (so any talk about "oh, we don't know" is bunk, they were keeping things like chickens and horses that need frequent access to water, not camels), we know the walker was in that well for a lengthy period of time since the creators confirmed it (not that it should be necessary, since it's kinda obvious to people with you know, eyes).
As such, that still leaves only those two possibilities I've previously mentioned. Because it was confirmed that animals drank water from the well (and that they had to while the walker was in it) and didn't die as a result. It's the scientific method at its most basic; that's why I list those two possibilities, because the evidence we see shows atleast one of the two (if not both) is the case.
They took Jolene's daughter because they were "rapist monsters". Besides, Jolene had little use to them. What did she have? lol The St. John's were attacked at the beginning and killed some of their farmhands. However, then they made a deal with them, and they left them alone. They didn't take anyone, nobody was used as a bartering chip/hostage(well... except Duck, but he was meat to them lol). If the bandits killed anyone, they knew they'd be getting themselves into trouble. You don't take hostages to kill all you are holding, you use them to get what you want; the supplies. The bandits had all but Lee and Lilly held hostage, if they wanted to, they could have easily taken the entire place by force. The fact that they didn't mean't they weren't there to kill, just to take what was theirs. They didn't even know Lilly was there, so as far as they were concerned, Lee was the only one left, and the one bandit had him at gunpoint. Why not kill them all, and just take everything? Because they needed them for the supplies, and with them all alive, they'd get insurance on their "finance". keeping the group alive would, in time, produce more supplies for them, if they watched them. And the one bandit even explained "Why? This guy, why? Cause we gotta, that's why!" As in they needed to do it, albeit it was wrong, they needed to do it to survive. Had they made a deal, there is a strong chance a deal would have been made and the bandits would have made peace with the group, maybe keep a better eye on them, but leave them alone. And it would only take one dark night where they couldn't be watched to sneak out with the RV, never to be seen again. I can't say for sure the bandits wouldn't kill someone as a warning (take BEN!) but I think odds were with how the bandits needed the group, that they'd try to stay on their "good side". Killing someone of the group that had family or was liked at least would seriously piss off the group, so if they had to kill someone it'd be like Ben. Only one I can see to take the fall, considering. No offense to Ben, but that'd be a worthy sacrifice. That'd be a trade of Ben for Carley/Doug, Lilly(although I hate her), Katjaa, and Duck. Eventually Brie, Kenny, and I'd say Lee, considering with most the group back, and people who would actually WATCH Clementine from leaving on her own, she'd probably never have been taken by the stranger, and they'd have all survived. The only problem would have been who was going on that boat :P
Again, paragraphs.
And how old are you? Seriously, I have to ask that if you actually failed to put two and two together here when it came to Jolene. When she called them "rapist monsters" and "Begged them everyway she could"? You really can't think of anything "rapist monsters" might want from a woman? Really? I note you don't even contest the fact that they lied to Ben right off the bat about having his friend.
And are you kidding? Damn near the very first thing the bandit leader suggests is killing them all and taking everything... Lee's the one who tells the bandits they'll need them to gather supplies. Beyond that, assuming Ben's traitorous ass didn't tell them how many people were in the group to begin with, taking hostages is a great way to get anybody else out in the line of fire where they can't defend themselves as well. Hell, something similar is done by terrorists today; where they make an initial strike, wait for guys like first responders to show up to help then strike again solely to guarantee a higher body count.
The fact that Ben deliberately worked against the interests of the group by dealing with the bandits and compromising their security is hardly Lilly's fault. Most people don't get this, but leadership isn't some magical statistic or something where if it's high enough, people just magically fall in line and do what they should. If somebody's dead set on hating whoever's in charge or just doing their own thing; the person in charge can have all the leadership power of Alexander the Great or whatever historical leader strikes your fancy and it won't matter.
And how old are you? Seriously, I have to ask that if you actually failed to put two and two together here when it came to Jolene. When she called them "rapist monsters" and "Begged them everyway she could"? You really can't think of anything "rapist monsters" might want from a woman? Really? I note you don't even contest the fact that they lied to Ben right off the bat about having his friend.
And are you kidding? Damn near the very first thing the bandit leader suggests is killing them all and taking everything... Lee's the one who tells the bandits they'll need them to gather supplies. Beyond that, assuming Ben's traitorous ass didn't tell them how many people were in the group to begin with, taking hostages is a great way to get anybody else out in the line of fire where they can't defend themselves as well. Hell, something similar is done by terrorists today; where they make an initial strike, wait for guys like first responders to show up to help then strike again solely to guarantee a higher body count.
The fact that Ben deliberately worked against the interests of the group by dealing with the bandits and compromising their security is hardly Lilly's fault. Most people don't get this, but leadership isn't some magical statistic or something where if it's high enough, people just magically fall in line and do what they should. If somebody's dead set on hating whoever's in charge or just doing their own thing; the person in charge can have all the leadership power of Alexander the Great or whatever historical leader strikes your fancy and it won't matter.
No, because if you can't make them follow, you aren't much of a leader. a stem of leader is LEAD. And yeah, I said "rapist monsters" for a reason. However, they took the girl because the woman was of no use to her. She had nothing they wanted except her daughter. And yes it is, at the very least for putting Ben on watch. A kid you barely know to guard the group? Is that not stupid?
Yeah, I know how terrorism works, and no, there were other ways to handle it besides direct violence. They did nothing to Ben but try to scare him. They didn't harm him, and only threatened to kill them. It was a bluff.
And why would it be needed to bring up if EVERYONE with eyes and ears knows it? Whoo, Ben was lied to, wahhhhh, give him a cookie. It's not as bad as killing someone to scare him. And yeah, I like how you point to my age as an actual defense in your point, as if it has anything to do with it. As if that is mature. At this point in time, who really doesn't know what the hell is being stated? I actually figured considering it was so obvious anyone with half a brain could realise it. And also, yeah I write big, bulky, clusterfucks of text, I'm sorry if you can't handle it, I figured people with at least a third grade education could read. :P
No offense dude, but I really don't like to be attacked on what is to be an opinion about a thread. I mean, calm down a little :P Having your own thoughts on it is fine, and arguing my points is as well, but try not to chastise me bro! It's lil harsh lol
No, because if you can't make them follow, you aren't much of a leader. a stem of leader is LEAD. And yeah, I said "rapist monsters" for a reason. However, they took the girl because the woman was of no use to her. She had nothing they wanted except her daughter. And yes it is, at the very least for putting Ben on watch. A kid you barely know to guard the group? Is that not stupid?
