...I will never forgive him for Alien: Resurrection. I know the Studio and Weaver had a lot of influence on the story, but he always defended it, so who knows. That movie was just overflowing with shit. The movie will have to be absolutely spectacular for me to even want him to write anything. He has yet to redeem himself in my eyes. Everyone loving The Avengers isn't helping. I tend not to overly enjoy these big action films.
...I will never forgive him for Alien: Resurrection. I know the Studio and Weaver had a lot of influence on the story, but he always defended it, so who knows. That movie was just overflowing with shit. The movie will have to be absolutely spectacular for me to even want him to write anything. He has yet to redeem himself in my eyes.
I agree 100%. Everybody seems to be raving about Joss Whedon's 'The Cabin In The Woods'. Even though I find the premise intriguing, I flat out refuse to watch it on the grounds that Whedon brutally raped the 'Alien' franchise and dragged its once glorious self through the mud.
FUCK WHEDON
FUCK ANDERSON
FUCK THE BROTHERS STRAUSE
Hell have no Fiorna-'Fury'-161 like an 'Alien' fan scorned.
Everyone loving The Avengers isn't helping. I tend not to overly enjoy these big action films.
Ditto. In all honesty, it annoys me no small amount that overblown popcorn-munching flicks are so adored by the masses and are endlessly discussed within film forums. I couldn't care less about such movies and I completely fail to understand their appeal. EXPLOSIONS!!! Big whoop! Give me character development and a subtle approach any day of the week.
Even though I was not swept away by the Avengers myself, it's got both.
Indeed. There's a nice section in the middle of the film (that drags on a bit too long IMO) where there's practically nothing BUT character development. Black Widow especially, but it's there for everyone else too.
Even though I was not swept away by the Avengers myself, it's got both.
I absolutely disagree.
I'm sorry, but there is nothing even remotely subtle about
opening a massive space hole to induce a seemingly endless fight sequence against giant metal space bugs. There is nothing subtle about the extremely forced and inevitable mid-film "Team fights each other before ultimately teaming up because Friendship and Teamwork are Special". There is nothing subtle about Hulk Smash. This movie has no subtlety at all.
As for character development? Loki is where he as in the last movie, just performed better this time around(almost by default). Thor doesn't grow in any way whatsoever. Tony Stark spends the entire movie throwing out gags and ultimately acting like he's in an Iron Man movie that features these guys as part of the secondary cast, but the movie itself doesn't focus on actual character development on his part. Captain America gets EXTREMELY little time given that he's time-displaced by 50 years.
Hulk develops, but that's pretty much by default. He had nowhere to go but up. He got about half the development he should have gotten in his solo film, so he steals the show with his "I tried to shoot myself" bit. In fact, now that I think about it, the past tense in that statement pretty much embodies the Hulk's development. He seems like he's developed to us, the audience, but it's not due to anything that is happening in the movie. He has developed since his solo movie, but it was entirely during the events of some phantom Incredible Hulk 2 that we never saw.
Tony Stark has a full character arc of going from being a single showman super-hero to being willing to work in a team and sacrifice himself for 'greater good'.
Hulk has a small arc of accepting 'the other guy' inside himself, which concludes with the the security guy conversation.
Thor doesn't have a character arc in the movie, yes. Neither do Black Widow and Hawkeye, but the two do have nice character moments which delve deeper into who they really are.
Captain America's got signs of what could be a character arc, but is never fully played out. Supposedly there's 30 minutes of deleted footage most of which focus on Captain America. Maybe that's why. Though, to be honest, Captain America is an extremely boring character, the only way to make him a little bit more interesting is to challenge his 'patriotism' and all the goody-two-shoes characteristics and whatnot. Which kinda happens in the movie but is not exactly delved too deep into, so he doesn't really have any character development and is still kinda 'meh'
Avengers is not a king of subtlety, but it does have a lot of subtle moments.
This movie is great. It has a good mix between comedy and action with my 2 favourite characters being Iron Man and Hulk because cause of how funny they were in this movie (To be fair i am a fan of Iron Man's character since Iron Man) One of my favourite moments was when
When Hulk and Thor are finished fighting some enemies towards the end of the movie and after they beat them. Hulk just punches Thor for no reason
and again Iron Man is always great.
My top 3 Marvel characters
3.Fantastic Four
2.Iron Man
1.Spider-Man
I totally agree with your score.
I think Hulk punched Thor as kind of a continuation from their fight on the helicarrier. And it was also the perfect time for a bit of comedy. The same as when Loki told Hulk that he would not be bullied around and Hulk just started beating him into the floor.
I also liked that Tony was willing to sacrifice himself for the greater good. Stark pre-Iron Man 2 would not have done that.
Oh look, Dashing is throwing out awful generalizations again. Ooh, look at us. We HATE the popular thing. We're so smart and cool. Oooooh.
Wow! Disliking something that's extremely popular is hardly tantamount to trying to "fit in" or "be cool", nor is it an attempt to be "alternative". It's entirely possible for somebody to genuinely dislike something that the general masses adore; do you enjoy listening to 'The Spice Girls'? If not, then you're a terrible hypocrite.
Hey, I just said that I tend not to enjoy these big action films. I have nothing against popularity. I enjoyed Avatar damn it. I know it's a rip-off but damn-it, I enjoyed it. Screw you all :P Then again, I also enjoy crap horror films(especially 80s) so what do I know.
Oh look, Dashing is throwing out awful generalizations again. Ooh, look at us. We HATE the popular thing. We're so smart and cool. Oooooh.
Of all the people I know, you're probably one of the last from whom I'd expect this particular betrayal.
