Finally something we kinda agree on.
Now let's discuss again how disappointing Portal 2 was.
Not very. I loved Portal 2. Nowhere near as much as I loved Portal, though. The gel was a cool addition and I still put it as one of my favourite games. Just people who seem to like it more than the first do so because of how it was much more of a production, which is what I didn't like about it. I loved Portal because it was just a small project that a small group in Valve was working on. They didn't expect anything from it, which is why they just stuck it in the Orange Box. That's what I loved about it and made it my favourite game. It was the perfect length and the perfect difficulty. It was funny and had great characters. Don't get me wrong, Portal 2's characters were great, too. Cave and Wheatley were amazingly well done, but I preferred it when it was just you and GLaDOS (and Companion Cube). Problem is, Portal will never be able to be a small project again since it became such an enormous hit. Which is why, though I might foam at the mouth at mention of a Portal sequel, I'll never expect any of them to reach the level of the first in my book.
SHODAN, hmm. Dishonored is somewhat a mix of Thief and Dark Messiah (another Arcane Studios game).
Ironically, I remember a few Adventure Game websites Adventure Gamers, and Just Adventures IIRC, praising the Thief games (First Person Sneakers) as having the atmospheric and production values of the best Adventure games. What with the exploration, and slow-paced development of the story (having to find letters, and books etc), without relying on too much action.
But it seemed to be the kind of game that would be outside of styles an Adventure Game website would usually review.
OF course Dishonored makes partially similar gameplay, but makes it far more frenetic... Even trying to keep to pure stealth, non-kill requires some acrobatic quick movements to succeed.
See, now, I worded my choices VERY carefully so that every game you could think of as an 'adventure' would fall under one of those four subgenres. I didn't just throw them out willy-nilly. I PLANNED this thing. Like, properly.
You give me an example - anything - and I'll tell you exactly why it's one of those four. Without fail.
Go on. Try me.
I can only pick on examples I've personally played. Text Adventures, Leisure Suit Larry in the Land of the Lounge Lizards (AGI version), Escape from Monkey Island and Grim Fandango all have no mouse support and yet fit into Classic. LSL1-6 can all be played easily without a mouse (SMI and MI2 can be too but it's a faff). LOOM is not inventory-based and yet probably falls within Classic territory. Heavy Rain had choices that influenced your game much more than in TWD and yet had Action elements rather than inventory elements. I'm guessing Fables will be both inventory based and choice tree based. S&M Season 3 saw a dramatic shift away from inventory-based gameplay. Where would you put that? Indiana Jones had different story based on decisions made in dialogue and had Action elements. Many of the earlier Graphic Adventures (even as far as MI2!) had pixel hunting, which is the only gameplay element in Hidden Object games, so where do you put the lines? Looks a bit flimsy to me, this pigeonholing.
- Classic Adventure
- Story Adventure, aka Cinematic Adventure (just thought of that, much better name for it)
- Puzzle Adventure
The whole Failed Adventure thing was me taking a dig at Hidden Object games, so forget about that one.
Heavy Rain is obviously a Cinematic Adventure, while Sam & Max: TDP is still Classic, though you can see elements of Cinematic creeping in. As for those earlier games you mention... I'd need an example or two to really see what you mean.
I'd say both the psychic abilities in S&M:S3 and the chords you pick up in Loom constitutes an inventory of sorts, so they fall well within the definition of classic adventure. I also don't think a couple of pixel hunting situations makes enough of an influence on a game to compare it to the abomination that is hidden object games. And I don't remember any pixel hunting in the first two Monkey Islands. Fate of Atlantis did have this problem though.
so where do you put the lines? Looks a bit flimsy to me, this pigeonholing.
It's kinda like... the combination of the different aspects of an adventure game can add up together to make it a classic, cinematic or puzzle adventure.
That is to say, a game can be more cinematic in this way while more classic in that, while another is considered cinematic for different reasons.
Kind of like a math problem. X + Y + Z = "Adventure"
Where the values are individually graded on a scale.
For this scenario, let's give "cinematic" values on each scale for each variable a negative numerical value; while "classic" values for each variable have a positive numerical value. Also, if we consider each aspect to be more or less important to the equation, we might instead write the equation as something like 2x + 1.5y + z = "Adventure"
In this case, if "Adventure" equals a negative numerical value, it is cinematic. If it has a positive numerical value, it is classic.
EDIT: Also, maybe it could be said that if "adventure" has a given value close enough to zero, it is then a Puzzle Adventure; where the overall value of "adventure" is affected by how the values of "puzzle" and "story" relate to each other.
Dude, you sound like my old maths teacher. Don't be that guy, he sucked.
