^My hands are clean, I went against her pretty much all the time. I killed her father with Kenny and stopped him from turning, allowing everyone the time to escape. I defended Duck at the store from the old man and stood to him when he tried to harm him. I threatened the old man many times, and so Lilly hated me. I wanted to move out of the Inn, which was my choice, and we could all leave her if such was needed, but we couldn't stay, and maybe in another five minutes, it was proved we were right; bandits. And as soon as she killed Carley/Doug, I left her on the side of the road, and I hoped she would die. It wasn't undermining, she wasn't a great leader to start with, and their were people that needed to be protected.
And yes, I've played your way before, but no matter what you do Lilly leaves you and the others to die. She still hates your guts. She still reveals your secret even if you do nothing but take her side. She also kills one of your main friends throughout the entire game. So I feel that is a great stab in the back to me just as I did to Kenny in that playthrough. Kenny is a good friend, if you acted back. He does a lot for you regardless as where Lilly you have to help her a lot. And then she leaves you, and then you are just with Kenny again. So yeah, I don't think kindly to Lilly or her father, and if you've only played once, you should play again on Kenny's side.
I don't feel I undermined her authority, and I may have had a hand n her insanity, but it had been coming for awhile. That and I had no influence on her personality.
The biggest difference between Ken and Lily is Ken helps you out more when you do not choose Ken's side/choice. Pick Shawn over Duck and tell Herschel it is Kenny's fault. He still gives you a ride. At the pharmacy take Larrys side about Duck. He still saves you from Walker/Larry. Etc.... Lily on the other hand NEVER chooses to help when you do not agree with her plan. On a similar note if you back Ken up the whole way. He will follow you til the end like your his family. At one point he says something like Clem/Lee are all the family I have left. But back Lily the whole way. All you end up with is a Cold blooded murdering snitch who lies straight to your face and leaves Clem/Lee to possibly die. I do not know how ANYBODY can choose Lily over Kenny. Team Ken Til The End. Sorry haters that means he is alive.
The biggest difference between Ken and Lily is Ken helps you out more when you do not choose Ken's side/choice. Pick Shawn over Duck and tell Herschel it is Kenny's fault. He still gives you a ride. At the pharmacy take Larrys side about Duck. He still saves you from Walker/Larry. Etc.... Lily on the other hand NEVER chooses to help when you do not agree with her plan. On a similar note if you back Ken up the whole way. He will follow you til the end like your his family. At one point he says something like Clem/Lee are all the family I have left. But back Lily the whole way. All you end up with is a Cold blooded murdering snitch who lies straight to your face and leaves Clem/Lee to possibly die. I do not know how ANYBODY can choose Lily over Kenny. Team Ken Til The End. Sorry haters that means he is alive.
Actually, he only gives you a ride after Katjaa pretty much guilts him into it (note the look she gives him before he re-offers the ride). And let's not forget the fact that Kenny was the one that got everybody kicked off the farm in the first place by letting the owner's son get munched on by hungry corpses.
There's also the fact that Kenny basically leaves you to die multiple times just because you don't help him crush an old guy's skull. Hell, he basically sets you up to die with Danny by saying he'll have your back, etc. in that encounter and then sits back when Danny has a rifle to Lee's head.
Lilly might be colder than Kenny (assuming you side with him), but it's pretty clear that the group probably would've atleast lived longer had her advice been followed in Episodes 2 and 3 rather than Kenny's.
In the course of following Kenny's advice and boat plan? Damn near every surviving group member except Clementine ends up dead within a week, with Kenny himself and Omid/Christa potentially surviving. Hell, as far as I could tell, Kenny never even had a real plan (and Chuck kinda picked up on that) beyond 1.) Get boat 2.) Get to sea 3.) ??? 4.) Profit.
I donnu .I kept my side on lily but tried not to make trouble for Kenny
I think Kenny sucks but about what lily did and stole my RV I could only say:
Go to hell
so the last decision is that lily sucks.I don't care if someone care about her cuz i don't give a shit about her
Hitler and his followers killed for power and because they were nuts.
For power? Killing jews and foreigners had nothing to do with power, they followed a sick ideology, those are different things.
He killed some politicians, because they were a threat to him, he killed people
for going on the streets and saying their opinion.
I agree with the "they were nuts" part though
For power? Killing jews and foreigners had nothing to do with power, they followed a sick ideology, those are different things.
He killed some politicians, because they were a threat to him, he killed people
for going on the streets and saying their opinion.
I agree with the "they were nuts" part though
That's why I included those two conditions. Killing Jews and the like? That was basically because he was nuts (he believed they needed to be dealt with for the good of upstanding Christian people according to Mein Kampf). Killing people with dissenting opinions? That was to gain power or retain it (and/or because he was nuts).
Yeah let's leave it at that though there's one little last thing: he planned to turn on the christians too, just never got that far... anyways you're right - off-topic.
It's not true Lilly will let you die if you do not side with her. It is super hypocritical of you Kenny fans to say that. There is only 1 instance where Lilly leaves you to die and that's right 5 minutes after you've brutally kept her away while Kenny smashed her father's brains out.... I mean, everybody would probably abandon you at that point.
She does keep the group and you save at almost any other occasion, no matter whether you sided with her or not.
Let's not forget she still saves everybody (including Kenny and his family's) ass in episode 3. Do not forget that!