There are a lot of things you can think about my thoughts on The Avengers. You can think they're wrong. You can think they're poorly thought out. You can think they use poor methodology, are missing core points, that they are based on unfair biases or perceptions or unrealistic expectations. You can think I thought too much or too little. There are a lot of things you can disagree with my thoughts on this matter that wouldn't leave me feeling personally slighted. There are a lot of ways you could go about this which wouldn't emotionally hurt.
This is not one of those.
Yes, I am a person who desperately wants to be liked. Disliking things that are widely enjoyed is nowhere close to being the likability magnet it is portrayed to be. I get shit for almost everything I enjoy and even more shit for the things I don't. The number of people who give me shit about trying to be cool for shit like this far outnumber the people who think I'm "cool" for going against the grain. This is partly because I get shit from everyone from my family to my closest friends to complete strangers for my thoughts and opinions, but mostly because there honestly isn't anyone who has come to think I'm cool for any sort of perceived unrestrained individuality. Fuck, of everyone I know, you are probably the closest person to that sort of thing, if only because you're the only person I've known who has consistently listened to me go off on these odd and obscure things that I enjoy in an engaged way.
This is not something I enjoy doing. I don't like feeling that I don't understand what people see in popular things that makes them amazing. I don't like that there's a communal euphoria that I simply cannot fully participate in. I don't like that I seem to constantly be drifting away from just about everyone I know because my search for things I can truly and deeply enjoy leads me farther and farther away from actual people. I don't like that every time I even graze the topic of movies with my parents, I get everything from "Why do they charge the same as they do for a movie where they didn't exclude the sound and color?" to "Why can't you just like normal movies made here where people speak english?". I don't like that when I go on opening day to see a movie I've been excited about for months, I am often finding myself alone, in an empty theater. I don't like that whenever I talk about a movie that I like, people feel it's perfectly okay to say it looks weird and stupid and that there's something wrong with people who could possibly enjoy a thing like that, but if I dare to take something that I have actually seen that is fairly popular and make even the slightest negative remark about it, even if I actually enjoyed the overall experience, suddenly I've committed some sort of crime or something is wrong with me or I'm pulling some sort of fucking con. I don't like that it is like pulling teeth to get my family to see a movie that I've been excited about for months with me on my birthday, that came out on my birthday. I don't like that, when they cave and watch this film with me, I then get all sorts of shit for it after the movie is over. I don't like that I still get shit over it. I don't like that while that film was my favorite of the past year, that it filled me with the sort of joy I haven't felt in a movie theater in years, I ultimately wish that I hadn't tried to share it with my family because it has frankly been entirely hurtful in the long run. I don't like that, as the son of divorced parents, one of the few things they agree on is that I should "shut up and enjoy normal movies."
Disparaging my opinions on The Avengers is perfectly fine. Disparaging my resolve, telling me that I've caved to some sort of pressure to be liked rather than being anything close to genuine, that hits me where it hurts the most. Because yes, I desperately want approval, yes I desperately wish that more people would like me, yes I wish there was some easy and well carved-out niche that I could insert myself into so that I could be liked. That is the force that makes it extremely hard to feel like I should, like I can, actually express my thoughts on not only this movie but any number of others.
The desire to be liked is what pushes me to follow my parents' advice and "just shut up and enjoy normal movies." I can't say that my opinion is "right", I can't say that it's smart, and I can't say that I arrived at it without ever hitting some sort of weird mental roadblock along the way, not with any sort of certainty. I can't even say with any certainty that there isn't something wrong with my brain, that I'm not messed up emotionally, that I relate to things the way normal people do. I can't say that I truly understand or know anything about movies at all, I can't say that I respect my own thoughts and opinions, I can't say that I don't often find myself falling into a deep and depressed emotional state because after being told over and over and over again by so many people that not only are my thoughts weird, stupid, or even outright wrong, but that they're also opinions that I can't actually have and that instead I must be parroting them out to further some sort of long-game end goal, that eventually I start to believe that something there is right and that there is something deeply and truly wrong with me that needs to be fixed.
The only thing I can say entirely for certain is that if I was acting in a way that coincided with the end goal of being liked at the cost of my own integrity, this is not what I would be doing.
The popularity comment was aimed at Johro and Davies, but that didn't come through, so it doesn't really matter. I'm just saying it because- it was. It was a stupid comment, and I should be the last person to make it. But this is the first movie I can think of- outside of the first Pirates movie- where it truly baffles me that anyone can hate it because of the fact that so many don't. This isn't like Transformers where most people with a brain admit it's tacky and tasteless and awful, or Avatar where some people hate it because it's a ripoff trying to look original. I'm not making the argument that it's good because it's popular. I'm making the argument that thinking people have agreed on its merits. This is more akin to Alien and Raiders where people are calling this movie a classic, and meaning it with conviction. I read one guy say this movie replaced Raiders on his list of favorite movies. It's fine to hate it, yeah, but doing so baffles me in light of all of this. Nobody ever replaced Raiders with Transformers or Avatar. NOBODY. It feels like there's no real rhyme or reason to the hate. The only real solid arguments I've really seen are "Joss Whedon sucks" and "It's just a dumb popcorn movie", neither of which cut it with me. So all that I am left with is "trying to be cool", "trying to be popular", or "I can't understand why this person doesn't like this because I haven't seen them give another reason". I admit I wouldn't replace Raiders with Avengers, and I don't agree with that, but the fact that someone did it puts this movie on a whole nother level than truly dumb popcorn movies like Transformers and GI Joe and Expendables. If it really is stupid and terrible and I'm wrong, fine. That also means the entire world has gone literally mad.