Well, he was like "those are stupid classifications because this classic game is that way and that cinematic game is this way"; and I was thinking "no, it depends on how each part combines and interacts with each other".
With that in mind, someone else can feel free to come along and turn it into a chemistry lesson instead of an algebra problem.
I'd say both the psychic abilities in S&M:S3 and the chords you pick up in Loom constitutes an inventory of sorts, so they fall well within the definition of classic adventure.
I also don't think a couple of pixel hunting situations makes enough of an influence on a game to compare it to the abomination that is hidden object games. And I don't remember any pixel hunting in the first two Monkey Islands.
SMI: Makeshift posts for the bundles of rope; bananas in fruit bowl; loose floorboard; room exits in the caves.
MI2: Ash-2-Life; string; the gags in the International House of Mojo and in the odds shop; explosives storage; room where the BW chest lands while it's dark; coin return; trash can (once Guybrush is standing in front of it); syringe drawer.
With that in mind, someone else can feel free to come along and turn it into a chemistry lesson instead of an algebra problem.
Your algebra works while there are only two variables. As soon as you have a third, you have to rate each (eg. out of 10 or & composition) and go for the variable with the highest value.
I was a fan of Telltale Games from 2006 to 2010. It was fun. Since then, they've released nothing that interests me and it's now clear that they never will. It's only quite recently that I finally admitted this to myself. I guess it's fine that they've decided to ignore where they've come from in favor of where they're going, but it is kind of disappointing.
What's more disappointing than the fact that they've decided to stop making adventure games (as I consider them; you are free to disagree) is the way the company's image and culture have changed. There was a time when Telltale Games represented, to me, the hope that game developers didn't have to be cold and indifferent to their fans. They listened, they interacted, they were incredibly responsive to our every concern. Actual devs posted on the forums. When I had a problem, I told old-tyme TTG rep Emily and she went so far out of her way to help me that I was amazed, and I told her so in an email.
Here's what I said:
I want to say that you guys are fantastic, and not just for keeping the adventure genre alive with some really great games (although certainly that!). The way Telltale does... well, everything impresses me, from customer service (When the first sam and max DVD came out, I didn't have a DVD-ROM drive... you guys sent me a CD-ROM even though I was the only one with this issue, and still sent me the DVD to boot!) to giving the people what they want (Around the time TT formed, the cries for Sam and Max were everywhere, and you brought us Sam and Max. Almost as incessant were the demands for Monkey Island, and although it must have taken a lot of doing, now you've done that too). You guys really listen to and communicate with your fans, and I really appreciate it. Even in press releases and on the website, where most game companies would use stilted PR speak, Telltale communicates in a way that immediately sets a gamer like me at ease - "don't worry, man, we get it."
Boy, was I ever a satisfied customer. To me, Telltale seems to no longer be the sort of company I was talking about there - now they're like most game companies, which disappoints me. Plenty of people like their new games and I honestly wish them success, but I won't be paying much attention anymore.
I was a fan of Telltale Games from 2006 to 2010. It was fun. Since then, they've released nothing that interests me and it's now clear that they never will. It's only quite recently that I finally admitted this to myself. I guess it's fine that they've decided to ignore where they've come from in favor of where they're going, but it is kind of disappointing.
What's more disappointing than the fact that they've decided to stop making adventure games (as I consider them; you are free to disagree) is the way the company's image and culture have changed. There was a time when Telltale Games represented, to me, the hope that game developers didn't have to be cold and indifferent to their fans. They listened, they interacted, they were incredibly responsive to our every concern. Actual devs posted on the forums. When I had a problem, I told old-tyme TTG rep Emily and she went so far out of her way to help me that I was amazed, and I told her so in an email.
Here's what I said:
I want to say that you guys are fantastic, and not just for keeping the adventure genre alive with some really great games (although certainly that!). The way Telltale does... well, everything impresses me, from customer service (When the first sam and max DVD came out, I didn't have a DVD-ROM drive... you guys sent me a CD-ROM even though I was the only one with this issue, and still sent me the DVD to boot!) to giving the people what they want (Around the time TT formed, the cries for Sam and Max were everywhere, and you brought us Sam and Max. Almost as incessant were the demands for Monkey Island, and although it must have taken a lot of doing, now you've done that too). You guys really listen to and communicate with your fans, and I really appreciate it. Even in press releases and on the website, where most game companies would use stilted PR speak, Telltale communicates in a way that immediately sets a gamer like me at ease - "don't worry, man, we get it."
Boy, was I ever a satisfied customer. To me, Telltale seems to no longer be the sort of company I was talking about there - now they're like most game companies, which disappoints me. Plenty of people like their new games and I honestly wish them success, but I won't be paying much attention anymore.
