I loved Lilly. She was great, up until her dad was murdered, turned psychotic, and blew Carley's brains out.
Had she not lost it, she'd probably be my favorite character (well, her and Carley both are as it is, but I would've liked her more- why Kenny, why?)
I see my name mentioned quite often in your posts. I started reading but then I realized how you clearly have no idea how to argument yourself so I quit.
I'm sorry but I definitely do not have time for lines like "After meeting her, it's clear she was a Terrible Leader. "
What's wrong with that line?
What is she doing when you meet her, nothing, she looks like she's losing it, struggled to control her dad and when her dad collapses, she runs to strangers for help and did nothing through the whole of Episode 1. Tell me where the great leader is in that?
I don't see why she's a terrible leader, nor why it is clear.
Maybe if you read further, you'll see why.
Your posts are full of things you believe we should all finally understand but to tell you the truth, all you say has been discussed for so long that nobody is gonna take you seriously.
Calling me or anybody else fanatic doesn't help either. It only shows how rude and narrow-minded you are.
You're actually the third user to tell me about skipping pages. Kind of made me feel guilty for being lazy so I read all the pages. And you claim I'm repeating the same discussion? I don't think anyone brought up points that I brought up?
Like others, I was responding to your thread.
Nobody will take me seriously? dukeleto begs to differ.
I apologize for that "Fanatic" remark, didn't mean to offend. BTW, you did make Lilly out to be what she was not as if you never played the game, and also, didn't you come across a little rude to thestalkinghead guy? Just saying, I’m not the only that was apparently "rude".
There are a lot of people in this forum who do not share my appreciation for Lilly and whom I respect. You are not one of them.
Fine by me. I don't care whether you respect me or not due to me disagreeing with your points. I'm not even looking for your respect because you come across as a fanatic.
To Dukeleto:
Hello Icerider-
Ok it's clear for me now- why you support Kenny this much.
Let me explain.
You support him because he fits MUCH to your playthrouh and to your decisions.
The thing here is, there are not only one Lilly or not only one Kenny in this game.
The Kenny I met,
is way tooooooo different than your Kenny (according to your choices)
And the Lilly I met,
is way tooooooo different than your Lilly. (according to your choices,again)
It's not about the choices you make that affects the character to the person they become, it's about the action they take no matter what choices you make.
I'm saying this, because you asked me where did I saw that "caring" Lilly.
I strongly suggest you to go back and try to side with her while rationing, staying at the motel, and giving a bar of chocolate kinda things... Then maybe you can see another Lilly.
As a matter fact, I already did a game play where I sided with her(though I did feel like shit siding with her, made me felt like an asshole and nothing positive came out of it), I did a lot of game plays with different choices, still have the same opinion, I see no changes when you side with her or when your neutral because in the end, it'll always come with the same outcomes. I met nice Kenny & douche bag Kenny but I’ve not met a nice Lilly.
The thing I'm trying to say here is, your arguments are based on DEPENDEBLE facts( according to playthroughs), while mine were not based on people's choices.
Because I'm not talking about Kenny whose actions are changeable according to player's choices. The examples I gave were for everyone who played this game.
You think I’m siding with Kenny due to the choices I made that makes him likeable?
Not even close, it's not based on people's choices.
This is how it goes with the two:
You be a dick to Kenny, he's a dick to you
You be a nice to Kenny, he's a nice to you
with Lilly:
You be a dick to her, she's a selfish bitch to you
You be a nice to her, she's still a selfish bitch to you
Notice how she doesn't change. Kenny being a dick hardly causes problems for you but with Lilly, it does.
For example you mentioned about Christa. Who saved her? I didn't see Kenny were doing it since I didn't drop Ben on that belltower. ( But even if I saw him doing that, I was still like F*** you Kenny, because it was already his fault that Christa fell down. )
And about Ben, Kenny didn't sacrifice nothing; he only realised that he never treated reasonable to that teenager, and after his family is all gone, he realised he will not handle the idea of a painful death of this young man. Nothing more.
Did he push Christa down? No, how is it his fault?, she chose to go down herself and he sacrificed his own life to save her yet you still condemn that action.
And Ben, same thing, sacrificed his life in a brutal way so a teenager that got his family killed doesn't need to suffer a horrible death. He realized the way he treated him and showed remorse, has Lilly showed remorse for her actions? No, but you assumed she did and slate a character that does.
I see my explanations are still not enough for you.
Then I must repeat:
-NO one but NO ONE has the right to act like an executioner when it comes to family issues. Kenny shouldn't KILL Larry, because simply he has NO right to do it. Simple. No .ucking right on someone else's life. -
Of course, he can still act like an executioner to save his own life (or for his family), but as I said after doing it he must have taken the responsibility and he must have left. As Lilly did.
That's still not enough. They were locked in a room, what you're asking is for them to do nothing when a guy can reanimate and kill you, your friend and a little girl in that room you're in?
And why should Kenny leave? As far as he's concerned, he saved 3 peoples lives, Lilly on the other hand committed cold blooded murder.
You said "And rules? What rules, there are no rules anymore. "
Ok then, it is not a problem that Lilly killed Carley. No rules, no respect. Nothing.
There are no rules but there are still Morals, the characters do still possess the knowledge of knowing what's right and what's wrong. Lilly didn't.
Think about again, who is only one sided?
I still insist, everything started by Kenny's arrogance with that salt lick. They were all doing well one way or another. But Kenny screwed at the first most deadly situation the group ever faced.
You're still one sided and I'll give you a reason why, you fail to recognize Lilly's flaws, whereas I at least acknowledge that Kenny has flaws.
Lilly was the one that screwed everything up by pushing the group to that cannibal farm. If she hadn't, the salt lick incident would never have occurred.
Please try to discuss some manners by non-dependable arguments. As I carefully choose the examples which are not changeable for others' playthroughs. If you continue, I'm sorry I'll think that yours doesn't do it for me, too.
OK, still not convinced that Lilly is not what she seems.
No matter what choices you make, Kenny will still offer you a ride
No matter what choices you make, Kenny will still save you in Ep 1
No matter what choices you make, Kenny will still save you by preventing Larry's reanimation
No matter what choices you make, Kenny will still take you in the RV
No matter what choices you make, Kenny is still willing to take you on the boat, bitten or not
No matter what choices you make, Kenny will still save Christa
No matter what choices you make, Kenny will still put Ben out of his misery
No matter what choices you make, Kenny will still stick with you till the end
Now with Lilly:
No matter what choices you make, Lilly will still whine at you
No matter what choices you make, Lilly will still snap at you
No matter what choices you make, Lilly will still be a hypocrite
No matter what choices you make, Lilly will still push you to the farm
No matter what choices you make, Lilly will still push you to start a witch hunt
No matter what choices you make, Lilly will still kill Carley/Doug
No matter what choices you make, Lilly will still sell you out on what you did before
No matter what choices you make, Lilly will still stab you in the back
No matter what choices you make, Lilly will still steal the RV
There, at least when Kenny's a douche, you can still change it but with Lilly, you can't change nothing and you're left making excuses for her actions.
And lastly;
YES, the drinking issue is the most important thing to me. And disappearances of Clem on both situations looked a bit different to me.
Because last time I checked, on Lee's situation LEEME was sleeping.
The drinking issue?
You say Lilly is a broken woman and she gets a free pass for killing Doug/Carley.
But Kenny is a broken man but somehow, him drinking is much worse than murder?
Whether Lee was sleeping or not, he was still in charge of Clementine, you might as well blame Ben, Christa and Omid for losing her as well.
Lily is rash and weak minded. She only cares for larry and herself. Why does anyone stick up for her? She gets mad when carly/glen saves a child in the streets. She flips out when someone is stealing even though she has been stealing for larry. She is so weak minded she cannot keep her shit together shoots doug/carly. Poor baby...you lost your daddy....cry me a river. Clem is 8 lost both parents and handles it better than lily. If you do not leave her she steals the RV. No reguard for the children she just left in the middle of nowhere. What if the train was busted then what? She would of basically killed everyone. I hope she dies a slow firery death.
Lily is rash and weak minded. She only cares for larry and herself. Why does anyone stick up for her? She gets mad when carly/glen saves a child in the streets. She flips out when someone is stealing even though she has been stealing for larry. She is so weak minded she cannot keep her shit together shoots doug/carly. Poor baby...you lost your daddy....cry me a river. Clem is 8 lost both parents and handles it better than lily. If you do not leave her she steals the RV. No reguard for the children she just left in the middle of nowhere. What if the train was busted then what? She would of basically killed everyone. I hope she dies a slow firery death.
This is how it goes with the two:
You be a dick to Kenny, he's a dick to you
You be a nice to Kenny, he's a nice to you
I'm sorry for jumping in like this, but what? I'm sorry but not killing Larry, literally the only time I didn't side with Kenny (aside from leaving or shooting Beatrice, I chose the latter, similarily I did not drop Ben) doesn't really qualify me as being a dick.
Kenny would literally leave me to die twice and then later leave Clementine, an nine year old girl who had nothing to do with it, just because I didn't help him kill people. Interestingly he always went on after the meat locker situation that I was never there for him, when Lee literally saved his family tons and tons of times. Even going so far as to put Duck out of his misery.
At least Lilly, whom I'm not fond of (you can deduct the reasons why by looking at my avatar and sig), had a justified reason for hating you. Because, you know, you killed the last thing she had left in this world. Also even then she was more understanding than Kenny.
"A part of me understands why you did it..."
with Lilly:
You be a dick to her, she's a selfish bitch to you
You be a nice to her, she's still a selfish bitch to you
You kidding me? Lilly was an awesome character if you attempted to save Larry, she had some great potential to be an amazing character. One of my favourite and, in my opinion, touching lines were given by her in episode three.
"[Larry] treated you like shit, knew who you were and you still tried to save his life. The last thing you need to do is apologize. "Thank you." "So you killed a guy? I bet he was a dick." "Well, it did ruin my life." "Good thing everyone else's got destroyed shortly thereafter, huh? Misery loves company."
Then there's that one quote Carley said.
"You're pretty much the last thing she has left in the world."
Notice how she doesn't change. Kenny being a dick hardly causes problems for you but with Lilly, it does.
Are you kidding me? Like I said before, Kenny leaves you to die TWICE. Despite everything I've done for him and his family he'd leave you to die because you didn't help him kill Larry. That's awful! And this is probably the most evil statement given by a character in this game.
"Lee, man... You know I care about Clementine, and I am Christian man. But if it were me, asking you for help... Would you be there for me? Because there's been plenty of times where you haven't been."
He'd leave Clementine to die just because I didn't help him kill Larry and Ben / shot Beatrice. Literally the only times I didn't help him. That's just terrible, Clementine is a nine year old girl who needs help and he'd leave her because of a grudge with Lee?
I believe this was intentional too. You play through episode one thinking Kenny is a nice guy and then in every subsequent episode you slowly start to realize that Kenny isn't as good as you may have first realized. It kind of works in reverse with Lilly, you start off hating Lilly and then you start to see a really nice soft side too her. And then she shoots Carley and then I begin to write her name in my Death Note.
Now I'm not saying Lilly is amazing or that she's better than Kenny, but stop looking at this through tinted glasses. Kenny is far from a good person, same with Lilly. They're both assholes. Lilly has some qualities I like and Kenny has some qualities that I like.
I believe this was intentional too. You play through episode one thinking Kenny is a nice guy and then in every subsequent episode you slowly start to realize that Kenny isn't as good as you may have first realized. It kind of works in reverse with Lilly, you start off hating Lilly and then you start to see a really nice soft side too her. And then she shoots Carley and then I begin to write her name in my Death Note.
Now I'm not saying Lilly is amazing or that she's better than Kenny, but stop looking at this through tinted glasses. Kenny is far from a good person, same with Lilly. They're both assholes. Lilly has some qualities I like and Kenny has some qualities that I like.
Lilly doesn't really change much at all. She's arrogant and stubborn when you first meet until the day you part. She complains about Lee's group joining, she complains about Mark joining, she complains about Ben joining. I understand that they're more mouths to feed, but she ignores that aspect as well. She knows there is no food left but refuses to leave. At first this was because they were near the pharmacy and could get medicine for Larry, but after his death she still stubbornly stays put even when she doesn't have a valid reason anymore.
Kenny might change from good guy to bad guy or vice versa, but Lilly is sort of a tyrant from day one forever.
He'd leave Clementine to die just because I didn't help him kill Larry and Ben / shot Beatrice. Literally the only times I didn't help him. That's just terrible, Clementine is a nine year old girl who needs help and he'd leave her because of a grudge with Lee?
As opposed to Lilly, who would leave Clementine, a nine year old girl who needs help, EVEN IF YOU SUPPORTED HER 100%!
Don't forget, she's the same woman who screamed at Carley for saving Clementine (and four others) back when all this started.