Dashing, I don't think you're saying anything to be popular, for the reasons you listed. Of course I know better. I should have made this clearer. It's my fault. My post was acting out of anger, over-emotion, and frustration like many of my posts tend to. I was frustrated with Davies and Johro, and I was mad at you. I came on here and read your post, and immediately I see the same generalizations I tried to argue against and put to rest. Generalizations I made good arguments against. Logical arguments. I had a logical stance, and you entirely ignored it. We already talked about how I've felt people ignore my opinions and don't give a shit about my stances. Well, to me, this was just another instance of that. I got pissed. I mean, I don't know why you would listen to me- my name doesn't begin and end with a D. Hell, you do listen to me, but you don't have to agree with me. It's when my stance is perfectly logical that I can not understand it in any way, shape, or form.
You know I trust your opinions on EVERYTHING. If I bug you so much with so much shitty stuff all the time, it's only because I want your opinion and reaction on everything. Because I expect something worthwhile from you no matter what it is. I know you can't always have all the answers, and I know I get frustrated with you when you don't. I even LOOK UP TO YOU, even though I know you could never agree with such a sentiment. I always have. But that doesn't mean when I think you're wrong I'm going to lay down in your bed. I'm going to fight you tooth and nail. Well, fight is the wrong word. I'm going to argue your stance. I'm not always going to agree with you. You know this and you've never wanted it any other way. At the least I give everything you tell me about the benefit of the doubt and I enjoy most of it because there's always meaning and value behind it. That by itself shows that I respect you and value your opinions. We just had a discussion about how we're both alienated at times for our opinions, you much moreso than me on every level, a couple of days ago. I'm sorry I ruined that comradery with this. I'm sorry I hurt your feelings, especially because you of all people don't need that shit in your life. You're one of the most valuable friends I have- yeah I weighed you, you're extremely valuable. I wouldn't have the drive to explore things no one else would (Shaw Brothers silent era) if it wasn't for you. You're not a freak. You're passionate. Your parents are the worst kind of bigots. They stifle your passion for knowledge and experience with their shitty sentiments. I didn't really want to be in that category. Retro's wrong, I don't dangle my sausage over the bear cage, I leap into it headfirst slathered in blood and animal viscera. But it shouldn't come as any surprise. Burning bridges, losing friendships, and betraying people is what I've always been best at.
If you ask me, anyone that has a large amount of investment in the comic book is going to love these sort of movies.
(Well apart from the Hulk ones I guess)
People who go beyond that level of fandom, or aren't all that interested at all are going to nitpick at it.
(For totally different reasons of course!)
This discussions reminds me that I need to watch Firefly.
(Best friend keeps bugging me about it. I'm more of a surreal/absurdist comedy fan (Young Ones, Red Dwarf, The League of Gentlemen) than a science fiction fan, so I kind of keep putting it off to watch other things)
Wow. This thread got... really hard to read. Not because it didn't make sense, but because it was so heartfelt.
Here's the nitpicks I had with Avengers:
- Thor just shows up, and is given a brief one-line explanation of how he got around the whole 'no more travel between worlds' thing from his own movie. That was weak and needed FAR more explanation.
- The talking section in the middle of the movie goes on too long. I get why it's there, it just needs to be shorter.
- CAPTAIN AMERICA'S OUTFIT LOOKS SILLY. It's the red and white around the waist that ruins it. Couldn't they put those colours on his arms or something? Ugh.
- Who the hell are the [sic] Chitari? Why are they here? How come Loki's working with them? EXPLAIN!
- 'And We All Fall Down' at the end. Weak, though I do understand why they did it. Still weak though.
- Stark seemed a little too bummed out about Coulson
dying
. Why? He barely knew him. Captain America seemed to have more of a connection with him than anything else.
- The female waitress got a fraction too much screen time. I dunno, maybe that's just me.
- Hulk seemed to just turn up wherever the plot demanded. Running through a building? Jumping onto Stark Tower? How'd he get there? Why? Sure, they were great scenes, but there's no real logic behind them.
- Is it just me, or did Cap do very little in this film? Also, isn't this shortly after he wakes up? So he's thrust into this new world and everything's different to him? Weird that wasn't explored. Maybe in CapAm 2.
- Everything Iron Man says is a one-liner. They get old.
- For being the Trickster God, Loki goes down in a pretty undignified way.
- No War Machine? I get he's not an Avenger, but still... a mention of him would've been nice.
- Surely instead of Galaga it should have been... Space Invaders? Eh? Eh?
Random things I liked about the movie:
- The Hulk was voiced by Lou Ferrigno. Yes, yes, a thousand times YES.
- Brief mention of Jane Foster. Nice touch there. Shame Thor didn't call her or anything, but still nice.
- Hawkeye
survives
. And gets to do way more than anyone thought he would.
- ...I'm sure there's more, but I can't think of them of the top of my head.
So yeah, it's a good film, no doubt about that, and it's easily one of the best Superhero films we've had in years, but it's not perfect.
If you ask me, anyone that has a large amount of investment in the comic book is going to love these sort of movies.
(Well apart from the Hulk ones I guess)
People who go beyond that level of fandom, or aren't all that interested at all are going to nitpick at it.
(For totally different reasons of course!)
I've never read ANY of the comics and I enjoyed Avengers immensely. Though, I probably liked it for different reasons than a comic book fan would like it.
Essentially, I enjoy action movies/popcorn flicks or whatever when they are done well. I loathe straight-up action as it gets dull after awhile, but what I crave is an action movie where I feel immersed in it because I have some sort of attachment to the characters. Also humor. It's why my favorite action-y movies have always had good characterization and humor: Indiana Jones, Pirates of the Caribbean, original Star Wars, Die Hard...
Now Dashing, you mentioned no real character arcs. I agree with you partially. There wasn't a ton of character development in this film, but then again it wasn't particularly needed for the film. Most of the characters had their major character arcs in their solo films.