Well, I doubt many will read this, but in the sake of fairness I wanted to note that the devs still post on the forums, which is cool. But I really felt hung out to dry by Telltale when they followed the announcement of King's Quest with two years of utter silence and a cancellation. Combine that with statements about how the traditional adventure game genre doesn't need Telltale anymore, how they're "not about the past," and how puzzles are history, and I can't even recognize today's Telltale anymore.
I guess now that Walking Dead is a huge hit, Telltale doesn't need or want those of us who made the company a success in the first place anymore. CEO Dan Connors has made it crystal clear that there is no room in his company's future for traditional adventure games. For the record, I am well aware that Telltale doesn't owe me anything - I bought their games, I enjoyed their games, that's a fair transaction. But for me (and I doubt I'm the only one) it really sucks.
Well, I doubt many will read this, but in the sake of fairness I wanted to note that the devs still post on the forums, which is cool. But I really felt hung out to dry by Telltale when they followed the announcement of King's Quest with two years of utter silence and a cancellation. Combine that with statements about how the traditional adventure game genre doesn't need Telltale anymore, how they're "not about the past," and how puzzles are history, and I can't even recognize today's Telltale anymore.
I guess now that Walking Dead is a huge hit, Telltale doesn't need or want those of us who made the company a success in the first place anymore. CEO Dan Connors has made it crystal clear that there is no room in his company's future for traditional adventure games. For the record, I am well aware that Telltale doesn't owe me anything - I bought their games, I enjoyed their games, that's a fair transaction. But for me (and I doubt I'm the only one) it really sucks.
This is exactly how I feel. Moving away from actual adventure games and towards interactive movie non-games is one thing, but the way Telltale reps repeatedly insult the adventure game genre that is finally making a comeback thanks in large part to Kickstarter really makes me sick. Telltale never did much good for the adventure game genre, anyway. They just tried to suck all remaining life out of popular, existing adventure brands, then tried to convince us all, in a self-serving way, that adventure games as we have known and loved them are over and done with and that interactive movies are the future. What was pathetic was how, for a while, many in the gaming press actually went along with this self-serving PR talking point of theirs.
Telltale people will say they love adventure games when it suits them, but will turn their backs on the adventure game community in a heartbeat if it's in their interests. That's the thanks Telltale gives the adventure game community who helped build them up.
I'm one former Telltale supporter who will not feel bad if the upcoming Telltale interactive movie non-games are huge flops.
Oh, and why has Telltale almost never released a game based on original material?
Telltale's motto: "We seek out franchises with the biggest fan bases possible, then we apply our interactive movie formula to the material. If you want original and new and fresh, go to Double Fine. We don't do original. We draw our inspiration from the early 1980's Dragon's Lair."
When it comes to Tim Schafer, Gilbert and Dave Grossman, many have said that it's not hard to see who was, and who wasn't, the real creative brains behind Day of the Tentacle and Monkey Island. Now, I don't want to speak ill of anyone, even though Grossman and Connors have put down adventure games and those who are making actual adventure games, but I can see why people have thought this for a while now.
If there was an adventure game franchise I loved, the last people I'd want getting exclusive rights to it is Telltale Games.
If there was an adventure game franchise I loved, the last people I'd want getting exclusive rights to it is Telltale Games.
Yes. Right now I feel the same. But I remember when they annonced ToMI and I instantly preordered it and thought: This is the most exciting day in my life. Something changed. Today I'd be really worried.
I think the biggest problem we had with Telltale Games is expectation. We expected Dave Grossman and Mike Stemmle, who worked on the Monkey Island series for LucasArts, to care about classic adventure games and to be loyal to their fanbase.
We expected, because TTG's first developed games were from classic adventure game franchises, that they would devote themselves to be the leaders in the industry to usher in a new golden age of adventure games.
We expected that Dan Connors' only having worked on one adventure game prior to TTG [ie. Sam & Max:Hit the Road (source here and here)] would not speak anything to whether he would be loyal specifically to fans of that game by forever continuing to make more like it.
For myself, now that my expectations of TTG have changed to no longer include these things; and now that I better understand their intent, not to ruin the classic adventure game genre, but rather to themselves focus primarily on story... I'm now no longer mad at them. Perhaps I'm still disappointed that they are not all of these things which we originally expected of them, but I'm not furiously disenchanted like I used to be.
Suffice it to say that they will make the games that they want to make instead of just what I want them to make, and I don't begrudge them anymore for it becuse there really are other companies out there making good classic adventure games.
Now... that being said, these forums are still my primary hangout for community on the net, and if Telltale changes the forums to be a Reddit clone I'm likely to give up and move my presence to Double Fine.