Yeah, I know how terrorism works, and no, there were other ways to handle it besides direct violence. They did nothing to Ben but try to scare him. They didn't harm him, and only threatened to kill them. It was a bluff.
And why would it be needed to bring up if EVERYONE with eyes and ears knows it? Whoo, Ben was lied to, wahhhhh, give him a cookie. It's not as bad as killing someone to scare him. And yeah, I like how you point to my age as an actual defense in your point, as if it has anything to do with it. As if that is mature. At this point in time, who really doesn't know what the hell is being stated? I actually figured considering it was so obvious anyone with half a brain could realise it. And also, yeah I write big, bulky, clusterfucks of text, I'm sorry if you can't handle it, I figured people with at least a third grade education could read. :P
No offense dude, but I really don't like to be attacked on what is to be an opinion about a thread. I mean, calm down a little :P Having your own thoughts on it is fine, and arguing my points is as well, but try not to chastise me bro! It's lil harsh lol
How many actual leaders do you know or have been with? I've known my share of good and bad during my years in the service. One universal constant among them? Not one of them had a mind control ray.
Look at the Oath of Enlistment that I and every other guy take. Why do you think it has us swear to follow the orders of the President and those appointed above us? It's not much of a promise if any non-sucky leader can just force you to obey those orders. God forbid, it's like followers might actually have responsibilities.
More to the point, if I or any other guy in my unit didn't follow an order given by our company commander or deliberately worked against the interest of the people we were with, who do you think would be held accountable, me? Or my C.O.? Hint, you can be charged with disobeying orders. Ditto for treason. As far as I know, there's no "failure to subjugate this one shmuck with the power of your mind" charge.
Ironically enough? New guys are typically the ones given sentry duty, specifically because it is a pretty simple task. Ben being a shit bird that endangered the group for no good reason? That's nobody's fault except Ben's, particularly since he does it again the very next episode.
With Jolene? There's nothing the bandits couldn't have gotten from her little girl that they couldn't get from her. Hell, in Jolene's case, it's implied they did get it and just didn't deliver... and I'm sorry, but if you didn't get that, yeah, I kinda do need to your question your age. We know they lied through their teeth with Ben about his friend. Shock and surprise, guys who have no problem raping and murdering and kill each other over disputes have no qualms about lying.
In that scenario? Especially with these kind of people, you always want to be the one to get off the first shot. Doesn't matter if you're police or military. As the saying goes, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Starting a shootout then? Hardly ideal, it would've been better if the bandits had been contested at the gate (but again, Ben's treason/crapulence), waiting to give them the chance to do something you don't want? Gives them a chance to make things a whole lot worse.
There's a reason we have a fight or flight response; not a fight or flight or maybe invite them over for tea response. Fleeing wasn't an option.
Incidentally, paragraph writing is something learned by third-graders:
As this thread keeps popping up (28 pages, well done )
Here's my opinion on Lilly:
When we first met her, she seemed overwhelmed with the fact that she was the leader of a group, she couldn't calm anyone down, barely anyone listened to what she said, but she seemed nice - at least. Then at the motor inn, I knew she wouldn't be a good leader, because she was too cold hearted already, after 3 months she lost as much humanity as Rick did in twice or three times the time, and he is kind of insane right now, so it was predictable to me, that she would loose it at some point soon. Then what happened at the creepy dairy had happened, she was depressed, overwhelmed, and had nothing to loose, not a good mix. Of course she blamed Kenny for what he did, but she didn't even try to understand, that he tried to protect every one of them, because we saw one dead guy turn in a matter of minutes, and taking that risk in a locked room would have been stupid, yes... even though he opened his mouth if you did CPR, Kenny did the right thing with killing Larry, his-fucking-heart-stopped-beating, and we had no tools. She said everyone thinks of her as a
and with her behaviour in the RV, pointing fingers at random persons she has proven herself to be kind of like a nazi, they killed people because they thought they deserved it, so did she, didn't she? At the side of the road? Because someone had the guts to speak up? Hitler killed people for speaking up, and so did she.
Rick, Lee and Kenny, none of them killed people for their opinion, or because they thought, that they might be dangerous.
Maybe she was a nice person before she's lost it, and maybe I even didn't hate Larry, but the fact that she's lost it and snapped makes her a shitty leader, and she killed Carley, who we know was innocent, thus I don't think very highly of her, I don't want to use the word "hate" it's too strong, "hate" is the feeling I had, when Super-Ben left Clementine to die in E4, or when I heard of Crawford's "no burdens"-policy.
I know I'm writing in a "Pro-Lilly" thread, but I don't know where else to write my opinion on her, if some Lilly fans want to try and convince me she ain't that bad afterall, go ahead and try - I'm listening to reason...
If you were a leader and your muscle is on a supply run. Who would you want on watch being that your at your weakest. A 16 year old band geek or an military trained killer? To me thats not even a question. In the ARMY the low man gets watch. Even then they are trained properly and at least the age of 18. This is not the army. It is a band of civs. Lilys leadership is so bad. She puts a child on watch and goes hides in her room. On top of that if she is not on watch how does Ben steal without being notice. I mean WTF is Lily doing if she is not on watch and all the supplies are in her room. I truly believe Lily is intentionally tryin to sabotage the group.
As this thread keeps popping up (28 pages, well done )
Here's my opinion on Lilly:
When we first met her, she seemed overwhelmed with the fact that she was the leader of a group, she couldn't calm anyone down, barely anyone listened to what she said, but she seemed nice - at least. Then at the motor inn, I knew she wouldn't be a good leader, because she was too cold hearted already, after 3 months she lost as much humanity as Rick did in twice or three times the time, and he is kind of insane right now, so it was predictable to me, that she would loose it at some point soon. Then what happened at the creepy dairy had happened, she was depressed, overwhelmed, and had nothing to loose, not a good mix. Of course she blamed Kenny for what he did, but she didn't even try to understand, that he tried to protect every one of them, because we saw one dead guy turn in a matter of minutes, and taking that risk in a locked room would have been stupid, yes... even though he opened his mouth if you did CPR, Kenny did the right thing with killing Larry, his-fucking-heart-stopped-beating, and we had no tools. She said everyone thinks of her as a and with her behaviour in the RV, pointing fingers at random persons she has proven herself to be kind of like a nazi, they killed people because they thought they deserved it, so did she, didn't she? At the side of the road? Because someone had the guts to speak up? Hitler killed people for speaking up, and so did she.