I did spot a few moments, though. We've got Captain America going from the guy who didn't understand what was going on to
having a few scenes at the end where he was acting as the team leader and directing all the others
. I thought this was a nice touch because as super heroes go, he seemed a bit underpowered compared to the others. Thor has absolutely nothing, but then again, he did have quite a change in his own movie. Neither did Hawkeye or Black Widow. Stark starts out as if he was just in another Iron Man movie with everyone else as supporting cast,
but by the end he's willing to sacrifice himself to save all the others and even takes orders from Captain America
. And then there's Banner/Hulk, but you already mentioned him.
I would hesitate to call these true arcs, but with so many main characters, having true arcs would have made this movie immensely long.
As to Darth Marsden, as a non-comic book fan, I got from the movie that the reason the
nuke to the Chitari made them all just stop functioning
was because that they were some sort of hive race that was controlled from that ship-thing. Or maybe I've been reading too much Ender's Game.
Captain america in the comics was the leader of the avengers but that had to be changed for this film; in the comics he's only frozen for 20 years. He's frozen in the mid 40's and unthawed in the mid 60's. He also starts fighting crime again upon being thawed prior to the avengers starting. In the current series he's displaced by 70 years and his next mission IS the avengers. He's still playing caveman in this film. Iron man is also the most experienced, he's had 2 films under his belt. Thor is a norse god who's only been to earth once, the Hulk can't even string a sentence together let alone lead.
This film is essentially a sequel for all the characters. And specifically one where the characters have developed between films. Banner now has the ability to deliberately hulk out (something brief from the first film). Cap is getting acclimated and Thor had only spent half a film in the real world. Iron Man does have the important arc of acting humble.
It was important to develop the strength of the alter egos; thor doesn't have one, he's the same person the entire time. But Tony Stark and Bruce Banner are both geniuses and use their intelligence together. Steve Rogers is pretty much the same as his alter ego minus the shield.
I agree that there should've been a little more on how Thor got back to Earth with the Bifrost destroyed, but then again...no one but Loki and Thor knew the Bifrost was gone. Sure Jane Foster and Selvig could have put 2 and 2 together, but for the most part, the rest of them probably didn't care.
Also,
I just read an interview with Clark Gregg(Agent Coulson) and he mentioned that he'd been hearing about Joss Whedon killing beloved characters and that he mentioned this to Joss and Gregg says that Joss said, "Don't worry. You're safe." Gregg also mentioned that he was in talks for Iron Man 3. Such a shame...
Also, can I just say that I did enjoy most of the trailers that showed before The Avengers in my town? Frankenweenie looks to be the typical Tim Burton-creepshow fare, but it IS also a story he's been wanting to tell again in a longer fashion. G.I. Joe 2...well, I didn't see the first one, and well...this trailer didn't really make me want to see the second either. The Expendables 2...another sequel I haven't seen the first movie yet, but it definitely looks like it's going to be a stupid, yet fun, action flick. Pixar's Brave...wow. I really like that Pixar is trying to show that it can do more than just Toy Story and Cars and Finding Nemo. Brave looks to be a lot of fun, and who knows? Maybe Billy Connolly's character will live through this one. The Amazing Spider-Man's trailer was...well, amazing. I was dead-set on hating this movie from the first time they said they were rebooting the franchise, but the trailers have really turned me around. My only gripe is...well, isn't the point of a secret identity supposed to be that it's a SECRET? And The Dark Knight Rises, of course. Wow. Definitely getting a sense that they're going to bash it into our heads that this is Nolan/Bale's LAST BATMAN MOVIE.
I just read an interview with Clark Gregg(Agent Coulson) and he mentioned that he'd been hearing about Joss Whedon killing beloved characters and that he mentioned this to Joss and Gregg says that Joss said, "Don't worry. You're safe." Gregg also mentioned that he was in talks for Iron Man 3. Such a shame...
Coulson's death was handled very smartly. We actually don't see him die, we see him lose consciousness (which is normal... not to mention, people in real life survived wounds worse than that). There's no body, there's the thing with the cards and Nick doesn't let Hill call in the staff medics... I'm not saying Coulson is alive, but I'm saying that his death WAS handled in a smart way and it will be absolutely believable if they bring him back.
Coulson's death was handled very smartly. We actually don't see him die, we see him lose consciousness (which is normal... not to mention, people in real life survived wounds worse than that). There's no body, there's the thing with the cards and Nick doesn't let Hill call in the staff medics... I'm not saying Coulson is alive, but I'm saying that his death WAS handled in a smart way and it will be absolutely believable if they bring him back.
Well, Fury has shown that he was totally willing to lie to get the "push" that he was looking for... It's possible. If this is the case, I imagine that some of them will be pretty pissed when they find out.
Well, Fury has shown that he was totally willing to lie to get the "push" that he was looking for... It's possible. If this is the case, I imagine that some of them will be pretty pissed when they find out.
I think it will be a mix of 'pissed off' with 'happy to know he's alive' if that will happen. However. There WAS a push already, so that won't destroy their team dynamics, it's not like they're gonna say 'Coulson is alive? Well, **** effectively working in a team then, let's fight each other again!' But that may lead to some conflicts with Fury, which, I think, could be a very interesting plot. And I think that is something that would suit a Captain America movie very well - Captain America NEEDS his values and trust in the country/government/superiors challenged to not be a stale and boring character.
Coulson's death was handled very smartly. We actually don't see him die, we see him lose consciousness (which is normal... not to mention, people in real life survived wounds worse than that). There's no body, there's the thing with the cards and Nick doesn't let Hill call in the staff medics... I'm not saying Coulson is alive, but I'm saying that his death WAS handled in a smart way and it will be absolutely believable if they bring him back.
