Blatantly false. Lilly specifically says "they can stay until Katjaa's done working on that guy, but then after that they have to go." due to the fact they just don't have enough food to take in new people.
The closest anyone comes to advocating kicking them out right off the bat is Larry when he says that Lee and company shouldn't have brought them back in the first place.
You're right on the first part, though it's easy to miss because she only says it if you side with her, all over dialogue choices she never says such a thing.
The second part, however is an outright lie. Lilly's second line in the episode and first to Lee is chewing him out for bringing new people to the inn. There aren't many different ways that can be interpreted.
Edit: apologies for making a double post, i should've edited my original...
You're right on the first part, though it's easy to miss because she only says it if you side with her, all over dialogue choices she never says such a thing.
The second part, however is an outright lie. Lilly's second line in the episode and first to Lee is chewing him out for bringing new people to the inn. There aren't many different ways that can be interpreted.
Edit: apologies for making a double post, i should've edited my original...
And she tells Mark the only reason he's there was because he had food, and she yelled at Carley and Glenn for not letting five people get eaten outside the drug store, and if you don't ditch her on the side of the road she steals the R.V. and finally leaves fucking everyone behind.
Leaving people to die was practically Lilly's Calling Card.
Lee had no choice but to follow Lily's crazy plan. What is he going to do? Argue with her? Tackle her? Not with bandits holding Clem. Lee could of made terms. Agreed to half the supplies then abandon the place in a day or so. The bandits held up their end with Ben for three days more than enough time to get out.
You really think that they weren't spying on the camp and that they would just let you go? Let their golden chicken escape? Yeah, right...
Remember that even crazy Jolene managed to spy on them for days without even being notice. Now, imagine a large group of bandits with a lot more resources. And also, there is something else that needs to be pointed out. Just because these particular bandits weren't very smart, it doesn't mean that their group does not have smart members or a powerful Governor/Neagan type of leader.
Probably the same reason people despise those who murder their loved ones...
Eh, I'm still under the belief that Kenny and Lilly are both the same level assholes. I think people are just seeing Lilly the way they are because she killed their beloved Carley... I'm a big fan of Carley, obviously, and I wouldn't say I forgive her but... I do understand what she did? She snapped and blindly lashed out. When Kenny snapped I'm willing to bet if Lee wasn't there he would have literally ripped Ben to pieces (emphasis on that literally).
I don't know man. I don't like Lilly but I don't see her as a soulless harpy as so many other see her as...
Eh, I'm still under the belief that Kenny and Lilly are both the same level assholes. I think people are just seeing Lilly the way they are because she killed their beloved Carley... I'm a big fan of Carley, obviously, and I wouldn't say I forgive her but... I do understand what she did? She snapped and blindly lashed out. When Kenny snapped I'm willing to bet if Lee wasn't there he would have literally ripped Ben to pieces (emphasis on that literally).
I don't know man. I don't like Lilly but I don't see her as a soulless harpy as so many other see her as...
I'm not saying what Kenny almost certainly would have done would have been right, but lets compare motivations not just the act. Ben's incompetence and cowardice got his wife and son killed. He is also only acts when he can be completely certain it was him. Lilly lashes out at Carley based on what exactly? She called her a bitch (which was completely called for) and then Lilly kills her on no more than a hunch.
Both crimes, but in no sense equal crimes. Had Lilly took a shot at Kenny for example, after what he did to her dad, now then maybe i could understand.
Eh, I'm still under the belief that Kenny and Lilly are both the same level assholes. I think people are just seeing Lilly the way they are because she killed their beloved Carley... I'm a big fan of Carley, obviously, and I wouldn't say I forgive her but... I do understand what she did? She snapped and blindly lashed out. When Kenny snapped I'm willing to bet if Lee wasn't there he would have literally ripped Ben to pieces (emphasis on that literally).
I don't know man. I don't like Lilly but I don't see her as a soulless harpy as so many other see her as...
Everyone has family. Should they forgive someone who kills their parent/sibling/child/significant other just because they insulted them? I don't agree with Carley's outburst but there is no excuse for murder unless you have to do it to survive.
Kenny is also an asshole, but if he wanted Ben dead he probably would have used a gun instead of lunging for him. Don't try to say they didn't have any because everyone had guns during episode 3, Kenny still had one at the beginning of episode 4 AND he had a rifle when they first entered Crawford. I don't know where all those went but they have to be somewhere.
Everyone has family. Should they forgive someone who kills their parent/sibling/child/significant other just because they insulted them? I don't agree with Carley's outburst but there is no excuse for murder unless you have to do it to survive.
Kenny is also an asshole, but if he wanted Ben dead he probably would have used a gun instead of lunging for him. Don't try to say they didn't have any because everyone had guns during episode 3, Kenny still had one at the beginning of episode 4 AND he had a rifle when they first entered Crawford. I don't know where all those went but they have to be somewhere.
He gave Lee the shotgun in the stairwell, coulda used that too, he didn't though - but maybe he just wanted to beat the shit out of Ben? However the difference is - Kenny listened to reason, well on the other hand no one stopped Lilly, Kenny was stopped as he reached for Ben, Lilly wasn't, maybe talking some sense into her would have helped, but we never got the chance. I don't forgive Lilly for what she has done, and she'd better not show up in S2 or she'll regret it. She killed an innocent for speaking up and calling her a bitch, which as it turns out is no understatement.
Everyone has family. Should they forgive someone who kills their parent/sibling/child/significant other just because they insulted them? I don't agree with Carley's outburst but there is no excuse for murder unless you have to do it to survive.
It wasn't just an insult that made Lilly kill Carley, it was everything Lilly went through that made her kill Carley. She reached her tipping point and, like I said, lashed out blindly without thought. Her face after she shot Carley just screamed "wait... What did I just do." Maybe if Kenny treated her better following what happened (yes, apparently Kenny continued to treat her like a dick after what happened. Lee even has the option to bring it up), if she was given time to grieve and get over what happened, then she might not have tipped over the edge.
Kenny is also an asshole, but if he wanted Ben dead he probably would have used a gun instead of lunging for him. Don't try to say they didn't have any because everyone had guns during episode 3, Kenny still had one at the beginning of episode 4 AND he had a rifle when they first entered Crawford. I don't know where all those went but they have to be somewhere.
Are you seriously going to say Kenny didn't want Ben dead when he pushed Lee into dropping Ben and later says "Lee should have left you in Crawford" in episode five.
It wasn't just an insult that made Lilly kill Carley.
No, it was the fact that Lilly had an irrational hatred of Carley for petty reasons. I'm sick of this crap about Carley setting Lilly off or her being unstable, she wanted Carley gone no matter what anyone said. Maybe her instability pushed her to outright murder but she hated Carley simply because Carley never respected Lilly's non-existent authority.
And no amount of talking was going to change that. If Doug is in your group she tries to murder Ben after five solid minutes of his non-stop cowering. You really think if Carley kept quiet it would have saved her? What does Lilly being unstable even have to do with her hating Carley? Carley didn't kill her dad, Carley didn't treat her badly. Yet Lilly singles Carley out long before Carley sticks up for herself.
Lilly immediately accuses Carley, not Ben, Carley of stealing. The same woman who gunned down bandits and walkers alike to protect the group, and Lilly immediately assumes she's a traitor. She tells Ben that if he says Carley did it, everything is "right as rain". Her last demand to Ben is for him to say Carley did it and not him. All of this BEFORE Carley called Lilly a bitch. Carley is consistently her target and she only accuses Ben in attempts to get him to snitch on Carley. Carley only finally told Lilly off after several minutes of unfounded accusations and threats, but the intent to get rid of Carley was already laid bare for everyone to see.
She doesn't regret killing Carley, the first thing she says afterwards is "She couldn't be trusted! I swear!" Her face says "What did I just do to myself!" She never says she's sorry and she never asks for forgiveness because in her eyes she didn't do anything all that wrong. Her only regret was by killing Carley it turned the group against her. If they had for some bizarre reason agreed with what she did she could care less.
Far as I'm concerned I gave Lilly her second chance when I let her back in the R.V., and she used it to stab me in the back. She didn't want to talk about what she did, or what happened, she just took the first chance she could to save her own skin, and this is how she acts if you go out of you way to help her! All the time she sat on her ass somewhere safe while everyone else, including Carley, went out and took all the risks, then she murders the same person who's been helping protect her, and when that goes over poorly she ditched everyone when they were no longer any use to her.
So yeah, I'll take that asshole Kenny over Lilly any day of the week. He lost his whole family too and even at his very worse he treated me better than Lilly at her very best.
It wasn't just an insult that made Lilly kill Carley, it was everything Lilly went through that made her kill Carley. She reached her tipping point and, like I said, lashed out blindly without thought. Her face after she shot Carley just screamed "wait... What did I just do." Maybe if Kenny treated her better following what happened (yes, apparently Kenny continued to treat her like a dick after what happened. Lee even has the option to bring it up), if she was given time to grieve and get over what happened, then she might not have tipped over the edge.
Are you seriously going to say Kenny didn't want Ben dead when he pushed Lee into dropping Ben and later says "Lee should have left you in Crawford" in episode five.
"I was trying to protect all of us. She couldn't be trusted." Yeah, that certainly sounds apologetic. Maybe if she said "sorry" or "it was a mistake" or something i would believe that. Actions speak louder than words(and facial expressions). With Doug i can believe that she was sorry for it since she actually says it was a mistake, but her sadness about Carley was more likely to save face so she could stay with the group.
Why would Kenny waste time trying to convince someone else to kill Ben if he had the time and the means to do it himself? He's not the type of person who would care what other people think, so there is no reason to not kill him by his own hands if he truly wanted him dead. He's shown in the past that he will take matters into his own hands if he has to, not hope that somebody else will get rid of his problems.
She doesn't regret killing Carley, the first thing she says afterwards is "She couldn't be trusted! I swear!" Her face says "What did I just do to myself!" She never says she's sorry and she never asks for forgiveness because in her eyes she didn't do anything all that wrong. Her only regret was by killing Carley it turned the group against her. If they had for some bizarre reason agreed with what she did she could care less.
I'm sorry, but what in the hell makes you think that? The game certainly makes it seem that she feels regret for what she did, with her facial structure and what Katjaa says:
"She's probably in shock, she did a monstrous thing."
Yeah yeah, that's only what Katjaa thinks. What does she know, right? No, that's what the game says and I take it with way more face value then what your hatred induced interpretation, no offence. It would have been great if she apologized for what she did, but I'm not her to argue that Lilly is a saint or what have you. She's far from it, but she isn't soulless. Despite what this forums believes, she's not a monster, she's still human.
I know Lilly and Carley didn't necessarily get along, probably because they were on different ends of the spectrum (Carley being more so humane and Lilly being more so a survivalist), but that hatred only served to make her accuse her easier while in her unstable / paranoid state. If she was more stable I believe she would have approached the situation much more rationally and much less... crazy. Although that's just my opinion.
So yeah, I'll take that asshole Kenny over Lilly any day of the week. He lost his whole family too and even at his very worse he treated me better than Lilly at her very best.
I know I've said this before in the past but what Kenny did to me in episode four is much, much worse than anything Lilly has done to me. I sided with Kenny almost entirely through my playthrough, but he claims I hadn't. That I was never there for him. Why? Because I refused to kill Larry. The result of which? He'd leave Clementine in the hands of, what could easily be, a rapist. That is just so wrong on so many levels, it's only made worse due to the continued support I consistently gave him through out every episode.
