Basically, it's now canon that a good third of the Zelda series takes place in a timeline branch where you play Ocarina of Time until you become adult Link, then you get a Game Over and give up.
See, that's the issue. Ganon needed to be imprisoned with the united Triforce.
Counterargument: Before I go into this, I should say that as more information from Hyrule Historia is being translated, this branch of the timeline generally coming to be understood as Ganon defeating Link during the final battle of Ocarina of Time, which means Sheik has been revealed as Zelda, and she is currently trapped, either in a ring of fire, or more likely, in a crystal.
Now, if Ganon had just killed Link and taken the Triforce of Courage from him, it's highly doubtful that Zelda would survive him taking the Triforce of Wisdom. She serves no use to him beyond her Triforce piece, and Ganondorf is a lot less merciful in Ocarina of Time than he is in The Wind Waker. So at this point, it's difficult to assume that Zelda is not dead, and if she is alive, then Ganondorf still has her.
Now, how many Sages sealed Ganon away at the end of the Imprisoning War? Seven.
Besides, the Triforce is sort of flighty. Ganon may have endured the centuries between Ocarina of Time and A Link to the Past, but Link and Zelda would've died eventually after imprisoning him. Now, The Wind Waker presents us with two important facts: a bearer of the Triforce will be separated from their Triforce part when they leave Hyrule, and it didn't just decide to break itself into eight pieces and hide, because someone had to know where it was in order to draw up the Triforce Charts. The game also shows us the Triforce leaving after being wished upon.
So knowing that the Triforce will separate from a person when they leave Hyrule (and dying is definitely a form of leaving Hyrule), and that it's capable of traveling to a new location by itself (remember, it also does this in the Oracle games), is it not too much of a leap to say that the Triforce is capable of returning to the Sacred Realm under the right conditions? And if this should happen while Ganondorf is imprisoned there...
Or, if you don't like that, I present you with this theory. Ganon has proven multiple times that placing a permanent seal on him is pretty much impossible. He nearly escaped imprisonment in A Link to the Past (and would've gotten away with it if it wasn't for that meddling kid), he escaped twice in The Wind Waker (once from the sealed Sacred Realm, once from sealed Hyrule), and he rode Zant out of his imprisonment in the Twilight Realm in Twilight Princess.
Now, it's inarguable that there's gaps in the timeline that we've never heard of or even considered, and there always will be until the day they stop making Zelda games. Given Ganon's escape record, it's entirely possible that Ganon was imprisoned by Link and the Sages, escaped, captured the other two Triforce pieces*, and was imprisoned by the Knights of Hyrule and the next group of Sages.
*And watch me fuck the timeline up even further: This is entirely possible in yet another timeline fork in which Link is defeated...in the Wind Waker. If the King of Hyrule hadn't touched the Triforce in time, Link would've been defeated, the Great Sea would've been drained, and now we have Ganondorf in Hyrule, with the complete Triforce.
That said, I know that this is crap because Link's grandmother explicitly states that the people on the Great Sea have become peaceful. It's highly unlikely that enough people on the Great Sea are competent enough with weapons to form the Knights of Hyrule. So no, The Wind Waker actually couldn't have filled that gap.
It occurs to me that when Zelda sent Link back in time on OOT, either the Triforce of Courage went back with him, or else it stayed in the future.
How does this affect events in the timeline?
[edit:]Actually, there's already a Triforce of Courage in the past that Link hasn't obtained yet, so it would have stayed in the future. If it left Link when Zelda sent him back, where did it go? I don't recall if the post-OOT-future timeline has Ganon getting it, but I didn't think so.
I'm not sure if this dead-Link timeline should be considered canon. People from Nintendo have gone on record before and said things that make no sense regarding the timeline before. Why couldn't someone also then write something down and not know that the heck they're talking about either?
To be honest, I think the canon material should be the games (and included manuals). It's like Star Trek: the only things canon in Star Trek are the shows and movies, and anything added outside of those is not.