I do believe that his eyes were still open when we heard that last gasp. Lose consciousness, eyes shut. But your eyes are still open when you die, unless you die in your sleep. But if he IS alive, then the guy most likely to be upset will be...Coulson. After all...Fury did bloody up his near mint condition cards. And was I the only one that wanted to smack Tony Stark for not realizing that Loki had planned to use STARK TOWER?! They even brought up Stark Tower, and none of them made the connection. *facepalm*
I do believe that his eyes were still open when we heard that last gasp. Lose consciousness, eyes shut.
Not necessarily. Some people lose consciousness with eyes open. Sometimes eyes are open and they roll up which looks really creepy. It all depends on the person and the situation.
And was I the only one that wanted to smack Tony Stark for not realizing that Loki had planned to use STARK TOWER?!
Well, it looked like Tony Stark wanted to smack himself, well, himself
Last watched a fan-edit of The Phantom Menace that basically turned it into an absolutely hilarious comedy. How? I present to you the trailer for The Ridiculous Menace.
Now imagine nearly two hours of that. It may sound like it's too much, but trust me - it's hilarious. 10/10.
(It's on FanEdit dot something if you want to grab it. No actual links - pretty sure that's against the rules)
Serious spoilers, but I doubt anyone cares about this movie, so I'm not going to bother with tags.
Good God, this movie was awful. I don't know why I went to go see it. I KNEW it would be awful and I still went to go see it. The plot seemed to be constructed simply to string together a series of scenes that had interesting special effects, with several bits of senseless destruction that I didn't even understand. There was some sort of thing about rebuilding the family business, but neither Barnabas nor the family seemed to know the first thing about setting up a business and we didn't really get to see much of that anyways because the plot seemed to revolve instead about a romance that didn't even make sense!
Seriously, we've got absolutely no motivation for this romance except that the girl kinda looks like the girl he used to be in love with. But we don't know why he was in love with the original girl so the whole thing seems kinda trivial. Neither the girl nor Barnabas ever shows anything that could remotely be construed as love. He even nearly forgets to save her at the end, preferring to cause senseless destruction and show no emotion at all while doing so. It was kinda like bad Twilight. Which shows how awful the love story was. I predict a new meme, Twilight: still a better love story than Dark Shadows.
There's also some sort of plotline where there's this bad father and his crazy son... but then the father just up and leaves so I guess that's the end of that plot? And there seems to be no real reason for Helen Bonham Carter. She's supposed to help psychoanalyze the kid and the family seems to spend a lot of money for her to do that, but all she ever seems to do is stagger around drunk when she isn't trying to seduce Barnabas. Or steal his blood. There was an obvious attempt at a sequel here, but I doubt anyone would ever go back for seconds on this.
Oh, and there's the girl stereotypical teen who acts like how everyone feels that stereotypical teen girls act. Somehow she's a werewolf because she was bitten as a baby... and how did her mother not know this? HOW? Wouldn't you notice if your infant turned into a miniature monster every full moon or something? Maybe she's just really unobservant or something.
Basically, the only reason I didn't give it a zero was because it was a fairly pretty movie and the first ten minutes or so were okay. There was a Jurassic Park-esq sequence that was kinda neat where poor construction workers are dragged off and killed by an "unknown" assailant... except that you already know that there's a vampire running around by this point so any suspension is lost there. And I gave half a point for a scene where Barnabas kills a group of hippies... because I'll confess I actually chuckled at that part, but I don't think it was supposed to be as funny as I found it.
Yeah, my end verdict is to only see this movie if you're a masochist like I am.
It doesn't help. Look at Resident Evil. The main characters are side characters and while the first film was an okay idea as a stand alone story. Moving it into the known universe has just made me wish it to die...or at least Alice... at first. Now I just want the whole thing to die. THIS is something that needs a reboot...or just to not exist.
Comments
I agree 100%. Everybody seems to be raving about Joss Whedon's 'The Cabin In The Woods'. Even though I find the premise intriguing, I flat out refuse to watch it on the grounds that Whedon brutally raped the 'Alien' franchise and dragged its once glorious self through the mud.
FUCK WHEDON
FUCK ANDERSON
FUCK THE BROTHERS STRAUSE
Hell have no Fiorna-'Fury'-161 like an 'Alien' fan scorned.
Ditto. In all honesty, it annoys me no small amount that overblown popcorn-munching flicks are so adored by the masses and are endlessly discussed within film forums. I couldn't care less about such movies and I completely fail to understand their appeal. EXPLOSIONS!!! Big whoop! Give me character development and a subtle approach any day of the week.
Sooo... no Firefly/Serenity fans?
Even though I was not swept away by the Avengers myself, it's got both.
I'm sorry, but there is nothing even remotely subtle about
As for character development? Loki is where he as in the last movie, just performed better this time around(almost by default). Thor doesn't grow in any way whatsoever. Tony Stark spends the entire movie throwing out gags and ultimately acting like he's in an Iron Man movie that features these guys as part of the secondary cast, but the movie itself doesn't focus on actual character development on his part. Captain America gets EXTREMELY little time given that he's time-displaced by 50 years.
Hulk develops, but that's pretty much by default. He had nowhere to go but up. He got about half the development he should have gotten in his solo film, so he steals the show with his "I tried to shoot myself" bit. In fact, now that I think about it, the past tense in that statement pretty much embodies the Hulk's development. He seems like he's developed to us, the audience, but it's not due to anything that is happening in the movie. He has developed since his solo movie, but it was entirely during the events of some phantom Incredible Hulk 2 that we never saw.
Hulk has a small arc of accepting 'the other guy' inside himself, which concludes with the the security guy conversation.
Thor doesn't have a character arc in the movie, yes. Neither do Black Widow and Hawkeye, but the two do have nice character moments which delve deeper into who they really are.