Lilly never gave a shit about anyone but herself and her father. You say not killing Larry and Ben doesn't make you a dick to Kenny? I agree. But if you don't side with Lilly she does everything Kenny does and far worse. And even if you side with her on everything, she abandons you and Clementine, after lying about bringing you with her.
You flip that around, and do every stupid thing Kenny wants you to do, he'll refuse to let you go alone, telling you that Lee and Clem are the only family he has left. And even if you didn't, you can guilt trip into coming anyways by playing the family card, and if you fail at that he says he'll still wait for you to get back and even take you back on the boat despite being bitten. Where as with Lilly, every combination always leads to her running off to save her own skin, possibly after admitting she planned on killing you when your back was turned.
Kenny was a decent guy who turned into a selfish asshole as things got worse, but Lilly was a selfish asshole who turned into an amoral sociopath. It's most obvious in episode one. The second shit hits the fan Lilly's gone and her father only stays behind to murder Lee, where as Kenny saves you even if you've been an ass to him all episode. I'm not a big Kenny fan, but you're crazy to act like he was as bad as Lilly.
You say Lilly is a great character, I agree, she's a great VILLAIN. And she's a great villain because she hides the fact she's a villain for so long. She's a manipulative shrew who used her bully of a father as leverage to crown herself leader so she can justify sitting somewhere safe while people like Kenny, Lee, Mark and the like take all the risks to get things like pills for Lilly's would be murderer father Larry. She lies about protecting everyone else while she sits safe and sound and dismisses anyone who questions her awful leadership. Once Larry's gone and she doesn't have him to make her look better by comparison her true nature comes out.
Kenny can be a massive asshole, but he was never shy about doing what he thought needed to be done. Sometimes that caused him to do some supremely stupid shit, but it also meant he'd dive right into whatever dangerous situation he felt was in his interests. That's why no matter what, he's out hunting in episode two, he's heading back to the pharmacy in episode three, off to Crawford in four, and depending on how he feels about Lee, may even come with you after Clem.
He didn't sit around on a lawn chair and expect other people to take care of him 24/7 like Lilly did. Lilly wanted to leave Lee and everyone to die outside of the pharmacy. Lilly does jack shit to defend the pharmacy during the attack. Lilly sits on watch while Kenny, Mark and Lee try to get supplies. Then, Lilly gives Ben watch and hides in her room when bandits pose a threat to whoever is on watch. And when bandits finally attack she sends Lee out as bait while she finds somewhere nice and far away to snipe them from. And all this happens even if you support her.
The only remotely heroic thing she does is attack the St. Johns, only after Lee and Kenny go first, only if you side with her, and even then she hangs back in the safety of the barn with the only gun available. And that's the best case scenario. And even then she's acting out of revenge, not a sense of protecting anyone. It's pretty obvious when you don't side with her she just stands there while Andy tries to murder Lee, and Clem looks on in horror as she realizes what's happening. Lilly's thinking, this way two people who were responsible for my father's death will die. She was thinking she'd be killing two birds with one stone.
Depending on how Kenny thinks you "slight" him, he can be a real piece of shit. Lilly however always ends up as a monster, no matter what you do for her, and will always end up shooting one of the most selfless people in your group. She'd probably fit right in once she got to Woodbury, all she might not have liked Crawford, they'd expect her to pull her own weight.
You say Lilly is a great character, I agree, she's a great VILLAIN.
Great point as usual. I think Lilly is a well written character, just not a likable one for many. Heck, the fact many players dislike her is proof she's a great character because the writers did a good job of getting people riled up.
Kinda reminds me of how satisfied I am watching this scene from Game of Thrones:
@Jaded X Gamer
While I disagree with a lot of points you make concerning Lilly and Kenny I can understand them.The one I don't understand is the one concerning Lilly not helping a Lee who held her back while Kenny smashed her father's skull?!
I find it hard to imagine that any more than a tiny minority would have actively help Lee in that situation(unless you really hated your Dad).Personally I would have found it hard not to give Lee a third eye,when Andy was trying to fry him,if he had done the same to my father.Someone I thought I could have saved,only ten minutes ago.
Concerning Lilly staying back in the barn,If I remember correctly,doesnt she say "Go, I'll look after Clementine"(pro Lee) or Lee himself even tells her to stay and look after Clem(anti Lee).Should Lee have taken Clem with him to confront the St john's,left Clem on her own with Danny(dead or alive) and Larry's body or defenceless by taking the gun from Lilly?
I also remember the fact that Kenny was sitting down and playing with a pipe while Larry and Mark worked on the defences and Lee struggled with a walker attacking Kenny's wife.I thought the reason that Lilly was sitting in her chair was because she was acting as a lookout for the group from her deckchair on top of the RV(one of the few members who had previous use with firearms).Kenny took a while to notice his wife was being attacked...
While Lilly did eventually do a monstrous thing I think your hate,rage and hindsight is making you very selective in your points and the way you justify her previous actions
@Jaded X Gamer
While I disagree with a lot of points you make concerning Lilly and Kenny I can understand them.The one I don't understand is the one concerning Lilly not helping a Lee who held her back while Kenny smashed her father's skull?!
I find it hard to imagine that any more than a tiny minority would of actively help Lee in that situation(unless you really hated your Dad).Personally I would have found it hard not to give Lee a third eye,when Andy was trying to fry him,if he had done the same to my father.Someone I thought I could have saved,only ten minutes ago.
Concerning Lilly staying back in the barn,If I remember correctly,doesnt she say "Go, I'll look after Clementine"(pro Lee) or Lee himself even tells her to stay and look after Clem(anti Lee).Should Lee have taken Clem with him to confront the St john's,left Clem on her own with Danny(dead or alive) and Larry's body or defenceless by taking the gun from Lilly?
I also remember the fact that Kenny was sitting down and playing with a pipe while Larry and Mark worked on the defences and Lee struggled with a walker attacking Kenny's wife.I thought the reason that Lilly was sitting in her chair was because she was acting as a lookout for the group from her deckchair on top of the RV(one of the few members who had previous use with firearms).Kenny took a while to notice his wife was being attacked...
While Lilly did eventually do a monstrous thing I think your hate,rage and hindsight is making you very selective in your points and the way you justify her previous actions
Kenny was working on the RV, and at that moment was taking a break. The pipe was something he was working on. What the hell could he do about his wife? Lilly puts most the weapons up when they are at the Motel. That and he was one of those farthest away from her when she was being attacked. Why didn't Lilly shoot her? She had a rifle in her hands, and was right in range to kill the walker. It took Carley as long as she did to kill the walker, how could Kenny who was father away? And no, her previous actions can't be selective. She barely does anything really, despite being a leader.
Lily is rash and weak minded. She only cares for larry and herself. Why does anyone stick up for her? She gets mad when carly/glen saves a child in the streets. She flips out when someone is stealing even though she has been stealing for larry. She is so weak minded she cannot keep her shit together shoots doug/carly. Poor baby...you lost your daddy....cry me a river. CLEM IS 8 LOST BOTH PARENTS and handles it better than lily. If you do not leave her she steals the RV. No reguard for the children she just left in the middle of nowhere. What if the train was busted then what? She would of basically killed everyone. I hope she dies a slow firery death.
I cant believe people are still tryin to defend her. Everyone lost someone. Kenny shot his son in the face and didnt go killin other group members. JADED X said it best she is a villian. Farmer talks about lily protecting clem in the barn from what lee already dealt with the situtation while she sat on her ass. Kenny maybe a dick and even when losses it he manages to regain himself w/o killing his group.
@Jaded X Gamer
While I disagree with a lot of points you make concerning Lilly and Kenny I can understand them.The one I don't understand is the one concerning Lilly not helping a Lee who held her back while Kenny smashed her father's skull?!
I find it hard to imagine that any more than a tiny minority would have actively help Lee in that situation(unless you really hated your Dad).Personally I would have found it hard not to give Lee a third eye,when Andy was trying to fry him,if he had done the same to my father.Someone I thought I could have saved,only ten minutes ago.
Concerning Lilly staying back in the barn,If I remember correctly,doesnt she say "Go, I'll look after Clementine"(pro Lee) or Lee himself even tells her to stay and look after Clem(anti Lee).Should Lee have taken Clem with him to confront the St john's,left Clem on her own with Danny(dead or alive) and Larry's body or defenceless by taking the gun from Lilly?
I also remember the fact that Kenny was sitting down and playing with a pipe while Larry and Mark worked on the defences and Lee struggled with a walker attacking Kenny's wife.I thought the reason that Lilly was sitting in her chair was because she was acting as a lookout for the group from her deckchair on top of the RV(one of the few members who had previous use with firearms).Kenny took a while to notice his wife was being attacked...
While Lilly did eventually do a monstrous thing I think your hate,rage and hindsight is making you very selective in your points and the way you justify her previous actions
Oh am I? Let's challenge that notion shall we?
Lilly letting Lee die being justifiable. Yeah, I understand why she would let that happen, she wants revenge. That doesn't make it justified, it just means there's a motive. I didn't say I didn't understand why she did that, I said it shows you what a cold blooded bitch she can be. She's got the cannibal whack job whose responsible for everyone's plight right there with an easy shot, and will do nothing because she wants Lee dead. Personal vendetta aside, she's putting everyone in danger by not eliminating a massive threat because of a grudge.
You'd done the same? Well that's your choice. It's not what I would do. From a purely moral standpoint it's just petty vengeance, wanting to kill someone who caused harm to you for no other reason than wanting to do harm. From a pragmatist's point of view, you're letting one of the most useful members of the group die for doing something that may have been necessary. And looking at the episode three stats, a slim majority let Lilly back in the R.V. less than a minute after senselessly murdering someone herself, myself included on my first playthrough. So you're wrong on thinking most everyone would act like you and Lilly would.
As for her staying in the barn. She sometimes says she'll cover you depending on whenever you kill Danny or not I believe. If Lilly was proactive she'd be covering Lee the whole time and if she did as much as wait OUTSIDE the barn she probably could have shot Andy the second he came outside. Clementine is no stranger to hiding during dangerous situations and the barn was full of empty stalls and taking out the other St. Johns in some manner was crucial to everyone's survival.
If Lilly wanted to just protect Clementine she should have given Lee the rifle since he was the one going after the remaining St. Johns. The barn has only one way in and there's no shortage of blunt and sharp instruments of pain lying around to use as melee weapons. But she does neither of these things. She keeps the gun and stays in the barn during almost the entire conflict. Carley, Doug, and technically even fucking Ben chance coming into the dairy to help Lee. Lilly doesn't.
She doesn't because she's scared, but she won't admit it, so she either tells you it's because of protecting Clementine or she's "covering" you, of which she does a terrible job. And I'm so glad you mention the incident with Parker/Travis coming back to life. You're giving Kenny shit for taking a break after hunting all morning and having to shoot a bunch of walkers and point out Lilly is on watch protecting people. Tell me, why didn't she do anything about the sudden zombie attack?
She had a rifle in hand, about twenty feet away from where a reanimated Band Teacher/Student was trying to eat Lee, and at a certain point Lee shoves it up against the back window of the pick-up, giving Lilly a great shot at it from her position. And yet she doesn't shoot it, or do anything during this whole conflict despite being "on watch". Realistically the developers probably just forgot about her during that scene, but Lilly being infective seems pretty consistent through out most of the game.
You like to think this is all "Lilly killed Carley = I hate Lilly" but stealing the R.V. did a lot more to make me hate her than that. I didn't hate Lilly on my first playthrough, I pitied her for the most part. It wasn't her monstrous action that made me hate her, it was everything else I noticed on my repeat playthroughs. Her hypocrisy, her pettiness, her complete lack of empathy, her incompetence as a leader, her refusal to ever risk her own life or even work and her piss poor justifications.
You're trying to say I'm so blinded by her single greatest act of wickedness that I forget all the good she did, I'm saying that single act actually was just the one people remember in a about three episodes worth of despicable behavior. Lilly wasn't some badass hero driven to the breaking point, she was a frightened bureaucrat who seated herself in a position of power purely for self protection. And she was content to let others do the heavy lifting for her provided she and daddy were safe. Plenty of people hated her long before she shot Doug or Carley.
Kenny sure can be an asshole if you don't take his side, but that's after the group goes through some real fucked up stuff. Lilly was willing to leave people to die less than a week into the apocalypse. Kenny only left Shawn because he froze up, which is a very undesirable trait in a fellow survivor, but he at least makes up for it by the end of the episode. No matter how badly you treat him, Kat, and Duck throughout the Episode, it is not Lilly, not Glenn, but Kenny who saves your life. For all he knew, he could have been torn to shreds when he went back in that store, but he went back in anyway, for someone he may not have even liked. That's heroism in my book. And where was Lilly, anyway? If she was so concerned about her dad, why wasn't she there with him in the pharmacy when he tried to kill Lee?