I love TWD and it was my first telltale game but i also pursached BTTF and Poker night 1 and 2 and i really enjoyed those games . I know TWD fanbase has screwd the forums up a bit. Cause TWD fans only Bitch and Moan about episode release date instead of having fun to any of the harcore TTG fans im sorry TWD screwd these forums
Yes. Right now I feel the same. But I remember when they annonced ToMI and I instantly preordered it and thought: This is the most exciting day in my life. Something changed. Today I'd be really worried.
Simple cause and effect.
Telltale makes games true to the chosen license.
That definitely means: Telltale picks up traditional adventure game license >>> Telltale makes traditional adventure game.
Telltale choses to not make traditional adventure game >>> Telltale drops traditional adventure game license.
That's all there is. Yet the equation
Telltale doesn't make traditional adventures >>> Telltale can't make traditional adventures
that keeps popping up is downright stupid very very debatable.
That definitely means: Telltale picks up traditional adventure game license >>> Telltale makes traditional adventure game.
Telltale choses to not make traditional adventure game >>> Telltale drops traditional adventure game license.
That's all there is. Yet the equation
Telltale doesn't make traditional adventures >>> Telltale can't make traditional adventures
that keeps popping up is downright stupid very very debatable.
It's not the licenses they pick up, it's the tone of that interview Dan Connors did. They (or, at least, the ones in power) appear to have no interest in making traditional adventure games. That's very different from not being able to with the franchises they have or that they are able to pick up. They have proved they are capable on both.
When it comes to Tim Schafer, Gilbert and Dave Grossman, many have said that it's not hard to see who was, and who wasn't, the real creative brains behind Day of the Tentacle and Monkey Island.
Who exactly has been saying this? Grossman is well known for his work on Monkey Island and DOTT, and I hardly think it's appropriate to retroactively stop appreciating what he contributed to those classics.
Telltale picks up traditional adventure game license >>> Telltale makes traditional adventure game.
Telltale choses to not make traditional adventure game >>> Telltale drops traditional adventure game license.
That's all there is. Yet the equation
Telltale doesn't make traditional adventures >>> Telltale can't make traditional adventures
that keeps popping up is downright stupid very very debatable.
As I said, it's due to lack of meeting expectation. We want them to make adventure games, and when they don't we assert that they can't anymore, when really it's just that they don't want to.
Therefore, once our expectations of them change (I said change, not lower), we can come to appreciate what they're doing with their games.
...oh. Except for the feelies. Don't buy TTG's feelies because you're bound to be paying for a restaurant napkin that has an iron-on decal affixed to it.
...oh. Except for the feelies. Don't buy TTG's feelies because you're bound to be paying for a restaurant napkin that has an iron-on decal affixed to it.
My Sam & Max Case File has something to say about that.
As I said, it's due to lack of meeting expectation. We want them to make adventure games, and when they don't we assert that they can't anymore, when really it's just that they don't want to.
That's exactly it. And when we search for a reason why this is done by the fan base of the traditional adventure game, the answer pretty obviously is...
Yeah, the Sam & Max case files were good, but the ToMI "treasure chest" was an extreme let down in comparison.
The Jurassic Park deluxe edition was also pretty cool. All the feelies inside were of nice quality and even the shipping box was made to look like an InGen new employee kit. It's just a shame that the game disc in the bottom wasn't as nice as the big layer of feelies on top.
The Jurassic Park deluxe edition was also pretty cool. All the feelies inside were of nice quality and even the shipping box was made to look like an InGen new employee kit. It's just a shame that the game disc in the bottom wasn't as nice as the big layer of feelies on top.
The Back to the Future one was as well, with the box made up to be from the Hill Valley Preservation Society. Plus, I quite liked the deluxe cover (with Marty, Doc, and young Doc in BTTF III poster style) better than the standard one.
The Tales of Monkey Island deluxe edition was really the only one people had problems with (mostly because of the flimsy map, and because of the slip-over cover), but I even liked that one to be honest (I quite liked the slipcover because it was a throwback to the paper dolls that were made for the first Monkey Island).
Telltale admitted that they found feelies to be a pain to administer, but I can't help thinking that back in the day they could have farmed them out to enthusiatic fans. That wouldn't happen now.
(Also, I can't listen to the Sam & Max mini-CD any more. All I've got is side-loading CD drives )
Well, there still are 'feelies' from Telltale, but they're not available in the store any more. Of course, while one game is hyped, it makes sense to give out bonus feelies for it, like the Clementine hat. Keepin them available in a store for the duration of 'the foreseeable future'... that's a different thing.
Man, there is such a bias out there against more traditional style point and click games. It seems like it's trendy to bash these games for having anything but a super simplified interface and very easy puzzles.