Captain America's got signs of what could be a character arc, but is never fully played out. Supposedly there's 30 minutes of deleted footage most of which focus on Captain America. Maybe that's why. Though, to be honest, Captain America is an extremely boring character, the only way to make him a little bit more interesting is to challenge his 'patriotism' and all the goody-two-shoes characteristics and whatnot. Which kinda happens in the movie but is not exactly delved too deep into, so he doesn't really have any character development and is still kinda 'meh'
Avengers is not a king of subtlety, but it does have a lot of subtle moments.
I totally agree with your score.
I also liked that Tony was willing to sacrifice himself for the greater good. Stark pre-Iron Man 2 would not have done that.
Poor Coulson.
Wow! Disliking something that's extremely popular is hardly tantamount to trying to "fit in" or "be cool", nor is it an attempt to be "alternative". It's entirely possible for somebody to genuinely dislike something that the general masses adore; do you enjoy listening to 'The Spice Girls'? If not, then you're a terrible hypocrite.
You still need to apologize for Tom Green. Or at least punch him in his stupid moose-humping face.
There are a lot of things you can think about my thoughts on The Avengers. You can think they're wrong. You can think they're poorly thought out. You can think they use poor methodology, are missing core points, that they are based on unfair biases or perceptions or unrealistic expectations. You can think I thought too much or too little. There are a lot of things you can disagree with my thoughts on this matter that wouldn't leave me feeling personally slighted. There are a lot of ways you could go about this which wouldn't emotionally hurt.
This is not one of those.
Yes, I am a person who desperately wants to be liked. Disliking things that are widely enjoyed is nowhere close to being the likability magnet it is portrayed to be. I get shit for almost everything I enjoy and even more shit for the things I don't. The number of people who give me shit about trying to be cool for shit like this far outnumber the people who think I'm "cool" for going against the grain. This is partly because I get shit from everyone from my family to my closest friends to complete strangers for my thoughts and opinions, but mostly because there honestly isn't anyone who has come to think I'm cool for any sort of perceived unrestrained individuality. Fuck, of everyone I know, you are probably the closest person to that sort of thing, if only because you're the only person I've known who has consistently listened to me go off on these odd and obscure things that I enjoy in an engaged way.
This is not something I enjoy doing. I don't like feeling that I don't understand what people see in popular things that makes them amazing. I don't like that there's a communal euphoria that I simply cannot fully participate in. I don't like that I seem to constantly be drifting away from just about everyone I know because my search for things I can truly and deeply enjoy leads me farther and farther away from actual people. I don't like that every time I even graze the topic of movies with my parents, I get everything from "Why do they charge the same as they do for a movie where they didn't exclude the sound and color?" to "Why can't you just like normal movies made here where people speak english?". I don't like that when I go on opening day to see a movie I've been excited about for months, I am often finding myself alone, in an empty theater. I don't like that whenever I talk about a movie that I like, people feel it's perfectly okay to say it looks weird and stupid and that there's something wrong with people who could possibly enjoy a thing like that, but if I dare to take something that I have actually seen that is fairly popular and make even the slightest negative remark about it, even if I actually enjoyed the overall experience, suddenly I've committed some sort of crime or something is wrong with me or I'm pulling some sort of fucking con. I don't like that it is like pulling teeth to get my family to see a movie that I've been excited about for months with me on my birthday, that came out on my birthday. I don't like that, when they cave and watch this film with me, I then get all sorts of shit for it after the movie is over. I don't like that I still get shit over it. I don't like that while that film was my favorite of the past year, that it filled me with the sort of joy I haven't felt in a movie theater in years, I ultimately wish that I hadn't tried to share it with my family because it has frankly been entirely hurtful in the long run. I don't like that, as the son of divorced parents, one of the few things they agree on is that I should "shut up and enjoy normal movies."
Disparaging my opinions on The Avengers is perfectly fine. Disparaging my resolve, telling me that I've caved to some sort of pressure to be liked rather than being anything close to genuine, that hits me where it hurts the most. Because yes, I desperately want approval, yes I desperately wish that more people would like me, yes I wish there was some easy and well carved-out niche that I could insert myself into so that I could be liked. That is the force that makes it extremely hard to feel like I should, like I can, actually express my thoughts on not only this movie but any number of others.
The desire to be liked is what pushes me to follow my parents' advice and "just shut up and enjoy normal movies." I can't say that my opinion is "right", I can't say that it's smart, and I can't say that I arrived at it without ever hitting some sort of weird mental roadblock along the way, not with any sort of certainty. I can't even say with any certainty that there isn't something wrong with my brain, that I'm not messed up emotionally, that I relate to things the way normal people do. I can't say that I truly understand or know anything about movies at all, I can't say that I respect my own thoughts and opinions, I can't say that I don't often find myself falling into a deep and depressed emotional state because after being told over and over and over again by so many people that not only are my thoughts weird, stupid, or even outright wrong, but that they're also opinions that I can't actually have and that instead I must be parroting them out to further some sort of long-game end goal, that eventually I start to believe that something there is right and that there is something deeply and truly wrong with me that needs to be fixed.
The only thing I can say entirely for certain is that if I was acting in a way that coincided with the end goal of being liked at the cost of my own integrity, this is not what I would be doing.