Lilly was a bad leader and pretty much a bitch from Day 1. It takes Kenny three months to turn into one, and that's after the group goes through some seriously messed up stuff. He's a huge ass to anyone he doesn't like, but he'll always have your back if you have his (almost always have his. One of his unfortunate personality flaws, much like freezing up at Hershel's when Shawn needed him.) Lilly abandons you though, no matter how much time you spents bending over for her and her jerkass father. She lies straight to your face about it too.
"Go get Clementine. We'll all leave together." I'm sure everyone knows what happens after that. She screws over Ben, Kenny and his family, Lee, and Clem. Leaving two children, three adults, and an idiot to die on the side of the road, especially if one of those people had been the only person who ever had your back, is just low. Selfish. I don't blame her, actually, for hating Kenny or Lee (because I helped Kenny in the meat locker) but when she blew Carley's brains all over the road just for standing up to her, I lost all my sympathy for her. I left her on the side of the road. If she was willing to kill one of the group's most kind and helpful members because she guessed, I expected Kenny and Lee to wake up to the sound of her slashing our throats in the night. Followed by her complaining about why everyone else is mistreating her for murdering us because we made sure her father didn't turn.
No matter how many times Kenny leaves Lee to die, he always comes around in Episode 5. Especially if Ben is present. Unlike Lilly, he'll realize how big of a dick he's been acting like, and apologizes to the kid who got his wife and child killed. Less than a week after they died. Less than a day after he found out it was Ben. A week after the dairy, and Lilly is going trigger happy amongst her fellow group members. Then leaves them all to die if given the chance. Leaving the group by leaving everyone to die seems a stark contrast to at least trying to save someone, and giving your life so that they don't have to suffer, or jumping into a dark hole to save some woman you've only known for a couple days by giving your life instead.
Lilly letting Lee die being justifiable. Yeah, I understand why she would let that happen, she wants revenge. That doesn't make it justified, it just means there's a motive. I didn't say I didn't understand why she did that, I said it shows you what a cold blooded bitch she can be. She's got the cannibal whack job whose responsible for everyone's plight right there with an easy shot, and will do nothing because she wants Lee dead. Personal vendetta aside, she's putting everyone in danger by not eliminating a massive threat because of a grudge.
You'd done the same? Well that's your choice. It's not what I would do. From a purely moral standpoint it's just petty vengeance, wanting to kill someone who caused harm to you for no other reason than wanting to do harm. From a pragmatist's point of view, you're letting one of the most useful members of the group die for doing something that may have been necessary.
I didn't write that I'd definitely do the same.Ideally, I hope I'd be able to have control of my emotions but I suspect it would be very hard in such a situation to take the morally correct action.If I remember correctly, previous opinion polls in the United Kingdom have shown that the majority would welcome the return of the death penalty,which shows that many humans do harbour a desire for vengeance on someone who has harmed them or others.
I agree that Lilly's action's with Lee on the electric fence(Lee helped Kenny) isn't the morally right choice but I still can't believe most people would think and act rationally,morally and pragmatically in a similiar real life situation when having just witnessed the death of a loved family member(only ten minutues earlier) by the hands of the person they have a chance to now save.Maybe I'm being too cynical of my fellow humans but I still suspect that a lot would choose the selfish act of revenge rather than choose to act for the greater good.Even Lilly mentions that a part of her understood why Lee did what he did but that is a week or so later and not immediately after that traumatic incident.
At no time does Lee insist that the best plan is for Lilly to give him the rifle or that she should leave Clem behind and go looking for the St John's herself,so he must have thought that her staying in the barn with Clem is the right and safest thing to do .Lilly does shoot Andy if you tried to help Larry so she isn't that terrible at covering Lee(if she wants to ).You could argue she should of made sure and shot him in the head but Carley only managed to shoot his ear off.
Someone mentioned that Lilly is weak willed because she broke and killed someone because she couldn't cope with the loss of her father,I agree.
Does Kenny show that he has a stronger will because he kept control of himself after losing his family,again, I agree.
What about Lee?
He kills a man because he slept with his wife(he's wife wasn't killed) in a normal and peaceful time when the stresses,losses and trauma of a ZA weren't even a issue.Does that make him the weaker willed one?
The player can justify this by saying corruption was involved and Lee was treated more harshly because he killed an "important" person such as a senator or that Lee only killed in self defence.If it is self defence, why a conviction for murder and not manslaughter? and why does Lee tell Katjaa that he doesnt really know if he had to kill the Senator to protect himself.
I didn't' believe that Lee was irredeemable(lost it and killed in a time of normality) and I also don't believe Lilly is irredeemable(lost it and killed in a ZA).
Both are totally wrong and I can even understand why someone would argue that the senator had a degree of "guilt",I still think that's not enough and is wrong, for Lee to kill him compared to Lilly killing Carley/Doug.
Yes, Lee had the more pleasant personality but that still doesnt mean that Lilly is a lost cause and is now hellbent on killing the remaining survivors of the ZA.
Personally, I can sympathise and understand, and still condemn as wrong, Lilly's moment of madness(as I would Kenny's if he had killed Ben himself) more so than Lee's and still think of Lee as a good man at heart who made one big mistake but found some kind of redemption.
I've been away from the forum for a while and will be again soon but I thought I'd bring some a tiny part of balance to the Lilly hate that has come back with a vengeance recently
I thought I'd accidentally visited the "Death to Lilly" forum rather than The Walking Dead one.
Please don't hate me
I'm sorry for jumping in like this, but what? I'm sorry but not killing Larry, literally the only time I didn't side with Kenny (aside from leaving or shooting Beatrice, I chose the latter, similarily I did not drop Ben) doesn't really qualify me as being a dick.
Feel free to jump in, I don't mind and surely others don't either.
And as I said, I'm not making excuses for Kenny leaving you but the Larry thing is the only one that pisses him off and makes him against you, that's it, his situation is understandable as Larry can reanimate and kill anyone at any time.
Kenny would literally leave me to die twice and then later leave Clementine, an nine year old girl who had nothing to do with it, just because I didn't help him kill people. Interestingly he always went on after the meat locker situation that I was never there for him, when Lee literally saved his family tons and tons of times. Even going so far as to put Duck out of his misery.
At least Lilly, whom I'm not fond of (you can deduct the reasons why by looking at my avatar and sig), had a justified reason for hating you. Because, you know, you killed the last thing she had left in this world. Also even then she was more understanding than Kenny.
"A part of me understands why you did it..."
I wouldn't say Kenny left Clementine and I'll get to the reasonings for that. The thing with those scenarios can be changeable. Kenny does leave you but like I said, he sticks with you till the end and makes up for it later on. With Kenny's character, you have two options, not siding with him and he won’t have your back but if you do side with him, he'll have your back. His hate towards you is understandable because from his point of view, you turn your back on him by trying to help a reckless loose canon that tried to murder you and will do so if he gets a chance again. BTW, if you say the right words like bring family into your defense, he'll go with you. With him, he can come with you, with Lilly, there’s not.
Lilly had a justified reason as well. There's no denying it. But saying you killed Larry, how do we know if he would've lived?
Not to mention as someone pointed, killing the cannibals who caused her dad’s death was more important than the grudge she had. It's not like you enjoyed killing Larry.
And also, when Kenny hated you, he took it out on you, Lilly on the other hand, took it out on everybody else!
You kidding me? Lilly was an awesome character if you attempted to save Larry, she had some great potential to be an amazing character. One of my favourite and, in my opinion, touching lines were given by her in episode three.
"[Larry] treated you like shit, knew who you were and you still tried to save his life. The last thing you need to do is apologize.
"Thank you."
"So you killed a guy? I bet he was a dick."
"Well, it did ruin my life."
"Good thing everyone else's got destroyed shortly thereafter, huh? Misery loves company."
Wait, What??!!
You said you're not fond of her now you say she's an awesome character??!!
If you read what I wrote, I said I did a lot of game plays and different choices, meaning I did try and save Larry, she was still the same hothead, she was still a bitch(but not a bigger bitch to when you did kill her dad) but still a bitch.
Remember this line: "I'm a murderer? You had Lee with you this whole time"
Even though you side with her, even though you try to save her douchebag dad, even though you let her back in the RV, she still says this, she puts you in the spot no matter what. And yeah, I didn't tell her because it's none of her business. She didn't consider your feelings to why you didn't tell anyone else. Looks like siding with her and trying to save her bastard of a dad meant nothing to her. That was a stab in the back.
Then there's that one quote Carley said.
"You're pretty much the last thing she has left in the world."
That's what Carley thought, but that's not the way Lilly thinks of you.
Are you kidding me? Like I said before, Kenny leaves you to die TWICE. Despite everything I've done for him and his family he'd leave you to die because you didn't help him kill Larry. That's awful! And this is probably the most evil statement given by a character in this game.
"Lee, man... You know I care about Clementine, and I am Christian man. But if it were me, asking you for help... Would you be there for me? Because there's been plenty of times where you haven't been."
And Lilly stabbed you in the back and left you dead no matter what choices you make. At least you can change it with Kenny and not to mention, he doesn't put you in situations where you are in danger. But in the end, he redeems himself with you no matter the choices you made to piss him off.
You think that's evil? That's just a big "F*** YOU, YOU'RE ON YOUR OWN, YOU NEVER HELPED ME, WHY SHOULD I HELP YOU?" from Kenny.
The line from Lilly after she killed Carley where she says she had to do it shows how messed up she is. She killed someone with no proof, who never did a damn thing to you and she was not sorry for it, 3 months spent with her and she never felt anything for her. When Kenny killed Larry, he was sorry, showed remorse, he didn't even want to do it, with Lilly, it was the opposite.
He'd leave Clementine to die just because I didn't help him kill Larry and Ben / shot Beatrice. Literally the only times I didn't help him. That's just terrible, Clementine is a nine year old girl who needs help and he'd leave her because of a grudge with Lee?
As I said, he didn't leave Clementine, if he took the boat and split, that would be leaving her but instead he decided to stay and wait. Besides, Lilly abandoned Clementine, left Clementine for dead, that's what you call leaving and that’s much worse than Kenny not going with you.
I believe this was intentional too. You play through episode one thinking Kenny is a nice guy and then in every subsequent episode you slowly start to realize that Kenny isn't as good as you may have first realized. It kind of works in reverse with Lilly, you start off hating Lilly and then you start to see a really nice soft side too her. And then she shoots Carley and then I begin to write her name in my Death Note.
Now I'm not saying Lilly is amazing or that she's better than Kenny, but stop looking at this through tinted glasses. Kenny is far from a good person, same with Lilly. They're both assholes. Lilly has some qualities I like and Kenny has some qualities that I like.
What do you mean by tinted glasses and didn’t you say Lilly is awesome?
You think I don't see that Kenny has flaws whether the decisions fit him or not. Lilly had no qualities to like.
Kenny can be a lot of things, but a bad person he is not. You meet him, he offers you a ride and saves you no matter how you treated him. He sticks with you till the end and the choices he made saved lives, he can be harsh but made decisions that were best for the group. Lilly did nothing for you no matter the choices you make, you do all the work, she makes decisions that is fit for herself and her dad but not anyone else, it's indicated she even gives her dad extra food. She was a hypocritical coward, a backstabber that didn't give a damn about others besides her dad. At least you can say this, Kenny never killed an innocent person and showed no remorse but Lilly has. And in the end, Kenny stuck it out with you no matter what and sacrificed his own life for Ben/Christa. In the end, that makes Kenny a much better person than Lilly(who is up there with The Governor).
To Jaded X Gamer
She had a rifle in hand, about twenty feet away from where a reanimated Band Teacher/Student was trying to eat Lee, and at a certain point Lee shoves it up against the back window of the pick-up, giving Lilly a great shot at it from her position. And yet she doesn't shoot it, or do anything during this whole conflict despite being "on watch". Realistically the developers probably just forgot about her during that scene, but Lilly being infective seems pretty consistent through out most of the game.
Well said. Good catching too. Did not notice that, thank you for finding another reason that makes her useless & unlikeable.
Kenny sure can be an asshole if you don't take his side, but that's after the group goes through some real fucked up stuff. Lilly was willing to leave people to die less than a week into the apocalypse. Kenny only left Shawn because he froze up, which is a very undesirable trait in a fellow survivor, but he at least makes up for it by the end of the episode. No matter how badly you treat him, Kat, and Duck throughout the Episode, it is not Lilly, not Glenn, but Kenny who saves your life. For all he knew, he could have been torn to shreds when he went back in that store, but he went back in anyway, for someone he may not have even liked. That's heroism in my book. And where was Lilly, anyway? If she was so concerned about her dad, why wasn't she there with him in the pharmacy when he tried to kill Lee?
That's not really true about Kenny, I've pointed this out in the past. Katjaa says as much at Hershel's farm "we drove by so many people who needed help... over some". The only difference is that it wasn't with "us", so people seem to forget about it. The fact remains that Kenny was apparently leaving people for dead before Lilly was, atleast as far as we can tell.