Let'a compare Lilly and Kenny's worst actions towards Lee, shall we?
Lilly takes an RV that apparently had very little life left in it
Kenny leaves Clementine in the hands of what could easily be a rapist
I understand that you could convince him to come anyways, but that doesn't justify it at all. The fact that you have to convince him is just... ugh. You could say "I need you" and he'll still be like fuck that. How would Lilly react given the situation? Who knows, the scenario never happened so I can't comment on it with any authority. All I know is that Kenny back stabbed me and Clementine while turning a blind eye for everything I've done for him.
This all rather opinionated though. I respect your opinion and I kindly ask you respect mine and other Lilly supporters and it would be in everyone's best interest to just leave this thread. This is a Lilly appreciation thread not a "let's talk about why you hate Lilly" thread.
I don't necessarily want to get into a debate regarding a character I don't like but I'll say this:
I'm sorry, but what in the hell makes you think that? The game certainly makes it seem that she feels regret for what she did, with her facial structure and what Katjaa says:
"She's probably in shock, she did a monstrous thing."
Yeah yeah, that's only what Katjaa thinks. What does she know, right? No, that's what the game says and I take it with way more face value then what your hatred induced interpretation, no offence. It would have been great if she apologized for what she did, but I'm not her to argue that Lilly is a saint or what have you. She's far from it, but she isn't soulless. Despite what this forums believes, she's not a monster, she's still human.
I know Lilly and Carley didn't necessarily get along, probably because they were on different ends of the spectrum (Carley being more so humane and Lilly being more so a survivalist), but that hatred only served to make her accuse her easier while in her unstable / paranoid state. If she was more stable I believe she would have approached the situation much more rationally and much less... crazy. Although that's just my opinion.
I know I've said this before in the past but what Kenny did to me in episode four is much, much worse than anything Lilly has done to me. I sided with Kenny almost entirely through my playthrough, but he claims I hadn't. That I was never there for him. Why? Because I refused to kill Larry. The result of which? He'd leave Clementine in the hands of, what could easily be, a rapist. That is just so wrong on so many levels, it's only made worse due to the continued support I consistently gave him through out every episode.
Let'a compare Lilly and Kenny's worst actions towards Lee, shall we?
Lilly takes an RV that apparently had very little life left in it
Kenny leaves Clementine in the hands of what could easily be a rapist
I understand that you could convince him to come anyways, but that doesn't justify it at all. The fact that you have to convince him is just... ugh. You could say "I need you" and he'll still be like fuck that. How would Lilly react given the situation? Who knows, the scenario never happened so I can't comment on it with any authority. All I know is that Kenny back stabbed me and Clementine while turning a blind eye for everything I've done for him.
This all rather opinionated though. I respect your opinion and I kindly ask you respect mine and other Lilly supporters and it would be in everyone's best interest to just leave this thread. This is a Lilly appreciation thread not a "let's talk about why you hate Lilly" thread.
A rapist? Vernon? Where did you get that?
Besides i consider shooting my closest friend in the head to be a negative action towards me.
It's certainly not an appreciation thread anymore, but it more a discussion on her character than a "hate thread" she has a fair few defenders, the debate was always going to happen, there are a few angles to approach her character from and that's why she was such a good one (character not person...)
I don't necessarily want to get into a debate regarding a character.
Then don't if that's how you feel, but I don't mind a debate and I don't care this is a Lilly appreciation thread. I'm not doing this just to make trouble, but if you want to insist Lilly is just some sort of misunderstood person then don't be surprised if someone has a differing opinion.
If you want to leave this at agreeing to disagree that's fine too, but as long you're pleading your case...
I'm sorry, but what in the hell makes you think that? The game certainly makes it seem that she feels regret for what she did, with her facial structure and what Katjaa says:
"She's probably in shock, she did a monstrous thing."
Katjaa is also in favor of leaving Lilly on the side of the road. And Lilly possibly being in shock doesn't mean she's sorry for murdering Carley. It sounds a lot more like she was sorry for herself. No matter what you did she'll out Lee as a murderer to protect herself and insists she has NOTHING left, suggesting to me no one in the group, even Lee if he's been a saint to her, means anything to her.
Yeah yeah, that's only what Katjaa thinks. What does she know, right? No, that's what the game says and I take it with way more face value then what your hatred induced interpretation, no offence. It would have been great if she apologized for what she did, but I'm not her to argue that Lilly is a saint or what have you. She's far from it, but she isn't soulless. Despite what this forums believes, she's not a monster, she's still human.
Human? The fucking St. Johns are human, the bandits are human, the stranger is a human. Humans are capable of doing some pretty heinous shit, it's probably the Walking Dead core theme. And I've never said Lilly was a soulless demon, I've said she's a selfish asshole who eventually became an amoral sociopath.
I know Lilly and Carley didn't necessarily get along, probably because they were on different ends of the spectrum (Carley being more so humane and Lilly being more so a survivalist), but that hatred only served to make her accuse her easier while in her unstable / paranoid state. If she was more stable I believe she would have approached the situation much more rationally and much less... crazy. Although that's just my opinion.
Even before Larry died she wasn't exactly a bastion of reasonable behavior. She repeatedly insists on leaving people, from Lee and Kenny's families in Macon (who were only saved because Carley of Glenn) to Ben and his company to telling Mark he's only there because he had food at one point. She refuses to discuss anything people disagree with her about and she contradicts herself. She won't consider leaving the hotel but complains about there being no food, yet she has no idea of where to get food. What the fuck? How much reason would this woman really see if Larry hadn't died? If he hadn't died he'd be there probably insisting with Lilly to throw Carley or Ben out on the road after the bandit attack. Don't forget Larry tried to kill Lee after Lee saved his life!
And how is it Lilly's instability gives her a pass on so much of her behavior but Kenny's doesn't? You don't think Kenny was losing his shit after his son slowly died and his wife shot herself? The events of episodes 3-5 take place over a period of what, three or four days? During which Kenny sees a kid who died of malnutrition as a zombie. How stable did you really think he was?
Not to mention this is on top of the fact that nearly fucking everyone has seen horrible shit at this point. Clem was stuck alone in a tree house for days avoiding her reanimated babysitter and has no idea what happened to her parents in the months that follow. Carley watched her news editor get eaten right in front of her and if you fix the radio she gets the pleasure of hearing most of friends probably die. Ben has no idea what happened to his family and spends months watching all of his classmates get picked off one by one. Lee finds out his parents are dead and has to finish off his zombified brother just to get keys to save Larry who turns around and tries to murder him for the favor!
I'm sorry, I don't buy her being unstable as a justification for how she acts, especially considering she refuses to talk to anyone about it and was horribly unreasonable and often heartless BEFORE her instability. And how much time did she need to grieve? Kenny says in episode three the bandits had the group's number for WEEKS! Even assuming the writer's just messed up the time passage, it seems like at very least several days pass between episode two and three. What happens to her, horrible as it is, doesn't seem any more horrible then what most of the group has seen.
I know I've said this before in the past but what Kenny did to me in episode four is much, much worse than anything Lilly has done to me.
Yes I know, you never stop bringing it up. I too was disgusted that he wouldn't willingly come with me to find Clementine because I didn't help him kill Larry. But you seem so focused on this one shitty act you're overlooking all the nasty shit Lilly really did.
Let'a compare Lilly and Kenny's worst actions towards Lee, shall we?
Mind if I make a more complete list? Kenny's Worst at his Worst
Panics and doesn't try to save Shawn. Never stops blaming himself for it.
Smashes Larry head in out of fear he may reanimate.
Chickenshits out of helping Lee fight Danny St. John.
Makes no effort to help Lee at the pharmacy in episode three.
Angered by his son's fate, he fights Lee.
Suggests leaving Omid behind because he's hurt.
Suggests not taking Molly on boat after she saved his life and is working to fix said boat.
Wants to beat the shit out of Ben after he admitted he was responsible for his family's fate, then goads Lee on to let Ben die.
Won't come with you to help find Clementine when she goes missing.
Lilly's Worst at her Best
Yells at Carley and Glenn for not letting five people, two of which are children, get eaten fifteen feet outside the drugstore door.
Does nothing to stop out of control father to try and kill ten year old boy without bothering to see if he's really bitten or not.
Runs off during drugstore attack while other able bodied adults try to protect it long enough to get everyone else out.
Screams at Mark, Lee, and Kenny for not letting a teenager and his teacher/classmate get eaten.
Leaves inept teenager that she doesn't trust on watch while she knows someone is stealing supplies.
Screams at people when this is brought to her attention.
Sends Lee out as live bait while she falls back to a safer distance with a rifle.
Murders either innocent woman she's known for months in paranoid fit of rage or accidentally shoots an innocent man in the back of the head while trying to surprise execute possible guilty party, all despite a complete lack of hard evidence and push back from entire group except maybe Lee.
When accused of being a murderer, outs Lee as a murderer, even if he's been both Lilly's greatest ally and just prevented Kenny from abandoning her.
Steals, as far as she knew, the group's only means of transportation, stranding five people, two of which are young children, in the middle of nowhere, and for good measure, lies to Lee about taking him and Clem with her.
And that's Lilly's BEST. If you're less than supportive she also watches Andy nearly kills Lee while Clementine looks on in horror, accuses you of stealing supplies, and talks about how she thought about killing Lee when his back is turned.
I understand that you could convince him to come anyways, but that doesn't justify it at all. The fact that you have to convince him is just... ugh. You could say "I need you" and he'll still be like fuck that. How would Lilly react given the situation? Who knows, the scenario never happened so I can't comment on it with any authority. All I know is that Kenny back stabbed me and Clementine while turning a blind eye for everything I've done for him.
I'm sorry, what's that? About Lilly not being in that situation that Kenny so horribly pissed you off with? Why wasn't she there? Oh, that's right, because there's no way to convince her to not abandon Lee and Clementine. I agree that having to guilt trip Kenny to come with you if you hadn't done most everything he wanted is extremely shitty of him, but at least there is some way to get him to come!
The only way to prevent Lilly from ditching everyone is to ditch her first. Nothing you say or do will convince her otherwise, and if you agree to come with her, she leaves you anyways the second you go to get Clementine! You really think this woman would have gone with Lee to rescue Clementine?
The same person who wanted to leave them both and three others outside the drugstore? Who constantly stayed behind while Lee, Kenny, Mark, Carley, Glenn and most everyone else constantly risked their lives to get supplies and other things people needed? The same person who flipped out and killed someone after a "traitor" stole supplies? How'd you think she'd react if she found out Clementine was secretly feeding a stalker over the radio information about the group?
I don't know when the R.V. stealing scene went down for you, but for me it was the very first thing that happened on my first playthrough. The second I got out at the train stop I went right back in the R.V. because I wanted to talk to Lilly, see if there was anything I could do. She refuses to talk, and the second I go up front and off-handily take a pencil, she frees herself, shoves Lee's ass out of the R.V. after I said she could leave sans the R.V. and takes the only shelter or transportation that I knew the group had.
And for what? Why? It wasn't fear of death, Lee prevented just that by not leaving her on the side of the road. It's because the group will no longer humor her as leader and may expect her to put herself at risk, and she wouldn't have any of that. She ditches everyone, just to save herself, even if you've never once given her a reason to distrust you. As much as Kenny pisses me off nothing was as shameful as that. Hell, provided you hadn't deliberately gone out of your way to be an asshole to Kenny he'll tell you he'll be waiting for you to get back with Clem even when he doesn't come with you to get her. That's sadly more than Lilly was going to do for Lee no matter what he did for her.
