Team Lily to the end (appreciation thread)
This topic contains Comic book spoilers. Read at your own risk
I guess I may be the only one here who would still support Lily if she shows up at some future point in time.
Why?
I appreciate her leadership skills, her selflessness (having to make all those little decisions is really difficult) and her reasoning. She tried to keep this group together, she did her very best but some other people...like Kenny always tried to have it their way, always consider what's only best for his family.
I think we all agree it was difficult giving the rations the first time in episode two. We got a glimpse of what she has to do every day. People hated us for those choices, so they hate her even more for having to do it every day. But there's no one else who would do it.
She was still pretty reasonable until Kenny murdered her father. People can complain that he saved them and all that crap... but you couldn't have known for sure and that's the truth. He overreacted and again being the selfish asshole he is, he did the easiest choice for him. Eliminate the enemy and undermine the leader's authority.
In episode 3 we see things haven't changed. Lily is still the only one to really tries to protect the group. Lee, of course, helps always and as much as he can, but others like Kenny... they didn't even feel bad for what they did in episode 2. Kenny ruined this group and yet he still wanted things to go his way. He kept pushing Lily without really doing anything for the group. He was determined to abandon all.
Carley... she didn't really do anything. She could've stepped in and helped Lily when she saw she was about to snap... but she didn't. The only thing she actually did was tease Lee, look cute, and avoid participation in almost every important discussion. The downfall in episode 3 is partially her fault as well.
When the bandits attacked the group it was again Lily that came to the rescue to a group that hated her. Kenny wouldn't swallow my disrespect for him and actually tried to get me killed too many times in this episode.
Ben... and Kenny really started a chain reaction. With both their stupidity combined they managed to indirectly kill Carley, Katjaa and Duck as well destroy the group from within.
Both cowards and both DUBM as a bag of hammers.
I would so love to see them gone in episode 4 & 5. I don't need stupid people in my group, people who know nothing about responsibility or humanity.
It was sad to see Lily snap but I guess there is a line as to where a person can take it. In the end of the day I'm sure she'll regret her choices and will eventually learn from them. She kills Lorry cause she believes they are threatening her group. When she sees how wrong she was she offs the Governor. That's a pretty redeeming deed in my book, one that clearly shows she actually develops.
I would certainly love to see more of her in future episodes/seasons.
So, am I the only one?
Even if I am, I will still be defending this position to the end :P
I guess I may be the only one here who would still support Lily if she shows up at some future point in time.
Why?
I appreciate her leadership skills, her selflessness (having to make all those little decisions is really difficult) and her reasoning. She tried to keep this group together, she did her very best but some other people...like Kenny always tried to have it their way, always consider what's only best for his family.
I think we all agree it was difficult giving the rations the first time in episode two. We got a glimpse of what she has to do every day. People hated us for those choices, so they hate her even more for having to do it every day. But there's no one else who would do it.
She was still pretty reasonable until Kenny murdered her father. People can complain that he saved them and all that crap... but you couldn't have known for sure and that's the truth. He overreacted and again being the selfish asshole he is, he did the easiest choice for him. Eliminate the enemy and undermine the leader's authority.
In episode 3 we see things haven't changed. Lily is still the only one to really tries to protect the group. Lee, of course, helps always and as much as he can, but others like Kenny... they didn't even feel bad for what they did in episode 2. Kenny ruined this group and yet he still wanted things to go his way. He kept pushing Lily without really doing anything for the group. He was determined to abandon all.
Carley... she didn't really do anything. She could've stepped in and helped Lily when she saw she was about to snap... but she didn't. The only thing she actually did was tease Lee, look cute, and avoid participation in almost every important discussion. The downfall in episode 3 is partially her fault as well.
When the bandits attacked the group it was again Lily that came to the rescue to a group that hated her. Kenny wouldn't swallow my disrespect for him and actually tried to get me killed too many times in this episode.
Ben... and Kenny really started a chain reaction. With both their stupidity combined they managed to indirectly kill Carley, Katjaa and Duck as well destroy the group from within.
Both cowards and both DUBM as a bag of hammers.
I would so love to see them gone in episode 4 & 5. I don't need stupid people in my group, people who know nothing about responsibility or humanity.
It was sad to see Lily snap but I guess there is a line as to where a person can take it. In the end of the day I'm sure she'll regret her choices and will eventually learn from them. She kills Lorry cause she believes they are threatening her group. When she sees how wrong she was she offs the Governor. That's a pretty redeeming deed in my book, one that clearly shows she actually develops.