Rick, Lee and Kenny, none of them killed people for their opinion, or because they thought, that they might be dangerous.
Maybe she was a nice person before she's lost it, and maybe I even didn't hate Larry, but the fact that she's lost it and snapped makes her a shitty leader, and she killed Carley, who we know was innocent, thus I don't think very highly of her, I don't want to use the word "hate" it's too strong, "hate" is the feeling I had, when Super-Ben left Clementine to die in E4, or when I heard of Crawford's "no burdens"-policy.
I know I'm writing in a "Pro-Lilly" thread, but I don't know where else to write my opinion on her, if some Lilly fans want to try and convince me she ain't that bad afterall, go ahead and try - I'm listening to reason...
I don't think I need to convince you anything, you seem to know quite enough :P. In case you haven't noticed, maybe the last three pages are almost nothing but Anti-Lilly comments haha. I hate her for reasons of my own, some of which you didn't bring up, but I'll assume you just didn't feel like writing essays. But yeah, not a very nice person :P
If you were a leader and your muscle is on a supply run. Who would you want on watch being that your at your weakest. A 16 year old band geek or an military trained killer? To me thats not even a question. In the ARMY the low man gets watch. Even then they are trained properly and at least the age of 18. This is not the army. It is a band of civs. Lilys leadership is so bad. She puts a child on watch and goes hides in her room. On top of that if she is not on watch how does Ben steal without being notice. I mean WTF is Lily doing if she is not on watch and all the supplies are in her room. I truly believe Lily is intentionally tryin to sabotage the group.
Yeah, that was one of the main things I couldn't understand. Like, you are right there, yet somehow things are getting stolen? Stash it somewhere and put a damn lock on, it's not like people have saws or the tools to cut off heavy-duty locks, and they shouldn't be too hard to find, considering not many people need them anymore.
As this thread keeps popping up (28 pages, well done )
Here's my opinion on Lilly:
When we first met her, she seemed overwhelmed with the fact that she was the leader of a group, she couldn't calm anyone down, barely anyone listened to what she said, but she seemed nice - at least. Then at the motor inn, I knew she wouldn't be a good leader, because she was too cold hearted already, after 3 months she lost as much humanity as Rick did in twice or three times the time, and he is kind of insane right now, so it was predictable to me, that she would loose it at some point soon. Then what happened at the creepy dairy had happened, she was depressed, overwhelmed, and had nothing to loose, not a good mix. Of course she blamed Kenny for what he did, but she didn't even try to understand, that he tried to protect every one of them, because we saw one dead guy turn in a matter of minutes, and taking that risk in a locked room would have been stupid, yes... even though he opened his mouth if you did CPR, Kenny did the right thing with killing Larry, his-fucking-heart-stopped-beating, and we had no tools. She said everyone thinks of her as a and with her behaviour in the RV, pointing fingers at random persons she has proven herself to be kind of like a nazi, they killed people because they thought they deserved it, so did she, didn't she? At the side of the road? Because someone had the guts to speak up? Hitler killed people for speaking up, and so did she.
Rick, Lee and Kenny, none of them killed people for their opinion, or because they thought, that they might be dangerous.
Maybe she was a nice person before she's lost it, and maybe I even didn't hate Larry, but the fact that she's lost it and snapped makes her a shitty leader, and she killed Carley, who we know was innocent, thus I don't think very highly of her, I don't want to use the word "hate" it's too strong, "hate" is the feeling I had, when Super-Ben left Clementine to die in E4, or when I heard of Crawford's "no burdens"-policy.
I know I'm writing in a "Pro-Lilly" thread, but I don't know where else to write my opinion on her, if some Lilly fans want to try and convince me she ain't that bad afterall, go ahead and try - I'm listening to reason...
On Larry, I don't blame Lilly for not trying to understand. Most people wouldn't either. Hell, the fact that Kenny didn't end up as a friendly fire casualty down the road shows a lot of restraint on her part, given it was her last family member. It was part of the reason I decided to help Larry; a living, thinking person with a firearm is a much bigger threat to me than a walker is.
Being cold-hearted in her case? It was kinda justified; had Ben been given the boot (as she wanted) in Ep. 2, things would've been quite a bit better for a number of people.
Fact is, while Lilly certainly has her faults (and big ones), she was downright prescient at times. The previous example I cited for Ben. On Kenny? "Wait until it happens to him" (and we know that Kenny actually would've gotten people on the train killed had Lee not stepped up). Ditto for wanting to leave the Dairy after Mark was attacked. And the fact is, even in Ep. 3 she was right for the most part; supplies were being stolen and Ben was responsible (Carley being where she lost it). The choice I made to leave Lilly on the road would've been a lot harder if she had only killed Ben (I was reasonably certain he was guilty too). Hell, she was even right to be hesitant about stealing from the car in Ep. 2, that comes back to bite us in the ass (or arm, in this case) come Ep. 5.
I've covered this elsewhere, but sometimes due process and the like need to go out the window. Hitler and his followers killed for power and because they were nuts. Lilly killed people because she thought they were a threat to the group. Hell, even in the U.S. some of those guarantees of equitable justice and such go out the window; Abraham Lincoln suspended Habeus Corpus, FDR kept a pretty tight lid on the press, etc.
And the fact is, Kenny did basically kill Larry because he thought he might be dangerous. In that case, choosing between him and Lilly is basically flipping a coin; there's no real difference between the two.
If you were a leader and your muscle is on a supply run. Who would you want on watch being that your at your weakest. A 16 year old band geek or an military trained killer? To me thats not even a question. In the ARMY the low man gets watch. Even then they are trained properly and at least the age of 18. This is not the army. It is a band of civs. Lilys leadership is so bad. She puts a child on watch and goes hides in her room. On top of that if she is not on watch how does Ben steal without being notice. I mean WTF is Lily doing if she is not on watch and all the supplies are in her room. I truly believe Lily is intentionally tryin to sabotage the group.
Actually, I was given watch duty at the age of 17 before I left for basic and didn't even have a rifle issued to me yet (I enlisted in the split-option program while I was still a junior in high school)... so yeah.
The low guy gets watch duty in the Army... period. Being trained? That was optional. A big chunk of the purpose of being on watch is to alert everyone else if there's a problem. Nobody really expects Private Joe Blow to take care of a problem by himself.