And again, nothing you do changes this about Lilly, unlike Kenny, who if you honor is stupid requests, he refuses to let you go alone! From a purely gameplay standpoint Lilly is irredeemable. There is no option to make her see reason there is no way to talk her out of abandoning everyone. Those are her best case scenarios!
And this has nothing to do with her originally being a character in the comics. Telltale could have contrived things anyway they liked, they could have made it where Kenny leaves Lilly at the hotel, or Lee could reason with Lilly and Kenny leaves Lilly with the R.V. when the train is up and working. They could have put that option in there to show you Lilly really wasn't a bad person at heart, and they didn't, and I think that was deliberate. They wanted to lead people on to make them think they could help Lilly and in the end the you really can't. Lilly doesn't want anyone's help, she doesn't want anyone period really, and that's who she is.
And that makes for some exceptional story telling, but I still hate her ass.
This all rather opinionated though. I respect your opinion and I kindly ask you respect mine and other Lilly supporters and it would be in everyone's best interest to just leave this thread. This is a Lilly appreciation thread not a "let's talk about why you hate Lilly" thread.
I'm not the first nor will I be the last person to debate's Lilly's character on this thread and I'm not posting here to deliberately spite people who like Lilly. But if you're going to say things like "I could never understand this board and their intense hatred towards Lilly...", you should expect a response.
I do have a question for you though. How many times have you played the Walking Dead Game from start to finish and how often do you mix up your choices? Because despite what you may think, I didn't immediately hate Lilly on my first playthrough and rush here to celebrate it. Even after what she had done I pitied Lilly, I felt sorry for her. I'd say I used to feel the way you seem to now.
But every time I replayed the game I noticed more and more things about Lilly I didn't catch or didn't pay attention to on my first playthrough. And after a while I resented her instead of pitying her, and somewhere during repeat playthroughs that resentment turned to hatred. Her character has a lot of depth, this myriad of opinions on Lilly is a testament how well written she was.
But my discovery wasn't there was this well meaning person under Lilly's behavior, it was a spiteful coward hiding the exterior of a self-proclaimed survivalist. A scared girl pretending to be a tough bitch just like Carley said. And her only answer to being afraid was to hurt others. That's just my opinion though.
You're right on the first part, though it's easy to miss because she only says it if you side with her, all over dialogue choices she never says such a thing.
The second part, however is an outright lie. Lilly's second line in the episode and first to Lee is chewing him out for bringing new people to the inn. There aren't many different ways that can be interpreted.
Edit: apologies for making a double post, i should've edited my original...
Telling him that they shouldn't be bringing new people to the inn in the first place /= saying they should immediately be kicked out - the very fact she says otherwise demonstrates as much.
And even then, not being welcoming to strangers is pretty damn prudent.
I've said it before, but scoreboard: under Lilly's leadership the group survived basically intact for three months; following Kenny's plan gets damn near the entire group killed within a week. Kenny could be the kindest, warmest soul on the planet and it wouldn't matter - following his lead demonstrably gets you killed.
Lily's Leadership is questioned from the moment you meet her. First by Carly/Glen over saving Duck. In the same scene Larry tells her shut up. Follow by Lee saying she cannot control her people. Then Kenny calling her a crazy lady. And this is what you call leadership?Cannot lead if no ones following. Lily's leadership what leadership? Ken hands out orders in the drug store giving everyone jobs. Lee gets the pills. Lee/Carly/Doug/Clem hold down the store so everyone can get out. While Clem is helping save everyone in the store where is Lily's leadship then. She is nowhere to be found Ken stopped Larry from killing Lee. Orginally it is Kens idea to stay at the motor inn. What does Lily do on the farm? Nothing no leadership there either. Kenny's idea to take the food from the car. Kenny states they have to leave because of bandits coming over the wall. Which they do. Ken's RV saves the day. After all that she kills Carly/Doug in cold blood. Snitches on you to justify her actions. Then abandons everyone. Saying the statement Lily's leadership kept them alive is a JOKE.
I've covered this before too; leadership isn't some magical statistic where if it's high enough people magically fall in line. If somebody's dead set on doing their own thing, they're going to.
If I were to disobey an order from my C.O. when I was in the service, who do you think is held at fault? Me, or my C.O.? Hint, there's a charge for disobeying orders; failure to subjugate people with the power of your mind? Not so much.
And again... Scoreboard. When Kenny's de facto in charge, gets his way about looking for a boat, etc. damn near the entire group ends up dead within about a half a week with nothing to show for it. And these weren't unforseen circumstances either, pretty much every problem the group ran into? I saw them coming prior to Episode 3 being released.
And again... Scoreboard. When Kenny's de facto in charge, gets his way about looking for a boat, etc. damn near the entire group ends up dead within about a half a week with nothing to show for it. And these weren't unforseen circumstances either, pretty much every problem the group ran into? I saw them coming prior to Episode 3 being released.
Duck(chained with Katjaa)'s death sentence occurs during Lilly's leadership, and Larry, Mark, Carley AND Doug's death occurs during her leadership as well. She is effectively still the leader until after she fires the pistol on the roadside, since she demands that everyone get out of the RV and also states that no one will be getting back on until the situation is resolved.
Lilly: 5 deaths(Carley, Doug, Duck, Larry, Mark)
Kenny: 5 deaths(Himself, Ben, Lee, Chuck, Brie)
Kenny still has a(slim) chance at being alive, so that's up for debate. Katjaa's difficult to fit to either side, since although she died during Kenny's rule, her death occurred 100% directly because of an event during Lilly's rule. Brie followed Vernon's rule, not Kenny's so she could also drop the count.
Kenny also becomes less of a leader as time goes on, and by Crawford he is effectively no longer the leader at all. Instead, everyone is working together, or arguably Lee is the leader. Lilly's position never changes up to her departure.
I've covered this before too; leadership isn't some magical statistic where if it's high enough people magically fall in line. If somebody's dead set on doing their own thing, they're going to.
If I were to disobey an order from my C.O. when I was in the service, who do you think is held at fault? Me, or my C.O.? Hint, there's a charge for disobeying orders; failure to subjugate people with the power of your mind? Not so much.
And again... Scoreboard. When Kenny's de facto in charge, gets his way about looking for a boat, etc. damn near the entire group ends up dead within about a half a week with nothing to show for it. And these weren't unforseen circumstances either, pretty much every problem the group ran into? I saw them coming prior to Episode 3 being released.
This is not the service. Their civies. Lily is not a C.O. And the group is not one person Lee/Ken/Carly/Doug/Kat/ and even Larry disagree on how she TRIES to run things. In three months she lead them into a bandit attack.Loss of food weapons and shelter. Murder of Doug or Carly. Then abandons children in the street with nothing. The group has to get on the train because of Lily stealing the RV. Kenny worked with what Lily left which is nothing. A good leader stays through the good and bad. Kenny stayed to the end saving members lives at the possibility of his own demise. Were Lily does the opposite. In three months Lily put the group on the fast track to death.
Telling him that they shouldn't be bringing new people to the inn in the first place /= saying they should immediately be kicked out - the very fact she says otherwise demonstrates as much.
And even then, not being welcoming to strangers is pretty damn prudent.
I've said it before, but scoreboard: under Lilly's leadership the group survived basically intact for three months; following Kenny's plan gets damn near the entire group killed within a week. Kenny could be the kindest, warmest soul on the planet and it wouldn't matter - following his lead demonstrably gets you killed.
I'd say Lilly would have gotten them killed sooner. Who knows who else she would have killed? And Kenny wasn't even leader, it was basically lee. Kenny gave orders, but lee was usually the one who made all the tough decisions. That and the fact that even if you call Kenny leader, the only reason they aren't on a boat cruising right now is because they stole from the station wagon. However, if they hadnt stolen from the station wagon, like Lilly AT FIRST didnt want, they most likely would have all died. That and the fact that Lilly left the group with few supplies, ammo and the sort, and no free-moving vehicle for quick travel, they really didnt have much to work on. All the food, meds, and weapons were left at the motel during the raid. What REALLY could Kenny do? Scavenge for supplies? They had a horde coming after them! Flee Savannah? How, on foot, with no ammunition, or supplies at all? Where the hell would they go? It was hard enough for them to get around Savannah, not along OUT.
I don't mean to defend Kenny; he was a shitty leader. But Lilly was no better, I'd say worse. If it had been up to her, everyone would be dead at that motel; the place she didnt want to leave. That, or dead from starvation.
Duck(chained with Katjaa)'s death sentence occurs during Lilly's leadership, and Larry, Mark, Carley AND Doug's death occurs during her leadership as well. She is effectively still the leader until after she fires the pistol on the roadside, since she demands that everyone get out of the RV and also states that no one will be getting back on until the situation is resolved.
Lilly: 5 deaths(Carley, Doug, Duck, Larry, Mark)
Kenny: 5 deaths(Himself, Ben, Lee, Chuck, Brie)
Kenny still has a(slim) chance at being alive, so that's up for debate. Katjaa's difficult to fit to either side, since although she died during Kenny's rule, her death occurred 100% directly because of an event during Lilly's rule. Brie followed Vernon's rule, not Kenny's so she could also drop the count.
Kenny also becomes less of a leader as time goes on, and by Crawford he is effectively no longer the leader at all. Instead, everyone is working together, or arguably Lee is the leader. Lilly's position never changes up to her departure.
I'd say Brie's and Ben's deaths were Ben's fault; there was nothing Kenny could do. By the time he realized he was a threat, Brie was eaten into. Ben would have died whether he was left, dropped, or in the alleyway. That, and Kenny's "death" was chained to his family's deaths, which was under Lilly's leadership.
Duck(chained with Katjaa)'s death sentence occurs during Lilly's leadership, and Larry, Mark, Carley AND Doug's death occurs during her leadership as well. She is effectively still the leader until after she fires the pistol on the roadside, since she demands that everyone get out of the RV and also states that no one will be getting back on until the situation is resolved.
Lilly: 5 deaths(Carley, Doug, Duck, Larry, Mark)
Kenny: 5 deaths(Himself, Ben, Lee, Chuck, Brie)
Kenny still has a(slim) chance at being alive, so that's up for debate. Katjaa's difficult to fit to either side, since although she died during Kenny's rule, her death occurred 100% directly because of an event during Lilly's rule. Brie followed Vernon's rule, not Kenny's so she could also drop the count.
Kenny also becomes less of a leader as time goes on, and by Crawford he is effectively no longer the leader at all. Instead, everyone is working together, or arguably Lee is the leader. Lilly's position never changes up to her departure.
There's actually only one confirmed survivor of following Kenny's boat plan. There's also the fact that Lilly wasn't the de facto leader during the drug store siege; Kenny was. I'm inclined to hold Katjaa responsible for her own death (even though it occurred on Kenny's watch).
The simple fact remains that the group lasted far longer under Lilly's leadership than they did following Kenny's plan.