And of course, there's the apologetic that Kenny only became "cold" once things had been going downhill for a while (which isn't true according to the guy's own wife). Lilly's group wasn't exactly having a picnic in Macon when we come across them, we know they had already seen someone get bit/reanimate, and potentially saw another group of people get killed and eaten (Doug's account of their attempt to break into the hardware store).
By comparison, the time we had at the farm pretty much was a picnic compared to what was apparently going on in the cities.
That's not really true about Kenny, I've pointed this out in the past. Katjaa says as much at Hershel's farm "we drove by so many people who needed help... over some". The only difference is that it wasn't with "us", so people seem to forget about it. The fact remains that Kenny was apparently leaving people for dead before Lilly was, atleast as far as we can tell.
And of course, there's the apologetic that Kenny only became "cold" once things had been going downhill for a while (which isn't true according to the guy's own wife). Lilly's group wasn't exactly having a picnic in Macon when we come across them, we know they had already seen someone get bit/reanimate, and potentially saw another group of people get killed and eaten (Doug's account of their attempt to break into the hardware store).
By comparison, the time we had at the farm pretty much was a picnic compared to what was apparently going on in the cities.
You don't know about Kenny's family on the road. They could have been walkers. Either way he was heading to Ft. Lauderdale, he wasn't staying anywhere. He also thought things would die down in a few days. He only realized things were so serious when Larry explained how people turned(which was half true). He helps Lee out because you are going the same direction. I can understand why he goes right past 'people'. For the most part, I'd do the same. You just can't trust people anymore. But if someone was in trouble, as in they desperately need my help, is where I'd help them out. Well, he helped out Lee and his little girl, who were being kicked out of the place they were taking refuge, and had no transportation, no weapons, no supplies. If Kenny hadn't given them a ride they'd of been screwed
For all we know, those "people" could have been walkers. If I were Kenny, and I was unsure if that thing was dead or alive, I'd keep driving too. Especially if I had my family with me. Lilly clearly saw that Lee and Co were alive out there, and with children. Kenny still leads the group during the pharmacy attack, while Lilly only cares for her father (and isn't even with him when he comes back in to the store), and Kenny is the one who goes back in, even when his family was safe, when he would have been safer staying back, just to save some guy he's known for less than 24 hours. The same guy he's known for less than 24 hours that may have left his son at Hershel's and advocated throwing him out the door with the walkers in that time.
I keep trying to reply to people but whenever I click "preview post" all my work just disappears. Twice this has happened now.
So fuck it.
This is why I always hit "Copy" for my whole post before submitting a post, there's like one to four odds you'll get a blank screen. Hope you didn't take anything I said too seriously, Lilly rants just tend to pour out of me on occasion.
This is why I always hit "Copy" for my whole post before submitting a post, there's like one to four odds you'll get a blank screen. Hope you didn't take anything I said too seriously, Lilly rants just tend to pour out of me on occasion.
I really should have copied it... All that work gone! Essentially the whole point of my post boiled down to "Lilly is an asshole, Kenny is an asshole. They're both assholes, even if Kenny is slightly less so. Also, I miss Carley. "
Trust me, The Walking Dead has more than once spurred me into ranting more than once as well. Most of the time I'm actually ranting about how much I hate Lilly, so it's slightly odd to defend her somewhat here.
I really should have copied it... All that work gone! Essentially the whole point of my post boiled down to "Lilly is an asshole, Kenny is an asshole. They're both assholes, even if Kenny is slightly less so. Also, I miss Carley. "
Trust me, The Walking Dead has more than once spurred me into ranting more than once as well. Most of the time I'm actually ranting about how much I hate Lilly, so it's slightly odd to defend her somewhat here.
Kenny isn't an asshole. He is a good person for the most part no matter what. He can be a real prick to you though if you don't have his back.
Kenny can be your best friend who always looks after you and Clem, or he can be a complete asshole who tries not to be affiliated with you.
Lilly is nowhere near the same league as Kenny, for she is a bitch 100% of your playthroughs. Kenny's personality changed, and people hated it. You either want a glued character or a spurious character whose attitude can change, well Jesus, pick one!
I can't defend Kenny in the sense he can be a terrible guy, but when I play he is either nice or a total bro. The one time I saved Larry(tried) was he pissed. And I understood why.
Kenny isn't an asshole. He is a good person for the most part no matter what. He can be a real prick to you though if you don't have his back.
Kenny can be your best friend who always looks after you and Clem, or he can be a complete asshole who tries not to be affiliated with you.
Lilly is nowhere near the same league as Kenny, for she is a bitch 100% of your playthroughs. Kenny's personality changed, and people hated it. You either want a glued character or a spurious character whose attitude can change, well Jesus, pick one!
I can't defend Kenny in the sense he can be a terrible guy, but when I play he is either nice or a total bro. The one time I saved Larry(tried) was he pissed. And I understood why.
Kenny>>>>>>>>>>>> Lilly
Not again!
I know I keep bringing it up, but the fact that Kenny would abandon Clementine in the clutches of, what is most likely, a pedophile, simply because I didn't help him kill people (despite the fact that I saved Katjaa and Duck's life maybe nearly every episode) is just despicable too me. Similarly he would leave me to die twice because I didn't help him kill Larry and his general mood was rather inhumane, contemplating leaving Omid behind, wanting Lee to drop Ben to his death, desiring Lee to allow Beatrice to suffer so they could acquire some energy bars...
I don't understand how he could be so mad at me for attempting to save Larry's life when I literally saved both Katjaa and Duck moments later. He'd even go so far as to leave me to die due to this very irregular, misplaced, grudge.
Kenny willing to abandon Clementine at the slightest disagreement between he and Lee is quite unfair. If he refused to go so he could still be around to protect Katjaa and Duck, then i could understand, but they're gone. He refuses to go only to save his own skin. His child died, why should he care for anybody else's? Sorry, but as much as i like Kenny that IS kind of detestable.
I know I keep bringing it up, but the fact that Kenny would abandon Clementine in the clutches of, what is most likely, a pedophile, simply because I didn't help him kill people (despite the fact that I saved Katjaa and Duck's life maybe nearly every episode) is just despicable too me. Similarly he would leave me to die twice because I didn't help him kill Larry and his general mood was rather inhumane, contemplating leaving Omid behind, wanting Lee to drop Ben to his death, desiring Lee to allow Beatrice to suffer so they could acquire some energy bars...
I don't understand how he could be so mad at me for attempting to save Larry's life when I literally saved both Katjaa and Duck moments later. He'd even go so far as to leave me to die due to this very irregular, misplaced, grudge.
Kenny was cool in episode one and five though.
He will despise you because trying to save Larry would put everyone at risk. You would risk trying to save someone who couldn't survive, wasting time mind you, when he could turn and kill you (who he saw as a friend and if you read certain dialogue moments he isn't fearless, since he fears to cut your hand off, is hesitant to help you in ep 3, etc. but he does it because "someone has to") and also kill everyone inside the meat locker (which means Clem), and also let the dairy people get their hands on his son and wife. So when you betray him and let him down and make "the wrong choice" to try to save Larry, Kenny sees it that you put everyone at risk, and that he saved everyone by "killing" Larry. That means that you saving his family is only because he destroyed Larry's brain in his eyes. And that the sole reason you were all alive was because he made the unpopular decision.
When choosing to leave the girl to die or shoot her, the moral choice may be to shoot the woman to put her out of her misery, but is it the right decision? If you kill her, the walkers would be on you. You may not be able to fully loot the store, and risked getting you and Kenny killed, and by extension everyone else at the motel since the place is low on supplies.
You expect him to not want Ben to die? Really? He was mostly responsible for their deaths. You don't have to drop him, and he may still go with you without hesitation. And later if you tell him Ben wanted to kill himself he will say he was thankful you were making the choice to drop him and he wasn't. I understand why he could hold a grudge on you. I think it's stupid reason, but I understand.
Kenny willing to abandon Clementine at the slightest disagreement between he and Lee is quite unfair. If he refused to go so he could still be around to protect Katjaa and Duck, then i could understand, but they're gone. He refuses to go only to save his own skin. His child died, why should he care for anybody else's? Sorry, but as much as i like Kenny that IS kind of detestable.
I know it is. I understand it, but he was being unfair and a bit of a dick. The only way I could understand would be if lee acted like a complete ass to him and/or his family.
He will despise you because trying to save Larry would put everyone at risk. You would risk trying to save someone who couldn't survive, wasting time mind you, when he could turn and kill you (who he saw as a friend and if you read certain dialogue moments he isn't fearless, since he fears to cut your hand off, is hesitant to help you in ep 3, etc. but he does it because "someone has to") and also kill everyone inside the meat locker (which means Clem), and also let the dairy people get their hands on his son and wife. So when you betray him and let him down and make "the wrong choice" to try to save Larry, Kenny sees it that you put everyone at risk, and that he saved everyone by "killing" Larry. That means that you saving his family is only because he destroyed Larry's brain in his eyes. And that the sole reason you were all alive was because he made the unpopular decision.
Oh yes, by all means Kenny can go on and on about how he might have saved everyone by killing Larry. Meanwhile my Lee takes it a step further and literally saves everyone. There's no might about it. Lee helped save Duck with Kenny at Hershel's farm, Lee defended Duck at the motor inn, Lee saved Katjaa from Parker's reanimated corpse, Lee saved Katjaa from Brenda, Lee helped save Duck with Carley from Andy, Lee saved literally everyone (save Lilly) when the bandits attacked. Oh no, but Kenny doesn't realize that. He's the hero because he killed Larry and Lee's the idiotic villain who deserves to die along with his pseudo-daughter because he didn't help.
Oh yes, totally justified.
When choosing to leave the girl to die or shoot her, the moral choice may be to shoot the woman to put her out of her misery, but is it the right decision? If you kill her, the walkers would be on you. You may not be able to fully loot the store, and risked getting you and Kenny killed, and by extension everyone else at the motel since the place is low on supplies.
If looting an already scavenged store for an extra minute is worth letting a poor girl get eaten alive, then yeah. Sure. It's not like I got 18 / 20 food items regardless or anything because Lee's, ya know, not useless like Kenny. "But Lee! If you let that girl die we would have had two extra energy bars! How could you Lee! You are never there for my family!"
You expect him to not want Ben to die? Really? He was mostly responsible for their deaths. You don't have to drop him, and he may still go with you without hesitation. And later if you tell him Ben wanted to kill himself he will say he was thankful you were making the choice to drop him and he wasn't. I understand why he could hold a grudge on you. I think it's stupid reason, but I understand.
He's an eighteen year old kid that was just trying to help. Does he expect me to dirty up my hands and get his revenge for him or something?
Kenny only starts to realize how much of an extremely huge dick he was only in episode five. Which is what made him better than Lilly, for the most part. At least he was aware that he was an asshole in the end.
For all we know, those "people" could have been walkers. If I were Kenny, and I was unsure if that thing was dead or alive, I'd keep driving too. Especially if I had my family with me. Lilly clearly saw that Lee and Co were alive out there, and with children. Kenny still leads the group during the pharmacy attack, while Lilly only cares for her father (and isn't even with him when he comes back in to the store), and Kenny is the one who goes back in, even when his family was safe, when he would have been safer staying back, just to save some guy he's known for less than 24 hours. The same guy he's known for less than 24 hours that may have left his son at Hershel's and advocated throwing him out the door with the walkers in that time.
Thats really good point. On the other hand Lily turns on you no matter what you do.
Oh yes, by all means Kenny can go on and on about how he might have saved everyone by killing Larry. Meanwhile my Lee takes it a step further and literally saves everyone. There's no might about it. Lee helped save Duck with Kenny at Hershel's farm, Lee defended Duck at the motor inn, Lee saved Katjaa from Parker's reanimated corpse, Lee saved Katjaa from Brenda, Lee helped save Duck with Carley from Andy, Lee saved literally everyone (save Lilly) when the bandits attacked. Oh no, but Kenny doesn't realize that. He's the hero because he killed Larry and Lee's the idiotic villain who deserves to die along with his pseudo-daughter because he didn't help.
Oh yes, totally justified.
If looting an already scavenged store for an extra minute is worth letting a poor girl get eaten alive, then yeah. Sure. It's not like I got 18 / 20 food items regardless or anything because Lee's, ya know, not useless like Kenny. "But Lee! If you let that girl die we would have had two extra energy bars! How could you Lee! You are never there for my family!"
He's an eighteen year old kid that was just trying to help. Does he expect me to dirty up my hands and get his revenge for him or something?
Kenny only starts to realize how much of an extremely huge dick he was only in episode five. Which is what made him better than Lilly, for the most part. At least he was aware that he was an asshole in the end.