Kenny holds a grudge much longer. If you do not side with him, he will constantly let you die in the simplest of occasions, just out of spite and the need for revenge.
There is only 1 instance where Lilly leaves you to die and that's right 5 minutes after you've brutally kept her away while Kenny smashed her father's brains out.... I mean, everybody would probably abandon you at that point.
I didn't abandon Lilly mere seconds after she brutally blew Carley's brains out for no good goddamn reason, she repaid the favor by leaving everyone to die. I'll be sure to repay the same kindness she showed me should she appear in season two.
I didn't abandon Lilly mere seconds after she brutally blew Carley's brains out for no good goddamn reason, she repaid the favor by leaving everyone to die. I'll be sure to repay the same kindness she showed me should she appear in season two.
It's not true Lilly will let you die if you do not side with her. It is super hypocritical of you Kenny fans to say that. There is only 1 instance where Lilly leaves you to die and that's right 5 minutes after you've brutally kept her away while Kenny smashed her father's brains out.... I mean, everybody would probably abandon you at that point.
She does keep the group and you save at almost any other occasion, no matter whether you sided with her or not.
Let's not forget she still saves everybody (including Kenny and his family's) ass in episode 3. Do not forget that!
Kenny holds a grudge much longer. If you do not side with him, he will constantly let you die in the simplest of occasions, just out of spite and the need for revenge.
Please tell me when Lily saves anybody? Never. Don't say the bandits. Lee saved everyone while Lily hid with her rifle. Lee saved Kat/Carly/Clem/Ben. Not Lily.
Lily is no help to anyone but Larry. When you meet her first. Who saves Duck/Ken/Lee/Clem? Carly/Glen. Lily cusses them for saving a child. Who saves Lee/Clem when the walker comes outta the bathroom Carly. Lily stands there with her thumb in her ass watching. Who risks it all to save Larry? Lee not Lily. Who goes on supply runs? Not Lily. Who does most of watch duties Carly/Ben. Who takes care of all three St johns? Lee Not Lily. What she does do is Snitch Murder and Abandon. Saves who where when? We must of played different versions of this game.
Lily is no help to anyone but Larry. When you meet her first. Who saves Duck/Ken/Lee/Clem? Carly/Glen. Lily cusses them for saving a child. Who saves Lee/Clem when the walker comes outta the bathroom Carly. Lily stands there with her thumb in her ass watching. Who risks it all to save Larry? Lee not Lily. Who goes on supply runs? Not Lily. Who does most of watch duties Carly/Ben. Who takes care of all three St johns? Lee Not Lily. What she does do is Snitch Murder and Abandon. Saves who where when? We must of played different versions of this game.
You really don't like her, huh? Me neihter, especially after reading this, she was incapable of contributing to the group, not to mention to lead it.
lifes saved:
Lilly could save you, if you helped her in the meat locker, when Danny attacked you, and then again when Andy attacked you, both depending on one single choiceLilly: 0 (or 2) - Kenny saved us in the drugstore, and helped finding Clem and saved us on the supply run (if you played your cards right) Kenny: 1 (or 2 or 3)
Please tell me when Lily saves anybody? Never. Don't say the bandits. Lee saved everyone while Lily hid with her rifle. Lee saved Kat/Carly/Clem/Ben. Not Lily.
Lilly fired the first shot, killed the bandit leader and Lee was executing her plan (which incidentally, succeeded) - why the hell shouldn't that qualify? Because what, pickles and freeblibeebs?
You really don't like her, huh? Me neihter, especially after reading this, she was incapable of contributing to the group, not to mention to lead it.
lifes saved:
Lilly could save you, if you helped her in the meat locker, when Danny attacked you, and then again when Andy attacked you, both depending on one single choiceLilly: 0 (or 2) - Kenny saved us in the drugstore, and helped finding Clem and saved us on the supply run (if you played your cards right) Kenny: 1 (or 2 or 3)
The numbers in () are optional rescues.
Winner? Kenny.
Also gave you a ride to Macon. Otherwise you'd be dead. Also got the RV working even though Lilly called it pointless, and it saved EVERYONE'S lives. So you could even call it 5 times. Would have been 6 if Clem hadn't left.
Also gave you a ride to Macon. Otherwise you'd be dead. Also got the RV working even though Lilly called it pointless, and it saved EVERYONE'S lives. So you could even call it 5 times. Would have been 6 if Clem hadn't left.
Kenny's also the reason everybody got kicked off the farm in the first place; what with the letting the landowner's son get eaten. It's also impossible to say Lee/Clem would've died simply because they had to leave the farm. I don't recall Lilly ever saying that fixing the RV was pointless; so feel free to provide a quote.
But ultimately, scoreboard: Under Lilly's leadership the group survived, intact, for three months. In the course of following Kenny's boat plan? Every remaining group member except Clementine ends up dead or MIA within a week; Omid/Christa and Kenny himself only potentially survive the results of Kenny's mess of a plan.