It is PROVEN that Link took the Triforce of Courage back in time with him at the end of Ocarina of Time.
And GuruGuru, it is not proven that when the bearer of the Triforce dies, it automatically leaves them. The Triforce of Wisdom was passed down through the bloodline in The Wind Waker. Both Wisdom and Courage were passed down in Twilight Princess. It is also not a fact that a bearer must die in order to be relieved of their piece of the Triforce. This was made obvious by The Wind Waker.
Could divine intervention count as a "change" worthy of the timeline split? What if the "Link dies" timeline is the original timeline, but something that we see happen in the game (even something like Link being placed with the Deku tree as a child) is the result of the Goddesses changing history after the fact? It'd be hard to confirm but I think it could be relevant, since I agree that every hypothetical death could make a new timeline but that doesn't seem to be the model at play here so there must be something more to that particular branch.
No. Then there would be two Triforces of Courage in the past's timeline, and none in the future's timeline.
Could just be that he goes back in time and gets the new timeline's ToC by virtue of his having earned it in the previous timeline. That seems similar enough to what happened with Ganondorf in TP if I'm remembering right.
According to Hyrule Historia, The Wind Waker and its sequels are the only games in the adult timeline. This would seem to suggest that the Triforce of Courage remained behind when Zelda sent Link back, and she's the one who broke it into eight and hid it.
And Shadowknight, The Wind Waker does not show the Triforce of Wisdom being passed down through the bloodline. What it does show is a chunk of it being handed down from mother to daughter for generations. As for Twilight Princess, I think it's pretty well established that a stray piece of the Triforce, when not currently held by someone, concealed, or united in the Sacred Realm, goes to the person destined to hold it, namely the Link of that era. Seeing as there's no evidence that most of the Links are related to each other (even Spirit Tracks Link isn't proven to be related to the Hero of Winds), it's highly unlikely that Twilight Princess Link had the Triforce because it was handed down in his bloodline.
Also, if you hadn't noticed, the word "Triforce" doesn't appear in Twilight Princess.
So I just reached the first Howling Stone in Twilight Princess, and it sort of made me think of an interesting question. If someone were to play the Song of Healing for Wolf Link* using the Ocarina of Time, what would happen?
*When he's stuck in wolf form from entering the Twilight, I mean, though I suppose the question could also go for when he's stuck in wolf form because of the Shadow Crystal.
So I just reached the first Howling Stone in Twilight Princess, and it sort of made me think of an interesting question. If someone were to play the Song of Healing for Wolf Link* using the Ocarina of Time, what would happen?
*When he's stuck in wolf form from entering the Twilight, I mean, though I suppose the question could also go for when he's stuck in wolf form because of the Shadow Crystal.
Hmmm...would it turn into a mask, you mean? Possible, but Link possessing the Triforce of Courage is what turned him into a wolf instead of a spirit in the first place.
Really, there's plenty of transformation curses to choose from throughout the series. There's Bunny Link and everyone else in the Dark World in ALttP, raccoon Tarin in Link's Awakening, the Great Fairy of the seas (cursed into an Octorok) in Oracle of Ages, the skeleton pirates in the Oracle games, and possessed Linebeck in Phantom Hourglass. And Twilight Princess has Wolf Link, Midna, the Shadow Beasts, and Darbus/Fyrus, just off the top of my head.
I do think that eventually Nintendo will cave [with regard to voice acting] when it comes to Zelda. I personally think that the way to go would be to have "gibberish" voice acting, ie. the characters are speaking Hylian, that way we still have the text and they won't have to worry about fitting the translation to "lip flaps".
Meh, that was mildly annoying in Animal Crossing and it would be massively annoying in Zelda. I'm against speech of any kind, but I'd much prefer normal voice acting over gibberish.
Actually, Nintendo has already used "gibberish voice acting" in Zelda games, as they did with Midna in Twilight Princess.