Given this, it was Telltale's constant talk of "evolving" or "fixing" a supposed "broken" genre that really ticked me off. Felt like they were kicking a genre when it was down and doing it in a self-serving way, then pretending to be its savior. This, more than Telltale's direction away from traditional style adventures and towards interactive movies (ok, fine, they want to do new things) is what REALLY irritated me.
I am fine with their direction, since there are others making adventure games, but I'm not fine with how they have presented their change of direction to the gaming news media and to customers. It seems they've been quite effective at convincing many in gaming journalism that traditional point and clicks are dead. More than any other company Telltale has fostered and furthered negative feelings toward traditional adventure games.
I understand this thread is about Telltale's direction, but I feel like you need to also talk about the direction of adventure gaming as a whole and also the unfortunate bias against adventure games that aren't Telltale-style interactive movies. It's all related. You have people reviewing traditional style adventure games and bashing the games (but really bashing the genre), when they probably never enjoyed these kinds of games to begin with.
Look, I am a big KQ fan. Think of how it was for us. Telltale got the license then started on about how they wanted to move on from supposedly "old" style and niche to mainstream pop culture and without any of that supposedly irritating adventure gamey puzzle stuff that people used to play. They were so dismissive about KQ, an icon of traditional adventure game. (Don't forget that KQ sold over 7 million copies)
It felt like Telltale wasn't showing respect to these classics. It felt they were insulting such games. Was hard to square that with their "we're the heirs to the adventure game legacy" malarkey.
Telltale used to act like they were carrying on the spirit of true adventure gaming, and now it feels like they're throwing away their old customers without much concern. Boy, are we really that disposable? Are we really that insignificant?
If you think I'm exaggerating, just look at how they said nothing about KQ for a long time, ignoring fans, then announced the cancelation like it was nothing. It felt cruel, I'm telling you! Haha. It became kind of funny after awhile waiting for them to acknowledge KQ and its fans.
Btw, I write all these comments from my phone using dictation, so don't expect masterpieces!
Given this, it was Telltale's constant talk of [...] "fixing" a supposed "broken" genre that really ticked me off. [...] It seems they've been quite effective at convincing many in gaming journalism that traditional point and clicks are dead.
This does not only border on delusion. These claims take the hurdle with a swift leap and safely arrive in the conspiracy theory realm of the 'eats babies' paradigm.
This does not only border on delusion. These claims take the hurdle with a swift leap and safely arrive in the conspiracy theory realm of the 'eats babies' paradigm.
You're trying too hard to sound witty and to dismiss how I feel about what Telltale reps have said the last few years. Is "snarky" the only mode you post in? Maybe you need help finding your "snark off" switch. It's exhausting and tiresome after awhile.
Anyway, you're entitled to your incorrect opinion, but I know what I've read. It is clear the message that was being sent: traditional adventure games are flawed and are in need of fixing and evolving; we are the future of adventure gaming. In doing this, Telltale helped popularize the (sometimes unfair) complaints about traditional adventure games. They didn't create the criticisms, but they made them a lot more commonplace.
It is a real problem. Traditional point and clicks face a disadvantage from the get go due to the negative connotations associated with them. You have people who never really played or enjoyed these games knowing what they're "supposed" to say about them and what the popular complaints are.
As I said, it's due to lack of meeting expectation. We want them to make adventure games, and when they don't we assert that they can't anymore, when really it's just that they don't want to.
I say they couldn't make inspired, amazing adventure games even IF they wanted to. They get no benefit of the doubt from me!
Anyway, it's not easy making a truly great adventure game with challenging gameplay.
You're trying too hard to sound witty and to dismiss how I feel about what Telltale reps have said the last few years. Is "snarky" the only mode you post in? Maybe you need help finding your "snark off" switch. It's exhausting and tiresome after awhile.
You're trying too hard to construct factual sounding allegations out of what effectively only is "a feeling" on your side. We might be better served if you sticked to facts instead of making up your own reality. What we're trying to find here is your "alternate reality off" switch here, because that's the exceedingly exhausting and tiresome thing.
Comments
Not very. I loved Portal 2. Nowhere near as much as I loved Portal, though. The gel was a cool addition and I still put it as one of my favourite games. Just people who seem to like it more than the first do so because of how it was much more of a production, which is what I didn't like about it. I loved Portal because it was just a small project that a small group in Valve was working on. They didn't expect anything from it, which is why they just stuck it in the Orange Box. That's what I loved about it and made it my favourite game. It was the perfect length and the perfect difficulty. It was funny and had great characters. Don't get me wrong, Portal 2's characters were great, too. Cave and Wheatley were amazingly well done, but I preferred it when it was just you and GLaDOS (and Companion Cube). Problem is, Portal will never be able to be a small project again since it became such an enormous hit. Which is why, though I might foam at the mouth at mention of a Portal sequel, I'll never expect any of them to reach the level of the first in my book.