Lily's Leadership is questioned from the moment you meet her. First by Carly/Glen over saving Duck. In the same scene Larry tells her shut up. Follow by Lee saying she cannot control her people. Then Kenny calling her a crazy lady. And this is what you call leadership?Cannot lead if no ones following. Lily's leadership what leadership? Ken hands out orders in the drug store giving everyone jobs. Lee gets the pills. Lee/Carly/Doug/Clem hold down the store so everyone can get out. While Clem is helping save everyone in the store where is Lily's leadship then. She is nowhere to be found Ken stopped Larry from killing Lee. Orginally it is Kens idea to stay at the motor inn. What does Lily do on the farm? Nothing no leadership there either. Kenny's idea to take the food from the car. Kenny states they have to leave because of bandits coming over the wall. Which they do. Ken's RV saves the day. After all that she kills Carly/Doug in cold blood. Snitches on you to justify her actions. Then abandons everyone. Saying the statement Lily's leadership kept them alive is a joke.
Lilly fired the first shot, killed the bandit leader and Lee was executing her plan (which incidentally, succeeded) - why the hell shouldn't that qualify? Because what, pickles and freeblibeebs?
Lee has the conversation entirely in his favor. He could easily(and arguably already did) convince the bandits to leave them alone and continue the deal. This could give the group time to pack up and leave on their own terms, or be better prepared for a bandit attack after they realize they're not getting the supplies again.
Instead, Lilly screws it all up by killing the bandit, initiating a large firefight, drawing walkers to the motor inn and forcing us to abandon it and all of the supplies we had. We could have defused the situation, gathered whatever we could fit into the RV then drive off by choice, but Lilly destroyed our chances at that.
Lee has the conversation entirely in his favor. He could easily(and arguably already did) convince the bandits to leave them alone and continue the deal. This could give the group time to pack up and leave on their own terms, or be better prepared for a bandit attack after they realize they're not getting the supplies again.
Instead, Lilly screws it all up by killing the bandit, initiating a large firefight, drawing walkers to the motor inn and forcing us to abandon it and all of the supplies we had. We could have defused the situation, gathered whatever we could fit into the RV then drive off by choice, but Lilly destroyed our chances at that.
Yeah because the bandits are willing to let you go just like that. Don't be ridiculous. She saves everybody during the bandit raid, whether you are ready to admit it or not.
And about Kenny giving you a ride... that's not much of a favour, after he fucks up your stay at Hershel's. And you know Hershel is still alive at the time when Lee dies, so if you count Kenny giving you a ride as a big favour, I can count it quite the opposite.
Also gave you a ride to Macon. Otherwise you'd be dead. Also got the RV working even though Lilly called it pointless, and it saved EVERYONE'S lives. So you could even call it 5 times. Would have been 6 if Clem hadn't left.
Thanks for adding those points, forgot them... somehow
Lee has the conversation entirely in his favor. He could easily(and arguably already did) convince the bandits to leave them alone and continue the deal. This could give the group time to pack up and leave on their own terms, or be better prepared for a bandit attack after they realize they're not getting the supplies again.
Instead, Lilly screws it all up by killing the bandit, initiating a large firefight, drawing walkers to the motor inn and forcing us to abandon it and all of the supplies we had. We could have defused the situation, gathered whatever we could fit into the RV then drive off by choice, but Lilly destroyed our chances at that.
Exactly that crazy, reckless... wreck of a woman puts everyone's lifes on the line, because she wants to shoot something, to let out the rage and hatred inside her. Or maybe she just lost the ability to think through and reconsider a plan before acting.
Yeah because the bandits are willing to let you go just like that. Don't be ridiculous. She saves everybody during the bandit raid, whether you are ready to admit it or not.
They didn't seem to know about the fact, that the RV actually worked, and yeah, why wouldn't they let us? They don't seem like Einstein & friends, but rather like some dumbass pricks, who think they intimidated us into finally giving them what they want. We coulda just drive off, but Lilly had to start a firefight, and if it wasn't for Carley (if you chose her) or Lee (if you didn't) they would've shot Kenny, Clem, Duck, everyone. It was reckless and stupid. We were just very lucky, that that shitty plan worked out - one more bit of evidence for her to finally have lost it.
And about Kenny giving you a ride... that's not much of a favour, after he fucks up your stay at Hershel's. And you know Hershel is still alive at the time when Lee dies, so if you count Kenny giving you a ride as a big favour, I can count it quite the opposite.
Did you miss the part where Hershel made perfectly clear that he wanted us gone by the day after the one we came? If it wasn't for Ken, we would have walked to Macon, and regarding they started driving in the morning, and arrived in the evening (by car), that would have been a long walk.
Yeah but that's debatable. Otis wasn't a part of Hershel's family but he let him stay didn't he? Same for Rick's group. I believe that Hershel could've been persuaded. As for Lilly, yeah, I would've start a fight too. The Motel was a good place and I wasn't ready to lose it either. Being settle in a zombie apocalypse is much better than being on the road. You prefer to go for the unknown in RV that isn't even properly working, fine, but that doesn't make it the absolute truth.
You see, everything in this game is a matter of perception. For me personally, whenever Kenny had to make a decision, he made the absolute worst. He was dumb, reckless, selfish and cowardly, and I wanted to get rid of him since episode 2.
Lee has the conversation entirely in his favor. He could easily(and arguably already did) convince the bandits to leave them alone and continue the deal. This could give the group time to pack up and leave on their own terms, or be better prepared for a bandit attack after they realize they're not getting the supplies again.
Instead, Lilly screws it all up by killing the bandit, initiating a large firefight, drawing walkers to the motor inn and forcing us to abandon it and all of the supplies we had. We could have defused the situation, gathered whatever we could fit into the RV then drive off by choice, but Lilly destroyed our chances at that.