And we don't know all the supplies were in her room, as far as I know. Only the last pack that Lee and Kenny brought in... and odds are she had to you know, sleep or use the facilities at some point anyway.
As this thread keeps popping up (28 pages, well done )
Here's my opinion on Lilly:
When we first met her, she seemed overwhelmed with the fact that she was the leader of a group, she couldn't calm anyone down, barely anyone listened to what she said, but she seemed nice - at least. Then at the motor inn, I knew she wouldn't be a good leader, because she was too cold hearted already, after 3 months she lost as much humanity as Rick did in twice or three times the time, and he is kind of insane right now, so it was predictable to me, that she would loose it at some point soon. Then what happened at the creepy dairy had happened, she was depressed, overwhelmed, and had nothing to loose, not a good mix. Of course she blamed Kenny for what he did, but she didn't even try to understand, that he tried to protect every one of them, because we saw one dead guy turn in a matter of minutes, and taking that risk in a locked room would have been stupid, yes... even though he opened his mouth if you did CPR, Kenny did the right thing with killing Larry, his-fucking-heart-stopped-beating, and we had no tools. She said everyone thinks of her as a and with her behaviour in the RV, pointing fingers at random persons she has proven herself to be kind of like a nazi, they killed people because they thought they deserved it, so did she, didn't she? At the side of the road? Because someone had the guts to speak up? Hitler killed people for speaking up, and so did she.
Rick, Lee and Kenny, none of them killed people for their opinion, or because they thought, that they might be dangerous.
Maybe she was a nice person before she's lost it, and maybe I even didn't hate Larry, but the fact that she's lost it and snapped makes her a shitty leader, and she killed Carley, who we know was innocent, thus I don't think very highly of her, I don't want to use the word "hate" it's too strong, "hate" is the feeling I had, when Super-Ben left Clementine to die in E4, or when I heard of Crawford's "no burdens"-policy.
I know I'm writing in a "Pro-Lilly" thread, but I don't know where else to write my opinion on her, if some Lilly fans want to try and convince me she ain't that bad afterall, go ahead and try - I'm listening to reason...
If you like this thread you should see the fuck Kenny thread...it has 65 pages. Is that a record? Anyways..
Some bad things happened to Lilly along the way in my game that may not have occurred in your play through. I saw a person try to lead and keep a group safe under difficult circumstances. This can be taxing but we also had a prominent member of our group, Kenny, undermine her decisions and plans relentlessly.
In my game, Kenny also murdered her father right in front of Lilly while the two of us were trying to revive him with CPR. Maybe Larry would have made it like last time when he collapsed in the pharmacy but guess we'll never know.
Lilly is a strong woman but in talking with her, sitting with her for a while in her hotel room, the murder of her father took it's toll, maybe it even broke her. I tried my best to convince her that I was her friend and that she could count on me but then this issue of a traitor in our group surfaced. Lilly was just sure the traitor was Carley or Ben...well she was partially correct.
I think she snapped after the bandit attack and I wish I could say my hands were clean in this matter. The truth is that I initially helped Kenny undermine Lilly too. But I came to my senses and supported Lilly after episode 1. It begs the question, how clean are your hands? She started out okay and then went crazy....what role did you have in this if any?
Comments
And Kenny does pretty much the same thing with Ben the very next episode at Crawford when he wants Lee to drop Ben (Kenny'll also basically admit that he would have dropped Ben had he been making the call). Hell, that's even a case where the vote can theoretically end up being to keep Ben if you bring Clementine: She votes to keep Ben, Lee can vote to keep Ben, Christa will abstain if Clem's there, with Kenny being the obvious "no" vote. Nevermind the case with Larry if Lee opts to help Lilly try and save him, in that case it's effectively a majority decision to make the attempt and Kenny overrides it anyway.
Really, the choice between Lilly and Kenny really is yet another one that boils down to whether you want your poo sandwich on wheat or whole grain.
First, it's "no evidence", then "hardly evidence". That's shifting the goal posts.
Likewise, by that standard, "Maybe" the sun won't come up tomorrow or gravity will stop doing its thing after I post this because... pickles. Prior trends are evidence. None of the original group members apparently stole anything during the previous time of plenty either (and that was almost certainly a bigger haul, I highly doubt there was enough in the station wagon to keep the group going for three months, afterall).
People tend to forget that even in a modern court of law, the standard is "reasonable doubt" not "all doubt"; stuff like fingerprints tend to actually be pretty rare. It's ridiculous to hold a group of post-apocalyptic survivors to a higher standard than we hold a modern court with all the bells and whistles. People have been convicted with less evidence than what we had against Ben. I wasn't the only one who predicted that Ben was guilty, and the fact that people were able to accurately predict it was Ben is a pretty good indicator there was evidence against him.
There was also nothing to support the idea that Lilly was willing and able to shoot a member of the group dead(with the sole exception being Kenny), and they were with her for three months, as well. Anyone can change.
Which is an unrealistic and unreasonable standard; by that criteria even an eyewitness wouldn't qualify, nor would a confession, pretty much nothing would. Hell, even your own chosen example of fingerprints wouldn't in this case (or any): afterall, somebody could've planted those fingerprints or deliberately fudged the test - at best, it'd only prove Ben touched the stuff, not that he actually stole it.
There is always a margin of error (however small) when trying to determine what occurred during an event in the past. By definition, that leaves a non-zero amount of doubt in any circumstance. There's a reason the standard is "reasonable doubt", not "all doubt".
By necessity, the harsh reality is that in a post-apocalyptic scenario, justice would become a lot more fast and loose. It's not like today where if somebody steals your food or medicine you can just take a trip to the grocery store or call the pharmacy to request a refill. You can only expend so many man-hours on due process (a multi-month trial is right out). You can't really incarcerate the accused/guilty party for all that long since that's just going to be a non-productive person that's going to be a drain on resources...
However, Kenny could blame him for his family's demise. Also for Doug/Carley incident. He was allowed to be mega pissed, he just found out that a kid who was screwing up everything was the culprit. He directly tried to attack Ben out of anger, unlike Lilly who killed like a coward. Kenny never tried again, and actually let people vote. Christa didn't want Ben in the group, and Brie didnt like him either. Kenny obviously didnt want him there. That leaves the vote between you, Clem, and Vernon. Even if you vote for Ben, it's still basically even. Kenny wanted you to kill him, he didnt try himself. He wanted you to drop him to save yourself(it was a risk to pull him up) to keep everyone safe, as Ben was a danger to the group. I can't say it was right, but it's a ZA. Anyway, I never dropped Ben. Kenny is pissed at that at first, but later he realizes it was wrong to want him dead. Lilly simply tried to justify murdering someone. When Kenny tried to kill him, Ben had admitted it directly to him, had been lying to him, and kept quiet about it all that time. Lilly's case was IMO at least 10x worse than if Kenny had in ep 4. But hey, that's just me.