The popularity comment was aimed at Johro and Davies, but that didn't come through, so it doesn't really matter. I'm just saying it because- it was. It was a stupid comment, and I should be the last person to make it. But this is the first movie I can think of- outside of the first Pirates movie- where it truly baffles me that anyone can hate it because of the fact that so many don't. This isn't like Transformers where most people with a brain admit it's tacky and tasteless and awful, or Avatar where some people hate it because it's a ripoff trying to look original. I'm not making the argument that it's good because it's popular. I'm making the argument that thinking people have agreed on its merits. This is more akin to Alien and Raiders where people are calling this movie a classic, and meaning it with conviction. I read one guy say this movie replaced Raiders on his list of favorite movies. It's fine to hate it, yeah, but doing so baffles me in light of all of this. Nobody ever replaced Raiders with Transformers or Avatar. NOBODY. It feels like there's no real rhyme or reason to the hate. The only real solid arguments I've really seen are "Joss Whedon sucks" and "It's just a dumb popcorn movie", neither of which cut it with me. So all that I am left with is "trying to be cool", "trying to be popular", or "I can't understand why this person doesn't like this because I haven't seen them give another reason". I admit I wouldn't replace Raiders with Avengers, and I don't agree with that, but the fact that someone did it puts this movie on a whole nother level than truly dumb popcorn movies like Transformers and GI Joe and Expendables. If it really is stupid and terrible and I'm wrong, fine. That also means the entire world has gone literally mad.
Dashing, I don't think you're saying anything to be popular, for the reasons you listed. Of course I know better. I should have made this clearer. It's my fault. My post was acting out of anger, over-emotion, and frustration like many of my posts tend to. I was frustrated with Davies and Johro, and I was mad at you. I came on here and read your post, and immediately I see the same generalizations I tried to argue against and put to rest. Generalizations I made good arguments against. Logical arguments. I had a logical stance, and you entirely ignored it. We already talked about how I've felt people ignore my opinions and don't give a shit about my stances. Well, to me, this was just another instance of that. I got pissed. I mean, I don't know why you would listen to me- my name doesn't begin and end with a D. Hell, you do listen to me, but you don't have to agree with me. It's when my stance is perfectly logical that I can not understand it in any way, shape, or form.
You know I trust your opinions on EVERYTHING. If I bug you so much with so much shitty stuff all the time, it's only because I want your opinion and reaction on everything. Because I expect something worthwhile from you no matter what it is. I know you can't always have all the answers, and I know I get frustrated with you when you don't. I even LOOK UP TO YOU, even though I know you could never agree with such a sentiment. I always have. But that doesn't mean when I think you're wrong I'm going to lay down in your bed. I'm going to fight you tooth and nail. Well, fight is the wrong word. I'm going to argue your stance. I'm not always going to agree with you. You know this and you've never wanted it any other way. At the least I give everything you tell me about the benefit of the doubt and I enjoy most of it because there's always meaning and value behind it. That by itself shows that I respect you and value your opinions. We just had a discussion about how we're both alienated at times for our opinions, you much moreso than me on every level, a couple of days ago. I'm sorry I ruined that comradery with this. I'm sorry I hurt your feelings, especially because you of all people don't need that shit in your life. You're one of the most valuable friends I have- yeah I weighed you, you're extremely valuable. I wouldn't have the drive to explore things no one else would (Shaw Brothers silent era) if it wasn't for you. You're not a freak. You're passionate. Your parents are the worst kind of bigots. They stifle your passion for knowledge and experience with their shitty sentiments. I didn't really want to be in that category. Retro's wrong, I don't dangle my sausage over the bear cage, I leap into it headfirst slathered in blood and animal viscera. But it shouldn't come as any surprise. Burning bridges, losing friendships, and betraying people is what I've always been best at.
(Well apart from the Hulk ones I guess)
People who go beyond that level of fandom, or aren't all that interested at all are going to nitpick at it.
(For totally different reasons of course!)
This discussions reminds me that I need to watch Firefly.
(Best friend keeps bugging me about it. I'm more of a surreal/absurdist comedy fan (Young Ones, Red Dwarf, The League of Gentlemen) than a science fiction fan, so I kind of keep putting it off to watch other things)
Here's the nitpicks I had with Avengers:
- Thor just shows up, and is given a brief one-line explanation of how he got around the whole 'no more travel between worlds' thing from his own movie. That was weak and needed FAR more explanation.
- The talking section in the middle of the movie goes on too long. I get why it's there, it just needs to be shorter.
- CAPTAIN AMERICA'S OUTFIT LOOKS SILLY. It's the red and white around the waist that ruins it. Couldn't they put those colours on his arms or something? Ugh.
- Who the hell are the [sic] Chitari? Why are they here? How come Loki's working with them? EXPLAIN!
- 'And We All Fall Down' at the end. Weak, though I do understand why they did it. Still weak though.
- Stark seemed a little too bummed out about Coulson
- The female waitress got a fraction too much screen time. I dunno, maybe that's just me.
- Hulk seemed to just turn up wherever the plot demanded. Running through a building? Jumping onto Stark Tower? How'd he get there? Why? Sure, they were great scenes, but there's no real logic behind them.
- Is it just me, or did Cap do very little in this film? Also, isn't this shortly after he wakes up? So he's thrust into this new world and everything's different to him? Weird that wasn't explored. Maybe in CapAm 2.
- Everything Iron Man says is a one-liner. They get old.
- For being the Trickster God, Loki goes down in a pretty undignified way.
- No War Machine? I get he's not an Avenger, but still... a mention of him would've been nice.
- Surely instead of Galaga it should have been... Space Invaders? Eh? Eh?
Random things I liked about the movie:
- The Hulk was voiced by Lou Ferrigno. Yes, yes, a thousand times YES.
- Brief mention of Jane Foster. Nice touch there. Shame Thor didn't call her or anything, but still nice.
- Hawkeye
- ...I'm sure there's more, but I can't think of them of the top of my head.
So yeah, it's a good film, no doubt about that, and it's easily one of the best Superhero films we've had in years, but it's not perfect.
I've never read ANY of the comics and I enjoyed Avengers immensely. Though, I probably liked it for different reasons than a comic book fan would like it.