I've covered this in the past (in this very thread, in fact). Expecting the bandits to act in good faith with any deal is frankly, well, stupid. We're talking about people that rape and murder each other for grins and giggles - look at Jolene.
Lee wasn't sent out there to negotiate; he went out there to distract the bandits, that was the whole point - at no point does he disagree with Lilly's plan either.
And if the bandits decide to do something you don't like (such as say, taking Clem, since we know they have a thing for little girls)? You've basically forfeit the initiative. Hell, they might decide to move into the motel or take the RV; whoops.
There's a reason we have a fight or flight response, not a fight or flight or maybe invite them over for tea response. Fleeing wasn't an option.
I could also just as easily point out that had Ben been kicked out of the group in Episode 2 as Lilly wanted, the bandits probably never would've been in a position to take hostages in the first place. We know from dialogue that the bandits had been attacking for weeks and evidently never even made it past the wall (it's riddled with crossbow bolts and bullet holes) until Ben basically sold out the group.
Was starting a shootout then ideal? No. Despite that, the fact remains every other option is riskier because they require you to expect the raping, murdering bandits to be honest, upstanding people that won't take advantage.
Yeah but that's debatable. Otis wasn't a part of Hershel's family but he let him stay didn't he? Same for Rick's group. I believe that Hershel could've been persuaded.
He let Rick's group stay, yes, but look what it took (barn scene, bar scene) after that he finally let them stay. He wasn't planning to either.
As for Lilly, yeah, I would've start a fight too. The Motel was a good place and I wasn't ready to lose it either. Being settle in a zombie apocalypse is much better than being on the road. You prefer to go for the unknown in RV that isn't even properly working, fine, but that doesn't make it the absolute truth.
I don't say fighting is the wrong way, just not in a hostage situation, when you're the only one who's got a gun. They could have let the bandits walk off, and then they just had to wait and prepare, and strike back. What she did was risking everyone. What if neither one, not Carley, not Lee would have taken the gun and shot the bandits? We don't know, but I think at least some people from our group would be dead - due to that "smart" move.
-There is no such thing as the absolute truth in The Walking Dead or apocalypses at all, that's one of the main reasons the topic fascinates me, just one more reason, why I love this game, the show, and the universe as a whole.
Not even now we can say, what would have happened if she didn't take the shot, too many if-questions, possibilities, variables - whatever you wanna call it.
I've covered this in the past (in this very thread, in fact). Expecting the bandits to act in good faith with any deal is frankly, well, stupid. We're talking about people that rape and murder each other for grins and giggles - look at Jolene.
Lee wasn't sent out there to negotiate; he went out there to distract the bandits, that was the whole point - at no point does he disagree with Lilly's plan either.
And if the bandits decide to do something you don't like (such as say, taking Clem, since we know they have a thing for little girls)? You've basically forfeit the initiative. Hell, they might decide to move into the motel or take the RV; whoops.
There's a reason we have a fight or flight response, not a fight or flight or maybe invite them over for tea response. Fleeing wasn't an option.
I could also just as easily point out that had Ben been kicked out of the group in Episode 2 as Lilly wanted, the bandits probably never would've been in a position to take hostages in the first place. We know from dialogue that the bandits had been attacking for weeks and evidently never even made it past the wall (it's riddled with crossbow bolts and bullet holes) until Ben basically sold out the group.
Was starting a shootout then ideal? No. Despite that, the fact remains every other option is riskier because they require you to expect the raping, murdering bandits to be honest, upstanding people that won't take advantage.
Lee doesn't disagree because he doesn't have time to, Lilly bursts out the window before he can even fully understand exactly what the heck she is talking about. She forces it onto him without a choice.
It is already shown that the bandits will cooperate no matter which dialogue option you choose, so there's no need to fear otherwise. Even if they demanded something extra such as a hostage, it would have been better for Lilly to fire after they're in the middle or end of negotiating the deal, when the bandits have their guard down. Not saying she shouldn't have fired at all, but she picked the worst possible time to do so, which was impatient and careless.
I don't disagree on the part about Ben, though one could just as easily say that if Ben was thrown out, the group would not know that you turn after you die, and Larry could have killed everyone in the meat locker. What ifs don't really help a lot.
Lilly's reasoning is far better than Kenny's but I don't know why you turn a fan topic into a battlefield where you just pour hate. I mean there are plenty of topics for that, why do it here?
Lilly's reasoning is far better than Kenny's but I don't know why you turn a fan topic into a battlefield where you just pour hate. I mean there are plenty of topics for that, why do it here?
It's not hate, it's appreciation for a good villain. Characters are meant to get a reaction, either you hate them or love them. If you don't get either of those then the character has failed.
The fact that so many people despise her is proof that she is a well-written, quality character.
Yeah because the bandits are willing to let you go just like that. Don't be ridiculous. She saves everybody during the bandit raid, whether you are ready to admit it or not.
And about Kenny giving you a ride... that's not much of a favour, after he fucks up your stay at Hershel's. And you know Hershel is still alive at the time when Lee dies, so if you count Kenny giving you a ride as a big favour, I can count it quite the opposite.
In case you haven't realized, even by trying to save his son, Hershel still doesn't want you there! And Kenny still lets you and Clem with him.