Actually, Nintendo has already used "gibberish voice acting" in Zelda games, as they did with Midna in Twilight Princess.
Well, yeah, but that's different, somehow. For Midna, it worked, probably because it fit with her being a cute little imp. If they did it with anybody else (Zelda, for example), it would be annoying. I prefer the little bits of vocalization they do now.
I read as far as "Ocarina of Time isn't even a good Zelda game" and stopped. I don't feel that Ocarina of Time is the greatest game ever, or even the greatest Zelda game ever, but I do feel that it's a very good Zelda game, and anybody who feels the opposite of that has fundamentally different ideas than I do about what makes the series good.
And no, The Legend of Zelda is not the best Zelda game. It laid down the groundwork, but I don't feel it's aged particularly well.
What I gather from the rest of the article is that I can't agree with this guy on any level about what would make a good Zelda game. I don't want a Zelda that's "harder to survive". I want a goddamn plot. And I want a world that's expressive, and expansive enough to be fun but not so expansive as to get in the way of the rest of the game. Yes, an expansive world can be great in some games, but this is not The Elder Scrolls, nor should it be.
I just disagree with this guy so fundamentally on every level, it just pisses me off to read his article.
See, I haven't agreed with everything you've said GuruGuru, but I do agree with you about that guy's article. I guess he has a different belief of what Zelda should be. Yes, the first game laid the groundwork. I feel that it was perfected in A Link to the Past.
I personally enjoy each story separately for what they are. Trying to fit them in continuity, to me, is just asking for rage fights and headaches. Yes, there is a basic continuity, but getting into the temporal mechanics of it is almost as bad as time travel in Star Trek.
For me, I judge the games based on: A) Am I enjoying the story without having to think about where it fits in? Am I enjoying the subtle(and sometimes not-so-subtle) hints to where it belongs, as well as references to the other games? and most importantly, C) AM I HAVING FUN?!
After that, then I look at dungeon count, difficulty, characterizations, etc. The only time a dungeon count has soured me against a game was Wind Waker. And to be fair, that's not even my biggest problem with the game. My biggest problem was the Triforce quest because the amount of work and rupees involved made it seem like a sidequest, when it was absolutely necessary to complete the game.
I think the guy wants Zelda to be an Elder Scrolls game. Also getting invested in Zelda canon is (as shadowknight said) asking for trouble, the developers have said they don't really care about it, so why should you?
I think the guy wants Zelda to be an Elder Scrolls game. Also getting invested in Zelda canon is (as shadowknight said) asking for trouble, the developers have said they don't really care about it, so why should you?
Zelda is one of those games where the developers care more for the gameplay functions before they work on the story. And in my opinion, it's worked for them for 25 years.
I just finished the Cave of Ordeals. Fawful can vouch for it. It cost me a bottle of Rare Chu Jelly, a bottle of Fairy Tears, a fairy, and the entire 1000 rupee wallet to use the Magic Armor. I finished with less than a full heart and one fairy (8 hearts) left.
A Japanese figurine company called Max Factory is creating a Figma figure of Link from Skyward Sword.
If my past experiences with Figma figures is any indication, I expect Link to come with, naturally, the Hylian Shield and Master Sword, alternate faces with different expressions, and probably a couple of other items from Skyward Sword. I'm hoping that he comes with the Goddess Sword in addition to the Master Sword.
A Japanese figurine company called Max Factory is creating a Figma figure of Link from Skyward Sword.
If my past experiences with Figma figures is any indication, I expect Link to come with, naturally, the Hylian Shield and Master Sword, alternate faces with different expressions, and probably a couple of other items from Skyward Sword. I'm hoping that he comes with the Goddess Sword in addition to the Master Sword.
Can anyone point out to me what specific songs/games the first track on the Zelda 25th Anniversary CD pulls from? I recognize the Dark World theme at 5:08-6:30, but the rest of it, I can't say.