Be that as it may, your original suggestion of "Ben is guilty because he's the most recent addition to the group and he said I'm sorry" is not evidence in any sense of the word, so Lilly did not have anything to support her murder.
I agree. It could have meant anything. It could raise suspicion, but is in no way a confession
In a given group, long-term; infections due to a lack of antibiotics would almost certainly kill more people than any other cause. It's the one good that can't be replaced. You can hunt for food, you can boil water. A wound gets infected? Pick a fungus, do some praying and hope it works (hint, it probably won't).
And people tend to forget that the group had actually been holding off the bandits for weeks before they happened to stop attacking, Kenny says as much - hell, look at the wall during Lee's investigation. It's covered with arrows and bulletholes. We know they had been making runs into Macon during that time. All Ben's deal did was get the group to lower its guard... as evidenced by the fact Ben was the one on watch when the bandits were finally able to get in in the first place (he failed to notice an entire group of armed people approaching from an elevated position, Carley was able to spot the St. Johns from ground level).
And you assume the raping, murdering bandits would've kept their end. Next thing they could've done before leaving was take Clementine as collateral.
And your standards for evidence are basically worthless - they're self-contradictory. What evidence do we have that gravity will keep doing what it's supposed to do, that the Earth will keep rotating? That a video will accurately record an event?
More practically, why do you think repeat offenders get harsher sentences?
Fact is, if one can accurately predict that Ben was guilty; it means there was evidence. Was it good evidence? That's more in doubt, but I never claimed it was good evidence.
At the end of the day Lilly was a witch and needs to be burned at the stake. :mad:
A "witch" with a capital B
I didn't say I trusted them to keep their word, but at least wait it out and see. if those pricks tried to take Clem, then shoot their asses. But DON'T just go shooting the bandits if you don't have to. Obviously there were more of them. And no, they had a couple of small attacks by them, but nothing serious. And they were quiet for days after that. If you lower your guard during a zombie apocalypse, you are a fucking dumbass!(sorry for language). Seriously? It's more like that Lee and Kenny are the scavengers, so the only ones who could do watch would be Lilly or Ben(Carley if you chose her). Lilly is too cowardly to actually defend the motel herself, so she has a kid do it.
Boiling infected water probably won't work in ya know blood's case, and you wouldn't want to risk it. Food and water are extremely limited, considering to find food you have to go out and hunt/fish/pick crops/root(which only lasts so long). Fish and animals need food too, and with walkers and humans dwindling their numbers, they aren't a reliable food source. Crops are nice, but you need water for your crops. You also need something protecting them, or others will steak them. If walkers walk by, they kick up sand/dust, yuck :P. If you kill one over them, they get the blood and guts all over 'em. I wouldn't want to grow crops with walkers underneath the ground either. So food and water is most important. Medicine I'd say isn't that important. If you get an infection, unless it's other than a zombie infection, you're fucked. You can't take medicine for it, nor can it stop you from turning. Patching the wound won't help either, unless you cut it off first. So giving a bit of meds to me was worth more than losing ALL the meds, ALL the food, a lot of the weapons, supplies, etc. They lost EVERYTHING, just because Lilly started a shootout.
Either way, no matter who killed who, unless it was absolutely justified, they would be kicked out or executed, depending on the threat they pose. In such case, I'd of had Lilly executed, sorry Lilly fans.
Oh, don't get me wrong. I left her on the side of the road and let her choke on my dust; had she only killed Ben though... it would've been a much harder call.
Under the circumstances, there's really not that many options beyond shooting somebody or just letting people get away with stuff. I've covered this elsewhere. What other options are there, realistically? Don't trust them with a weapon or near supplies? You'll need to expend man-hours keeping an eye on them. Imprisonment? That's a non-productive group member that's still consuming resources. Hard labor? You're expending precious man-hours to make sure they actually do it. You prefer to exile them? Barring very good luck on their part, that's basically just a far less humane death sentence where you can pretend your hands are clean; if you're willing to do that, you might as well just kill them on the spot.
In all cases, you're either expending time and energy better used on little things like survival, or effectively killing the accused/guilty anyway. Though, given what happened, it's a pretty good argument as to why nobody should be within arm's reach of a weapon when tempers are high.
Prove it. "Small attacks" - the wall is covered in arrows and bullet holes. The fact is even despite Ben's incompetence (and that's generously assuming he intentionally didn't report the bandits approaching) which allowed the bandits to get through the outer gate and give them the element of surprise, they still failed to kill a single group member when the bullets started flying.
There's really nothing good that can be said of your plan in this regard. If you're willing to let them in, sit down, negotiate, etc. with them, you've already lost your chance to regain the initiative if they do something like try to take Clem or another group member as collateral. By then, it's basically too late, you've forfeit the element of surprise... and it still requires hoping that that the murderers and rapists keep their end of the bargain.
Lee knew this when he went out; at no point was there any prospect of legitimately negotiating with the bandits. He was out there solely to get them to drop their guard so Lilly could kill them from the high ground.
If not for Ben, it's reasonably certain the bandits never would've even managed to get past the gate. Why? Because they failed to do so before.
What the hell are you talking about "infected" water? Damn near all water you collect from outdoors should be boiled due to everyday waterborne pathogens; whether it be protozoa, parasitic, bacterial, viral... this is Survivalism 101 stuff, literally one of the very first things you learn about living outdoors. Worrying about the zombie plague doesn't matter if you're killed by a crapping disease like E. Coli or Dysentery because you didn't boil the water you collected.
Long-term, without things like antibiotics, I'd fully expect mundane diseases to kill more people than walkers do. A walker has to slowly lumber up to somebody and bite them; airborne or waterborne diseases don't care about how thick your walls are or how many guns you have, and they're a lot harder to notice.
Hell, even then it's shown atleast in the TV series that boiling is apparently enough to make things like the prison riot gear taken off dead walkers clean and safe enough to use. Nobody balked at Hershel's suggestion to use the formerly walker-infested prison field to grow crops, etc.