Also, yeah they most likely would have. They were humans, in case you couldn't see they had no walker symptoms. They were doing it "because we gotta, that's why!" They were in tough situation, and so you could call them the bully of the school. They'll threaten and maybe want your lunch money, but if you follow them they'll let you go. Not like they grab up your friend and go "I want it everyday or I'll kick his ass". If they took someone hostage, the group wouldn't have been too happy, and would have made the group too unpredictable for the bandits to handle. So they would try not to instigate the group to the best of their ability.
P.S Just scanned through the latest posts. Lilly is not a coward. She is definitely messed up but she is not a coward. Ben is a coward, Kenny is a coward... Lilly's not.
So you don't consider Lilly as a coward who killing someone when their back is turned, stealing a vehicle to save themselves therefore abandoning people in the process, having others do all the hardwork, making others look bad to take the heat off herself, hiding behind her dad?
But you consider Kenny a coward who sacrificed himself to save a woman he just met or put a teenager out of his misery?
^My hands are clean, I went against her pretty much all the time. I killed her father with Kenny and stopped him from turning, allowing everyone the time to escape. I defended Duck at the store from the old man and stood to him when he tried to harm him. I threatened the old man many times, and so Lilly hated me. I wanted to move out of the Inn, which was my choice, and we could all leave her if such was needed, but we couldn't stay, and maybe in another five minutes, it was proved we were right; bandits. And as soon as she killed Carley/Doug, I left her on the side of the road, and I hoped she would die. It wasn't undermining, she wasn't a great leader to start with, and their were people that needed to be protected.
And yes, I've played your way before, but no matter what you do Lilly leaves you and the others to die. She still hates your guts. She still reveals your secret even if you do nothing but take her side. She also kills one of your main friends throughout the entire game. So I feel that is a great stab in the back to me just as I did to Kenny in that playthrough. Kenny is a good friend, if you acted back. He does a lot for you regardless as where Lilly you have to help her a lot. And then she leaves you, and then you are just with Kenny again. So yeah, I don't think kindly to Lilly or her father, and if you've only played once, you should play again on Kenny's side.
I don't feel I undermined her authority, and I may have had a hand n her insanity, but it had been coming for awhile. That and I had no influence on her personality.
I've only played one play through of the game and thought it was a really good story. I was close to Lilly and Carley. They were my best friends in my game and I don't think I want to go back and change that in a replay.
Sometimes you can't change the outcome. Good people die in a ZA and only how you treated them is somewhat under your control.
The best part of this story was my interactions with Lilly. Namely because I started off hating her and her father and our relationship grew to the point where it meant a lot to see her smile when I accepted her offer to go with her in the RV.
I can tell that you are upset about Lilly leaving you behind in the RV. In my game, she left me and Clem behind too. I observed my best friend breaking down over the murder of her father and mistakenly shooting Carley while closing in on a traitor also affected Lilly. I hated to see her go but maybe it was the best thing to go away for awhile and sort things out.
Está muy visto no crees, sacar a Lilly otra vez sería decir que no existen personajes fuertes , que la segunda entrega sería un asco, dijo el país es muy grande y no todos son inútiles, la verdad si sacan otra vez a Lilly no vale la pena comprar el juego, ya todos saben el final.
Lee doesn't disagree because he doesn't have time to, Lilly bursts out the window before he can even fully understand exactly what the heck she is talking about. She forces it onto him without a choice.
It is already shown that the bandits will cooperate no matter which dialogue option you choose, so there's no need to fear otherwise. Even if they demanded something extra such as a hostage, it would have been better for Lilly to fire after they're in the middle or end of negotiating the deal, when the bandits have their guard down. Not saying she shouldn't have fired at all, but she picked the worst possible time to do so, which was impatient and careless.
I don't disagree on the part about Ben, though one could just as easily say that if Ben was thrown out, the group would not know that you turn after you die, and Larry could have killed everyone in the meat locker. What ifs don't really help a lot.
No, their leader says they should "hash out some terms"; which could easily involve letting the rest of his people come in, taking the RV, etc. Again, it requires you to believe that the raping, murdering bandits with a penchant for little girls are really upstanding guys.
Everybody else who tried dealing with the bandits got screwed in the end for the trouble. What's the definition of insanity again? Doing the same thing and expecting a different result.
Actually, Lilly wanted him thrown out after Katjaa was done with Travis/Mr. Parker. Which is incidentally when the Ben tells the group, nothing would've been lost.
No, their leader says they should "hash out some terms"; which could easily involve letting the rest of his people come in, taking the RV, etc. Again, it requires you to believe that the raping, murdering bandits with a penchant for little girls are really upstanding guys.
Everybody else who tried dealing with the bandits got screwed in the end for the trouble. What's the definition of insanity again? Doing the same thing and expecting a different result.
Actually, Lilly wanted him thrown out after Katjaa was done with Travis/Mr. Parker. Which is incidentally when the Ben tells the group, nothing would've been lost.
Lilly immediately objects to their entrance as soon as they open the gate, way before the walker situation even happens. She doesn't specifically talk about kicking him out for the rest of the episode.
The bandits' previous dealings with Ben show that they have no need for hostages, all they had to do was say they had one already and they'll get what they want. It worked for them once, and their general level of intelligence dictates that they'll very likely do it again.