Aside from the first night, which I spent getting started in Skyloft, I've basically done a dungeon every other night. At this rate, if the rest of the game plays out the way I think it does, I should be on track to finish on Thursday night, with one night to spare before I go to the Symphony of the Goddess on Saturday.
And because I'm weird and actually wrote it down while I could still remember, here's my daily progress through Skyward Sword, plus what I'm expecting based on my very loose knowledge of the rest of the game.
3/21 - Skyloft. Saved just before heading to surface.
3/22 - Faron Woods. Saved just outside Skyview Temple.
3/23 - Skyview Temple. Saved just before heading to Eldin Volcano.
3/24 - Eldin Volcano. Saved just outside Earth Temple.
3/25 - Earth Temple and Lanayru Mines. Saved at entrance to Lanayru Desert.
3/26 - Lanayru Desert. Saved just outside Lanayru Mining Facility.
3/27 - Lanayru Mining Facility. Saved halfway through.
3/28 - Lanayru Mining Facility and Lake Floria. Saved outisde Ancient Cistern.
3/29 - Ancient Cistern and Lanayru Silent Realm. Saved outside Sea of Sand.
3/30 - Sea of Sand. Saved at entrance to Sandship.
3/31 - Sandship. Saved at Isle of Songs.
4/1 - Volcano Summit. Saved outside Fire Sanctuary.
4/2 - Fire Sanctuary. Saved after Levias/Bilocyte fight.
4/3 - Song of the Hero. Saved after getting song from Faron and Eldin.
4/4 - Song of the Hero and Sky Keep. Saved before final boss battle.
4/5 - Finale
Edit: Right on schedule. Finished the Volcano Summit tonight.
Comments
Counterargument: Before I go into this, I should say that as more information from Hyrule Historia is being translated, this branch of the timeline generally coming to be understood as Ganon defeating Link during the final battle of Ocarina of Time, which means Sheik has been revealed as Zelda, and she is currently trapped, either in a ring of fire, or more likely, in a crystal.
Now, if Ganon had just killed Link and taken the Triforce of Courage from him, it's highly doubtful that Zelda would survive him taking the Triforce of Wisdom. She serves no use to him beyond her Triforce piece, and Ganondorf is a lot less merciful in Ocarina of Time than he is in The Wind Waker. So at this point, it's difficult to assume that Zelda is not dead, and if she is alive, then Ganondorf still has her.
Now, how many Sages sealed Ganon away at the end of the Imprisoning War? Seven.
Besides, the Triforce is sort of flighty. Ganon may have endured the centuries between Ocarina of Time and A Link to the Past, but Link and Zelda would've died eventually after imprisoning him. Now, The Wind Waker presents us with two important facts: a bearer of the Triforce will be separated from their Triforce part when they leave Hyrule, and it didn't just decide to break itself into eight pieces and hide, because someone had to know where it was in order to draw up the Triforce Charts. The game also shows us the Triforce leaving after being wished upon.
So knowing that the Triforce will separate from a person when they leave Hyrule (and dying is definitely a form of leaving Hyrule), and that it's capable of traveling to a new location by itself (remember, it also does this in the Oracle games), is it not too much of a leap to say that the Triforce is capable of returning to the Sacred Realm under the right conditions? And if this should happen while Ganondorf is imprisoned there...
Or, if you don't like that, I present you with this theory. Ganon has proven multiple times that placing a permanent seal on him is pretty much impossible. He nearly escaped imprisonment in A Link to the Past (and would've gotten away with it if it wasn't for that meddling kid), he escaped twice in The Wind Waker (once from the sealed Sacred Realm, once from sealed Hyrule), and he rode Zant out of his imprisonment in the Twilight Realm in Twilight Princess.
Now, it's inarguable that there's gaps in the timeline that we've never heard of or even considered, and there always will be until the day they stop making Zelda games. Given Ganon's escape record, it's entirely possible that Ganon was imprisoned by Link and the Sages, escaped, captured the other two Triforce pieces*, and was imprisoned by the Knights of Hyrule and the next group of Sages.