This is not the service. Their civies. Lily is not a C.O. And the group is not one person Lee/Ken/Carly/Doug/Kat/ and even Larry disagree on how she TRIES to run things. In three months she lead them into a bandit attack.Loss of food weapons and shelter. Murder of Doug or Carly. Then abandons children in the street with nothing. The group has to get on the train because of Lily stealing the RV. Kenny worked with what Lily left which is nothing. A good leader stays through the good and bad. Kenny stayed to the end saving members lives at the possibility of his own demise. Were Lily does the opposite. In three months Lily put the group on the fast track to death.
Actually, the group has to get on the train because it's blocking the road. Kenny decides to use the train (and incidentally, attract the herd which follows them into Savannah) even when the RV's still available.
And it still doesn't deal with the point; Kenny's plan (with all of its glaring problems) gets pretty much the entire group killed within a week. It's that simple. He's quantifiably worse than the alternative.
There's actually only one confirmed survivor of following Kenny's boat plan. There's also the fact that Lilly wasn't the de facto leader during the drug store siege; Kenny was. I'm inclined to hold Katjaa responsible for her own death (even though it occurred on Kenny's watch).
The simple fact remains that the group lasted far longer under Lilly's leadership than they did following Kenny's plan.
Actually, the group has to get on the train because it's blocking the road. Kenny decides to use the train (and incidentally, attract the herd which follows them into Savannah) even when the RV's still available.
And it still doesn't deal with the point; Kenny's plan (with all of its glaring problems) gets pretty much the entire group killed within a week. It's that simple. He's quantifiably worse than the alternative.
It is Kenny's RV that saves EVERYONE from Lily's horrible plan against
the bandits. Lily would not even be alive if not for Kenny's RV plan. Kenny wanted to leave way eariler. Lily's stay right here plan is no good. Cause if it was so good of an idea the group would still be there. Alive. Lily's grand idea to stay is an EPIC FAILURE.
It is Kenny's RV that saves EVERYONE from Lily's horrible plan against
the bandits. Lily would not even be alive if not for Kenny's RV plan. Kenny wanted to leave way eariler. Lily's stay right here plan is no good. Cause if it was so good of an idea the group would still be there. Alive. Lily's grand idea to stay is an EPIC FAILURE.
Kenny wanted to look for a boat earlier... and? When he gets his way, damn near the entire group ends up within days as a result. Under Lilly, they survived for over three months. No amount of quibbling changes that fact.
There's no reason to assume it would've gone better if they left earlier either, because the problems the group ran into were fundamental problems with Kenny's plan. There still wouldn't have been any boats to find at the docks, and you'd realistically run into far more walkers as you neared the coast than elsewhere (since coastal regions account for the majority of the population).
The Stranger was a fundamental problem? The fuck? That dude had the group's number since they stole from that car. And yeah, you can't say it would have been easier under Kenny's leadership, but Lilly didn't have to deal with kenny's shit. That and the fact that if Lilly had been leading the whole show, they'd all be dead at the inn. Also, Kenny had no resources BECAUSE of Lilly and her poor leadership. How many guns did they have? Food? Water? NONE, because Lilly had been on watch that fucked them all over. Lilly set the others to fail, it wasn't Kenny's fault that he had NOTHING to work with. Right when Lilly lost leadership was when the group was in it's most dire straints. At the end of the game "You met them on your worst day thus far" with Christa and Omid. That day was caused by Lilly, not Kenny. Kenny had to pull through with Lee's help and keep the group alive, even with his entire family gone, his WHOLE REASON for living and wanting a boat in the first place. Lilly was the one who fucked up, and they all would have died under her leadership anyway. I'd rather be under Kenny or Lee's leadership, and probably theirs over Rick's too. But that is my opinion
There's actually only one confirmed survivor of following Kenny's boat plan. There's also the fact that Lilly wasn't the de facto leader during the drug store siege; Kenny was. I'm inclined to hold Katjaa responsible for her own death (even though it occurred on Kenny's watch).
The simple fact remains that the group lasted far longer under Lilly's leadership than they did following Kenny's plan.
If that is true, then it is Kenny who keeps the group alive for those three months, not Lilly. He is the one who decides the motor inn is where they'll stay and how they'll defend it, and Lilly agrees, then the three months pass. Unless you know for certain who ruled during those three months, it cannot be said that either of them was de facto leader until the beginning of episode 2.
If that is true, then it is Kenny who keeps the group alive for those three months, not Lilly. He is the one who decides the motor inn is where they'll stay and how they'll defend it, and Lilly agrees, then the three months pass. Unless you know for certain who ruled during those three months, it cannot be said that either of them was de facto leader until the beginning of episode 2.
I agree, man of the decisions made were by Kenny's choosing. Lilly wanted the group to go to the Dairy, and if it had not been for Kenny and Lee snooping around, they all would have died in that meat locker, or something even worse... Also, he leads the group while Lilly cares for her father in episode 1, and leads the group while Lilly flees with her father. Lilly was leader when it didn't matter. Kenny usually had to make the tough choices, if not then Lee.
It is Kenny's RV that saves EVERYONE from Lily's horrible plan against
the bandits. Lily would not even be alive if not for Kenny's RV plan. Kenny wanted to leave way eariler. Lily's stay right here plan is no good. Cause if it was so good of an idea the group would still be there. Alive. Lily's grand idea to stay is an EPIC FAILURE.
I have to disagree. That firefight was actually beginning to favor team Lilly. Carley had the left flank covered and Lee had the right. When Kenny did get the RV running I only saw a few walkers left and we could have held.
If we had used the RV to plug the hole in the barricade, retreated back to our rooms and stayed quiet....maybe it would have worked. I still think Lilly's plan was better. It seemed like a good idea to me to stay where there is water and shelter at least for the winter as planned. Lilly did agree that eventually we would have to leave the motel.
If that is true, then it is Kenny who keeps the group alive for those three months, not Lilly. He is the one who decides the motor inn is where they'll stay and how they'll defend it, and Lilly agrees, then the three months pass. Unless you know for certain who ruled during those three months, it cannot be said that either of them was de facto leader until the beginning of episode 2.
Patently dishonest; the siege didn't last three months. And we do know who was in charge during those three months because it's clearly stated - nobody else stepped up except Lilly, nobody disputes that fact; she handed out the rations, trained the group in the use of their weapons, etc. hell, even the St. Johns pick up on it if you try to tell them anybody else is the leader.
So again... Scoreboard: Under Lilly, the group survived three months, following Kenny's plan, they pretty much all end up dead within about three days. That's really the only criteria that matters.
The Stranger was a fundamental problem? The fuck? That dude had the group's number since they stole from that car. And yeah, you can't say it would have been easier under Kenny's leadership, but Lilly didn't have to deal with kenny's shit. That and the fact that if Lilly had been leading the whole show, they'd all be dead at the inn. Also, Kenny had no resources BECAUSE of Lilly and her poor leadership. How many guns did they have? Food? Water? NONE, because Lilly had been on watch that fucked them all over. Lilly set the others to fail, it wasn't Kenny's fault that he had NOTHING to work with. Right when Lilly lost leadership was when the group was in it's most dire straints. At the end of the game "You met them on your worst day thus far" with Christa and Omid. That day was caused by Lilly, not Kenny. Kenny had to pull through with Lee's help and keep the group alive, even with his entire family gone, his WHOLE REASON for living and wanting a boat in the first place. Lilly was the one who fucked up, and they all would have died under her leadership anyway. I'd rather be under Kenny or Lee's leadership, and probably theirs over Rick's too. But that is my opinion
The Stranger didn't kill anybody; the walkers did. Which incidentally is a fundamental problem with the boat plan; the coast is going to have the highest population of undead people. It wasn't that hard to figure out, since the coast had the highest population density of previously living people.
Common sense, coastal regions in the U.S. account for about 20% of the landmass, but over half the total population of the country.
Simply put, going to the coast as a way to avoid walkers was pants on head stupid, and I said as much in the "Fuck Kenny" thread last Summer for the same reason (among others). The group didn't die from dehydration, or starvation, or infection. Lack of supplies was irrelevant, Kenny's plan got them killed well before then. They died because Kenny stupidly thought going to a formerly densely populated coastal region to avoid dead people was a good idea.
And if you can claim Kenny isn't responsible for what Ben did while following his plan (getting Brie and/or himself killed); there's no reason that doesn't apply to Duck/Katjaa.
Fact remains, Kenny's quantifiably far worse; between the two the average life expectancy for a group member was several times longer under Lilly's leadership than Kenny's.
Patently dishonest; the siege didn't last three months. And we do know who was in charge during those three months because it's clearly stated - nobody else stepped up except Lilly, nobody disputes that fact; she handed out the rations, trained the group in the use of their weapons, etc. hell, even the St. Johns pick up on it if you try to tell them anybody else is the leader.
So again... Scoreboard: Under Lilly, the group survived three months, following Kenny's plan, they pretty much all end up dead within about three days. That's really the only criteria that matters.
The Stranger didn't kill anybody; the walkers did. Which incidentally is a fundamental problem with the boat plan; the coast is going to have the highest population of undead people. It wasn't that hard to figure out, since the coast had the highest population density of previously living people.
Common sense, coastal regions in the U.S. account for about 20% of the landmass, but over half the total population of the country.
Simply put, going to the coast as a way to avoid walkers was pants on head stupid, and I said as much in the "Fuck Kenny" thread last Summer for the same reason (among others). The group didn't die from dehydration, or starvation, or infection. Lack of supplies was irrelevant, Kenny's plan got them killed well before then. They died because Kenny stupidly thought going to a formerly densely populated coastal region to avoid dead people was a good idea.
And if you can claim Kenny isn't responsible for what Ben did while following his plan (getting Brie and/or himself killed); there's no reason that doesn't apply to Duck/Katjaa.
Fact remains, Kenny's quantifiably far worse; between the two the average life expectancy for a group member was several times longer under Lilly's leadership than Kenny's.
Because Lilly happened to get damn lucky? And no, under Lilly's leadership they lost Carley and Doug, Larry, and Mark. Those four were some of the strongest of the group, and without them, the entire group collapsed. With Lilly's reign, the group had shelter, decent amount of supplies, good stock of weapons, and they still got fucked over.
Kenny had little to work off of, a group barely holding on, trusts were broken, Kenny was a mental and emotional mess, Ben was absolutely useless due to his guilt, and Katjaa and Duck were just done; Duck was bitten and there was no way to stop Katjaa from killing herself, if you think of one let me know, but she had a gin in her hands, nobody saw it coming(as she was usually full of hope and thought logically), and just a kind person, so those of the group probably assumed she'd speak about it if she felt she couldn't go on(that's how I felt). Upon leaving the motor inn, which I still blame Lilly who had a kid on watch and even though she didn't seem to be doing much outside of keeping everyone on schedule, and I cannot believe someone like BEN could sneak up on her and steal supplies from under her nose, and after she realized it didn't hide them or lock them up somewhere, they had little to no food and water, extremely limited on weaponry, and low on other essential supplies like medications. The situation with Ben was her problem, and how she handled it was wrong(but my opinion).
The group was a wreak by that point, and with three new members added to a loss of four in one day? With no way of keeping them needless? Not even knowing if they could be trusted? AND a traitor? No food, no water, no meds, barely anything as firearms were concerned, no free-moving vehicles, and only able to go where the tracks could lead them. They couldn't go around the train, and so had to abandon the RV, which was only going to get them so far anyway. So just what the hell could they do? The train didn't exactly have a 'reverse' xD. And the boat idea wouldn't have been too bad if they had the supplies. No, it wasn't GREAT, but hell, it was better than waiting to die in a motor inn where they were stuck between bandits and a hard place.