They could have easily stormed the motor inn during the period of time when they were receiving the meds from Ben, then proceed to take over if they wanted to. Why did they not move in when making the deal with Ben? For all they knew he could have informed the entire group of their deal.
In their first deal, they don't move in or take anyone hostage, they just receive the supplies. To expect simple-minded bandits to do something entirely different for essentially the same deal(after they've seen that it already works) is, indeed, insane.
Lee had no choice but to follow Lily's crazy plan. What is he going to do? Argue with her? Tackle her? Not with bandits holding Clem. Lee could of made terms. Agreed to half the supplies then abandon the place in a day or so. The bandits held up their end with Ben for three days more than enough time to get out.
Lilly immediately objects to their entrance as soon as they open the gate, way before the walker situation even happens. She doesn't specifically talk about kicking him out for the rest of the episode.
The bandits' previous dealings with Ben show that they have no need for hostages, all they had to do was say they had one already and they'll get what they want. It worked for them once, and their general level of intelligence dictates that they'll very likely do it again.
They could have easily stormed the motor inn during the period of time when they were receiving the meds from Ben, then proceed to take over if they wanted to. Why did they not move in when making the deal with Ben? For all they knew he could have informed the entire group of their deal.
In their first deal, they don't move in or take anyone hostage, they just receive the supplies. To expect simple-minded bandits to do something entirely different for essentially the same deal(after they've seen that it already works) is, indeed, insane.
Blatantly false. Lilly specifically says "they can stay until Katjaa's done working on that guy, but then after that they have to go." due to the fact they just don't have enough food to take in new people.
The closest anyone comes to advocating kicking them out right off the bat is Larry when he says that Lee and company shouldn't have brought them back in the first place.
I'm not sure the fact the bandits lie through their teeth during their "negotiations" with Ben is supposed to help your case not to do your damndest to kill them at the first oppurtunity before they screw you over. Quite the contrary.
We also don't know where and when Ben originally made the deal with the bandits. What Ben stole was left outside the gate. We can also tell the bandits failed to breach the wall prior to that, given its condition when we see it in Ep. 3 (the group had been weathering bandit attacks for weeks and never sustained casualies).
Anyone who'd think dealing with the bandits wouldn't screw you over in the end is asking for a Darwin Award. Particularly since we have examples of it happening to everybody else that tried. To go back to something previously, the reason we have a fight or flight response? Whatever guy was carrying the genes for the "invite enemies over for tea" response didn't live long enough to pollute the gene pool.
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And yes, I've played your way before, but no matter what you do Lilly leaves you and the others to die. She still hates your guts. She still reveals your secret even if you do nothing but take her side. She also kills one of your main friends throughout the entire game. So I feel that is a great stab in the back to me just as I did to Kenny in that playthrough. Kenny is a good friend, if you acted back. He does a lot for you regardless as where Lilly you have to help her a lot. And then she leaves you, and then you are just with Kenny again. So yeah, I don't think kindly to Lilly or her father, and if you've only played once, you should play again on Kenny's side.
I don't feel I undermined her authority, and I may have had a hand n her insanity, but it had been coming for awhile. That and I had no influence on her personality.
Actually, he only gives you a ride after Katjaa pretty much guilts him into it (note the look she gives him before he re-offers the ride). And let's not forget the fact that Kenny was the one that got everybody kicked off the farm in the first place by letting the owner's son get munched on by hungry corpses.
There's also the fact that Kenny basically leaves you to die multiple times just because you don't help him crush an old guy's skull. Hell, he basically sets you up to die with Danny by saying he'll have your back, etc. in that encounter and then sits back when Danny has a rifle to Lee's head.
Lilly might be colder than Kenny (assuming you side with him), but it's pretty clear that the group probably would've atleast lived longer had her advice been followed in Episodes 2 and 3 rather than Kenny's.
In the course of following Kenny's advice and boat plan? Damn near every surviving group member except Clementine ends up dead within a week, with Kenny himself and Omid/Christa potentially surviving. Hell, as far as I could tell, Kenny never even had a real plan (and Chuck kinda picked up on that) beyond 1.) Get boat 2.) Get to sea 3.) ??? 4.) Profit.
I think Kenny sucks but about what lily did and stole my RV I could only say:
Go to hell
so the last decision is that lily sucks.I don't care if someone care about her cuz i don't give a shit about her
For power? Killing jews and foreigners had nothing to do with power, they followed a sick ideology, those are different things.
He killed some politicians, because they were a threat to him, he killed people
for going on the streets and saying their opinion.
I agree with the "they were nuts" part though
That's why I included those two conditions. Killing Jews and the like? That was basically because he was nuts (he believed they needed to be dealt with for the good of upstanding Christian people according to Mein Kampf). Killing people with dissenting opinions? That was to gain power or retain it (and/or because he was nuts).
Anywho, off-topic.
Yeah let's leave it at that
She does keep the group and you save at almost any other occasion, no matter whether you sided with her or not.
Let's not forget she still saves everybody (including Kenny and his family's) ass in episode 3. Do not forget that!
Kenny holds a grudge much longer. If you do not side with him, he will constantly let you die in the simplest of occasions, just out of spite and the need for revenge.
I didn't abandon Lilly mere seconds after she brutally blew Carley's brains out for no good goddamn reason, she repaid the favor by leaving everyone to die. I'll be sure to repay the same kindness she showed me should she appear in season two.