You do realize the period between episode 3-5 is less than a week? Meaning Kenny is seriously pissed in episode 4? His sole purpose of living was to save his family, and he knew some traitor helped get them killed. However, he just tried to ignore that fact. But after all the times Ben fucks up, and Kenny's deteriorating mental state, do you not think that Kenny would want to kill the little fuck up? I mean damn, I like Ben, I've never dropped him and have remained buddies with Ken. If you save him and talk with Kenny bout him he talks about how wrong he was for wanting that. Kenny may have wanted the kid to die, but that is YOUR choice. Not his. And he understands. If you aren't bad to him he still goes with you without hesitation. And if he doesn't, he'll still wait for you with the boat ready, bitten or not he'll take you, because he still considers you a friend.
And letting the girl die is worth it. You might not see it, because to you it is a game. Kenny would see everything happening in real life. If he knew you could get all the supplies safely while still shooting the girl, he'd let you. But considering there are walkers all over, a single shot would bring all the attention on you two, seriously putting you both at risk. By extension, the people who are waiting for the supplies could also die (they were low on food and meds). So yeah, it wasn't the 'right' thing to do, but it was the smart thing. Either way could be seen as humane, because either way you are technically saving lives.
Oh yes, by all means Kenny can go on and on about how he might have saved everyone by killing Larry. Meanwhile my Lee takes it a step further and literally saves everyone. There's no might about it. Lee helped save Duck with Kenny at Hershel's farm, Lee defended Duck at the motor inn, Lee saved Katjaa from Parker's reanimated corpse, Lee saved Katjaa from Brenda, Lee helped save Duck with Carley from Andy, Lee saved literally everyone (save Lilly) when the bandits attacked. Oh no, but Kenny doesn't realize that. He's the hero because he killed Larry and Lee's the idiotic villain who deserves to die along with his pseudo-daughter because he didn't help.
Oh yes, totally justified.
If looting an already scavenged store for an extra minute is worth letting a poor girl get eaten alive, then yeah. Sure. It's not like I got 18 / 20 food items regardless or anything because Lee's, ya know, not useless like Kenny. "But Lee! If you let that girl die we would have had two extra energy bars! How could you Lee! You are never there for my family!"
He's an eighteen year old kid that was just trying to help. Does he expect me to dirty up my hands and get his revenge for him or something?
Kenny only starts to realize how much of an extremely huge dick he was only in episode five. Which is what made him better than Lilly, for the most part. At least he was aware that he was an asshole in the end.
Also, Kenny can save you in the store multiple times (he always does at least once), saves you from Larry leaving you, give you both a ride to Macon, saved EVERYONE with HIS RV, without which everyone would have eventually died b walkers or bandits. He saves everyone by helping start up the train, after LILLY left you all stranded. He saves EVERYONE by getting the armory door open, he tries to save EVERYONE by getting the boat working, he will help you by either helping you find Clem from the beginning or by by helping get the boat running, and once its gone will still go with you to find her. He tries to help multiple times by pulling you up away from harm, but unsuccessful to to his injuries. I can't always defend him, but he wasn't a bad guy. He had his quirks, his flaws, and his grudge issues, but he was still a good guy, where I see Lilly as an outright asshole. I really can't defend many of her actions. Not rightfully anyway.
Yeah that's true. But that small sign of life only means that Lilly's CPR worked. Or that he was about to reanimate. We'll never know.
Lilly's shooting of Carley was flat-out overt murder. Kenny's choice was circumstantial. He made the most logical choice imo. I sided with him because of that.
But then again I've overtly murdered characters in this game as Lee. The SaveLots woman for example. The Brothers Johns. So who am I to judge lol.
As messed up as what Lilly did to Carly was Kenny still trumps her earlier in that episode when he watches Lee struggling when he is being attacked by walkers in the drug store. He waited to see if Lee was going to die which was like when Shane left Otis in the tv show. Lilly was mentally unstable when she shot Carly, Kenny had no excuse. He even states latter in ep5 that he spent many nights hating Lee's guts.
You say that we can't knwo that Kenny saved us, and you're right. But at the same time, we don't know that Larry was alive. I was afraid he'd turn, so I helped Kenny. Do I feel bad? Yes, I do feel bad about Larry. That I helped when we didn't know if he was dead or not. Lilly still had no reason to shoot Carley, where Kenny may have had a reason to kill Larry.
If we blame the bandit raid on anyone, it can't be Kenny. Probably Ben for going behind our backs and not telling us about the deal, but Kenny fixed up the RV which allowed the group to escape. If he hadn't it's likely that no one would have made it out of the motor inn alive. And Lilly's reasoning went only as far as Larry. It was really him in charge if you think about it, because she never went against him. If she stepped out of line once with him, she was always quick to retract it. Kenny's no saint, but neither is Lilly.
And Carley/Doug's death is on Lilly, she pulled the trigger. No matter her mental state, she murdered them as much, if not more than Kenny murdered Larry. She's a danger to the group now. I personally would not let her back in, and I left her on that road without a second thought. She's no better than Kenny or Lee or anyone else. She even drives off with the RV and leaves you all stranded at the train if you take her with you after that. She straight up lies to you and says that she'll take you and Clem with her if you agree to leave in the RV, and then immediately drives away after you step out. Can't trust her any more than Kenny, or Ben, or Chuck, or anyone who isn't named Lee Everett.
In then comics Rick didn't know if Maggie was still alive but that didn't stop him and Glenn from trying to save her. Like Larry she had stopped breathing. Like Kenny Abraham wanted to destroy her brain IN CASE she reanimated. Rick held him at gun point and wouldn't allow him to shoot her until it was confirmed that she couldn't be saved. She was brought back with CPR, the same technique that Lee and Lilly were attempting before Kenny murdered Larry.
When I played I brought Larry back to life before Kenny killed him. His eyes were opening. What Kenny did was savage and cost him his relationship with his wife in later episodes. When I told his wife what Kenny did it broke her heart and probably influenced her decision to kill herself later because she couldn't take the way the world was changing everyone, including her husband and Kenny confirms in ep5 that he spent nights talking with her when she chewed him out about not caring for the rest of the group.
Kenny's actions in the meat locker were done out of selfishness,fear, impatience and his refusal to let anything get in the way of him getting to his family. If Kenny's actions were really about saving the group he would not have kept Duck's bite from the group in the following episode. It was actually his wife who convinced him to let Lee in on the truth of their son's condition and even after Kenny put the group at risk because he wanted to wait it out and find a cure for his son.
Attempting to save Larry or Maggie was a risk but in doing so the characters showed compassion and held on to their humanity. Of cause precautions in both cases would have been made. If Maggie turned she could have been shot before biting Glenn, if Larry turned Kenny could have dropped the salt lick before he attacked Lee or Lilly. He was on his back after all.
Regarding Kenny fixing the RV one he only fixed it to save his family originally and two the pick up truck that they arrived to Macon in was still working. Glenn filled it with gas before he left the motor inn in ep1 so the group could have escaped without the RV. The group didn't really need to escape the motor inn any way that was just scripted to advance the plot so they would go onto Savannah. I say this because the group could have held off the bandits and the walkers by retreating to one of the motel rooms and firing from the windows. They still had a lot of guns at that point.
Lastly I don't think Lilly would have been a danger to the whole group. She only had issues with Carly and Ben because she believed that at least one of them were guilty of taking the supplies. She didn't suspect anyone else. Had Carly and Ben have been removed from the group who else would be endangered by Lilly? She adored Clementine, trusted Lee and tolerated Kenny. I think she had good instincts. She wanted to get rid of Ben ultimately. After a few episodes so did I. When Lilly decided to steal the RV it was out of fear because in her state she believed the group would plan to kill her. When she agreed to leave with Lee and Clem she left with the RV because she didn't believe that Lee was willing to leave the group and go with her and she was right because when I chose that dialogue option I was trying to trick her. As I have said she has good instincts.
I wouldn't blame Kenny for the bandit raid but I do blame him for Lilly's descent into mental health problems. I blame him for continuously goading her. She was on her last nerve when she snapped and killed Carly. Carly's argument was the straw that broke the camels back. Lilly would have reacted differently under different circumstances. i.e if their was more harmony in the group before hand. Kenny was a ball buster plain and simple. He argued with everybody. How many times did we as Lee have to stand between him and another character and calm him down? He argued with Lilly, He argued with Christa and he argued with Molly, both of which were fairly grounded and reasonable.
Lastly I don't think Lilly would have been a danger to the whole group. She only had issues with Carly and Ben because she believed that at least one of them were guilty of taking the supplies. She didn't suspect anyone else. Had Carly and Ben have been removed from the group who else would be endangered by Lilly? She adored Clementine, trusted Lee and tolerated Kenny. I think she had good instincts. She wanted to get rid of Ben ultimately. After a few episodes so did I. Lilly deciding to steal the RV was out of fear because in her state she believed the group would plan to kill her.
I disagree with this completely. For me her choice of targets are the reason why she would have been a danger.
If she had shot Kenny i might have been able to accept that motive was pretty unlikely to ever be repeated, but in Murdering Carley she shot someone who had done nothing to her on a baseless suspicion, and an argument. With Ben she still had no evidence. They did very little to antagonize her compared to some of the others. The fact that if you remove Carley and her "take a page from Lee's book" speech she still shoots someone says it all.
At least in the state she is in by episode 3 (though there are signs of it beforehand) it is so incredibly easy to push her to murder that it could have happened to anyone. Basically all Carley does (because i believe from the dialogue that even in this version she still thinks it was Ben) is to stand up to her, Once you've killed the first time, it going to get easier.
At minimum i would say Ben, Kenn, Christa and Lee if you chose to kill Larry, would have been at serious risk if she was taken with the group and given any kind of freedom.
Yeah that's true. But that small sign of life only means that Lilly's CPR worked. Or that he was about to reanimate. We'll never know.
Lilly's shooting of Carley was flat-out overt murder. Kenny's choice was circumstantial. He made the most logical choice imo. I sided with him because of that.
But then again I've overtly murdered characters in this game as Lee. The SaveLots woman for example. The Brothers Johns. So who am I to judge lol.
Nah Larry was blatantly stirring and awaking after the 4th chest compression. his awakening was gradual unlike reanimation which is more sudden. If you don't do any that doesn't happen so if it was reanimation his mouth would have moved without you doing any compressions regardless. That was like an Easter egg moment for the few that were able to get enough compressions before Larry's head was smashed.
As messed up as what Lilly did to Carly was Kenny still trumps her earlier in that episode when he watches Lee struggling when he is being attacked by walkers in the drug store. He waited to see if Lee was going to die which was like when Shane left Otis in the tv show. Lilly was mentally unstable when she shot Carly, Kenny had no excuse. He even states latter in ep5 that he spent many nights hating Lee's guts.
He hates you if you don't back him absolutely and he can be a total dick about it, but its still nothing like Shane. Kenny however much he hates you will never actually attack you, like when Lee is pushed onto the floor he could easily do a "Shane/Otis" or a "Lilly/Carley" by shooting Lee, but for some reason he can't quite bring himself to that extreme.
If Kenny doesn't like you he will just simply leave you to your fate, which while being very heartless is nothing like actually pulling the trigger for me.
In terms of mental stability, there's only so much that can excuse from Lilly, I could live with her attitude and even the fact she left me die, but not what she did on the side of the road, Its not like the rest of the group was devoid of reasons to have a breakdown either. Carley/Doug are plagued by survivors guilt, Kenny loses his his wife and kid, Lee has his brother, the pressure to protect Clementine and then finally knowing that he is going to die, Lilly had the meat-locker incident. Only one of them has a breakdown, and really Lilly was already looking pretty ragged before her Dads death. I don't think she was cut out for the stress of leadership.
You don't know about Kenny's family on the road. They could have been walkers. Either way he was heading to Ft. Lauderdale, he wasn't staying anywhere. He also thought things would die down in a few days. He only realized things were so serious when Larry explained how people turned(which was half true). He helps Lee out because you are going the same direction. I can understand why he goes right past 'people'. For the most part, I'd do the same. You just can't trust people anymore. But if someone was in trouble, as in they desperately need my help, is where I'd help them out. Well, he helped out Lee and his little girl, who were being kicked out of the place they were taking refuge, and had no transportation, no weapons, no supplies. If Kenny hadn't given them a ride they'd of been screwed
If they were walkers, I doubt Katjaa would've referred to them as "people who needed help" (as opposed to say, "crazy people trying to beat their way into the car and eat us")... and even if they were living impaired, Kenny wouldn't have known that at the time which means for all practical purposes, he was still no better than Lilly (and in fact worse, since he drove over people according to Katjaa's account).
And the apologetic that "well, Lee's group clearly needed help" doesn't cut it either; since Katjaa eplicitly says the people Kenny drove past (and over) also needed help. If you can fault Lilly for wanting to leave Lee's group, it's incredibly hypocritical not to also fault Kenny based on the account of the man's own wife.
And with the ride Kenny gives Lee, it's pretty clear Katjaa had to guilt-trip him into it given the look she gave him... Plus, let's not forget why they were banished from Hershel's farm in the first place. Incidentally, someone else who could've used Kenny's help and what happens? Kenny leaves him to die.
I disagree with this completely. For me her choice of targets are the reason why she would have been a danger.