I would certainly love to see more of her in future episodes/seasons.
So, am I the only one?
Even if I am, I will still be defending this position to the end :P This discussion has been closed.
Comments
I think she overreacted hardcore but so did Kenny in the freezer... At least she is consistent. Kenny on the other hand.
Freezer Kenny: HULK HEAD-SMASH LARRY.
That thing happens before the train Kenny: PFFT... HE WON'T TURN... KEEP HIM NEAR ALL THE OTHER UNINFECTED PEOPLE...
What a jackass... I mean I understand why he did it but he should have thought about that before smashing Larrys head in.
SPOILERS
Carley died. Why spend time crying about her? She was missing most of episode 2 anyway...
Because no matter what happens she was the one who we could count on, and trust. As far as I'm concerned, I'm on Team Lee
Carley died. Why spend time crying about her? She was missing most of episode 2 anyway...
The13thRonin I agree. When you do something as drastic as that you, you can't really expect everything to return back to normal. I think all this would've been avoided if he just left the group right after episode 2. He started all this.
She can shoot walkers but nothing else. Big groups need a leader or that's what happens.
Exactly. Not worried about her or Doug (whom I saved). Lilly in particular didn't bring anything to my game, in which she moped for three episodes and then bailed.
You know what happened? She cracked and killed someone, some leader. I appreciate for what's she done but she took it to far this time. It was unnecessary. She's not capable of being the leader anymore, she's run her course. I would not let her join my group if the decision allowed me. And plus Carly was always honest with me.
SonnyN18, of course she can't be the leader atm. At least not until post-Woodbury events. She is not the only one to blame for that...
I believe that after she kills the Governor she will get a hold of her life. She's a figther, she will endure.
MakersWax, not to be rude, mate, but if she didn't bring anything to your game then this isn't your thread. This is a thread for people who were actually affected by her story and regard her as something worth discussing.
In my opinion her story and the entire downfall are much more interesting and thought provoking than some wasted silly Carley-Lee romance all seem to be crying about.
If we blame the bandit raid on anyone, it can't be Kenny. Probably Ben for going behind our backs and not telling us about the deal, but Kenny fixed up the RV which allowed the group to escape. If he hadn't it's likely that no one would have made it out of the motor inn alive. And Lilly's reasoning went only as far as Larry. It was really him in charge if you think about it, because she never went against him. If she stepped out of line once with him, she was always quick to retract it. Kenny's no saint, but neither is Lilly.
And Carley/Doug's death is on Lilly, she pulled the trigger. No matter her mental state, she murdered them as much, if not more than Kenny murdered Larry. She's a danger to the group now. I personally would not let her back in, and I left her on that road without a second thought. She's no better than Kenny or Lee or anyone else. She even drives off with the RV and leaves you all stranded at the train if you take her with you after that. She straight up lies to you and says that she'll take you and Clem with her if you agree to leave in the RV, and then immediately drives away after you step out. Can't trust her any more than Kenny, or Ben, or Chuck, or anyone who isn't named Lee Everett.
Alright, if u really want to do this silly appreciation thing then I'll leave you to it
That's something they didn't offer Larry. We've discussed this a lot in the
**** Kenny thread, but there were better ways of handling that Larry situation.
And yeah, it's Kenny's fault because hadn't he killed Larry in that brutal way, Lilly would never snap and off Carley/Doug.
Had he left after episode 2, I think she wouldn't snap. However, having not only to look at him every day, but also being pushed and blamed for every bad thing that happens by that same guy that murdered your father in cold blood, I'm not sure who wouldn't snap.
I agree that she became unreliable at the middle of part 3 but I still think she will be able to redeem herself in the future. We know she does.
I my playthrough I didn't accept her offer so things went differently for me, but if what you say is true I find it a bit inconsistent. I've been on her side for all the episodes so far, and have I decided to join her I think it would be only natural if she accepted us with Clem. I mean I was the only one she could trust in my game.
SonnyN18, I was mostly referring to MakersWax, not to you. I do not mind having a decent conversation and exchanging ideas.
Yeah, thats obvious but I was just looking at other threads
Lily is actually a persona that I can relate with, save for the "killing on a hunch" deal. As a matter of fact, Lily could be my sister, plain out. Why? Larry!