Please tell me when Lily saves anybody? Never. Don't say the bandits. Lee saved everyone while Lily hid with her rifle. Lee saved Kat/Carly/Clem/Ben. Not Lily.
You really don't like her, huh? Me neihter, especially after reading this, she was incapable of contributing to the group, not to mention to lead it.
lifes saved:
Lilly could save you, if you helped her in the meat locker, when Danny attacked you, and then again when Andy attacked you, both depending on one single choice Lilly: 0 (or 2) - Kenny saved us in the drugstore, and helped finding Clem and saved us on the supply run (if you played your cards right) Kenny: 1 (or 2 or 3)
The numbers in () are optional rescues.
Winner? Kenny.
Lilly fired the first shot, killed the bandit leader and Lee was executing her plan (which incidentally, succeeded) - why the hell shouldn't that qualify? Because what, pickles and freeblibeebs?
Also gave you a ride to Macon. Otherwise you'd be dead. Also got the RV working even though Lilly called it pointless, and it saved EVERYONE'S lives. So you could even call it 5 times. Would have been 6 if Clem hadn't left.
Kenny's also the reason everybody got kicked off the farm in the first place; what with the letting the landowner's son get eaten. It's also impossible to say Lee/Clem would've died simply because they had to leave the farm. I don't recall Lilly ever saying that fixing the RV was pointless; so feel free to provide a quote.
But ultimately, scoreboard: Under Lilly's leadership the group survived, intact, for three months. In the course of following Kenny's boat plan? Every remaining group member except Clementine ends up dead or MIA within a week; Omid/Christa and Kenny himself only potentially survive the results of Kenny's mess of a plan.
Lee has the conversation entirely in his favor. He could easily(and arguably already did) convince the bandits to leave them alone and continue the deal. This could give the group time to pack up and leave on their own terms, or be better prepared for a bandit attack after they realize they're not getting the supplies again.
Instead, Lilly screws it all up by killing the bandit, initiating a large firefight, drawing walkers to the motor inn and forcing us to abandon it and all of the supplies we had. We could have defused the situation, gathered whatever we could fit into the RV then drive off by choice, but Lilly destroyed our chances at that.
And about Kenny giving you a ride... that's not much of a favour, after he fucks up your stay at Hershel's. And you know Hershel is still alive at the time when Lee dies, so if you count Kenny giving you a ride as a big favour, I can count it quite the opposite.
Thanks for adding those points, forgot them... somehow
Exactly that crazy, reckless... wreck of a woman puts everyone's lifes on the line, because she wants to shoot something, to let out the rage and hatred inside her. Or maybe she just lost the ability to think through and reconsider a plan before acting.
They didn't seem to know about the fact, that the RV actually worked, and yeah, why wouldn't they let us? They don't seem like Einstein & friends, but rather like some dumbass pricks, who think they intimidated us into finally giving them what they want. We coulda just drive off, but Lilly had to start a firefight, and if it wasn't for Carley (if you chose her) or Lee (if you didn't) they would've shot Kenny, Clem, Duck, everyone. It was reckless and stupid. We were just very lucky, that that shitty plan worked out - one more bit of evidence for her to finally have lost it.
Did you miss the part where Hershel made perfectly clear that he wanted us gone by the day after the one we came? If it wasn't for Ken, we would have walked to Macon, and regarding they started driving in the morning, and arrived in the evening (by car), that would have been a long walk.
You see, everything in this game is a matter of perception. For me personally, whenever Kenny had to make a decision, he made the absolute worst. He was dumb, reckless, selfish and cowardly, and I wanted to get rid of him since episode 2.
I've covered this in the past (in this very thread, in fact). Expecting the bandits to act in good faith with any deal is frankly, well, stupid. We're talking about people that rape and murder each other for grins and giggles - look at Jolene.
Lee wasn't sent out there to negotiate; he went out there to distract the bandits, that was the whole point - at no point does he disagree with Lilly's plan either.
And if the bandits decide to do something you don't like (such as say, taking Clem, since we know they have a thing for little girls)? You've basically forfeit the initiative. Hell, they might decide to move into the motel or take the RV; whoops.
There's a reason we have a fight or flight response, not a fight or flight or maybe invite them over for tea response. Fleeing wasn't an option.
I could also just as easily point out that had Ben been kicked out of the group in Episode 2 as Lilly wanted, the bandits probably never would've been in a position to take hostages in the first place. We know from dialogue that the bandits had been attacking for weeks and evidently never even made it past the wall (it's riddled with crossbow bolts and bullet holes) until Ben basically sold out the group.
Was starting a shootout then ideal? No. Despite that, the fact remains every other option is riskier because they require you to expect the raping, murdering bandits to be honest, upstanding people that won't take advantage.
He let Rick's group stay, yes, but look what it took (barn scene, bar scene) after that he finally let them stay. He wasn't planning to either.
I don't say fighting is the wrong way, just not in a hostage situation, when you're the only one who's got a gun. They could have let the bandits walk off, and then they just had to wait and prepare, and strike back. What she did was risking everyone. What if neither one, not Carley, not Lee would have taken the gun and shot the bandits? We don't know, but I think at least some people from our group would be dead - due to that "smart" move.
-There is no such thing as the absolute truth in The Walking Dead or apocalypses at all, that's one of the main reasons the topic fascinates me, just one more reason, why I love this game, the show, and the universe as a whole.