I do not count Brie as Kenny's fault for three reasons.
1.) Ben took out the hatchet; ya know, the liability brought in during Lilly's leadership? What happened to that training schedule? Ben seemed pretty useless with guns, melees, pretty much anything he put his hands on. That and the fact that if Lilly had actually been watching out as a leader should, then maybe Ben's fuckup could have turned into something useful. She didn't have to threaten the damn kid. Had she interrogated calmly(for it was obvious he was the culprit), they could have figured everything out and snuck out(or at least prepared for attacks, cuz' I'm sure Lilly wouldn't want to leave her little cubby hole).
2.) Brie wasn't exactly defenseless, and she let her guard down for the walkers to break through, because she was more concerned of voting than the dead behind the door she was holding shut.
3.)Brie wasn't part of Kenny's/Lee's group, but Vernon's. We never counted Andy/Danny/Brenda on Lilly's list, or Irene(defenseless girl you could shoot), or Jolene(girl who stole Clem's hat), or the bandits, so why count Brie? Why not count Molly if you shoot her on accident? Because they didn't matter. They weren't "members" of the group. And if you count Molly, she could be alive.
I also don't count as that, because you could also blame yourself/Lee and Christa for the deaths, for they were leaders more than Kenny in episode 4 and 5. Only if you didn't react or said the wrong things did Christa or Kenny take over(except for certain occasions like the attic).
I just feel Lilly as more responsible, yes I'd give Kenny a share of the blame, but Lilly gave Kenny a barely lit torch that he had to keep going, and it isn't out; people did survive, maybe even him. Lee even. Vernon. Molly. Who really knows(besides Telltale)? I don't mean to point fingers, but Lilly didn't give Kenny and the others much to work on, so I find your points kind of biased.
An example: How much trouble we are in today that our previous presidents caused(if live in U.S.) that recent presidents have tried to correct? It isn't easy, and so far, only little progress has been made, and every time a breakthrough is seen, it goes downhill. So Kenny had little chance of preserving the group that was so broken. The group only survived because with Lilly(until it all got fucked up), they had walls to protect them and shelter.
So yeah, they survived with Lilly longer, but they had Kenny there too, who made quite a few of the decisions. And I'd rather have Lee or Kenny as a leader than Lilly, although Kenny wasn't much better with his sorrow and grief.
Patently dishonest; the siege didn't last three months. And we do know who was in charge during those three months because it's clearly stated - nobody else stepped up except Lilly, nobody disputes that fact; she handed out the rations, trained the group in the use of their weapons, etc. hell, even the St. Johns pick up on it if you try to tell them anybody else is the leader.
So again... Scoreboard: Under Lilly, the group survived three months, following Kenny's plan, they pretty much all end up dead within about three days. That's really the only criteria that matters.
Again, you do not know who was the leader for the three months. After the siege is over Lilly showed no signs of taking back the reigns at the motor inn at the end of episode 3. For all we know she could have started the training schedules and rations two days before the start of episode 2. She's in charge of the weapons training and rations, that doesn't automatically make her leader of every aspect of the group. Hell, Lee has more power than her when he makes the decision to go to the St. Johns farm, which Lilly obviously disagrees with initially.
Even with her leading for three months, the group's deaths were evenly split between Kenny and Lilly(and breaking them down individually result in more deaths for Lilly), not piled onto Kenny alone, so no one comes out on top. Your scoreboard is rigged.
Again, you do not know who was the leader for the three months. After the siege is over Lilly showed no signs of taking back the reigns at the motor inn at the end of episode 3. For all we know she could have started the training schedules and rations two days before the start of episode 2. She's in charge of the weapons training and rations, that doesn't automatically make her leader of every aspect of the group. Hell, Lee has more power than her when he makes the decision to go to the St. Johns farm, which Lilly obviously disagrees with initially.
Even with her leading for three months, the group's deaths were evenly split between Kenny and Lilly(and breaking them down individually result in more deaths for Lilly), not piled onto Kenny alone, so no one comes out on top. Your scoreboard is rigged.
I agree bout the scoreboard being rigged. One thing though, Lilly at first wanted to go. Kenny didnt. Once they got there, Lilly didnt like it because somebody got hurt, as if that doesn't happen everywhere. Kenny then wanted to stay.
I agree bout the scoreboard being rigged. One thing though, Lilly at first wanted to go. Kenny didnt. Once they got there, Lilly didnt like it because somebody got hurt, as if that doesn't happen everywhere. Kenny then wanted to stay.
Well, that shoots me down. At least the second part still holds some form of truth.
Because Lilly happened to get damn lucky? And no, under Lilly's leadership they lost Carley and Doug, Larry, and Mark. Those four were some of the strongest of the group, and without them, the entire group collapsed. With Lilly's reign, the group had shelter, decent amount of supplies, good stock of weapons, and they still got fucked over. *snipped for brevity*
And following Kenny's plan, there's only one confirmed survivor (Clementine). And the idea that Katjaa's suicide couldn't be forseen is well, silly... "I love our son more than life itself" ring a bell?
Lack of supplies was a non-issue following Kenny's plan. It didn't matter; if the group died of dehydration or starvation? Yeah, there might be a case to be made. Instead, they all died because Kenny lead them to a densely populated coastal region.
Again, you do not know who was the leader for the three months. After the siege is over Lilly showed no signs of taking back the reigns at the motor inn at the end of episode 3. For all we know she could have started the training schedules and rations two days before the start of episode 2. She's in charge of the weapons training and rations, that doesn't automatically make her leader of every aspect of the group. Hell, Lee has more power than her when he makes the decision to go to the St. Johns farm, which Lilly obviously disagrees with initially.
Even with her leading for three months, the group's deaths were evenly split between Kenny and Lilly(and breaking them down individually result in more deaths for Lilly), not piled onto Kenny alone, so no one comes out on top. Your scoreboard is rigged.
Again, false; we know she was rationing the supplies Mark brought and allowed him to stay on that basis (and he was with the group for those three months, so...) before the food shortage. Plus, common sense. You can't train an average person to use a firearm with any real proficiency without it taking atleast weeks, nevermind all the associated tasks such as how to maintain it, clean it, etc.
And, as noted, Lilly didn't disagree with going to the farm. She was opposed to staying once Mark was shot (which, incidentally, wasn't the wrong call).
It's not my fault Lilly's quantifiably better than Kenny; because even with an even split? A group's member's average life expectancy is still far longer under Lilly than Kenny.
Again, you do not know who was the leader for the three months. After the siege is over Lilly showed no signs of taking back the reigns at the motor inn at the end of episode 3. For all we know she could have started the training schedules and rations two days before the start of episode 2. She's in charge of the weapons training and rations, that doesn't automatically make her leader of every aspect of the group. Hell, Lee has more power than her when he makes the decision to go to the St. Johns farm, which Lilly obviously disagrees with initially.
Even with her leading for three months, the group's deaths were evenly split between Kenny and Lilly(and breaking them down individually result in more deaths for Lilly), not piled onto Kenny alone, so no one comes out on top. Your scoreboard is rigged.
Maybe that's what happened in your game. In my game, I opted not to go to the dairy. Lilly, the more than obvious leader of the group, called for a vote by the group to go or not to go to the dairy.
Kenny was the first to vote and he voted to go to the dairy. When it came time for Lee to vote he asked Clem what she wanted to do. She said she was very hungry. Lee then said it looks like we're going to the dairy.
Lilly never voted but it seemed pretty clear that the majority opted to go to the dairy.
Maybe that's what happened in your game. In my game, I opted not to go to the dairy. Lilly, the more than obvious leader of the group, called for a vote by the group to go or not to go to the dairy.
Kenny was the first to vote and he voted to go to the dairy. When it came time for Lee to vote he asked Clem what she wanted to do. She said she was very hungry. Lee then said it looks like we're going to the dairy.
Lilly never voted but it seemed pretty clear that the majority opted to go to the dairy.
She voted, but indirectly. She wanted to go to the dairy, that's why as soon as the men show up, Lilly said "Lee go check the place out" blah blah blah I forget it all. Then after he says that you can speak your mind about the dairy. She was automatically getting people to head out without their opinion. So yes, SHE was the first one to vote, if you could kinda read between the lines. I'm sure Larry wanting to go would make her go anyway.
And following Kenny's plan, there's only one confirmed survivor (Clementine). And the idea that Katjaa's suicide couldn't be forseen is well, silly... "I love our son more than life itself" ring a bell?
Lack of supplies was a non-issue following Kenny's plan. It didn't matter; if the group died of dehydration or starvation? Yeah, there might be a case to be made. Instead, they all died because Kenny lead them to a densely populated coastal region.
Again, false; we know she was rationing the supplies Mark brought and allowed him to stay on that basis (and he was with the group for those three months, so...) before the food shortage. Plus, common sense. You can't train an average person to use a firearm with any real proficiency without it taking atleast weeks, nevermind all the associated tasks such as how to maintain it, clean it, etc.
And, as noted, Lilly didn't disagree with going to the farm. She was opposed to staying once Mark was shot (which, incidentally, wasn't the wrong call).
It's not my fault Lilly's quantifiably better than Kenny; because even with an even split? A group's member's average life expectancy is still far longer under Lilly than Kenny.
Yet you claim the reason they failed was due to that. But in reality it was simply because Lilly left them with the supplies they needed. They had lost their rifles, much of their ammunition, and they were low on ammo for their pistols. No good vehicle left for them(Lilly steals the RV that was going to die out anyway, and a train was in front of them.), and no place for shelter. Lilly had a safe place because Glenn found it, Kenny made the plan to fortify it, and that they found Mark with a lot of supplies. It was LUCK.
Kenny was left with little to nothing, a group that was falling apart by the seems(even Lee), and a train that would attract walkers everywhere. That is what killed them, not the city. They brought thouands of walkers down on them because they had no good vehicle to go on. They couldn't even take the RV since it wouldn't last long, so their choice was the train. All those walkers caught up to a high speed train in what a few hours at most?
The walkers in the city were a fair amount, and they did kill Chuck, Brie, and possibly Ben. However, Chuck's was Molly's fault, Brie was split between Ben and Vernon, and Ben's was entirely avoidable. I'd only blame Kenny for Ben's since he basically tells you to drop him.
Yeah, Lilly's loss of the group was due to "mental instability" because that is what people like to call it. Well, Kenny lost his entire family, his reason for living. You expect him to think clearly? He wanted everything to just go away.
Kenny also saw a lot of things Lilly never did.
Regardless of what Kenny would have done, there would always be more walkers. I think there was a HELL of a lot more on his plate,and he had what 6 group members he barely knew? Chuck, Brie, Vernon, Molly, Christa and Omid? They couldn't trust the St. John's, and they had trouble working together as a group.
I don't mean to defend Kenny so much, because he had a terrible boat plan, and his plan did cause people to die, but if they had Carley/Doug, and Katjaa and Duck, I think the game would have played out much more smoothly. Kenny, IMO, had a better shot and overall was a better leader. Just as you say Lilly is. Well, fine, I don't see it, but it's yours.
I understand that each character has a fan base but how the heck can anyone say that Lilly was a good person?
A good person wouldn't kill a group member for no reason
A good person wouldn't rob and leave her own people for dead
Her being a vindictive bully and acts as the groups dictator was just a foreshadow of her personality.