If she had shot Kenny i might have been able to accept that motive was pretty unlikely to ever be repeated, but in Murdering Carley she shot someone who had done nothing to her on a baseless suspicion, and an argument. With Ben she still had no evidence. They did very little to antagonize her compared to some of the others. The fact that if you remove Carley and her "take a page from Lee's book" speech she still shoots someone says it all.
Actually, it's kinda false to say she had "no evidence" when it came to Ben. We didn't have much evidence, there's a difference. There was enough for me to conclude that Ben was guilty too. First there's the fact that the theft was recent: every other member of the group had been with us for the previous three months, if they hadn't stolen anything during that time (which included a food shortage) that's a pretty good indicator that the new guy is responsible. More conclusively is the fact that Ben blurts out "I'm sorry!" while being grilled... that's hardly the act of somebody that isn't guilty, hell, it's basically a confession.
And at the day, when it came to Ben atleast, she wasn't wrong.
Actually, it's kinda false to say she had "no evidence" when it came to Ben. We didn't have much evidence, there's a difference. There was enough for me to conclude that Ben was guilty too. First there's the fact that the theft was recent: every other member of the group had been with us for the previous three months, if they hadn't stolen anything during that time (which included a food shortage) that's a pretty good indicator that the new guy is responsible. More conclusively is the fact that Ben blurts out "I'm sorry!" while being grilled... that's hardly the act of somebody that isn't guilty, hell, it's basically a confession.
And at the day, when it came to Ben atleast, she wasn't wrong.
Doesn't mean you pull a gun on them! She put a vote to who would stay or not, and she was hypocritical to try to kill him anyway. And in Lilly's case, she tried to kill Carley with no evidence, and it was proved she was innocent
Actually, it's kinda false to say she had "no evidence" when it came to Ben. We didn't have much evidence, there's a difference. There was enough for me to conclude that Ben was guilty too. First there's the fact that the theft was recent: every other member of the group had been with us for the previous three months, if they hadn't stolen anything during that time (which included a food shortage) that's a pretty good indicator that the new guy is responsible. More conclusively is the fact that Ben blurts out "I'm sorry!" while being grilled... that's hardly the act of somebody that isn't guilty, hell, it's basically a confession.
And at the day, when it came to Ben atleast, she wasn't wrong.
That's hardly evidence, it's just assumptions and theories. Now, if the group happened to find some fingerprinting tool-kits or witnesses, then it's a different story...
Maybe one of the group could have been an expert con-man, and waited so long solely to build up trust from the other survivors. Making everyone think you are the least likely candidate creates a perfect opportunity to commit the crime. Unlikely, but could have been possible. People do worse things in the zombie apocalypse.
Ben's apology could have been seen as him apologizing for doing a crappy job on watch and not killing the bandits before they got inside the inn. That IS the purpose of the watch. Since he states that he's deathly afraid of Lilly, it adds up.
Comments
Had she not lost it, she'd probably be my favorite character (well, her and Carley both are as it is, but I would've liked her more- why Kenny, why?)
What's wrong with that line?
What is she doing when you meet her, nothing, she looks like she's losing it, struggled to control her dad and when her dad collapses, she runs to strangers for help and did nothing through the whole of Episode 1. Tell me where the great leader is in that?
Maybe if you read further, you'll see why.
You're actually the third user to tell me about skipping pages. Kind of made me feel guilty for being lazy so I read all the pages. And you claim I'm repeating the same discussion? I don't think anyone brought up points that I brought up?
Like others, I was responding to your thread.
Nobody will take me seriously? dukeleto begs to differ.
I apologize for that "Fanatic" remark, didn't mean to offend. BTW, you did make Lilly out to be what she was not as if you never played the game, and also, didn't you come across a little rude to thestalkinghead guy? Just saying, I’m not the only that was apparently "rude".
Fine by me. I don't care whether you respect me or not due to me disagreeing with your points. I'm not even looking for your respect because you come across as a fanatic.
To Dukeleto:
It's not about the choices you make that affects the character to the person they become, it's about the action they take no matter what choices you make.
As a matter fact, I already did a game play where I sided with her(though I did feel like shit siding with her, made me felt like an asshole and nothing positive came out of it), I did a lot of game plays with different choices, still have the same opinion, I see no changes when you side with her or when your neutral because in the end, it'll always come with the same outcomes. I met nice Kenny & douche bag Kenny but I’ve not met a nice Lilly.
You think I’m siding with Kenny due to the choices I made that makes him likeable?
Not even close, it's not based on people's choices.
This is how it goes with the two:
You be a dick to Kenny, he's a dick to you
You be a nice to Kenny, he's a nice to you
with Lilly:
You be a dick to her, she's a selfish bitch to you
You be a nice to her, she's still a selfish bitch to you
Notice how she doesn't change. Kenny being a dick hardly causes problems for you but with Lilly, it does.
Did he push Christa down? No, how is it his fault?, she chose to go down herself and he sacrificed his own life to save her yet you still condemn that action.
And Ben, same thing, sacrificed his life in a brutal way so a teenager that got his family killed doesn't need to suffer a horrible death. He realized the way he treated him and showed remorse, has Lilly showed remorse for her actions? No, but you assumed she did and slate a character that does.
That's still not enough. They were locked in a room, what you're asking is for them to do nothing when a guy can reanimate and kill you, your friend and a little girl in that room you're in?
And why should Kenny leave? As far as he's concerned, he saved 3 peoples lives, Lilly on the other hand committed cold blooded murder.
There are no rules but there are still Morals, the characters do still possess the knowledge of knowing what's right and what's wrong. Lilly didn't.
You're still one sided and I'll give you a reason why, you fail to recognize Lilly's flaws, whereas I at least acknowledge that Kenny has flaws.
Lilly was the one that screwed everything up by pushing the group to that cannibal farm. If she hadn't, the salt lick incident would never have occurred.
OK, still not convinced that Lilly is not what she seems.
No matter what choices you make, Kenny will still offer you a ride
No matter what choices you make, Kenny will still save you in Ep 1
No matter what choices you make, Kenny will still save you by preventing Larry's reanimation
No matter what choices you make, Kenny will still take you in the RV
No matter what choices you make, Kenny is still willing to take you on the boat, bitten or not
No matter what choices you make, Kenny will still save Christa
No matter what choices you make, Kenny will still put Ben out of his misery
No matter what choices you make, Kenny will still stick with you till the end
Now with Lilly:
No matter what choices you make, Lilly will still whine at you
No matter what choices you make, Lilly will still snap at you
No matter what choices you make, Lilly will still be a hypocrite
No matter what choices you make, Lilly will still push you to the farm
No matter what choices you make, Lilly will still push you to start a witch hunt
No matter what choices you make, Lilly will still kill Carley/Doug
No matter what choices you make, Lilly will still sell you out on what you did before
No matter what choices you make, Lilly will still stab you in the back
No matter what choices you make, Lilly will still steal the RV
There, at least when Kenny's a douche, you can still change it but with Lilly, you can't change nothing and you're left making excuses for her actions.
The drinking issue?
You say Lilly is a broken woman and she gets a free pass for killing Doug/Carley.
But Kenny is a broken man but somehow, him drinking is much worse than murder?
Whether Lee was sleeping or not, he was still in charge of Clementine, you might as well blame Ben, Christa and Omid for losing her as well.
PS: Sorry for my late reply.
That reminds me, haven't seen Yami around here in ages....
Someone who agrees with me, thank you!
Kenny would literally leave me to die twice and then later leave Clementine, an nine year old girl who had nothing to do with it, just because I didn't help him kill people. Interestingly he always went on after the meat locker situation that I was never there for him, when Lee literally saved his family tons and tons of times. Even going so far as to put Duck out of his misery.
At least Lilly, whom I'm not fond of (you can deduct the reasons why by looking at my avatar and sig), had a justified reason for hating you. Because, you know, you killed the last thing she had left in this world. Also even then she was more understanding than Kenny.
"A part of me understands why you did it..."
You kidding me? Lilly was an awesome character if you attempted to save Larry, she had some great potential to be an amazing character. One of my favourite and, in my opinion, touching lines were given by her in episode three.
"[Larry] treated you like shit, knew who you were and you still tried to save his life. The last thing you need to do is apologize.
"Thank you."
"So you killed a guy? I bet he was a dick."
"Well, it did ruin my life."
"Good thing everyone else's got destroyed shortly thereafter, huh? Misery loves company."
Then there's that one quote Carley said.
"You're pretty much the last thing she has left in the world." Are you kidding me? Like I said before, Kenny leaves you to die TWICE. Despite everything I've done for him and his family he'd leave you to die because you didn't help him kill Larry. That's awful! And this is probably the most evil statement given by a character in this game.
"Lee, man... You know I care about Clementine, and I am Christian man. But if it were me, asking you for help... Would you be there for me? Because there's been plenty of times where you haven't been."
He'd leave Clementine to die just because I didn't help him kill Larry and Ben / shot Beatrice. Literally the only times I didn't help him. That's just terrible, Clementine is a nine year old girl who needs help and he'd leave her because of a grudge with Lee?
I believe this was intentional too. You play through episode one thinking Kenny is a nice guy and then in every subsequent episode you slowly start to realize that Kenny isn't as good as you may have first realized. It kind of works in reverse with Lilly, you start off hating Lilly and then you start to see a really nice soft side too her. And then she shoots Carley and then I begin to write her name in my Death Note.
Now I'm not saying Lilly is amazing or that she's better than Kenny, but stop looking at this through tinted glasses. Kenny is far from a good person, same with Lilly. They're both assholes. Lilly has some qualities I like and Kenny has some qualities that I like.
Lilly doesn't really change much at all. She's arrogant and stubborn when you first meet until the day you part. She complains about Lee's group joining, she complains about Mark joining, she complains about Ben joining. I understand that they're more mouths to feed, but she ignores that aspect as well. She knows there is no food left but refuses to leave. At first this was because they were near the pharmacy and could get medicine for Larry, but after his death she still stubbornly stays put even when she doesn't have a valid reason anymore.
Kenny might change from good guy to bad guy or vice versa, but Lilly is sort of a tyrant from day one forever.
As opposed to Lilly, who would leave Clementine, a nine year old girl who needs help, EVEN IF YOU SUPPORTED HER 100%!
Don't forget, she's the same woman who screamed at Carley for saving Clementine (and four others) back when all this started.
Lilly never gave a shit about anyone but herself and her father. You say not killing Larry and Ben doesn't make you a dick to Kenny? I agree. But if you don't side with Lilly she does everything Kenny does and far worse. And even if you side with her on everything, she abandons you and Clementine, after lying about bringing you with her.
You flip that around, and do every stupid thing Kenny wants you to do, he'll refuse to let you go alone, telling you that Lee and Clem are the only family he has left. And even if you didn't, you can guilt trip into coming anyways by playing the family card, and if you fail at that he says he'll still wait for you to get back and even take you back on the boat despite being bitten. Where as with Lilly, every combination always leads to her running off to save her own skin, possibly after admitting she planned on killing you when your back was turned.
Kenny was a decent guy who turned into a selfish asshole as things got worse, but Lilly was a selfish asshole who turned into an amoral sociopath. It's most obvious in episode one. The second shit hits the fan Lilly's gone and her father only stays behind to murder Lee, where as Kenny saves you even if you've been an ass to him all episode. I'm not a big Kenny fan, but you're crazy to act like he was as bad as Lilly.
You say Lilly is a great character, I agree, she's a great VILLAIN. And she's a great villain because she hides the fact she's a villain for so long. She's a manipulative shrew who used her bully of a father as leverage to crown herself leader so she can justify sitting somewhere safe while people like Kenny, Lee, Mark and the like take all the risks to get things like pills for Lilly's would be murderer father Larry. She lies about protecting everyone else while she sits safe and sound and dismisses anyone who questions her awful leadership. Once Larry's gone and she doesn't have him to make her look better by comparison her true nature comes out.
Kenny can be a massive asshole, but he was never shy about doing what he thought needed to be done. Sometimes that caused him to do some supremely stupid shit, but it also meant he'd dive right into whatever dangerous situation he felt was in his interests. That's why no matter what, he's out hunting in episode two, he's heading back to the pharmacy in episode three, off to Crawford in four, and depending on how he feels about Lee, may even come with you after Clem.
He didn't sit around on a lawn chair and expect other people to take care of him 24/7 like Lilly did. Lilly wanted to leave Lee and everyone to die outside of the pharmacy. Lilly does jack shit to defend the pharmacy during the attack. Lilly sits on watch while Kenny, Mark and Lee try to get supplies. Then, Lilly gives Ben watch and hides in her room when bandits pose a threat to whoever is on watch. And when bandits finally attack she sends Lee out as bait while she finds somewhere nice and far away to snipe them from. And all this happens even if you support her.