Not even now we can say, what would have happened if she didn't take the shot, too many if-questions, possibilities, variables - whatever you wanna call it.
I don't know if I would say "everything" but at least the very most things, yes I gotta agree with you there.
Lee doesn't disagree because he doesn't have time to, Lilly bursts out the window before he can even fully understand exactly what the heck she is talking about. She forces it onto him without a choice.
It is already shown that the bandits will cooperate no matter which dialogue option you choose, so there's no need to fear otherwise. Even if they demanded something extra such as a hostage, it would have been better for Lilly to fire after they're in the middle or end of negotiating the deal, when the bandits have their guard down. Not saying she shouldn't have fired at all, but she picked the worst possible time to do so, which was impatient and careless.
I don't disagree on the part about Ben, though one could just as easily say that if Ben was thrown out, the group would not know that you turn after you die, and Larry could have killed everyone in the meat locker. What ifs don't really help a lot.
/end
Lilly lacks reason and critical thinking and Kenny has the right motivation but the wrong execution.
It's not hate, it's appreciation for a good villain. Characters are meant to get a reaction, either you hate them or love them. If you don't get either of those then the character has failed.
The fact that so many people despise her is proof that she is a well-written, quality character.
In case you haven't realized, even by trying to save his son, Hershel still doesn't want you there! And Kenny still lets you and Clem with him.
Also, yeah they most likely would have. They were humans, in case you couldn't see they had no walker symptoms. They were doing it "because we gotta, that's why!" They were in tough situation, and so you could call them the bully of the school. They'll threaten and maybe want your lunch money, but if you follow them they'll let you go. Not like they grab up your friend and go "I want it everyday or I'll kick his ass". If they took someone hostage, the group wouldn't have been too happy, and would have made the group too unpredictable for the bandits to handle. So they would try not to instigate the group to the best of their ability.
So you don't consider Lilly as a coward who killing someone when their back is turned, stealing a vehicle to save themselves therefore abandoning people in the process, having others do all the hardwork, making others look bad to take the heat off herself, hiding behind her dad?
But you consider Kenny a coward who sacrificed himself to save a woman he just met or put a teenager out of his misery?
I've only played one play through of the game and thought it was a really good story. I was close to Lilly and Carley. They were my best friends in my game and I don't think I want to go back and change that in a replay.
Sometimes you can't change the outcome. Good people die in a ZA and only how you treated them is somewhat under your control.
The best part of this story was my interactions with Lilly. Namely because I started off hating her and her father and our relationship grew to the point where it meant a lot to see her smile when I accepted her offer to go with her in the RV.
I can tell that you are upset about Lilly leaving you behind in the RV. In my game, she left me and Clem behind too. I observed my best friend breaking down over the murder of her father and mistakenly shooting Carley while closing in on a traitor also affected Lilly. I hated to see her go but maybe it was the best thing to go away for awhile and sort things out.
No, their leader says they should "hash out some terms"; which could easily involve letting the rest of his people come in, taking the RV, etc. Again, it requires you to believe that the raping, murdering bandits with a penchant for little girls are really upstanding guys.
Everybody else who tried dealing with the bandits got screwed in the end for the trouble. What's the definition of insanity again? Doing the same thing and expecting a different result.
Actually, Lilly wanted him thrown out after Katjaa was done with Travis/Mr. Parker. Which is incidentally when the Ben tells the group, nothing would've been lost.
Lilly immediately objects to their entrance as soon as they open the gate, way before the walker situation even happens. She doesn't specifically talk about kicking him out for the rest of the episode.
The bandits' previous dealings with Ben show that they have no need for hostages, all they had to do was say they had one already and they'll get what they want. It worked for them once, and their general level of intelligence dictates that they'll very likely do it again.
They could have easily stormed the motor inn during the period of time when they were receiving the meds from Ben, then proceed to take over if they wanted to. Why did they not move in when making the deal with Ben? For all they knew he could have informed the entire group of their deal.
In their first deal, they don't move in or take anyone hostage, they just receive the supplies. To expect simple-minded bandits to do something entirely different for essentially the same deal(after they've seen that it already works) is, indeed, insane.
Blatantly false. Lilly specifically says "they can stay until Katjaa's done working on that guy, but then after that they have to go." due to the fact they just don't have enough food to take in new people.
The closest anyone comes to advocating kicking them out right off the bat is Larry when he says that Lee and company shouldn't have brought them back in the first place.
I'm not sure the fact the bandits lie through their teeth during their "negotiations" with Ben is supposed to help your case not to do your damndest to kill them at the first oppurtunity before they screw you over. Quite the contrary.
We also don't know where and when Ben originally made the deal with the bandits. What Ben stole was left outside the gate. We can also tell the bandits failed to breach the wall prior to that, given its condition when we see it in Ep. 3 (the group had been weathering bandit attacks for weeks and never sustained casualies).
Anyone who'd think dealing with the bandits wouldn't screw you over in the end is asking for a Darwin Award. Particularly since we have examples of it happening to everybody else that tried. To go back to something previously, the reason we have a fight or flight response? Whatever guy was carrying the genes for the "invite enemies over for tea" response didn't live long enough to pollute the gene pool.
Read the points that others have made and you'll see why she's much worse than the villains you encounter.
Probably the same reason people despise those who murder their loved ones...