Ironically, I remember a few Adventure Game websites Adventure Gamers, and Just Adventures IIRC, praising the Thief games (First Person Sneakers) as having the atmospheric and production values of the best Adventure games. What with the exploration, and slow-paced development of the story (having to find letters, and books etc), without relying on too much action.
http://betax1.justadventure.com/reviews/Thief/Thief_Gold.shtm
http://betax1.justadventure.com/reviews/Thief/Thief.shtm
But it seemed to be the kind of game that would be outside of styles an Adventure Game website would usually review.
OF course Dishonored makes partially similar gameplay, but makes it far more frenetic... Even trying to keep to pure stealth, non-kill requires some acrobatic quick movements to succeed.
Thief 4 may be going that same direction.
I can only pick on examples I've personally played. Text Adventures, Leisure Suit Larry in the Land of the Lounge Lizards (AGI version), Escape from Monkey Island and Grim Fandango all have no mouse support and yet fit into Classic. LSL1-6 can all be played easily without a mouse (SMI and MI2 can be too but it's a faff). LOOM is not inventory-based and yet probably falls within Classic territory. Heavy Rain had choices that influenced your game much more than in TWD and yet had Action elements rather than inventory elements. I'm guessing Fables will be both inventory based and choice tree based. S&M Season 3 saw a dramatic shift away from inventory-based gameplay. Where would you put that? Indiana Jones had different story based on decisions made in dialogue and had Action elements. Many of the earlier Graphic Adventures (even as far as MI2!) had pixel hunting, which is the only gameplay element in Hidden Object games, so where do you put the lines? Looks a bit flimsy to me, this pigeonholing.
- Classic Adventure
- Story Adventure, aka Cinematic Adventure (just thought of that, much better name for it)
- Puzzle Adventure
The whole Failed Adventure thing was me taking a dig at Hidden Object games, so forget about that one.
Heavy Rain is obviously a Cinematic Adventure, while Sam & Max: TDP is still Classic, though you can see elements of Cinematic creeping in. As for those earlier games you mention... I'd need an example or two to really see what you mean.
That is to say, a game can be more cinematic in this way while more classic in that, while another is considered cinematic for different reasons.
Kind of like a math problem. X + Y + Z = "Adventure"
Where the values are individually graded on a scale.
For this scenario, let's give "cinematic" values on each scale for each variable a negative numerical value; while "classic" values for each variable have a positive numerical value. Also, if we consider each aspect to be more or less important to the equation, we might instead write the equation as something like 2x + 1.5y + z = "Adventure"
In this case, if "Adventure" equals a negative numerical value, it is cinematic. If it has a positive numerical value, it is classic.
EDIT: Also, maybe it could be said that if "adventure" has a given value close enough to zero, it is then a Puzzle Adventure; where the overall value of "adventure" is affected by how the values of "puzzle" and "story" relate to each other.
Well, he was like "those are stupid classifications because this classic game is that way and that cinematic game is this way"; and I was thinking "no, it depends on how each part combines and interacts with each other".
With that in mind, someone else can feel free to come along and turn it into a chemistry lesson instead of an algebra problem.
Fair enough.
SMI: Makeshift posts for the bundles of rope; bananas in fruit bowl; loose floorboard; room exits in the caves.
MI2: Ash-2-Life; string; the gags in the International House of Mojo and in the odds shop; explosives storage; room where the BW chest lands while it's dark; coin return; trash can (once Guybrush is standing in front of it); syringe drawer.
Your algebra works while there are only two variables. As soon as you have a third, you have to rate each (eg. out of 10 or & composition) and go for the variable with the highest value.
What's more disappointing than the fact that they've decided to stop making adventure games (as I consider them; you are free to disagree) is the way the company's image and culture have changed. There was a time when Telltale Games represented, to me, the hope that game developers didn't have to be cold and indifferent to their fans. They listened, they interacted, they were incredibly responsive to our every concern. Actual devs posted on the forums. When I had a problem, I told old-tyme TTG rep Emily and she went so far out of her way to help me that I was amazed, and I told her so in an email.
Here's what I said:
I want to say that you guys are fantastic, and not just for keeping the adventure genre alive with some really great games (although certainly that!). The way Telltale does... well, everything impresses me, from customer service (When the first sam and max DVD came out, I didn't have a DVD-ROM drive... you guys sent me a CD-ROM even though I was the only one with this issue, and still sent me the DVD to boot!) to giving the people what they want (Around the time TT formed, the cries for Sam and Max were everywhere, and you brought us Sam and Max. Almost as incessant were the demands for Monkey Island, and although it must have taken a lot of doing, now you've done that too). You guys really listen to and communicate with your fans, and I really appreciate it. Even in press releases and on the website, where most game companies would use stilted PR speak, Telltale communicates in a way that immediately sets a gamer like me at ease - "don't worry, man, we get it."