Lily actually seems a lot more trustworthy, in my opinion, than Kenny. She has expressed concerns for the entire group, where Kenny hasn't. I think she's just been taken out of context, in some sense, and made to look like a royal bitch. Lily seems to have a genuine concern for the children of the group (Seen when she smiles down at Clem kicking the soccer ball in Ep. 2) and is always voicing that concern for the group when the situation arises. Kenny is always just yelling about his family, and that's understandable, but he doesn't really express too much of a concern for others, in my opinion.
Now, a lot of us hated Lily for her actions outside of the RV, on the highway. Yeah, I'll admit, she went a little overboard, but look at the situation, too. Your supplies are running out, you probably haven't had a bath in months, you were betrayed by someone you were looking out for, your dad was killed by one of your group members (I don't know about you, but if that were me, Kenny would be walking around with a new one torn into his ass), and so on. Think about that situation. Everyone can state that they would have handled that situation differently, but the problem is, most people won't have that experience in their life, to that extent.
The lack of evidence is what made Lily look like the bad guy (or girl) in that scenario, and that's acceptable. But with her mindset, not being much different than my own, and given the circumstances, I could see that outcome. As for Lily blurting out the details of your past, that's just human nature. It's called mudslinging, and it was used in the defense of everyone turning on her for her actions. Were her actions just? Maybe not, but that was her mind frame and I could see a situation like that happening. The only difference is, we're an audience, and see more of their daily lives than we would if we took a first person point of view.
When they found the bag of medication, and Ben confessed, in a sense, lily was right. The only problem was, she didn't see the big picture. I think that's all she's guilty of. Oh, and for those that got ditched, yeah, I was mad, too. However, maybe that was her way of saying she screwed up, and the group would be better off without her. It was a messed up plan of action, but lots of things are messed up in the spur of the moment. When you (Lee) went for the pencil, she could have easily snuck up on you and broke your neck.
All in all, Lily's judgement is a little off, and considering what she's been through, I don't completely blame her. Am I defending her, until the end? Nah, I'm still on team "me" (Not Lee, though), but I wouldn't mind having her back. I'll even say she was the lesser of two evils. In a perfect world, I'd be out on my own, only utilizing people for trade and supplies, if need be, but TWD stuck us in a group.
Heck, I'd even go as far as to say there needs to be a Larry appreciation thread. Just think if you finally got on his good side, you'd have a walking pile-driver backing you up. :P Or, a 6'4" 300 pound, pissed off, dead guy eating your face. That's the beauty of the game, it allows people to perceive things differently.
tl;dr?: Lily and Larry rocked ass!
Hey TTG, mind allowing me to make a team "me" by letting us customize a protagonist sometime down the road?
I totally agree! I'm was a little mad with her but I can forgive her if she comes back and shows me she's more stable.
Kenny, I don't hate him anymore, he was punished enough. He destroyed the group and fate destroyed his family. The problem with him is that I think he is more unstable than Lily ever was. He's always causing the problems, screaming around and putting people on edge. I can't stand him really. I want him gone for good. He's a ticking bomb. How knows how long will it takes until he decides life no longer has a meaning and doom us all.
As a loyal Team Kennyist. That shit was different, yo.
Lilly's dad was dead. The rules were established that everyone is infected and will reanimate regardless. Plus he was an asshole. It seems to be a genetic trait.
With Duck's case, it was a one-off bite. The first time a major character has been bitten. While it's easy to write-off a random homeless looking girl surrounded by walkers. It's harder to kill a sick kid outright.
Actually, we don't know that he was dead. When you assist Lily, and if you're quick enough (Supposedly), before Kenny smashes his head in, it seems like his lips move, like he was trying to say something (I swear his eyes fluttered a bit, too). It was hinted by a TTG member, in another thread, that this might have been the case (He said it in a way to imply they put a lot of hidden bits and pieces in the game).
That's the beauty of it, though. We'll never know. Kenny only "thought" he was dead, he never allowed for time to check on vitals after Lee worked on him. Even if he did turn, I'm sure it would have taken a second for him to get up. During that time, he could have been held down and crushed with the salt lick. Or crushed when he was about to get up, or something.
For all we know, Kenny could be a cold blooded murderer as well. In that case, Lee, Lily AND Kenny all have something in common.
In my playthrough, he didn't tell Katjaa what he did to Larry. I guess he knows he's a cold blooded murderer and he's afraid of her reaction. In my game she regards him as a bit unstable anyway...
Lilly's shooting of Carley was flat-out overt murder. Kenny's choice was circumstantial. He made the most logical choice imo. I sided with him because of that.