Essentially, I enjoy action movies/popcorn flicks or whatever when they are done well. I loathe straight-up action as it gets dull after awhile, but what I crave is an action movie where I feel immersed in it because I have some sort of attachment to the characters. Also humor. It's why my favorite action-y movies have always had good characterization and humor: Indiana Jones, Pirates of the Caribbean, original Star Wars, Die Hard...
Now Dashing, you mentioned no real character arcs. I agree with you partially. There wasn't a ton of character development in this film, but then again it wasn't particularly needed for the film. Most of the characters had their major character arcs in their solo films.
I did spot a few moments, though. We've got Captain America going from the guy who didn't understand what was going on to
I would hesitate to call these true arcs, but with so many main characters, having true arcs would have made this movie immensely long.
As to Darth Marsden, as a non-comic book fan, I got from the movie that the reason the
Captain america in the comics was the leader of the avengers but that had to be changed for this film; in the comics he's only frozen for 20 years. He's frozen in the mid 40's and unthawed in the mid 60's. He also starts fighting crime again upon being thawed prior to the avengers starting. In the current series he's displaced by 70 years and his next mission IS the avengers. He's still playing caveman in this film. Iron man is also the most experienced, he's had 2 films under his belt. Thor is a norse god who's only been to earth once, the Hulk can't even string a sentence together let alone lead.
This film is essentially a sequel for all the characters. And specifically one where the characters have developed between films. Banner now has the ability to deliberately hulk out (something brief from the first film). Cap is getting acclimated and Thor had only spent half a film in the real world. Iron Man does have the important arc of acting humble.
It was important to develop the strength of the alter egos; thor doesn't have one, he's the same person the entire time. But Tony Stark and Bruce Banner are both geniuses and use their intelligence together. Steve Rogers is pretty much the same as his alter ego minus the shield.
Also,
Also, can I just say that I did enjoy most of the trailers that showed before The Avengers in my town? Frankenweenie looks to be the typical Tim Burton-creepshow fare, but it IS also a story he's been wanting to tell again in a longer fashion. G.I. Joe 2...well, I didn't see the first one, and well...this trailer didn't really make me want to see the second either. The Expendables 2...another sequel I haven't seen the first movie yet, but it definitely looks like it's going to be a stupid, yet fun, action flick. Pixar's Brave...wow. I really like that Pixar is trying to show that it can do more than just Toy Story and Cars and Finding Nemo. Brave looks to be a lot of fun, and who knows? Maybe Billy Connolly's character will live through this one. The Amazing Spider-Man's trailer was...well, amazing. I was dead-set on hating this movie from the first time they said they were rebooting the franchise, but the trailers have really turned me around. My only gripe is...well, isn't the point of a secret identity supposed to be that it's a SECRET? And The Dark Knight Rises, of course. Wow. Definitely getting a sense that they're going to bash it into our heads that this is Nolan/Bale's LAST BATMAN MOVIE.
Maybe he'll be back as a robot.
Now imagine nearly two hours of that. It may sound like it's too much, but trust me - it's hilarious. 10/10.
(It's on FanEdit dot something if you want to grab it. No actual links - pretty sure that's against the rules)
Serious spoilers, but I doubt anyone cares about this movie, so I'm not going to bother with tags.
Good God, this movie was awful. I don't know why I went to go see it. I KNEW it would be awful and I still went to go see it. The plot seemed to be constructed simply to string together a series of scenes that had interesting special effects, with several bits of senseless destruction that I didn't even understand. There was some sort of thing about rebuilding the family business, but neither Barnabas nor the family seemed to know the first thing about setting up a business and we didn't really get to see much of that anyways because the plot seemed to revolve instead about a romance that didn't even make sense!
Seriously, we've got absolutely no motivation for this romance except that the girl kinda looks like the girl he used to be in love with. But we don't know why he was in love with the original girl so the whole thing seems kinda trivial. Neither the girl nor Barnabas ever shows anything that could remotely be construed as love. He even nearly forgets to save her at the end, preferring to cause senseless destruction and show no emotion at all while doing so. It was kinda like bad Twilight. Which shows how awful the love story was. I predict a new meme, Twilight: still a better love story than Dark Shadows.
There's also some sort of plotline where there's this bad father and his crazy son... but then the father just up and leaves so I guess that's the end of that plot? And there seems to be no real reason for Helen Bonham Carter. She's supposed to help psychoanalyze the kid and the family seems to spend a lot of money for her to do that, but all she ever seems to do is stagger around drunk when she isn't trying to seduce Barnabas. Or steal his blood. There was an obvious attempt at a sequel here, but I doubt anyone would ever go back for seconds on this.
Oh, and there's the girl stereotypical teen who acts like how everyone feels that stereotypical teen girls act. Somehow she's a werewolf because she was bitten as a baby... and how did her mother not know this? HOW? Wouldn't you notice if your infant turned into a miniature monster every full moon or something? Maybe she's just really unobservant or something.
Basically, the only reason I didn't give it a zero was because it was a fairly pretty movie and the first ten minutes or so were okay. There was a Jurassic Park-esq sequence that was kinda neat where poor construction workers are dragged off and killed by an "unknown" assailant... except that you already know that there's a vampire running around by this point so any suspension is lost there. And I gave half a point for a scene where Barnabas kills a group of hippies... because I'll confess I actually chuckled at that part, but I don't think it was supposed to be as funny as I found it.
Yeah, my end verdict is to only see this movie if you're a masochist like I am.
The reason is Tim Burton and a wedding ring.
Well, yeah, but they could have disguised it slightly better. At least give her something to do that makes sense.
[Starts scribbling stuff down]
Celine Dion is making me melt!!
One of the best action adventure-horror films I've seen since Tremors, Evil Dead 2-3, and The Blood and Ice Cream Duology.
100%- believe.