*And watch me fuck the timeline up even further: This is entirely possible in yet another timeline fork in which Link is defeated...in the Wind Waker. If the King of Hyrule hadn't touched the Triforce in time, Link would've been defeated, the Great Sea would've been drained, and now we have Ganondorf in Hyrule, with the complete Triforce.
That said, I know that this is crap because Link's grandmother explicitly states that the people on the Great Sea have become peaceful. It's highly unlikely that enough people on the Great Sea are competent enough with weapons to form the Knights of Hyrule. So no, The Wind Waker actually couldn't have filled that gap.
How does this affect events in the timeline?
[edit:]Actually, there's already a Triforce of Courage in the past that Link hasn't obtained yet, so it would have stayed in the future. If it left Link when Zelda sent him back, where did it go? I don't recall if the post-OOT-future timeline has Ganon getting it, but I didn't think so.
I'm not sure if this dead-Link timeline should be considered canon. People from Nintendo have gone on record before and said things that make no sense regarding the timeline before. Why couldn't someone also then write something down and not know that the heck they're talking about either?
To be honest, I think the canon material should be the games (and included manuals). It's like Star Trek: the only things canon in Star Trek are the shows and movies, and anything added outside of those is not.
And GuruGuru, it is not proven that when the bearer of the Triforce dies, it automatically leaves them. The Triforce of Wisdom was passed down through the bloodline in The Wind Waker. Both Wisdom and Courage were passed down in Twilight Princess. It is also not a fact that a bearer must die in order to be relieved of their piece of the Triforce. This was made obvious by The Wind Waker.
No. Then there would be two Triforces of Courage in the past's timeline, and none in the future's timeline.
Could just be that he goes back in time and gets the new timeline's ToC by virtue of his having earned it in the previous timeline. That seems similar enough to what happened with Ganondorf in TP if I'm remembering right.
And Shadowknight, The Wind Waker does not show the Triforce of Wisdom being passed down through the bloodline. What it does show is a chunk of it being handed down from mother to daughter for generations. As for Twilight Princess, I think it's pretty well established that a stray piece of the Triforce, when not currently held by someone, concealed, or united in the Sacred Realm, goes to the person destined to hold it, namely the Link of that era. Seeing as there's no evidence that most of the Links are related to each other (even Spirit Tracks Link isn't proven to be related to the Hero of Winds), it's highly unlikely that Twilight Princess Link had the Triforce because it was handed down in his bloodline.
Also, if you hadn't noticed, the word "Triforce" doesn't appear in Twilight Princess.
Link had the Triforce of Courage when he went back in time.
It comes down to the old saying. Time travel screws up EVERYTHING.
*When he's stuck in wolf form from entering the Twilight, I mean, though I suppose the question could also go for when he's stuck in wolf form because of the Shadow Crystal.
Hmmm...would it turn into a mask, you mean? Possible, but Link possessing the Triforce of Courage is what turned him into a wolf instead of a spirit in the first place.
I wondered this instead.
Only because of his status as one of the Goddess's "Chosen Ones". Otherwise, he would've turned into a spirit like everyone else did.
Actually, Nintendo has already used "gibberish voice acting" in Zelda games, as they did with Midna in Twilight Princess.
Well, yeah, but that's different, somehow. For Midna, it worked, probably because it fit with her being a cute little imp. If they did it with anybody else (Zelda, for example), it would be annoying. I prefer the little bits of vocalization they do now.
I read as far as "Ocarina of Time isn't even a good Zelda game" and stopped. I don't feel that Ocarina of Time is the greatest game ever, or even the greatest Zelda game ever, but I do feel that it's a very good Zelda game, and anybody who feels the opposite of that has fundamentally different ideas than I do about what makes the series good.