Kenny may be a douche at times but he's nowhere on Lilly's level, he's Gandhi compared to her.
Yami . I understand your hatred for Kenny and Ben because you think that they ruined Lilly's life but why blame Carley aswell ? She never did anything to Lilly and i think you once said that she deserved to die because she never sided with Lilly . Some players din't side with Lilly so are you saying that their Lees deserved to get bitten and die because they never sided with Lilly ?
You say that she never did anything but i disagree . She saved Lee and everybody before meeting the group in the drugstore , she saves Clem from the walker from the bathroom if you don't save her in time , she goes with Lee to save Glenn , she kills walker David , she shows up to rescue the group from the St Johns and she helps Lee with the bandits and the walkers .
Why do you exactly hate her ? Is it because she always saves Lee and not Lilly ? Is it because she kisses Lee and Lilly doesn't ?
You also said that the group falling apart was her fault and i think you also said that Duck getting bitten was her fault . If so than Lee pretty much is responsible for the destruction of the group because he never saved Mark from getting hit by a arrow and brought everybody to the St Johns .
It seems that you keep making Carley look like a monster just to make Lilly look better and making her to be the most innocent woman on the planet .
You say that Kenny destroyed the group and his family , but than you say that Ben destroyed the group and than you say that Carley destroyed the group and Duck .
Lilly may be a good person , but if you side with her she will be your friend while Doug/Carley will always be your friends and you don't have to side with them to be your friends .
How can you like Lilly? she shoot Carley, right after she kissed Lee and said "Don't call me small" and we know Lee liked Carley. So yeah, i wish we see walker Lilly that will be a bitch like her.
I don't want to see walker Lilly, I want to see living Lilly, so I can fucking kill her slowly and painfully, that bitch is going regret every second she was alive after killing Carley when I find her, and that is the short answer.
Comments
You're right on the first part, though it's easy to miss because she only says it if you side with her, all over dialogue choices she never says such a thing.
The second part, however is an outright lie. Lilly's second line in the episode and first to Lee is chewing him out for bringing new people to the inn. There aren't many different ways that can be interpreted.
Edit: apologies for making a double post, i should've edited my original...
And she tells Mark the only reason he's there was because he had food, and she yelled at Carley and Glenn for not letting five people get eaten outside the drug store, and if you don't ditch her on the side of the road she steals the R.V. and finally leaves fucking everyone behind.
Leaving people to die was practically Lilly's Calling Card.
You really think that they weren't spying on the camp and that they would just let you go? Let their golden chicken escape? Yeah, right...
Remember that even crazy Jolene managed to spy on them for days without even being notice. Now, imagine a large group of bandits with a lot more resources. And also, there is something else that needs to be pointed out. Just because these particular bandits weren't very smart, it doesn't mean that their group does not have smart members or a powerful Governor/Neagan type of leader.
I don't know man. I don't like Lilly but I don't see her as a soulless harpy as so many other see her as...
I'm not saying what Kenny almost certainly would have done would have been right, but lets compare motivations not just the act. Ben's incompetence and cowardice got his wife and son killed. He is also only acts when he can be completely certain it was him. Lilly lashes out at Carley based on what exactly? She called her a bitch (which was completely called for) and then Lilly kills her on no more than a hunch.
Both crimes, but in no sense equal crimes. Had Lilly took a shot at Kenny for example, after what he did to her dad, now then maybe i could understand.
Everyone has family. Should they forgive someone who kills their parent/sibling/child/significant other just because they insulted them? I don't agree with Carley's outburst but there is no excuse for murder unless you have to do it to survive.
Kenny is also an asshole, but if he wanted Ben dead he probably would have used a gun instead of lunging for him. Don't try to say they didn't have any because everyone had guns during episode 3, Kenny still had one at the beginning of episode 4 AND he had a rifle when they first entered Crawford. I don't know where all those went but they have to be somewhere.
He gave Lee the shotgun in the stairwell, coulda used that too, he didn't though - but maybe he just wanted to beat the shit out of Ben? However the difference is - Kenny listened to reason, well on the other hand no one stopped Lilly, Kenny was stopped as he reached for Ben, Lilly wasn't, maybe talking some sense into her would have helped, but we never got the chance. I don't forgive Lilly for what she has done, and she'd better not show up in S2 or she'll regret it. She killed an innocent for speaking up and calling her a bitch, which as it turns out is no understatement.
No, it was the fact that Lilly had an irrational hatred of Carley for petty reasons. I'm sick of this crap about Carley setting Lilly off or her being unstable, she wanted Carley gone no matter what anyone said. Maybe her instability pushed her to outright murder but she hated Carley simply because Carley never respected Lilly's non-existent authority.
And no amount of talking was going to change that. If Doug is in your group she tries to murder Ben after five solid minutes of his non-stop cowering. You really think if Carley kept quiet it would have saved her? What does Lilly being unstable even have to do with her hating Carley? Carley didn't kill her dad, Carley didn't treat her badly. Yet Lilly singles Carley out long before Carley sticks up for herself.
Lilly immediately accuses Carley, not Ben, Carley of stealing. The same woman who gunned down bandits and walkers alike to protect the group, and Lilly immediately assumes she's a traitor. She tells Ben that if he says Carley did it, everything is "right as rain". Her last demand to Ben is for him to say Carley did it and not him. All of this BEFORE Carley called Lilly a bitch. Carley is consistently her target and she only accuses Ben in attempts to get him to snitch on Carley. Carley only finally told Lilly off after several minutes of unfounded accusations and threats, but the intent to get rid of Carley was already laid bare for everyone to see.
She doesn't regret killing Carley, the first thing she says afterwards is "She couldn't be trusted! I swear!" Her face says "What did I just do to myself!" She never says she's sorry and she never asks for forgiveness because in her eyes she didn't do anything all that wrong. Her only regret was by killing Carley it turned the group against her. If they had for some bizarre reason agreed with what she did she could care less.
Far as I'm concerned I gave Lilly her second chance when I let her back in the R.V., and she used it to stab me in the back. She didn't want to talk about what she did, or what happened, she just took the first chance she could to save her own skin, and this is how she acts if you go out of you way to help her! All the time she sat on her ass somewhere safe while everyone else, including Carley, went out and took all the risks, then she murders the same person who's been helping protect her, and when that goes over poorly she ditched everyone when they were no longer any use to her.
So yeah, I'll take that asshole Kenny over Lilly any day of the week. He lost his whole family too and even at his very worse he treated me better than Lilly at her very best.
"I was trying to protect all of us. She couldn't be trusted." Yeah, that certainly sounds apologetic. Maybe if she said "sorry" or "it was a mistake" or something i would believe that. Actions speak louder than words(and facial expressions). With Doug i can believe that she was sorry for it since she actually says it was a mistake, but her sadness about Carley was more likely to save face so she could stay with the group.
Why would Kenny waste time trying to convince someone else to kill Ben if he had the time and the means to do it himself? He's not the type of person who would care what other people think, so there is no reason to not kill him by his own hands if he truly wanted him dead. He's shown in the past that he will take matters into his own hands if he has to, not hope that somebody else will get rid of his problems.
I'm sorry, but what in the hell makes you think that? The game certainly makes it seem that she feels regret for what she did, with her facial structure and what Katjaa says:
"She's probably in shock, she did a monstrous thing."
Yeah yeah, that's only what Katjaa thinks. What does she know, right? No, that's what the game says and I take it with way more face value then what your hatred induced interpretation, no offence. It would have been great if she apologized for what she did, but I'm not her to argue that Lilly is a saint or what have you. She's far from it, but she isn't soulless. Despite what this forums believes, she's not a monster, she's still human.
I know Lilly and Carley didn't necessarily get along, probably because they were on different ends of the spectrum (Carley being more so humane and Lilly being more so a survivalist), but that hatred only served to make her accuse her easier while in her unstable / paranoid state. If she was more stable I believe she would have approached the situation much more rationally and much less... crazy. Although that's just my opinion.
I know I've said this before in the past but what Kenny did to me in episode four is much, much worse than anything Lilly has done to me. I sided with Kenny almost entirely through my playthrough, but he claims I hadn't. That I was never there for him. Why? Because I refused to kill Larry. The result of which? He'd leave Clementine in the hands of, what could easily be, a rapist. That is just so wrong on so many levels, it's only made worse due to the continued support I consistently gave him through out every episode.
Let'a compare Lilly and Kenny's worst actions towards Lee, shall we?
- Lilly takes an RV that apparently had very little life left in it
- Kenny leaves Clementine in the hands of what could easily be a rapist
I understand that you could convince him to come anyways, but that doesn't justify it at all. The fact that you have to convince him is just... ugh. You could say "I need you" and he'll still be like fuck that. How would Lilly react given the situation? Who knows, the scenario never happened so I can't comment on it with any authority. All I know is that Kenny back stabbed me and Clementine while turning a blind eye for everything I've done for him.This all rather opinionated though. I respect your opinion and I kindly ask you respect mine and other Lilly supporters and it would be in everyone's best interest to just leave this thread. This is a Lilly appreciation thread not a "let's talk about why you hate Lilly" thread.
A rapist? Vernon? Where did you get that?
Besides i consider shooting my closest friend in the head to be a negative action towards me.
It's certainly not an appreciation thread anymore, but it more a discussion on her character than a "hate thread" she has a fair few defenders, the debate was always going to happen, there are a few angles to approach her character from and that's why she was such a good one (character not person...)
Then don't if that's how you feel, but I don't mind a debate and I don't care this is a Lilly appreciation thread. I'm not doing this just to make trouble, but if you want to insist Lilly is just some sort of misunderstood person then don't be surprised if someone has a differing opinion.
If you want to leave this at agreeing to disagree that's fine too, but as long you're pleading your case...
Katjaa is also in favor of leaving Lilly on the side of the road. And Lilly possibly being in shock doesn't mean she's sorry for murdering Carley. It sounds a lot more like she was sorry for herself. No matter what you did she'll out Lee as a murderer to protect herself and insists she has NOTHING left, suggesting to me no one in the group, even Lee if he's been a saint to her, means anything to her.
Human? The fucking St. Johns are human, the bandits are human, the stranger is a human. Humans are capable of doing some pretty heinous shit, it's probably the Walking Dead core theme. And I've never said Lilly was a soulless demon, I've said she's a selfish asshole who eventually became an amoral sociopath.
Even before Larry died she wasn't exactly a bastion of reasonable behavior. She repeatedly insists on leaving people, from Lee and Kenny's families in Macon (who were only saved because Carley of Glenn) to Ben and his company to telling Mark he's only there because he had food at one point. She refuses to discuss anything people disagree with her about and she contradicts herself. She won't consider leaving the hotel but complains about there being no food, yet she has no idea of where to get food. What the fuck? How much reason would this woman really see if Larry hadn't died? If he hadn't died he'd be there probably insisting with Lilly to throw Carley or Ben out on the road after the bandit attack. Don't forget Larry tried to kill Lee after Lee saved his life!
And how is it Lilly's instability gives her a pass on so much of her behavior but Kenny's doesn't? You don't think Kenny was losing his shit after his son slowly died and his wife shot herself? The events of episodes 3-5 take place over a period of what, three or four days? During which Kenny sees a kid who died of malnutrition as a zombie. How stable did you really think he was?