I'm not gonna read the last 3-4 pages because they contain a book of information and I feel lazy :P. So what is the latest debate?
P.S Just scanned through the latest posts. Lilly is not a coward. She is definitely messed up but she is not a coward. Ben is a coward, Kenny is a coward... Lilly's not.
@Yami, nice to see you back! Ben may be a coward, but how is Kenny? In my game, the man willingly gave his life to save a pregnant woman from a horde of walkers... not exactly something a coward would do.
Welcome back. And she is a coward, read some other threads because its a bulk of an explanation and I'm busy and too lazy to write it all. I've written about it before as have other people like Jaded.
First and foremost: Paragraphs are your friend.
Second, how many walkers do you think are getting torn in half in rivers, streams, or ponds? You're being just a tad dishonest with that example. The whole exercise in trying to get that walker out in one piece in the first place was to make the well useable to the group... and as previosly noted, boiling the gunk-covered riot gear from the prison walkers was evidently enough to make it useable.
Incidentally, we know from Maggie that the farm's livestock were watered from that well. Given the state of the walker in question, that livestock had to have been watered from the well while that walker was in it. The farm's livestock evidently never became sick and died as a result. That leaves two possibilities; either walkers don't actually contaminate water they're in (the characters only assumed such was the case), or whatever infection(s) walkers carry don't cross species lines. One of the two is demonstrably correct, if not both.
The typical lookout (Carley) was able to spot the St. Johns while at ground level through the wall. Ben had an elevated position; unless he was mind numbingly incompetent or basically a traitor (by permitting the bandits to approach without raising an alarm) there's no way the bandits should have even made it past the treeline without the sentry raising an alarm. It's not like they were all that sneaky wearing white and gray against the background of orange leaves in autumn.
Hell, the smartest thing would've been to just keep letting the bandits impotently fire at the wall. It's one of the basics of military doctrine; it's where the group has a fortified position, little things like cover and concealment... and as a general rule, an attacker needs a three to one advantage to have a reasonably good chance of success (and that assumes roughly equal amounts of competence... which was obviously not the case for the bandits). Make them fight on your terms, not after they've had an oppurtunity to get human shields.
It's not like the bandits negotiated in good faith, and frankly, you'd have to be stupid to think they would. Ben? They originally told him they had his friend (idiot that Ben was, he believed them). Andy'll tell you the bandits killed a bunch of their farmhands. Jolene? She begged the bandits "every way she could" to get her daughter back... that didn't work out well for her.
And I've covered this before. Nobody's producing new medication and every other surviving person is looking for the same resources. There's a reason that during a disaster, you're advised to have things like this before the crap hits the fan. Whatever gets used is gone. Given the specific sort of apocalyptic scenario (infection) in this case; medication like antibiotics were probably used in excess to try and treat it before soceity finally collapsed in its entirety. Even if you are lucky enough to find the stuff lying about? Most people won't even know the majority of antibiotics by name, so they could be looking at somebody's ED pills or birth control for all they know.
True about the pills, and they eventually expire. However, those meds weren't the only ones on earth.
Also, you basically answered your own question with Ben's incompetence haha.
The bandits were bad people, no doubt, but was the answer to actually start a shootout? One person with a semi or bolt action won't take out four bandits alone, and all the group together couldn't take on the mass amounts of walkers.
Yes, the water was contaminated. It was confirmed somewhere, although I can't remember(how fortunate
I'd be stupid to think they would? They were already going to. Give them the supplies, apologize, and give Ben as an offering in good faith(kidding).
If they tried anything foolish, then shoot the hell out of them. Lee had a pistol ready and Lilly was unnoticed with a rifle. As long as there were only four of them, they could have slit their throats once they went inside to negotiate for all I care lol. Then drive off in the RV before the other bandits could react. But at a leader standpoint? Shooting out in such a situation was a seriously bad call. I can't say there were great ones, but with the information she had, it wasn't a bright idea. Say the bandits weren't complete morons. Lilly can only down one at a time, and the bandits had some of the group at gunpoint. She had no idea how many were out in the woods, nor how many walkers were lurking. She should have known they'd be pressed for time with such an option, and such would cost them more dearly. You talk about how meds are important, but you do realize by doing that they lost ALL the meds? Not to mention the food, weapons, ammunition, and other valuable supplies left behind.
And yeah, if one man shoots a walker in a body of water, blood and possibly guts will flow xD. If a walker was already losing blood or had guts hanging out, it would easily contaminate the water. Remember the zombie with the barely connected head? imagine him trying to cross a harsh-flowing river. Bye bye head, hello brains
And no, maybe the walker had newly found it's way into that well. Most likely, considering the walker still had many blood stains and the like on him. Also, for skin, water deprives of oil, and causes skin to shrivel from the loss of oils. That walker looked fine to me lol. Could have just been you know, invulnerable to water though, who knows!? Take info on zombies with popcorn and a grain of salt. Be entertained, but don't always assume :P. If you don't see someone die, they aren't dead. If you don't hear it said or it isn't seen, it isn't true. If someone says something about the apocalypse, don't always believe it. Unless you are 100% sure, do not eat or drink anything that may be contaminated. And of course, never trust walkers! They may ask for hugs, but they want your intestines! 1-10 retardation scale, with a ten being high-fiving walkers
LMFAO, hey, Ken's my friend. Why you say that lately?
And paragraphs are my downfall, I just can't seem to know when to indent xD
When it comes to a finite good like pills, you don't take chances. Especially given that the infrastructure's probably going to be trashed; no maintained roads, etc. (meaning you'll probably be doing more walking than you'd like).
Start a shootout with the bandits? Absolutely. Hell, had they been contested as soon as they were seen (I'm positive Ben deliberately let them get as close as they did, since he was already working with them and the bandits apparently knew to avoid Doug's alarm); odds are they never would've made it in to take hostages in the first place, as was evidently the case the previous times they attacked. The bandits are coming from the woods, incidentally, any walkers attracted by gunfire are also going to come from the woods (as we saw). That leaves a fortified, defended position to the bandits' front, potentially walkers to their rear.
Ben's dealing with the bandits in the first place and allowing them to get to the gate uncontested was what cost the group their supplies. He chose to be the bandits' accomplice, that's nobody's fault but his and to his credit, even he understood it was his fault.