And no, The Legend of Zelda is not the best Zelda game. It laid down the groundwork, but I don't feel it's aged particularly well.
What I gather from the rest of the article is that I can't agree with this guy on any level about what would make a good Zelda game. I don't want a Zelda that's "harder to survive". I want a goddamn plot. And I want a world that's expressive, and expansive enough to be fun but not so expansive as to get in the way of the rest of the game. Yes, an expansive world can be great in some games, but this is not The Elder Scrolls, nor should it be.
I just disagree with this guy so fundamentally on every level, it just pisses me off to read his article.
I personally enjoy each story separately for what they are. Trying to fit them in continuity, to me, is just asking for rage fights and headaches. Yes, there is a basic continuity, but getting into the temporal mechanics of it is almost as bad as time travel in Star Trek.
For me, I judge the games based on: A) Am I enjoying the story without having to think about where it fits in?
After that, then I look at dungeon count, difficulty, characterizations, etc. The only time a dungeon count has soured me against a game was Wind Waker. And to be fair, that's not even my biggest problem with the game. My biggest problem was the Triforce quest because the amount of work and rupees involved made it seem like a sidequest, when it was absolutely necessary to complete the game.
Zelda is one of those games where the developers care more for the gameplay functions before they work on the story. And in my opinion, it's worked for them for 25 years.
Now I'm going to turn off my Wii and go to bed.
A Japanese figurine company called Max Factory is creating a Figma figure of Link from Skyward Sword.
If my past experiences with Figma figures is any indication, I expect Link to come with, naturally, the Hylian Shield and Master Sword, alternate faces with different expressions, and probably a couple of other items from Skyward Sword. I'm hoping that he comes with the Goddess Sword in addition to the Master Sword.
It would appear that somebody made Link sprites out of Abobo from Double Dragon. Now the question is "Why in the world is that?".
Fixed to show a better picture...
and I'd buy it. I really would. Seriously.
Also, I finished Spirit Tracks last night, so I'll finally be starting Skyward Sword later tonight.
Edit: Rectified! Now it's back to back with The Longest Journey soundtrack.
Related, everyone must play this:
http://abobosbigadventure.com/fullgame.php
Good luck with that Guru!
*remembers that his Wii is no longer functioning*:(:(:(
Aside from the first night, which I spent getting started in Skyloft, I've basically done a dungeon every other night. At this rate, if the rest of the game plays out the way I think it does, I should be on track to finish on Thursday night, with one night to spare before I go to the Symphony of the Goddess on Saturday.
And because I'm weird and actually wrote it down while I could still remember, here's my daily progress through Skyward Sword, plus what I'm expecting based on my very loose knowledge of the rest of the game.
3/21 - Skyloft. Saved just before heading to surface.
3/22 - Faron Woods. Saved just outside Skyview Temple.
3/23 - Skyview Temple. Saved just before heading to Eldin Volcano.
3/24 - Eldin Volcano. Saved just outside Earth Temple.
3/25 - Earth Temple and Lanayru Mines. Saved at entrance to Lanayru Desert.
3/26 - Lanayru Desert. Saved just outside Lanayru Mining Facility.
3/27 - Lanayru Mining Facility. Saved halfway through.
3/28 - Lanayru Mining Facility and Lake Floria. Saved outisde Ancient Cistern.
3/29 - Ancient Cistern and Lanayru Silent Realm. Saved outside Sea of Sand.
3/30 - Sea of Sand. Saved at entrance to Sandship.
3/31 - Sandship. Saved at Isle of Songs.
4/1 - Volcano Summit. Saved outside Fire Sanctuary.
4/2 - Fire Sanctuary. Saved after Levias/Bilocyte fight.
4/3 - Song of the Hero. Saved after getting song from Faron and Eldin.
4/4 - Song of the Hero and Sky Keep. Saved before final boss battle.
4/5 - Finale
Edit: Right on schedule. Finished the Volcano Summit tonight.