Not to mention this is on top of the fact that nearly fucking everyone has seen horrible shit at this point. Clem was stuck alone in a tree house for days avoiding her reanimated babysitter and has no idea what happened to her parents in the months that follow. Carley watched her news editor get eaten right in front of her and if you fix the radio she gets the pleasure of hearing most of friends probably die. Ben has no idea what happened to his family and spends months watching all of his classmates get picked off one by one. Lee finds out his parents are dead and has to finish off his zombified brother just to get keys to save Larry who turns around and tries to murder him for the favor!
I'm sorry, I don't buy her being unstable as a justification for how she acts, especially considering she refuses to talk to anyone about it and was horribly unreasonable and often heartless BEFORE her instability. And how much time did she need to grieve? Kenny says in episode three the bandits had the group's number for WEEKS! Even assuming the writer's just messed up the time passage, it seems like at very least several days pass between episode two and three. What happens to her, horrible as it is, doesn't seem any more horrible then what most of the group has seen.
Yes I know, you never stop bringing it up. I too was disgusted that he wouldn't willingly come with me to find Clementine because I didn't help him kill Larry. But you seem so focused on this one shitty act you're overlooking all the nasty shit Lilly really did.
Mind if I make a more complete list?
Kenny's Worst at his Worst
Lilly's Worst at her Best
And that's Lilly's BEST. If you're less than supportive she also watches Andy nearly kills Lee while Clementine looks on in horror, accuses you of stealing supplies, and talks about how she thought about killing Lee when his back is turned.
I'm sorry, what's that? About Lilly not being in that situation that Kenny so horribly pissed you off with? Why wasn't she there? Oh, that's right, because there's no way to convince her to not abandon Lee and Clementine. I agree that having to guilt trip Kenny to come with you if you hadn't done most everything he wanted is extremely shitty of him, but at least there is some way to get him to come!
The only way to prevent Lilly from ditching everyone is to ditch her first. Nothing you say or do will convince her otherwise, and if you agree to come with her, she leaves you anyways the second you go to get Clementine! You really think this woman would have gone with Lee to rescue Clementine?
The same person who wanted to leave them both and three others outside the drugstore? Who constantly stayed behind while Lee, Kenny, Mark, Carley, Glenn and most everyone else constantly risked their lives to get supplies and other things people needed? The same person who flipped out and killed someone after a "traitor" stole supplies? How'd you think she'd react if she found out Clementine was secretly feeding a stalker over the radio information about the group?
I don't know when the R.V. stealing scene went down for you, but for me it was the very first thing that happened on my first playthrough. The second I got out at the train stop I went right back in the R.V. because I wanted to talk to Lilly, see if there was anything I could do. She refuses to talk, and the second I go up front and off-handily take a pencil, she frees herself, shoves Lee's ass out of the R.V. after I said she could leave sans the R.V. and takes the only shelter or transportation that I knew the group had.
And for what? Why? It wasn't fear of death, Lee prevented just that by not leaving her on the side of the road. It's because the group will no longer humor her as leader and may expect her to put herself at risk, and she wouldn't have any of that. She ditches everyone, just to save herself, even if you've never once given her a reason to distrust you. As much as Kenny pisses me off nothing was as shameful as that. Hell, provided you hadn't deliberately gone out of your way to be an asshole to Kenny he'll tell you he'll be waiting for you to get back with Clem even when he doesn't come with you to get her. That's sadly more than Lilly was going to do for Lee no matter what he did for her.
And again, nothing you do changes this about Lilly, unlike Kenny, who if you honor is stupid requests, he refuses to let you go alone! From a purely gameplay standpoint Lilly is irredeemable. There is no option to make her see reason there is no way to talk her out of abandoning everyone. Those are her best case scenarios!
And this has nothing to do with her originally being a character in the comics. Telltale could have contrived things anyway they liked, they could have made it where Kenny leaves Lilly at the hotel, or Lee could reason with Lilly and Kenny leaves Lilly with the R.V. when the train is up and working. They could have put that option in there to show you Lilly really wasn't a bad person at heart, and they didn't, and I think that was deliberate. They wanted to lead people on to make them think they could help Lilly and in the end the you really can't. Lilly doesn't want anyone's help, she doesn't want anyone period really, and that's who she is.
And that makes for some exceptional story telling, but I still hate her ass.
I'm not the first nor will I be the last person to debate's Lilly's character on this thread and I'm not posting here to deliberately spite people who like Lilly. But if you're going to say things like "I could never understand this board and their intense hatred towards Lilly...", you should expect a response.
I do have a question for you though. How many times have you played the Walking Dead Game from start to finish and how often do you mix up your choices? Because despite what you may think, I didn't immediately hate Lilly on my first playthrough and rush here to celebrate it. Even after what she had done I pitied Lilly, I felt sorry for her. I'd say I used to feel the way you seem to now.
But every time I replayed the game I noticed more and more things about Lilly I didn't catch or didn't pay attention to on my first playthrough. And after a while I resented her instead of pitying her, and somewhere during repeat playthroughs that resentment turned to hatred. Her character has a lot of depth, this myriad of opinions on Lilly is a testament how well written she was.
But my discovery wasn't there was this well meaning person under Lilly's behavior, it was a spiteful coward hiding the exterior of a self-proclaimed survivalist. A scared girl pretending to be a tough bitch just like Carley said. And her only answer to being afraid was to hurt others. That's just my opinion though.
Telling him that they shouldn't be bringing new people to the inn in the first place /= saying they should immediately be kicked out - the very fact she says otherwise demonstrates as much.
And even then, not being welcoming to strangers is pretty damn prudent.
I've said it before, but scoreboard: under Lilly's leadership the group survived basically intact for three months; following Kenny's plan gets damn near the entire group killed within a week. Kenny could be the kindest, warmest soul on the planet and it wouldn't matter - following his lead demonstrably gets you killed.
This.
I've covered this before too; leadership isn't some magical statistic where if it's high enough people magically fall in line. If somebody's dead set on doing their own thing, they're going to.
If I were to disobey an order from my C.O. when I was in the service, who do you think is held at fault? Me, or my C.O.? Hint, there's a charge for disobeying orders; failure to subjugate people with the power of your mind? Not so much.
And again... Scoreboard. When Kenny's de facto in charge, gets his way about looking for a boat, etc. damn near the entire group ends up dead within about a half a week with nothing to show for it. And these weren't unforseen circumstances either, pretty much every problem the group ran into? I saw them coming prior to Episode 3 being released.
Duck(chained with Katjaa)'s death sentence occurs during Lilly's leadership, and Larry, Mark, Carley AND Doug's death occurs during her leadership as well. She is effectively still the leader until after she fires the pistol on the roadside, since she demands that everyone get out of the RV and also states that no one will be getting back on until the situation is resolved.
Lilly: 5 deaths(Carley, Doug, Duck, Larry, Mark)
Kenny: 5 deaths(Himself, Ben, Lee, Chuck, Brie)
Kenny still has a(slim) chance at being alive, so that's up for debate. Katjaa's difficult to fit to either side, since although she died during Kenny's rule, her death occurred 100% directly because of an event during Lilly's rule. Brie followed Vernon's rule, not Kenny's so she could also drop the count.
Kenny also becomes less of a leader as time goes on, and by Crawford he is effectively no longer the leader at all. Instead, everyone is working together, or arguably Lee is the leader. Lilly's position never changes up to her departure.
This is not the service. Their civies. Lily is not a C.O. And the group is not one person Lee/Ken/Carly/Doug/Kat/ and even Larry disagree on how she TRIES to run things. In three months she lead them into a bandit attack.Loss of food weapons and shelter. Murder of Doug or Carly. Then abandons children in the street with nothing. The group has to get on the train because of Lily stealing the RV. Kenny worked with what Lily left which is nothing. A good leader stays through the good and bad. Kenny stayed to the end saving members lives at the possibility of his own demise. Were Lily does the opposite. In three months Lily put the group on the fast track to death.
I'd say Lilly would have gotten them killed sooner. Who knows who else she would have killed? And Kenny wasn't even leader, it was basically lee. Kenny gave orders, but lee was usually the one who made all the tough decisions. That and the fact that even if you call Kenny leader, the only reason they aren't on a boat cruising right now is because they stole from the station wagon. However, if they hadnt stolen from the station wagon, like Lilly AT FIRST didnt want, they most likely would have all died. That and the fact that Lilly left the group with few supplies, ammo and the sort, and no free-moving vehicle for quick travel, they really didnt have much to work on. All the food, meds, and weapons were left at the motel during the raid. What REALLY could Kenny do? Scavenge for supplies? They had a horde coming after them! Flee Savannah? How, on foot, with no ammunition, or supplies at all? Where the hell would they go? It was hard enough for them to get around Savannah, not along OUT.
I don't mean to defend Kenny; he was a shitty leader. But Lilly was no better, I'd say worse. If it had been up to her, everyone would be dead at that motel; the place she didnt want to leave. That, or dead from starvation.
I'd say Brie's and Ben's deaths were Ben's fault; there was nothing Kenny could do. By the time he realized he was a threat, Brie was eaten into. Ben would have died whether he was left, dropped, or in the alleyway. That, and Kenny's "death" was chained to his family's deaths, which was under Lilly's leadership.
There's actually only one confirmed survivor of following Kenny's boat plan. There's also the fact that Lilly wasn't the de facto leader during the drug store siege; Kenny was. I'm inclined to hold Katjaa responsible for her own death (even though it occurred on Kenny's watch).
The simple fact remains that the group lasted far longer under Lilly's leadership than they did following Kenny's plan.
Actually, the group has to get on the train because it's blocking the road.
And it still doesn't deal with the point; Kenny's plan (with all of its glaring problems) gets pretty much the entire group killed within a week. It's that simple. He's quantifiably worse than the alternative.
the bandits. Lily would not even be alive if not for Kenny's RV plan. Kenny wanted to leave way eariler. Lily's stay right here plan is no good. Cause if it was so good of an idea the group would still be there. Alive. Lily's grand idea to stay is an EPIC FAILURE.
Kenny wanted to look for a boat earlier... and? When he gets his way, damn near the entire group ends up within days as a result. Under Lilly, they survived for over three months. No amount of quibbling changes that fact.
There's no reason to assume it would've gone better if they left earlier either, because the problems the group ran into were fundamental problems with Kenny's plan. There still wouldn't have been any boats to find at the docks, and you'd realistically run into far more walkers as you neared the coast than elsewhere (since coastal regions account for the majority of the population).
If that is true, then it is Kenny who keeps the group alive for those three months, not Lilly. He is the one who decides the motor inn is where they'll stay and how they'll defend it, and Lilly agrees, then the three months pass. Unless you know for certain who ruled during those three months, it cannot be said that either of them was de facto leader until the beginning of episode 2.
I agree, man of the decisions made were by Kenny's choosing. Lilly wanted the group to go to the Dairy, and if it had not been for Kenny and Lee snooping around, they all would have died in that meat locker, or something even worse... Also, he leads the group while Lilly cares for her father in episode 1, and leads the group while Lilly flees with her father. Lilly was leader when it didn't matter. Kenny usually had to make the tough choices, if not then Lee.
I have to disagree. That firefight was actually beginning to favor team Lilly. Carley had the left flank covered and Lee had the right. When Kenny did get the RV running I only saw a few walkers left and we could have held.
If we had used the RV to plug the hole in the barricade, retreated back to our rooms and stayed quiet....maybe it would have worked. I still think Lilly's plan was better. It seemed like a good idea to me to stay where there is water and shelter at least for the winter as planned. Lilly did agree that eventually we would have to leave the motel.