If the bandits "try anything foolish" while they have hostages? It's basically too late, you've forfeit the initiative. Lilly knew this, as did Lee - at no point was Lee actually trying to make a deal with the bandits, at no point does he disagree with Lilly about the plan. The bandits already have guns on the group - the first "foolish" thing they do could be to kill a hostage like Clem to prove they're serious; whoops, too late for you. By striking first you put them on the defensive. That Lilly only had a bolt-action rifle doesn't matter, because the bandits don't know that. Realistically, she wouldn't need to kill everybody in one go anyway, that's something people get from Hollywood: from experience, when bullets start flying, people seek cover. The overwhelming majority of rounds expended in combat are meant to suppress, i.e. force the enemy to keep their heads down so they're more focused on staying alive rather than say, killing people... and it basically worked, the remaining hostage takers were either too confused to know what to do, or ran for cover.
And yeah, you would have to be stupid to think the bandits would deal in good faith. Ben's deal with them started in the first place because they lied about having Ben's friend; Jolene begged them "every way she could" for her little girl and they laughed in her face.
And no, not only was it stated by the creators in the design of the well walker that it looked the way it did because it had been in the water for quite some time (which is incidentally why it doesn't look like... oh, any other walker in the series). It's really pretty damn obvious to anybody that has these things called "eyes". Particularly given the fact that it was so saturated that it took multiple people to lift it out of the well and that basically it split in half under its own weight when they tried to pull it over the lip of the well. So, again, leaves us two options; either animals are immune, or whatever zombies carry doesn't contaminate water - atleast one is demonstably correct, if not both.
Again with an appeal to ignorance. The characters don't know that walkers contaminate wells, because they never confirmed it (not that it's an unwise precaution). They simply assumed the walker contaminated the well.
It's like saying because you should always boil or otherwise purify water found on the ground, such water will always make you sick if you don't. No, it's possible (or probable) it could make you sick. Same thing here.
The only way to actually confirm that the infection can be spread via water or when otherwise ingested? Know that someone drank that sort of water, die and reanimate from no other cause.
What we do know is that the farm's livestock were presently drinking from that well and had in the past: Maggie explicitly says they use that well for the farm's animals, present tense (so any talk about "oh, we don't know" is bunk, they were keeping things like chickens and horses that need frequent access to water, not camels), we know the walker was in that well for a lengthy period of time since the creators confirmed it (not that it should be necessary, since it's kinda obvious to people with you know, eyes).
As such, that still leaves only those two possibilities I've previously mentioned. Because it was confirmed that animals drank water from the well (and that they had to while the walker was in it) and didn't die as a result. It's the scientific method at its most basic; that's why I list those two possibilities, because the evidence we see shows atleast one of the two (if not both) is the case.
Again, paragraphs.
And how old are you? Seriously, I have to ask that if you actually failed to put two and two together here when it came to Jolene. When she called them "rapist monsters" and "Begged them everyway she could"? You really can't think of anything "rapist monsters" might want from a woman? Really? I note you don't even contest the fact that they lied to Ben right off the bat about having his friend.
And are you kidding? Damn near the very first thing the bandit leader suggests is killing them all and taking everything... Lee's the one who tells the bandits they'll need them to gather supplies. Beyond that, assuming Ben's traitorous ass didn't tell them how many people were in the group to begin with, taking hostages is a great way to get anybody else out in the line of fire where they can't defend themselves as well. Hell, something similar is done by terrorists today; where they make an initial strike, wait for guys like first responders to show up to help then strike again solely to guarantee a higher body count.
The fact that Ben deliberately worked against the interests of the group by dealing with the bandits and compromising their security is hardly Lilly's fault. Most people don't get this, but leadership isn't some magical statistic or something where if it's high enough, people just magically fall in line and do what they should. If somebody's dead set on hating whoever's in charge or just doing their own thing; the person in charge can have all the leadership power of Alexander the Great or whatever historical leader strikes your fancy and it won't matter.
No, because if you can't make them follow, you aren't much of a leader. a stem of leader is LEAD. And yeah, I said "rapist monsters" for a reason. However, they took the girl because the woman was of no use to her. She had nothing they wanted except her daughter. And yes it is, at the very least for putting Ben on watch. A kid you barely know to guard the group? Is that not stupid?
Yeah, I know how terrorism works, and no, there were other ways to handle it besides direct violence. They did nothing to Ben but try to scare him. They didn't harm him, and only threatened to kill them. It was a bluff.
And why would it be needed to bring up if EVERYONE with eyes and ears knows it? Whoo, Ben was lied to, wahhhhh, give him a cookie. It's not as bad as killing someone to scare him. And yeah, I like how you point to my age as an actual defense in your point, as if it has anything to do with it. As if that is mature. At this point in time, who really doesn't know what the hell is being stated? I actually figured considering it was so obvious anyone with half a brain could realise it. And also, yeah I write big, bulky, clusterfucks of text, I'm sorry if you can't handle it, I figured people with at least a third grade education could read. :P
No offense dude, but I really don't like to be attacked on what is to be an opinion about a thread. I mean, calm down a little :P Having your own thoughts on it is fine, and arguing my points is as well, but try not to chastise me bro! It's lil harsh lol
LMFAO. That was just... lol
How many actual leaders do you know or have been with? I've known my share of good and bad during my years in the service. One universal constant among them? Not one of them had a mind control ray.
Look at the Oath of Enlistment that I and every other guy take. Why do you think it has us swear to follow the orders of the President and those appointed above us? It's not much of a promise if any non-sucky leader can just force you to obey those orders. God forbid, it's like followers might actually have responsibilities.
More to the point, if I or any other guy in my unit didn't follow an order given by our company commander or deliberately worked against the interest of the people we were with, who do you think would be held accountable, me? Or my C.O.? Hint, you can be charged with disobeying orders. Ditto for treason. As far as I know, there's no "failure to subjugate this one shmuck with the power of your mind" charge.
Ironically enough? New guys are typically the ones given sentry duty, specifically because it is a pretty simple task. Ben being a shit bird that endangered the group for no good reason? That's nobody's fault except Ben's, particularly since he does it again the very next episode.
With Jolene? There's nothing the bandits couldn't have gotten from her little girl that they couldn't get from her. Hell, in Jolene's case, it's implied they did get it and just didn't deliver... and I'm sorry, but if you didn't get that, yeah, I kinda do need to your question your age. We know they lied through their teeth with Ben about his friend. Shock and surprise, guys who have no problem raping and murdering and kill each other over disputes have no qualms about lying.