The only remotely heroic thing she does is attack the St. Johns, only after Lee and Kenny go first, only if you side with her, and even then she hangs back in the safety of the barn with the only gun available. And that's the best case scenario. And even then she's acting out of revenge, not a sense of protecting anyone. It's pretty obvious when you don't side with her she just stands there while Andy tries to murder Lee, and Clem looks on in horror as she realizes what's happening. Lilly's thinking, this way two people who were responsible for my father's death will die. She was thinking she'd be killing two birds with one stone.
Depending on how Kenny thinks you "slight" him, he can be a real piece of shit. Lilly however always ends up as a monster, no matter what you do for her, and will always end up shooting one of the most selfless people in your group. She'd probably fit right in once she got to Woodbury, all she might not have liked Crawford, they'd expect her to pull her own weight.
Great point as usual. I think Lilly is a well written character, just not a likable one for many. Heck, the fact many players dislike her is proof she's a great character because the writers did a good job of getting people riled up.
Kinda reminds me of how satisfied I am watching this scene from Game of Thrones:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYNeT2nzEgA
Martin is a good writer for making people hate a kid!
While I disagree with a lot of points you make concerning Lilly and Kenny I can understand them.The one I don't understand is the one concerning Lilly not helping a Lee who held her back while Kenny smashed her father's skull?!
I find it hard to imagine that any more than a tiny minority would have actively help Lee in that situation(unless you really hated your Dad).Personally I would have found it hard not to give Lee a third eye,when Andy was trying to fry him,if he had done the same to my father.Someone I thought I could have saved,only ten minutes ago.
Concerning Lilly staying back in the barn,If I remember correctly,doesnt she say "Go, I'll look after Clementine"(pro Lee) or Lee himself even tells her to stay and look after Clem(anti Lee).Should Lee have taken Clem with him to confront the St john's,left Clem on her own with Danny(dead or alive) and Larry's body or defenceless by taking the gun from Lilly?
I also remember the fact that Kenny was sitting down and playing with a pipe while Larry and Mark worked on the defences and Lee struggled with a walker attacking Kenny's wife.I thought the reason that Lilly was sitting in her chair was because she was acting as a lookout for the group from her deckchair on top of the RV(one of the few members who had previous use with firearms).Kenny took a while to notice his wife was being attacked...
While Lilly did eventually do a monstrous thing I think your hate,rage and hindsight is making you very selective in your points and the way you justify her previous actions
Kenny was working on the RV, and at that moment was taking a break. The pipe was something he was working on. What the hell could he do about his wife? Lilly puts most the weapons up when they are at the Motel. That and he was one of those farthest away from her when she was being attacked. Why didn't Lilly shoot her? She had a rifle in her hands, and was right in range to kill the walker. It took Carley as long as she did to kill the walker, how could Kenny who was father away? And no, her previous actions can't be selective. She barely does anything really, despite being a leader.
I cant believe people are still tryin to defend her. Everyone lost someone. Kenny shot his son in the face and didnt go killin other group members. JADED X said it best she is a villian. Farmer talks about lily protecting clem in the barn from what lee already dealt with the situtation while she sat on her ass. Kenny maybe a dick and even when losses it he manages to regain himself w/o killing his group.
Oh am I? Let's challenge that notion shall we?
Lilly letting Lee die being justifiable. Yeah, I understand why she would let that happen, she wants revenge. That doesn't make it justified, it just means there's a motive. I didn't say I didn't understand why she did that, I said it shows you what a cold blooded bitch she can be. She's got the cannibal whack job whose responsible for everyone's plight right there with an easy shot, and will do nothing because she wants Lee dead. Personal vendetta aside, she's putting everyone in danger by not eliminating a massive threat because of a grudge.
You'd done the same? Well that's your choice. It's not what I would do. From a purely moral standpoint it's just petty vengeance, wanting to kill someone who caused harm to you for no other reason than wanting to do harm. From a pragmatist's point of view, you're letting one of the most useful members of the group die for doing something that may have been necessary. And looking at the episode three stats, a slim majority let Lilly back in the R.V. less than a minute after senselessly murdering someone herself, myself included on my first playthrough. So you're wrong on thinking most everyone would act like you and Lilly would.
As for her staying in the barn. She sometimes says she'll cover you depending on whenever you kill Danny or not I believe. If Lilly was proactive she'd be covering Lee the whole time and if she did as much as wait OUTSIDE the barn she probably could have shot Andy the second he came outside. Clementine is no stranger to hiding during dangerous situations and the barn was full of empty stalls and taking out the other St. Johns in some manner was crucial to everyone's survival.
If Lilly wanted to just protect Clementine she should have given Lee the rifle since he was the one going after the remaining St. Johns. The barn has only one way in and there's no shortage of blunt and sharp instruments of pain lying around to use as melee weapons. But she does neither of these things. She keeps the gun and stays in the barn during almost the entire conflict. Carley, Doug, and technically even fucking Ben chance coming into the dairy to help Lee. Lilly doesn't.
She doesn't because she's scared, but she won't admit it, so she either tells you it's because of protecting Clementine or she's "covering" you, of which she does a terrible job. And I'm so glad you mention the incident with Parker/Travis coming back to life. You're giving Kenny shit for taking a break after hunting all morning and having to shoot a bunch of walkers and point out Lilly is on watch protecting people. Tell me, why didn't she do anything about the sudden zombie attack?
She had a rifle in hand, about twenty feet away from where a reanimated Band Teacher/Student was trying to eat Lee, and at a certain point Lee shoves it up against the back window of the pick-up, giving Lilly a great shot at it from her position. And yet she doesn't shoot it, or do anything during this whole conflict despite being "on watch". Realistically the developers probably just forgot about her during that scene, but Lilly being infective seems pretty consistent through out most of the game.
You like to think this is all "Lilly killed Carley = I hate Lilly" but stealing the R.V. did a lot more to make me hate her than that. I didn't hate Lilly on my first playthrough, I pitied her for the most part. It wasn't her monstrous action that made me hate her, it was everything else I noticed on my repeat playthroughs. Her hypocrisy, her pettiness, her complete lack of empathy, her incompetence as a leader, her refusal to ever risk her own life or even work and her piss poor justifications.
You're trying to say I'm so blinded by her single greatest act of wickedness that I forget all the good she did, I'm saying that single act actually was just the one people remember in a about three episodes worth of despicable behavior. Lilly wasn't some badass hero driven to the breaking point, she was a frightened bureaucrat who seated herself in a position of power purely for self protection. And she was content to let others do the heavy lifting for her provided she and daddy were safe. Plenty of people hated her long before she shot Doug or Carley.
Lilly was a bad leader and pretty much a bitch from Day 1. It takes Kenny three months to turn into one, and that's after the group goes through some seriously messed up stuff. He's a huge ass to anyone he doesn't like, but he'll always have your back if you have his (almost always have his. One of his unfortunate personality flaws, much like freezing up at Hershel's when Shawn needed him.) Lilly abandons you though, no matter how much time you spents bending over for her and her jerkass father. She lies straight to your face about it too.
"Go get Clementine. We'll all leave together." I'm sure everyone knows what happens after that. She screws over Ben, Kenny and his family, Lee, and Clem. Leaving two children, three adults, and an idiot to die on the side of the road, especially if one of those people had been the only person who ever had your back, is just low. Selfish. I don't blame her, actually, for hating Kenny or Lee (because I helped Kenny in the meat locker) but when she blew Carley's brains all over the road just for standing up to her, I lost all my sympathy for her. I left her on the side of the road. If she was willing to kill one of the group's most kind and helpful members because she guessed, I expected Kenny and Lee to wake up to the sound of her slashing our throats in the night. Followed by her complaining about why everyone else is mistreating her for murdering us because we made sure her father didn't turn.
No matter how many times Kenny leaves Lee to die, he always comes around in Episode 5. Especially if Ben is present. Unlike Lilly, he'll realize how big of a dick he's been acting like, and apologizes to the kid who got his wife and child killed. Less than a week after they died. Less than a day after he found out it was Ben. A week after the dairy, and Lilly is going trigger happy amongst her fellow group members. Then leaves them all to die if given the chance. Leaving the group by leaving everyone to die seems a stark contrast to at least trying to save someone, and giving your life so that they don't have to suffer, or jumping into a dark hole to save some woman you've only known for a couple days by giving your life instead.
Feel free to jump in, I don't mind and surely others don't either.
And as I said, I'm not making excuses for Kenny leaving you but the Larry thing is the only one that pisses him off and makes him against you, that's it, his situation is understandable as Larry can reanimate and kill anyone at any time.
I wouldn't say Kenny left Clementine and I'll get to the reasonings for that. The thing with those scenarios can be changeable. Kenny does leave you but like I said, he sticks with you till the end and makes up for it later on. With Kenny's character, you have two options, not siding with him and he won’t have your back but if you do side with him, he'll have your back. His hate towards you is understandable because from his point of view, you turn your back on him by trying to help a reckless loose canon that tried to murder you and will do so if he gets a chance again. BTW, if you say the right words like bring family into your defense, he'll go with you. With him, he can come with you, with Lilly, there’s not.
Lilly had a justified reason as well. There's no denying it. But saying you killed Larry, how do we know if he would've lived?
Not to mention as someone pointed, killing the cannibals who caused her dad’s death was more important than the grudge she had. It's not like you enjoyed killing Larry.
And also, when Kenny hated you, he took it out on you, Lilly on the other hand, took it out on everybody else!
Wait, What??!!
You said you're not fond of her now you say she's an awesome character??!!
If you read what I wrote, I said I did a lot of game plays and different choices, meaning I did try and save Larry, she was still the same hothead, she was still a bitch(but not a bigger bitch to when you did kill her dad) but still a bitch.
Remember this line:
"I'm a murderer? You had Lee with you this whole time"
Even though you side with her, even though you try to save her douchebag dad, even though you let her back in the RV, she still says this, she puts you in the spot no matter what. And yeah, I didn't tell her because it's none of her business. She didn't consider your feelings to why you didn't tell anyone else. Looks like siding with her and trying to save her bastard of a dad meant nothing to her. That was a stab in the back.
That's what Carley thought, but that's not the way Lilly thinks of you.
And Lilly stabbed you in the back and left you dead no matter what choices you make. At least you can change it with Kenny and not to mention, he doesn't put you in situations where you are in danger. But in the end, he redeems himself with you no matter the choices you made to piss him off.
You think that's evil? That's just a big "F*** YOU, YOU'RE ON YOUR OWN, YOU NEVER HELPED ME, WHY SHOULD I HELP YOU?" from Kenny.
The line from Lilly after she killed Carley where she says she had to do it shows how messed up she is. She killed someone with no proof, who never did a damn thing to you and she was not sorry for it, 3 months spent with her and she never felt anything for her. When Kenny killed Larry, he was sorry, showed remorse, he didn't even want to do it, with Lilly, it was the opposite.
As I said, he didn't leave Clementine, if he took the boat and split, that would be leaving her but instead he decided to stay and wait. Besides, Lilly abandoned Clementine, left Clementine for dead, that's what you call leaving and that’s much worse than Kenny not going with you.
What do you mean by tinted glasses and didn’t you say Lilly is awesome?
You think I don't see that Kenny has flaws whether the decisions fit him or not. Lilly had no qualities to like.
Kenny can be a lot of things, but a bad person he is not. You meet him, he offers you a ride and saves you no matter how you treated him. He sticks with you till the end and the choices he made saved lives, he can be harsh but made decisions that were best for the group. Lilly did nothing for you no matter the choices you make, you do all the work, she makes decisions that is fit for herself and her dad but not anyone else, it's indicated she even gives her dad extra food. She was a hypocritical coward, a backstabber that didn't give a damn about others besides her dad. At least you can say this, Kenny never killed an innocent person and showed no remorse but Lilly has. And in the end, Kenny stuck it out with you no matter what and sacrificed his own life for Ben/Christa. In the end, that makes Kenny a much better person than Lilly(who is up there with The Governor).
To Jaded X Gamer
Well said. Good catching too. Did not notice that, thank you for finding another reason that makes her useless & unlikeable.
That's not really true about Kenny, I've pointed this out in the past. Katjaa says as much at Hershel's farm "we drove by so many people who needed help... over some". The only difference is that it wasn't with "us", so people seem to forget about it. The fact remains that Kenny was apparently leaving people for dead before Lilly was, atleast as far as we can tell.
And of course, there's the apologetic that Kenny only became "cold" once things had been going downhill for a while (which isn't true according to the guy's own wife). Lilly's group wasn't exactly having a picnic in Macon when we come across them, we know they had already seen someone get bit/reanimate, and potentially saw another group of people get killed and eaten (Doug's account of their attempt to break into the hardware store).
By comparison, the time we had at the farm pretty much was a picnic compared to what was apparently going on in the cities.