But then again I've overtly murdered characters in this game as Lee. The SaveLots woman for example. The Brothers Johns. So who am I to judge lol.
It just goes to show: We're all going to Zombie Hell.
Not exactly. I agree we might have to put Larry down but there were other, better ways of doing it. Fu**ing up the leader with such a cold blood murder and then saying "I had to, it was necessary" this was the beginning of the end. He started destroying this group, he drove Lily to this state of mind. In told him in the end of episode 2. "You destroyed this group and murdered 2 lives" Lily's (not literally ofc) and Larry's. I blame everything that has happened since that night on him.
You can't just kill one of your own that way and expect this group to survive. We tore apart and Carley was the scapegoat.
Then Kenny was punished by fate. He clearly showed that if it was his son or wife in the meat locker he wouldn't have smashed their heads. It wasn't the right thing to do in my eyes and it never will.
I also didn't kill Joline and killed the poor girl in the beginning of ep 3. I couldn't have let her being eaten alive. I put Duck out of his misery and killed both the Saint John's brothers. I'm always looking for my own. Even if it is Kenny or Ben, I will still try to save them. I would like to see them gone though.
Guys I have some problems. I can't understand how is this possible - http://walkingdead.wikia.com/wiki/Everett_Ray_Caul if her father is Larry. The death scene described in that scene has nothing to do with what happened in the game. I thought Lilly (game) and Lilly Caul (comic book) were the same person? Am I missing something?
Thanks for the post. I agree with you 100%. The only thing I would add is that when Lilly ditched us (Lee and Clem) I was not upset. She had saved Lee's life back when Andy was about to put Lee's face in the electric fence (and with Danny as well). It was as if we both said "we're even" as she paused and then drove away.
I guess I'll have to wait for the book ... and damn... I really like that cover! http://walkingdead.wikia.com/wiki/The_Walking_Dead:_The_Road_To_Woodbury
I guess the book will be released before episode 4 :P
Irony at its finest.
secondly, carly was much more usefull than lilly. I dont know what your talking about that she never spoke up im pretty sure when lilly completely lost her mind and blindly accused her of stealing she stood up for herself. As for spliting up the group there is noone else to blame besides lilly. usually shooting another member of the group after losing her mind would cause the group to split.
Also she bought the responsibility and "leadership" on herself. and as it turns out kenny was right- the group should have left the motel earlier. you than continue to place blame on everyone besides lilly when it is clearly lillys fault as to why she lost her mind. haha i hope you dont seriously say that its others ppl fault for not reading her mind. your best case is to atleast split the blame with kenny.
fact is lilly saw that her power was diminishing and rightly so, so when carly put her in her place she couldnt handle it. she has no standout characteristics that helped the group in anyway. i personally think you take this stance just to be different... hipster.
honestly i give lilly credit for her actions when the bandits attacked, and for saving lee but thats about all. leadership wise, she was one of the worst.
ill end with an analogy to kenny and lilly as the presidentail election, both candidates suck but one is just a little less worse than the other.
Don't tell me I have to like that damsel Carley. Yeah, she never participates in any major conversation except the one where she's the main suspect. She's always in the middle always letting others make the decision. It's easy to follow and then blame the leader. If you've seen the TV show or read the comic book you would know. It's difficult to lead and both Lilly and Rick do not want to, but since there is nobody else that is capable, well they kinda have to.
Nobody wanted to ration the food but everybody was complaining. Why didn't your precious Carley do it? She didn't do anything else, not ever once standing on guard or going hunting. She's like super useless.
Lilly's the one that tells you to be careful when spying on other people's business in the dairy. Later if you save her father, which in my opinion is the only right choice, she saves your ass twice. Even if you don't do it, in episode 3 she still saves everybody's ass when the bandits attack.
How does Kenny respond to that? He kills her father in the most gruesome way and let's you die like 5 times at least. Then he accuses her of not having his family's best interests in mind and tells you to leave her behind when she had just saved your asses.
Yeah, if I was in her place I would be pretty pissed as well.
Why I blame others. Well, for starters Kenny does kill her father. In the worst way possible. You cannot expect her to live through that as if nothing happened. Her own people murdered her father, then they continue on putting the blame for everything on her and in the end there was a fu***** traitor in the group that attracted bandits and zombies. And Kenny tried to leave her behind. She lost everything they've been trying to build for so long and it was like nobody cared. Well, of course that the likes of Carley wouldn't care that much. After all, what good have they done for the group, again?