In that scenario? Especially with these kind of people, you always want to be the one to get off the first shot. Doesn't matter if you're police or military. As the saying goes, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Starting a shootout then? Hardly ideal, it would've been better if the bandits had been contested at the gate (but again, Ben's treason/crapulence), waiting to give them the chance to do something you don't want? Gives them a chance to make things a whole lot worse.
There's a reason we have a fight or flight response; not a fight or flight or maybe invite them over for tea response. Fleeing wasn't an option.
Incidentally, paragraph writing is something learned by third-graders:
http://www.ehow.com/how_8627537_teach-paragraph-writing-thirdgraders.html
Here's my opinion on Lilly:
When we first met her, she seemed overwhelmed with the fact that she was the leader of a group, she couldn't calm anyone down, barely anyone listened to what she said, but she seemed nice - at least. Then at the motor inn, I knew she wouldn't be a good leader, because she was too cold hearted already, after 3 months she lost as much humanity as Rick did in twice or three times the time, and he is kind of insane right now, so it was predictable to me, that she would loose it at some point soon. Then what happened at the creepy dairy had happened, she was depressed, overwhelmed, and had nothing to loose, not a good mix. Of course she blamed Kenny for what he did, but she didn't even try to understand, that he tried to protect every one of them, because we saw one dead guy turn in a matter of minutes, and taking that risk in a locked room would have been stupid, yes... even though he opened his mouth if you did CPR, Kenny did the right thing with killing Larry, his-fucking-heart-stopped-beating, and we had no tools. She said everyone thinks of her as a and with her behaviour in the RV, pointing fingers at random persons she has proven herself to be kind of like a nazi, they killed people because they thought they deserved it, so did she, didn't she? At the side of the road? Because someone had the guts to speak up? Hitler killed people for speaking up, and so did she.
Rick, Lee and Kenny, none of them killed people for their opinion, or because they thought, that they might be dangerous.
Maybe she was a nice person before she's lost it, and maybe I even didn't hate Larry, but the fact that she's lost it and snapped makes her a shitty leader, and she killed Carley, who we know was innocent, thus I don't think very highly of her, I don't want to use the word "hate" it's too strong, "hate" is the feeling I had, when Super-Ben left Clementine to die in E4, or when I heard of Crawford's "no burdens"-policy.
I know I'm writing in a "Pro-Lilly" thread, but I don't know where else to write my opinion on her, if some Lilly fans want to try and convince me she ain't that bad afterall, go ahead and try - I'm listening to reason...
I don't think I need to convince you anything, you seem to know quite enough :P. In case you haven't noticed, maybe the last three pages are almost nothing but Anti-Lilly comments haha. I hate her for reasons of my own, some of which you didn't bring up, but I'll assume you just didn't feel like writing essays. But yeah, not a very nice person :P
Yeah, that was one of the main things I couldn't understand. Like, you are right there, yet somehow things are getting stolen? Stash it somewhere and put a damn lock on, it's not like people have saws or the tools to cut off heavy-duty locks, and they shouldn't be too hard to find, considering not many people need them anymore.
On Larry, I don't blame Lilly for not trying to understand. Most people wouldn't either. Hell, the fact that Kenny didn't end up as a friendly fire casualty down the road shows a lot of restraint on her part, given it was her last family member. It was part of the reason I decided to help Larry; a living, thinking person with a firearm is a much bigger threat to me than a walker is.
Being cold-hearted in her case? It was kinda justified; had Ben been given the boot (as she wanted) in Ep. 2, things would've been quite a bit better for a number of people.
Fact is, while Lilly certainly has her faults (and big ones), she was downright prescient at times. The previous example I cited for Ben. On Kenny? "Wait until it happens to him" (and we know that Kenny actually would've gotten people on the train killed had Lee not stepped up). Ditto for wanting to leave the Dairy after Mark was attacked. And the fact is, even in Ep. 3 she was right for the most part; supplies were being stolen and Ben was responsible (Carley being where she lost it). The choice I made to leave Lilly on the road would've been a lot harder if she had only killed Ben (I was reasonably certain he was guilty too). Hell, she was even right to be hesitant about stealing from the car in Ep. 2, that comes back to bite us in the ass (or arm, in this case) come Ep. 5.
I've covered this elsewhere, but sometimes due process and the like need to go out the window. Hitler and his followers killed for power and because they were nuts. Lilly killed people because she thought they were a threat to the group. Hell, even in the U.S. some of those guarantees of equitable justice and such go out the window; Abraham Lincoln suspended Habeus Corpus, FDR kept a pretty tight lid on the press, etc.
And the fact is, Kenny did basically kill Larry because he thought he might be dangerous. In that case, choosing between him and Lilly is basically flipping a coin; there's no real difference between the two.
Actually, I was given watch duty at the age of 17 before I left for basic and didn't even have a rifle issued to me yet (I enlisted in the split-option program while I was still a junior in high school)... so yeah.
The low guy gets watch duty in the Army... period. Being trained? That was optional. A big chunk of the purpose of being on watch is to alert everyone else if there's a problem. Nobody really expects Private Joe Blow to take care of a problem by himself.
And we don't know all the supplies were in her room, as far as I know. Only the last pack that Lee and Kenny brought in... and odds are she had to you know, sleep or use the facilities at some point anyway.
Carley shouldn't have died cause of amazing aim and ben... IDK he was dumb and gets people killed often so i don't have much defence for him ):
If you like this thread you should see the fuck Kenny thread...it has 65 pages. Is that a record? Anyways..
Some bad things happened to Lilly along the way in my game that may not have occurred in your play through. I saw a person try to lead and keep a group safe under difficult circumstances. This can be taxing but we also had a prominent member of our group, Kenny, undermine her decisions and plans relentlessly.
In my game, Kenny also murdered her father right in front of Lilly while the two of us were trying to revive him with CPR. Maybe Larry would have made it like last time when he collapsed in the pharmacy but guess we'll never know.
Lilly is a strong woman but in talking with her, sitting with her for a while in her hotel room, the murder of her father took it's toll, maybe it even broke her. I tried my best to convince her that I was her friend and that she could count on me but then this issue of a traitor in our group surfaced. Lilly was just sure the traitor was Carley or Ben...well she was partially correct.
I think she snapped after the bandit attack and I wish I could say my hands were clean in this matter. The truth is that I initially helped Kenny undermine Lilly too. But I came to my senses and supported Lilly after episode 1. It begs the question, how clean are your hands? She started out okay and then went crazy....what role did you have in this if any?