Boy, was I ever a satisfied customer. To me, Telltale seems to no longer be the sort of company I was talking about there - now they're like most game companies, which disappoints me. Plenty of people like their new games and I honestly wish them success, but I won't be paying much attention anymore.
Those were good times man...
I guess now that Walking Dead is a huge hit, Telltale doesn't need or want those of us who made the company a success in the first place anymore. CEO Dan Connors has made it crystal clear that there is no room in his company's future for traditional adventure games. For the record, I am well aware that Telltale doesn't owe me anything - I bought their games, I enjoyed their games, that's a fair transaction. But for me (and I doubt I'm the only one) it really sucks.
This is exactly how I feel. Moving away from actual adventure games and towards interactive movie non-games is one thing, but the way Telltale reps repeatedly insult the adventure game genre that is finally making a comeback thanks in large part to Kickstarter really makes me sick. Telltale never did much good for the adventure game genre, anyway. They just tried to suck all remaining life out of popular, existing adventure brands, then tried to convince us all, in a self-serving way, that adventure games as we have known and loved them are over and done with and that interactive movies are the future. What was pathetic was how, for a while, many in the gaming press actually went along with this self-serving PR talking point of theirs.
Telltale people will say they love adventure games when it suits them, but will turn their backs on the adventure game community in a heartbeat if it's in their interests. That's the thanks Telltale gives the adventure game community who helped build them up.
I'm one former Telltale supporter who will not feel bad if the upcoming Telltale interactive movie non-games are huge flops.
Oh, and why has Telltale almost never released a game based on original material?
Telltale's motto: "We seek out franchises with the biggest fan bases possible, then we apply our interactive movie formula to the material. If you want original and new and fresh, go to Double Fine. We don't do original. We draw our inspiration from the early 1980's Dragon's Lair."
When it comes to Tim Schafer, Gilbert and Dave Grossman, many have said that it's not hard to see who was, and who wasn't, the real creative brains behind Day of the Tentacle and Monkey Island. Now, I don't want to speak ill of anyone, even though Grossman and Connors have put down adventure games and those who are making actual adventure games, but I can see why people have thought this for a while now.
If there was an adventure game franchise I loved, the last people I'd want getting exclusive rights to it is Telltale Games.
Yes. Right now I feel the same. But I remember when they annonced ToMI and I instantly preordered it and thought: This is the most exciting day in my life. Something changed. Today I'd be really worried.
I think the biggest problem we had with Telltale Games is expectation. We expected Dave Grossman and Mike Stemmle, who worked on the Monkey Island series for LucasArts, to care about classic adventure games and to be loyal to their fanbase.
We expected, because TTG's first developed games were from classic adventure game franchises, that they would devote themselves to be the leaders in the industry to usher in a new golden age of adventure games.
We expected that Dan Connors' only having worked on one adventure game prior to TTG [ie. Sam & Max:Hit the Road (source here and here)] would not speak anything to whether he would be loyal specifically to fans of that game by forever continuing to make more like it.
For myself, now that my expectations of TTG have changed to no longer include these things; and now that I better understand their intent, not to ruin the classic adventure game genre, but rather to themselves focus primarily on story... I'm now no longer mad at them. Perhaps I'm still disappointed that they are not all of these things which we originally expected of them, but I'm not furiously disenchanted like I used to be.
Suffice it to say that they will make the games that they want to make instead of just what I want them to make, and I don't begrudge them anymore for it becuse there really are other companies out there making good classic adventure games.
Now... that being said, these forums are still my primary hangout for community on the net, and if Telltale changes the forums to be a Reddit clone I'm likely to give up and move my presence to Double Fine.
Simple cause and effect.
Telltale makes games true to the chosen license.
That definitely means:
Telltale picks up traditional adventure game license >>> Telltale makes traditional adventure game.
Telltale choses to not make traditional adventure game >>> Telltale drops traditional adventure game license.
That's all there is. Yet the equation
Telltale doesn't make traditional adventures >>> Telltale can't make traditional adventures
that keeps popping up is downright stupid very very debatable.
It's not the licenses they pick up, it's the tone of that interview Dan Connors did. They (or, at least, the ones in power) appear to have no interest in making traditional adventure games. That's very different from not being able to with the franchises they have or that they are able to pick up. They have proved they are capable on both.
That's my point, yeah.
Who exactly has been saying this? Grossman is well known for his work on Monkey Island and DOTT, and I hardly think it's appropriate to retroactively stop appreciating what he contributed to those classics.