Patently dishonest; the siege didn't last three months. And we do know who was in charge during those three months because it's clearly stated - nobody else stepped up except Lilly, nobody disputes that fact; she handed out the rations, trained the group in the use of their weapons, etc. hell, even the St. Johns pick up on it if you try to tell them anybody else is the leader.
So again... Scoreboard: Under Lilly, the group survived three months, following Kenny's plan, they pretty much all end up dead within about three days. That's really the only criteria that matters.
The Stranger didn't kill anybody; the walkers did. Which incidentally is a fundamental problem with the boat plan; the coast is going to have the highest population of undead people. It wasn't that hard to figure out, since the coast had the highest population density of previously living people.
Common sense, coastal regions in the U.S. account for about 20% of the landmass, but over half the total population of the country.
Simply put, going to the coast as a way to avoid walkers was pants on head stupid, and I said as much in the "Fuck Kenny" thread last Summer for the same reason (among others). The group didn't die from dehydration, or starvation, or infection. Lack of supplies was irrelevant, Kenny's plan got them killed well before then. They died because Kenny stupidly thought going to a formerly densely populated coastal region to avoid dead people was a good idea.
And if you can claim Kenny isn't responsible for what Ben did while following his plan (getting Brie and/or himself killed); there's no reason that doesn't apply to Duck/Katjaa.
Fact remains, Kenny's quantifiably far worse; between the two the average life expectancy for a group member was several times longer under Lilly's leadership than Kenny's.
Because Lilly happened to get damn lucky? And no, under Lilly's leadership they lost Carley and Doug, Larry, and Mark. Those four were some of the strongest of the group, and without them, the entire group collapsed. With Lilly's reign, the group had shelter, decent amount of supplies, good stock of weapons, and they still got fucked over.
Kenny had little to work off of, a group barely holding on, trusts were broken, Kenny was a mental and emotional mess, Ben was absolutely useless due to his guilt, and Katjaa and Duck were just done; Duck was bitten and there was no way to stop Katjaa from killing herself, if you think of one let me know, but she had a gin in her hands, nobody saw it coming(as she was usually full of hope and thought logically), and just a kind person, so those of the group probably assumed she'd speak about it if she felt she couldn't go on(that's how I felt). Upon leaving the motor inn, which I still blame Lilly who had a kid on watch and even though she didn't seem to be doing much outside of keeping everyone on schedule, and I cannot believe someone like BEN could sneak up on her and steal supplies from under her nose, and after she realized it didn't hide them or lock them up somewhere, they had little to no food and water, extremely limited on weaponry, and low on other essential supplies like medications. The situation with Ben was her problem, and how she handled it was wrong(but my opinion).
The group was a wreak by that point, and with three new members added to a loss of four in one day? With no way of keeping them needless? Not even knowing if they could be trusted? AND a traitor? No food, no water, no meds, barely anything as firearms were concerned, no free-moving vehicles, and only able to go where the tracks could lead them. They couldn't go around the train, and so had to abandon the RV, which was only going to get them so far anyway. So just what the hell could they do? The train didn't exactly have a 'reverse' xD. And the boat idea wouldn't have been too bad if they had the supplies. No, it wasn't GREAT, but hell, it was better than waiting to die in a motor inn where they were stuck between bandits and a hard place.
I do not count Brie as Kenny's fault for three reasons.
1.) Ben took out the hatchet; ya know, the liability brought in during Lilly's leadership? What happened to that training schedule? Ben seemed pretty useless with guns, melees, pretty much anything he put his hands on. That and the fact that if Lilly had actually been watching out as a leader should, then maybe Ben's fuckup could have turned into something useful. She didn't have to threaten the damn kid. Had she interrogated calmly(for it was obvious he was the culprit), they could have figured everything out and snuck out(or at least prepared for attacks, cuz' I'm sure Lilly wouldn't want to leave her little cubby hole).
2.) Brie wasn't exactly defenseless, and she let her guard down for the walkers to break through, because she was more concerned of voting than the dead behind the door she was holding shut.
3.)Brie wasn't part of Kenny's/Lee's group, but Vernon's. We never counted Andy/Danny/Brenda on Lilly's list, or Irene(defenseless girl you could shoot), or Jolene(girl who stole Clem's hat), or the bandits, so why count Brie? Why not count Molly if you shoot her on accident? Because they didn't matter. They weren't "members" of the group. And if you count Molly, she could be alive.
I also don't count as that, because you could also blame yourself/Lee and Christa for the deaths, for they were leaders more than Kenny in episode 4 and 5. Only if you didn't react or said the wrong things did Christa or Kenny take over(except for certain occasions like the attic).
I just feel Lilly as more responsible, yes I'd give Kenny a share of the blame, but Lilly gave Kenny a barely lit torch that he had to keep going, and it isn't out; people did survive, maybe even him. Lee even. Vernon. Molly. Who really knows(besides Telltale)? I don't mean to point fingers, but Lilly didn't give Kenny and the others much to work on, so I find your points kind of biased.
An example: How much trouble we are in today that our previous presidents caused(if live in U.S.) that recent presidents have tried to correct? It isn't easy, and so far, only little progress has been made, and every time a breakthrough is seen, it goes downhill. So Kenny had little chance of preserving the group that was so broken. The group only survived because with Lilly(until it all got fucked up), they had walls to protect them and shelter.
So yeah, they survived with Lilly longer, but they had Kenny there too, who made quite a few of the decisions. And I'd rather have Lee or Kenny as a leader than Lilly, although Kenny wasn't much better with his sorrow and grief.
Again, you do not know who was the leader for the three months. After the siege is over Lilly showed no signs of taking back the reigns at the motor inn at the end of episode 3. For all we know she could have started the training schedules and rations two days before the start of episode 2. She's in charge of the weapons training and rations, that doesn't automatically make her leader of every aspect of the group. Hell, Lee has more power than her when he makes the decision to go to the St. Johns farm, which Lilly obviously disagrees with initially.
Even with her leading for three months, the group's deaths were evenly split between Kenny and Lilly(and breaking them down individually result in more deaths for Lilly), not piled onto Kenny alone, so no one comes out on top. Your scoreboard is rigged.
I agree bout the scoreboard being rigged. One thing though, Lilly at first wanted to go. Kenny didnt. Once they got there, Lilly didnt like it because somebody got hurt, as if that doesn't happen everywhere. Kenny then wanted to stay.
Well, that shoots me down. At least the second part still holds some form of truth.
And following Kenny's plan, there's only one confirmed survivor (Clementine). And the idea that Katjaa's suicide couldn't be forseen is well, silly... "I love our son more than life itself" ring a bell?
Lack of supplies was a non-issue following Kenny's plan. It didn't matter; if the group died of dehydration or starvation? Yeah, there might be a case to be made. Instead, they all died because Kenny lead them to a densely populated coastal region.
Again, false; we know she was rationing the supplies Mark brought and allowed him to stay on that basis (and he was with the group for those three months, so...) before the food shortage. Plus, common sense. You can't train an average person to use a firearm with any real proficiency without it taking atleast weeks, nevermind all the associated tasks such as how to maintain it, clean it, etc.
And, as noted, Lilly didn't disagree with going to the farm. She was opposed to staying once Mark was shot (which, incidentally, wasn't the wrong call).
It's not my fault Lilly's quantifiably better than Kenny; because even with an even split? A group's member's average life expectancy is still far longer under Lilly than Kenny.
Maybe that's what happened in your game. In my game, I opted not to go to the dairy. Lilly, the more than obvious leader of the group, called for a vote by the group to go or not to go to the dairy.
Kenny was the first to vote and he voted to go to the dairy. When it came time for Lee to vote he asked Clem what she wanted to do. She said she was very hungry. Lee then said it looks like we're going to the dairy.
Lilly never voted but it seemed pretty clear that the majority opted to go to the dairy.
She voted, but indirectly. She wanted to go to the dairy, that's why as soon as the men show up, Lilly said "Lee go check the place out" blah blah blah I forget it all. Then after he says that you can speak your mind about the dairy. She was automatically getting people to head out without their opinion. So yes, SHE was the first one to vote, if you could kinda read between the lines. I'm sure Larry wanting to go would make her go anyway.
Yet you claim the reason they failed was due to that. But in reality it was simply because Lilly left them with the supplies they needed. They had lost their rifles, much of their ammunition, and they were low on ammo for their pistols. No good vehicle left for them(Lilly steals the RV that was going to die out anyway, and a train was in front of them.), and no place for shelter. Lilly had a safe place because Glenn found it, Kenny made the plan to fortify it, and that they found Mark with a lot of supplies. It was LUCK.
Kenny was left with little to nothing, a group that was falling apart by the seems(even Lee), and a train that would attract walkers everywhere. That is what killed them, not the city. They brought thouands of walkers down on them because they had no good vehicle to go on. They couldn't even take the RV since it wouldn't last long, so their choice was the train. All those walkers caught up to a high speed train in what a few hours at most?
The walkers in the city were a fair amount, and they did kill Chuck, Brie, and possibly Ben. However, Chuck's was Molly's fault, Brie was split between Ben and Vernon, and Ben's was entirely avoidable. I'd only blame Kenny for Ben's since he basically tells you to drop him.
Yeah, Lilly's loss of the group was due to "mental instability" because that is what people like to call it. Well, Kenny lost his entire family, his reason for living. You expect him to think clearly? He wanted everything to just go away.
Kenny also saw a lot of things Lilly never did.
Regardless of what Kenny would have done, there would always be more walkers. I think there was a HELL of a lot more on his plate,and he had what 6 group members he barely knew? Chuck, Brie, Vernon, Molly, Christa and Omid? They couldn't trust the St. John's, and they had trouble working together as a group.
I don't mean to defend Kenny so much, because he had a terrible boat plan, and his plan did cause people to die, but if they had Carley/Doug, and Katjaa and Duck, I think the game would have played out much more smoothly. Kenny, IMO, had a better shot and overall was a better leader. Just as you say Lilly is. Well, fine, I don't see it, but it's yours.
A good person wouldn't kill a group member for no reason
A good person wouldn't rob and leave her own people for dead
Her being a vindictive bully and acts as the groups dictator was just a foreshadow of her personality.
Kenny may be a douche at times but he's nowhere on Lilly's level, he's Gandhi compared to her.
You say that she never did anything but i disagree . She saved Lee and everybody before meeting the group in the drugstore , she saves Clem from the walker from the bathroom if you don't save her in time , she goes with Lee to save Glenn , she kills walker David , she shows up to rescue the group from the St Johns and she helps Lee with the bandits and the walkers .
Why do you exactly hate her ? Is it because she always saves Lee and not Lilly ? Is it because she kisses Lee and Lilly doesn't ?
You also said that the group falling apart was her fault and i think you also said that Duck getting bitten was her fault . If so than Lee pretty much is responsible for the destruction of the group because he never saved Mark from getting hit by a arrow and brought everybody to the St Johns .
It seems that you keep making Carley look like a monster just to make Lilly look better and making her to be the most innocent woman on the planet .
You say that Kenny destroyed the group and his family , but than you say that Ben destroyed the group and than you say that Carley destroyed the group and Duck .
Lilly may be a good person , but if you side with her she will be your friend while Doug/Carley will always be your friends and you don't have to side with them to be your friends .