If I was playing her character instead of Lee's I would be absolutely pissed off. There was just so much one can take. She shot Carley/Ben because she was dead sure it was one of them and guess what - she was fu***** right!
It was not about revenge... believe me, if it was Kenny wouldn't be walking around.
Kenny started all this as well as the whole group's intolerance. If the game allowed me I would've escaped with Lilly and Clem. She's no weakling and despite her loss, she's a survivor and a good leader.
Why I like her? Because I understand her, I can relate to her better than the rest and because I know how hard it is to be a leader and to have every decision you make double-guessed by everyone, despite that nobody else really wants to do it.
its just a game why play it at all, its just a waste of time anyway..
That's what lee is for, Carley say so herself in part 2.
I still support Lily though, i'm the as kenny put "always the diplomat"
lol
trying to support both sides as long as the game allows...
Of course, now with Lilly being gone and Kenny slowly slipping into crazy land, Lee is the only leader of this group.
That chick, Christa, however strikes me as someone who's used to voicing her opinion and actually looks like the dominant of the duo.
Kenny not only morally destroyed her but, in the state the group was at really contributed to breaking them up, he kept pulling everyone his way, he's got the boat. While Lilly was trying to pull everyone to stay together, the Ben was the one by who's fault there was a witchhunt.
And she was right, if someone was working with the bandits, then the group was in constant danger, she was close with deductions, and in the end just messed up. I could forgive her, had she not stolen the RV I'd have her put back as the leader, after a break of course.
And I agree the "Jail incident" was a heat of the moment action and she redeemed herself.
Also, Raziel please put spoiler tags on the second part of your post, many people here have not read the comics yet.
I'm glad that are people who can really appreciate the complicated character of Lilly.
*fixed. Put a warning on my first post. Thanks for reminding me!
Let me point out that it's not like we just read the same book and to be "different" I'm choosing to like someone that no one else, who read the same book, liked.
Many choices were made along the way that made my game obviously different from your game. Not in terms of the outcome but rather in terms of relationships. It was very tragic to see my best friend kill my other best friend.
I hope that you can understand, based on in game choices, that another person may have a different relationship with the same characters you have met and take that into consideration when posting on a particular character's appreciation thread.
Did she listen to me when I wanted her to cool it just once? Nope. She ventilated my girls face instead. Her murder was emotionally driven, against someone who wasn't an immediate threat and (although we didn't know at the time) killed the wrong person entirely. She was shooting on an offchance to begin with. Not to mention, it was clear the person she was trying to weed out was acting (extremely stupidly) with the best intentions.
After saying she's not coming with us, how did she justify her action? By throwing me and Kennys murders back at us. She doesn't even realise the difference when I didn't kill on purpose. Or that Kenny didn't kill based on personal bias.
She asks everyone to drop it and tries to convince us that she just let it slide when Kenny killed Larry. Like hell she did!
How else did she argue her case to stay on board? "But I'll die". It's a bit late for that! She was in a condition where the only people safe from a spontaneous bullet was me and the kids. If it's fair, non-hypocritical treatment she wants, the only thing to do without becoming as bad as her is let her wander off and fend for herself.
And I don't think even god knows how she makes her decisions. She flips her lid when we rescue 2 strangers and get them to the motel, but when it comes to an abandoned car, she doesn't want to take the supplies because, unlike letting some strangers die, taking unattended supplies is "wrong".
Out of Kenny and Lilly, which one would I prefer to deal with when they crack under pressure? Kenny! By miles. I wish I gave him more of a hand.
Edit: I am obviously not fond of Lilly, but next to Ben she looks like a gift from heaven.
Yeah she can "flip out" but then who wouldn't?
Anyone leading a group of survivors, for over 4 months would flip out, and the rivalry with Kenny does not help at all.
I tried to be nice to her in EP3 because I truly did feel bad for her. Heck, I can even admit that she saved us from the bandits when they captured everyone. Letting everyone know Lee was a murderer, well, can't blame her for that. Lee had to know that was going to get out sometime, which is why I was honest with everyone.
Honestly, if she shot Kenny none of us could really blame her. And Carley insulted her at just the wrong moment, which set her off. When she told me she really did think it was Carley, I almost let her stay because of her sincerity. But she killed a group member who helped us escape the motor inn (Carley helps hold off the bandits and walkers, while Doug helps fix the RV) for no reason with no evidence. She was just too dangerous to keep around. I'll miss her, but I won't be letting her back if she miraculously shows up again.