You don't know about Kenny's family on the road. They could have been walkers. Either way he was heading to Ft. Lauderdale, he wasn't staying anywhere. He also thought things would die down in a few days. He only realized things were so serious when Larry explained how people turned(which was half true). He helps Lee out because you are going the same direction. I can understand why he goes right past 'people'. For the most part, I'd do the same. You just can't trust people anymore. But if someone was in trouble, as in they desperately need my help, is where I'd help them out. Well, he helped out Lee and his little girl, who were being kicked out of the place they were taking refuge, and had no transportation, no weapons, no supplies. If Kenny hadn't given them a ride they'd of been screwed
So fuck it.
This is why I always hit "Copy" for my whole post before submitting a post, there's like one to four odds you'll get a blank screen. Hope you didn't take anything I said too seriously, Lilly rants just tend to pour out of me on occasion.
Trust me, The Walking Dead has more than once spurred me into ranting more than once as well. Most of the time I'm actually ranting about how much I hate Lilly, so it's slightly odd to defend her somewhat here.
Kenny isn't an asshole. He is a good person for the most part no matter what. He can be a real prick to you though if you don't have his back.
Kenny can be your best friend who always looks after you and Clem, or he can be a complete asshole who tries not to be affiliated with you.
Lilly is nowhere near the same league as Kenny, for she is a bitch 100% of your playthroughs. Kenny's personality changed, and people hated it. You either want a glued character or a spurious character whose attitude can change, well Jesus, pick one!
I can't defend Kenny in the sense he can be a terrible guy, but when I play he is either nice or a total bro. The one time I saved Larry(tried) was he pissed. And I understood why.
Kenny>>>>>>>>>>>> Lilly
I know I keep bringing it up, but the fact that Kenny would abandon Clementine in the clutches of, what is most likely, a pedophile, simply because I didn't help him kill people (despite the fact that I saved Katjaa and Duck's life maybe nearly every episode) is just despicable too me. Similarly he would leave me to die twice because I didn't help him kill Larry and his general mood was rather inhumane, contemplating leaving Omid behind, wanting Lee to drop Ben to his death, desiring Lee to allow Beatrice to suffer so they could acquire some energy bars...
I don't understand how he could be so mad at me for attempting to save Larry's life when I literally saved both Katjaa and Duck moments later. He'd even go so far as to leave me to die due to this very irregular, misplaced, grudge.
Kenny was cool in episode one and five though.
He will despise you because trying to save Larry would put everyone at risk. You would risk trying to save someone who couldn't survive, wasting time mind you, when he could turn and kill you (who he saw as a friend and if you read certain dialogue moments he isn't fearless, since he fears to cut your hand off, is hesitant to help you in ep 3, etc. but he does it because "someone has to") and also kill everyone inside the meat locker (which means Clem), and also let the dairy people get their hands on his son and wife. So when you betray him and let him down and make "the wrong choice" to try to save Larry, Kenny sees it that you put everyone at risk, and that he saved everyone by "killing" Larry. That means that you saving his family is only because he destroyed Larry's brain in his eyes. And that the sole reason you were all alive was because he made the unpopular decision.
When choosing to leave the girl to die or shoot her, the moral choice may be to shoot the woman to put her out of her misery, but is it the right decision? If you kill her, the walkers would be on you. You may not be able to fully loot the store, and risked getting you and Kenny killed, and by extension everyone else at the motel since the place is low on supplies.
You expect him to not want Ben to die? Really? He was mostly responsible for their deaths. You don't have to drop him, and he may still go with you without hesitation. And later if you tell him Ben wanted to kill himself he will say he was thankful you were making the choice to drop him and he wasn't. I understand why he could hold a grudge on you. I think it's stupid reason, but I understand.
I know it is. I understand it, but he was being unfair and a bit of a dick. The only way I could understand would be if lee acted like a complete ass to him and/or his family.
Oh yes, totally justified.
If looting an already scavenged store for an extra minute is worth letting a poor girl get eaten alive, then yeah. Sure. It's not like I got 18 / 20 food items regardless or anything because Lee's, ya know, not useless like Kenny. "But Lee! If you let that girl die we would have had two extra energy bars! How could you Lee! You are never there for my family!"
He's an eighteen year old kid that was just trying to help. Does he expect me to dirty up my hands and get his revenge for him or something?
Kenny only starts to realize how much of an extremely huge dick he was only in episode five. Which is what made him better than Lilly, for the most part. At least he was aware that he was an asshole in the end.
Thats really good point. On the other hand Lily turns on you no matter what you do.
You do realize the period between episode 3-5 is less than a week? Meaning Kenny is seriously pissed in episode 4? His sole purpose of living was to save his family, and he knew some traitor helped get them killed. However, he just tried to ignore that fact. But after all the times Ben fucks up, and Kenny's deteriorating mental state, do you not think that Kenny would want to kill the little fuck up? I mean damn, I like Ben, I've never dropped him and have remained buddies with Ken. If you save him and talk with Kenny bout him he talks about how wrong he was for wanting that. Kenny may have wanted the kid to die, but that is YOUR choice. Not his. And he understands. If you aren't bad to him he still goes with you without hesitation. And if he doesn't, he'll still wait for you with the boat ready, bitten or not he'll take you, because he still considers you a friend.
And letting the girl die is worth it. You might not see it, because to you it is a game. Kenny would see everything happening in real life. If he knew you could get all the supplies safely while still shooting the girl, he'd let you. But considering there are walkers all over, a single shot would bring all the attention on you two, seriously putting you both at risk. By extension, the people who are waiting for the supplies could also die (they were low on food and meds). So yeah, it wasn't the 'right' thing to do, but it was the smart thing. Either way could be seen as humane, because either way you are technically saving lives.
Also, Kenny can save you in the store multiple times (he always does at least once), saves you from Larry leaving you, give you both a ride to Macon, saved EVERYONE with HIS RV, without which everyone would have eventually died b walkers or bandits. He saves everyone by helping start up the train, after LILLY left you all stranded. He saves EVERYONE by getting the armory door open, he tries to save EVERYONE by getting the boat working, he will help you by either helping you find Clem from the beginning or by by helping get the boat running, and once its gone will still go with you to find her. He tries to help multiple times by pulling you up away from harm, but unsuccessful to to his injuries. I can't always defend him, but he wasn't a bad guy. He had his quirks, his flaws, and his grudge issues, but he was still a good guy, where I see Lilly as an outright asshole. I really can't defend many of her actions. Not rightfully anyway.
When I played I brought Larry back to life before Kenny killed him. His eyes were opening. What Kenny did was savage and cost him his relationship with his wife in later episodes. When I told his wife what Kenny did it broke her heart and probably influenced her decision to kill herself later because she couldn't take the way the world was changing everyone, including her husband and Kenny confirms in ep5 that he spent nights talking with her when she chewed him out about not caring for the rest of the group.
Kenny's actions in the meat locker were done out of selfishness,fear, impatience and his refusal to let anything get in the way of him getting to his family. If Kenny's actions were really about saving the group he would not have kept Duck's bite from the group in the following episode. It was actually his wife who convinced him to let Lee in on the truth of their son's condition and even after Kenny put the group at risk because he wanted to wait it out and find a cure for his son.
Attempting to save Larry or Maggie was a risk but in doing so the characters showed compassion and held on to their humanity. Of cause precautions in both cases would have been made. If Maggie turned she could have been shot before biting Glenn, if Larry turned Kenny could have dropped the salt lick before he attacked Lee or Lilly. He was on his back after all.
Regarding Kenny fixing the RV one he only fixed it to save his family originally and two the pick up truck that they arrived to Macon in was still working. Glenn filled it with gas before he left the motor inn in ep1 so the group could have escaped without the RV. The group didn't really need to escape the motor inn any way that was just scripted to advance the plot so they would go onto Savannah. I say this because the group could have held off the bandits and the walkers by retreating to one of the motel rooms and firing from the windows. They still had a lot of guns at that point.
Lastly I don't think Lilly would have been a danger to the whole group. She only had issues with Carly and Ben because she believed that at least one of them were guilty of taking the supplies. She didn't suspect anyone else. Had Carly and Ben have been removed from the group who else would be endangered by Lilly? She adored Clementine, trusted Lee and tolerated Kenny. I think she had good instincts. She wanted to get rid of Ben ultimately. After a few episodes so did I. When Lilly decided to steal the RV it was out of fear because in her state she believed the group would plan to kill her. When she agreed to leave with Lee and Clem she left with the RV because she didn't believe that Lee was willing to leave the group and go with her and she was right because when I chose that dialogue option I was trying to trick her. As I have said she has good instincts.
I wouldn't blame Kenny for the bandit raid but I do blame him for Lilly's descent into mental health problems. I blame him for continuously goading her. She was on her last nerve when she snapped and killed Carly. Carly's argument was the straw that broke the camels back. Lilly would have reacted differently under different circumstances. i.e if their was more harmony in the group before hand. Kenny was a ball buster plain and simple. He argued with everybody. How many times did we as Lee have to stand between him and another character and calm him down? He argued with Lilly, He argued with Christa and he argued with Molly, both of which were fairly grounded and reasonable.
I disagree with this completely. For me her choice of targets are the reason why she would have been a danger.
If she had shot Kenny i might have been able to accept that motive was pretty unlikely to ever be repeated, but in Murdering Carley she shot someone who had done nothing to her on a baseless suspicion, and an argument. With Ben she still had no evidence. They did very little to antagonize her compared to some of the others. The fact that if you remove Carley and her "take a page from Lee's book" speech she still shoots someone says it all.
At least in the state she is in by episode 3 (though there are signs of it beforehand) it is so incredibly easy to push her to murder that it could have happened to anyone. Basically all Carley does (because i believe from the dialogue that even in this version she still thinks it was Ben) is to stand up to her, Once you've killed the first time, it going to get easier.
At minimum i would say Ben, Kenn, Christa and Lee if you chose to kill Larry, would have been at serious risk if she was taken with the group and given any kind of freedom.
He hates you if you don't back him absolutely and he can be a total dick about it, but its still nothing like Shane. Kenny however much he hates you will never actually attack you, like when Lee is pushed onto the floor he could easily do a "Shane/Otis" or a "Lilly/Carley" by shooting Lee, but for some reason he can't quite bring himself to that extreme.
If Kenny doesn't like you he will just simply leave you to your fate, which while being very heartless is nothing like actually pulling the trigger for me.
In terms of mental stability, there's only so much that can excuse from Lilly, I could live with her attitude and even the fact she left me die, but not what she did on the side of the road, Its not like the rest of the group was devoid of reasons to have a breakdown either. Carley/Doug are plagued by survivors guilt, Kenny loses his his wife and kid, Lee has his brother, the pressure to protect Clementine and then finally knowing that he is going to die, Lilly had the meat-locker incident. Only one of them has a breakdown, and really Lilly was already looking pretty ragged before her Dads death. I don't think she was cut out for the stress of leadership.
If they were walkers, I doubt Katjaa would've referred to them as "people who needed help" (as opposed to say, "crazy people trying to beat their way into the car and eat us")... and even if they were living impaired, Kenny wouldn't have known that at the time which means for all practical purposes, he was still no better than Lilly (and in fact worse, since he drove over people according to Katjaa's account).
And the apologetic that "well, Lee's group clearly needed help" doesn't cut it either; since Katjaa eplicitly says the people Kenny drove past (and over) also needed help. If you can fault Lilly for wanting to leave Lee's group, it's incredibly hypocritical not to also fault Kenny based on the account of the man's own wife.
And with the ride Kenny gives Lee, it's pretty clear Katjaa had to guilt-trip him into it given the look she gave him... Plus, let's not forget why they were banished from Hershel's farm in the first place. Incidentally, someone else who could've used Kenny's help and what happens? Kenny leaves him to die.
Actually, it's kinda false to say she had "no evidence" when it came to Ben. We didn't have much evidence, there's a difference. There was enough for me to conclude that Ben was guilty too. First there's the fact that the theft was recent: every other member of the group had been with us for the previous three months, if they hadn't stolen anything during that time (which included a food shortage) that's a pretty good indicator that the new guy is responsible. More conclusively is the fact that Ben blurts out "I'm sorry!" while being grilled... that's hardly the act of somebody that isn't guilty, hell, it's basically a confession.
And at the day, when it came to Ben atleast, she wasn't wrong.
Doesn't mean you pull a gun on them! She put a vote to who would stay or not, and she was hypocritical to try to kill him anyway. And in Lilly's case, she tried to kill Carley with no evidence, and it was proved she was innocent
That's hardly evidence, it's just assumptions and theories. Now, if the group happened to find some fingerprinting tool-kits or witnesses, then it's a different story...
Maybe one of the group could have been an expert con-man, and waited so long solely to build up trust from the other survivors. Making everyone think you are the least likely candidate creates a perfect opportunity to commit the crime. Unlikely, but could have been possible. People do worse things in the zombie apocalypse.
Ben's apology could have been seen as him apologizing for doing a crappy job on watch and not killing the bandits before they got inside the inn. That IS the purpose of the watch. Since he states that he's deathly afraid of Lilly, it adds up.