Therefore, once our expectations of them change (I said change, not lower), we can come to appreciate what they're doing with their games.
...oh. Except for the feelies. Don't buy TTG's feelies because you're bound to be paying for a restaurant napkin that has an iron-on decal affixed to it.
My Sam & Max Case File has something to say about that.
Yeah, the Sam & Max case files were good, but the ToMI "treasure chest" was an extreme let down in comparison.
That's exactly it. And when we search for a reason why this is done by the fan base of the traditional adventure game, the answer pretty obviously is...
...as some kind of 'punishment'. :rolleyes:
The Jurassic Park deluxe edition was also pretty cool. All the feelies inside were of nice quality and even the shipping box was made to look like an InGen new employee kit. It's just a shame that the game disc in the bottom wasn't as nice as the big layer of feelies on top.
The Tales of Monkey Island deluxe edition was really the only one people had problems with (mostly because of the flimsy map, and because of the slip-over cover), but I even liked that one to be honest (I quite liked the slipcover because it was a throwback to the paper dolls that were made for the first Monkey Island).
(Also, I can't listen to the Sam & Max mini-CD any more. All I've got is side-loading CD drives
Given this, it was Telltale's constant talk of "evolving" or "fixing" a supposed "broken" genre that really ticked me off. Felt like they were kicking a genre when it was down and doing it in a self-serving way, then pretending to be its savior. This, more than Telltale's direction away from traditional style adventures and towards interactive movies (ok, fine, they want to do new things) is what REALLY irritated me.
I am fine with their direction, since there are others making adventure games, but I'm not fine with how they have presented their change of direction to the gaming news media and to customers. It seems they've been quite effective at convincing many in gaming journalism that traditional point and clicks are dead. More than any other company Telltale has fostered and furthered negative feelings toward traditional adventure games.
I understand this thread is about Telltale's direction, but I feel like you need to also talk about the direction of adventure gaming as a whole and also the unfortunate bias against adventure games that aren't Telltale-style interactive movies. It's all related. You have people reviewing traditional style adventure games and bashing the games (but really bashing the genre), when they probably never enjoyed these kinds of games to begin with.
This makes me sad, to be honest.
Very well said. This is exactly how I feel.
Look, I am a big KQ fan. Think of how it was for us. Telltale got the license then started on about how they wanted to move on from supposedly "old" style and niche to mainstream pop culture and without any of that supposedly irritating adventure gamey puzzle stuff that people used to play. They were so dismissive about KQ, an icon of traditional adventure game. (Don't forget that KQ sold over 7 million copies)
It felt like Telltale wasn't showing respect to these classics. It felt they were insulting such games. Was hard to square that with their "we're the heirs to the adventure game legacy" malarkey.
Telltale used to act like they were carrying on the spirit of true adventure gaming, and now it feels like they're throwing away their old customers without much concern. Boy, are we really that disposable? Are we really that insignificant?
If you think I'm exaggerating, just look at how they said nothing about KQ for a long time, ignoring fans, then announced the cancelation like it was nothing. It felt cruel, I'm telling you! Haha. It became kind of funny after awhile waiting for them to acknowledge KQ and its fans.
Btw, I write all these comments from my phone using dictation, so don't expect masterpieces!
This does not only border on delusion. These claims take the hurdle with a swift leap and safely arrive in the conspiracy theory realm of the 'eats babies' paradigm.
You're trying too hard to sound witty and to dismiss how I feel about what Telltale reps have said the last few years. Is "snarky" the only mode you post in? Maybe you need help finding your "snark off" switch. It's exhausting and tiresome after awhile.
Anyway, you're entitled to your incorrect opinion, but I know what I've read. It is clear the message that was being sent: traditional adventure games are flawed and are in need of fixing and evolving; we are the future of adventure gaming. In doing this, Telltale helped popularize the (sometimes unfair) complaints about traditional adventure games. They didn't create the criticisms, but they made them a lot more commonplace.
It is a real problem. Traditional point and clicks face a disadvantage from the get go due to the negative connotations associated with them. You have people who never really played or enjoyed these games knowing what they're "supposed" to say about them and what the popular complaints are.
I say they couldn't make inspired, amazing adventure games even IF they wanted to. They get no benefit of the doubt from me!
Anyway, it's not easy making a truly great adventure game with challenging gameplay.
You're trying too hard to construct factual sounding allegations out of what effectively only is "a feeling" on your side. We might be better served if you sticked to facts instead of making up your own reality. What we're trying to find here is your "alternate reality off" switch here, because that's the exceedingly exhausting and tiresome thing.
Especialy if it's one of those alternate relates where the hero's are evil and rule the world.